Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[-Grey-]

Too many walls of fluff. -_-

Something needs to happen.

VOTE: -Grey-

OMG, I self-voted! How scummy is that?!

[PenguinPower]

Vote Count 1.06

mastina

(3): mhsmith0, oldwino, DogWatch

oldwino

(2): aa-dono, mastina

-Grey-

(2): RadiantCowbells, -Grey-

Not Voting

: JustDanceWorld, Ulti
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-03-15 06:05:00)

[-Grey-]

mine?

All yours!

[oldwino]

Too many walls of fluff. -_-

Something needs to happen.

VOTE: -Grey-

OMG, I self-voted! How scummy is that?!

So, it's my second game, anywhere, ever, and in my first game a newbie asked about self-voting and was told that that's very scummy, almost 100% scummy, because it can't do town any good at all. So I'll assume you are one of the two scum until you at least argue to the contrary. If you are town, couldn't you unfluff the game in a more productive way? How is self-voting supposed to stimulate discussion and especially scum hunting?

[-Grey-]

Too many walls of fluff. -_-

Something needs to happen.

VOTE: -Grey-

OMG, I self-voted! How scummy is that?!

So, it's my second game, anywhere, ever, and in my first game a newbie asked about self-voting and was told that that's very scummy, almost 100% scummy, because it can't do town any good at all. So I'll assume you are one of the two scum until you at least argue to the contrary. If you are town, couldn't you unfluff the game in a more productive way? How is self-voting supposed to stimulate discussion and especially scum hunting?

If I'm scum, why aren't you voting me?

If I'm scum, what do I hope to accomplish by voting myself when I am not under pressure?

[aa-dono]

@-Grey- what do you think of oldwino or DogWatch?

[-Grey-]

@-Grey- what do you think of oldwino or DogWatch?

Might be more productive to wait until my interaction with oldwino to end before asking me about my opinion on him.

[aa-dono]

@-Grey- what do you think of oldwino or DogWatch?

Might be more productive to wait until my interaction with oldwino to end before asking me about my opinion on him.

Ok...

If I'm scum, what do I hope to accomplish by voting myself when I am not under pressure?

Isn't it the best time to vote yourself when you're not under pressure?
Makes you look like you're not afraid of pressure, which is supposed to be a town trait.


[Going to sleep - I'm sorry my timezone is gekk (can't think of the right vocab) ]

[-Grey-]

@-Grey- what do you think of oldwino or DogWatch?

Might be more productive to wait until my interaction with oldwino to end before asking me about my opinion on him.

Ok...

If I'm scum, what do I hope to accomplish by voting myself when I am not under pressure?

Isn't it the best time to vote yourself when you're not under pressure?
Makes you look like you're not afraid of pressure, which is supposed to be a town trait.


[Going to sleep - I'm sorry my timezone is gekk (can't think of the right vocab) ]

VOTE: aa-domo

Why are you determined to interfere in my interactions with oldwino?

[oldwino]

I was puzzled why you would vote yourself, especially since the only scummy reason I've heard of is to shut off debate so you or your scum partner don't reveal anything else through continued discussion, and that would be a hammer vote, not an early vote. After some thought, I think you are either trying to stimulate some discussion, which you are doing with me, or as aa noted, or maybe to deflect suspicion of yourself because you are not under any pressure right now. Or, maybe, you're trying to redirect the discussion to stop the (now pointless, I think) debate between you and RC.

I am not voting you because I think you're just messing with us and trying to stimulate discussion. And, I still think Mastina is the most scummy right now because of her weak reasons for reading me as scum. If I'm leaning scum on you, it's because I think you're misrepresenting RC's posts, trying to make her look scummy when overall, I think she's leaning town.

[-Grey-]

If I'm leaning scum on you, it's because I think you're misrepresenting RC's posts, trying to make her look scummy when overall, I think she's leaning town.

You're not one to call me out for misrepresenting someone when you yourself are misrepping his gender.

[-Grey-]

After some thought, I think you are either trying to stimulate some discussion, which you are doing with me, or as aa noted, or maybe to deflect suspicion of yourself because you are not under any pressure right now. Or, maybe, you're trying to redirect the discussion to stop the (now pointless, I think) debate between you and RC.

Which is it?

Or do you plan on building a house on that fence you're sitting on?

[mhsmith0]

Hey um i just read the 7 page note for the 1st day (well most of it )
and Im here to claim BP
and Im not just how to scum read people yet despite playing 1.5 games before on this site ( I mostly just random vote )

just to make sure, this is a hard claim of bulletproof? It's important because if someone counter-claims you, "I was just messing around" is not an ok excuse.

[mhsmith0]

However, I think Mastina's scum read on me, only because I commented on the back and forth, maybe some bad blood between rc and grey, is weak.

It's funny that you think that's the basis of my scumread on you--it's not.

I mean, you could always just explain it in a clearer manner than you've chosen to do.

[mhsmith0]

Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?

Huh.

Alts are banned from lying about being newbs and Ulti's a newb slot with no games outside this one. But I could've sworn this line was so much of an established in-joke that nobody actually new would ever say it. I didn't think that it actually happened.

It pops up from time to time. It's also pretty NAI. As one example of it coming from scum:

Subject: Newbie 1720: Arctic Mafia - Game over!

@ Drixx, I have a question. I'm not sure if it's a technical issue, or what, and I hope I'm not messing the game up by asking this, but I'm seeing role designations displayed between our screen names and our avatars.

Doesn't that kind of ruin things? Or are these newbie games supposed to display them as part of a tutorial? It just seems too easy.

Also, I thought there were only going to be a total of 2 mafia, and it seems like 3 people have the "Mafia Scum" label.

Subject: Newbie 1720: Arctic Mafia - Game over!

oh wow. I feel kinda dumb now. So "townie" basically means "newbie"?

Subject: Newbie 1720: Arctic Mafia - Game over!

LOL boring is town by the way or the master tactician newbie

Subject: Newbie 1720: Arctic Mafia - Game over!

Lol...Lazy too, but to a lesser extent than Boring. I think they're both town.

boring was scum. She endgamed against a reasonably decent town and a newbie partner. I'm sure that I could find town examples of this too. It's fundamentally NAI.

[mhsmith0]

Of course it was. This game is a trial run for me continuing to IC games, those two posts are what I intend to open every game with, and have my third post onward be modifications as necessary (for instance, this game having a higher-than-standard level of experience).

Fair enough. I wanted to know whether it was worth considering wrt your alignment in this game or not; since it's pre-written, that answers that question.

That said, I take offense to the label of RQS. The questions I asked weren't random, nor something part of a stage. They were meant to give me a better grasp on the newbie players this game, as to better help coach them, which is one reason why I'm honestly a bit miffed that they were all passed over. It makes my job harder.

Except that "RVS" (when optimally done) isn't

REALLY

random voting (just voting that kind of looks random, or if you prefer, not really random after the first couple votes), so I'm not particularly sure why you'd take offense to labeling a stack of (seemingly not super interesting) early questions as RQS.

As far as the label goes, they were questions that looked like RQS in general, as well as the last time I'd seen an early question stack it was explicitly labeled as such:
Subject: Open 646 - Semi Nightless - Game Over (D6)

I will say though that I'm personally not a fan of people who don't like to vote at all, but at the moment that's NAI to me.

Completely misread what was going on because in the rush of replacing in, don't really ask how. I swear that I typically read things more carefully

---

I know some players are really adamant about hating RQS's, so if you're one of those you don't have to answer mine. I would like anyone answering this to put it behind a spoiler because I'd rather not be responsible for filling up this game's pages with what others may consider to be fluff.

Spoiler: RQS

• 1. Do you get your reads typically from gut or evidence?
  
  2. How would you describe your level of experience?
  
  3. When trying to get a better read on a specific player, do prefer you reread the entire thread or just their ISO?
  
  4. What's your Myers-briggs personality type? Here's a link to a test for it if you don't know yours, but you can skip this one if you don't feel like wasting time.
  
  I ask this because a lot of my scumhunting comes from putting myself into other player's shoes and using that to figure out their motives, so knowing how someone thinks is useful for that. I don't really know how successful this'll be but it's worth a shot!
  
  5. What's your opinion on Lynch All Liars? Lynch All Lurkers? Policy lynches in general?
  
  6. Do you think it's a good idea to utilize all of the time allotted by a deadline?
  
  7. Are you scum?

I guess I don't really see the basis for taking offense here at my terminology. If you feel like talking about it more, I guess feel free, but it seems like kind of a non-issue to be raising in the first place to me.

[mhsmith0]

It's interesting to see the number of assumptions you're making in here.
Most of them aren't accurate.
Suffice to say, my answer here isn't changing: at this time, I decline to elaborate.

Well that was a transparently non-helpful response
Just for kicks I'll try and list out assumptions I made, and you can feel free to weigh in on which of them were inaccurate:
1) 57 was a serious post (if this is wrong, obviously the rest of largely a waste of time)
2) The snippet of text that you quoted from oldwino was the relevant part of his post that you were responding to
3) Town? means nulltown, Scum? means nullscum, Scum means scum
4) RC's vote on you was "I'm feeling salty from last game", and that your read was dependent on the "content" of the vote or the tone of it

Spoiler: bonus points on this one

Subject: Mini Normal 1844 Firework Mafia. Game Over

VOTE: mhsmith0
You know why.

Subject: Open 658 Making Friends and Enemies | Game Over

VOTE: mhsmith0
You know why.

one of those transcend was town, one he was scum (both were "salt" votes). If you can guess which was which from the quotes alone, you get a cookie

5) AA/DW's RVS votes were basically empty, but you claimed to have seen something in there that was readable
6) There were scummy parts to OW's post 14 that you hadn't quoted
Which of those assumptions are incorrect? Feel free to answer at some point.

[mhsmith0]

I want you to be explicit and explain both halves of your statement here RE: overall logic, tonality.

It's kind of funny you say this right after you're like "screw explaining myself"
Tone: the casual dismissiveness and snark of it. Basically, it was an answer not even slightly designed to appeal to / pocket him (or if it was, it really wasn't obvious to me how it was), and it felt relatively pure
Logic: Why don't you take a wild guess? I'll even give you a hint and point you to 66 and 72.

[mhsmith0]

Smith's and RC's posts are helpful and interesting. I like them both, maybe because they are seemingly genuinely helpful to us newbies, so I naturally lean town on them but I realize they could be scum, anyone could be scum at this point. Scum are good at hiding, sometimes in plain site, and deceiving townies through false disagreements with or distancing from each other.

Mastina's player posts are disappointing (weak reasons for scum read on me and no reason for her scum read on DW, with town reads on players who haven't said anything). Thanks for volunteering to be the IC, your IC posts were helpful and interesting, but your player mode seems strange, especially your strong scum read on me for two very weak reasons. You just seem to be baiting me, maybe trying to make me into lynch bait (like I was in my first came, I now realize). So I have a strong scum read on you.

OW and mastina are basically never scum together, and OW and RC are pretty unlikely scum together. If OW is scum, I can potentially see this as a "suck up to the vets who are pushing mastina" while opportunistically pushing her for weird play instead of something that's actually scum-motivated.

OTOH, I'm not sure that OW's points here are outside of what a newbtown might think. Mastina has chosen to play in a relatively non-transparent manner, and I'm not sure it's unreasonable for town!OW to react like this.

Then again, the tone is kind of off for what seems like basically a dressed up OMGUS. Probably worth looking into his last game for a better comparison point; likely I'll get around to that over the weekend.

[mhsmith0]

Inversely, question for you. You've given plenty of thoughts on the proceedings thusfar. Any READS?

Yes

[mhsmith0]

Teaching time, and free tip!
When you see a large fight going on, the first thing to do is to determine the alignment of those involved: scum-scum, scum-town, or town-town. It doesn't matter which way you determine the scum-town split to be (though it can make a slight difference), the important factors to look for are scum-scum or town-town, especially the latter.

Because if you find it to be town-town, the very next thing you do is figure out where the scum are in regards to the debate. If you're unsure about which it is, you can probably safely assume town-town. (I mean, this is dangerous since scum-scum WANT to be read as town-town, and scum-town often want to be read as town-town or town-scum, but if you really can't make a determination, statistics are on your side to call a fight town-town; town fight with town a disproportionately high number of times.)

And given a town-town fight, especially in smaller games, that makes it much easier to figure out who the scum are. And believe it or not, I've already told you exactly how to differentiate between the two, somewhere in my iso--can you find it? Can you find where I explain exactly how I differentiate between scum on the sidelines and town on the sidelines?

Teaching time, and free tip!
When there is a town-town fight, fueling the flames is scummy behavior. Super awkward engagement is scummy behavior. Actively working to defuse the argument is towny behavior (provided it's town-town). Actively working to figure out who is right is towny behavior. Doing nothing is basically null. In a town-town fight, scum could be:
-doing nothing while actively posting;
OR
-doing nothing because they weren't around;
It's unclear why in particular the "doing nothing" of OW/DW was considered suspicious; mastina has stated that this wasn't the basis of her read, but this post in particular suggests that it WAS a meaningful portion of her read (otherwise it's just theory fluff and IIOA).
So I guess I'll ask: mastina, please clarify whether the engagement with RC/Grey was a meaningful portion of your read. If so, why did you say it wasn't? If not, what was the point of this post?

[mhsmith0]

Advanced theory lesson here: you see him making fair and pro-town observations. What do you see him doing with those observations?

Why do you expect me to be doing heavy lifting right off the bat? This is just bizarrely early for a "smith isn't doing enough yet, he must be scum" type of read. If you were trying to make a different point here, please clarify.

[mhsmith0]

I'm going to steal from this and posit the inverse of this: Good Posting vs Scum Posting.
Namely, if you hold it true that a lot of times bad posting is done by town instead of mafia...you should also hold it true that a lot of times good posting is done by mafia instead of town. This is something that many find to be counterintuitive, and to be fair, the correlation isn't as strong: there are fewer mafia who can make good posts than there are town who can make shitty posts.
However, spotting mafia making good posts is arguably even more critical to your fundamental development as a player, because you need to be able to spot the difference between good, and town. They are not synonymous. If they were, town winrates would be much higher than they are.

Translation:

smith is making good scum posts. As a side note, I'm also not even slightly worried about RC (known to be a good scum player) making good scum posts, even though in a worldview where I'm concerned about good scum posts being made RC would be the player that town!mastina would probably be MOST concerned with on this front

Was that an unfair interpretation of your current stated game state view? If so please explain how. If not, do you understand why I view that as a probscum post of yours?

[mhsmith0]

Too many walls of fluff. -_-
Something needs to happen.
VOTE: -Grey-
OMG, I self-voted! How scummy is that?!

Null

Too many walls of fluff. -_-
Something needs to happen.
VOTE: -Grey-
OMG, I self-voted! How scummy is that?!

So, it's my second game, anywhere, ever, and in my first game a newbie asked about self-voting and was told that that's very scummy, almost 100% scummy, because it can't do town any good at all. So I'll assume you are one of the two scum until you at least argue to the contrary. If you are town, couldn't you unfluff the game in a more productive way? How is self-voting supposed to stimulate discussion and especially scum hunting?

If I'm scum, why aren't you voting me?
If I'm scum, what do I hope to accomplish by voting myself when I am not under pressure?

Towny response (dislike OW reaction here fwiw)

@-Grey- what do you think of oldwino or DogWatch?

Might be more productive to wait until my interaction with oldwino to end before asking me about my opinion on him.

Towny response

@-Grey- what do you think of oldwino or DogWatch?

Might be more productive to wait until my interaction with oldwino to end before asking me about my opinion on him.

Ok...

If I'm scum, what do I hope to accomplish by voting myself when I am not under pressure?

Isn't it the best time to vote yourself when you're not under pressure?
Makes you look like you're not afraid of pressure, which is supposed to be a town trait.
[Going to sleep - I'm sorry my timezone is gekk (can't think of the right vocab) ]

VOTE: aa-domo
Why are you determined to interfere in my interactions with oldwino?

Slightly towny response. I can see why he might be voting AA instead of OW here as a reaction, though in a world where OW is scum and AA isn't, I might be a bit suspicious of his making the wrong choice when OW was ALSO a valid reaction vote (generally speaking, I'd think that AA's interference here would only look off if OW flipped scum).

[mhsmith0]

PS In case it's not obvious, that was a big wall post that I broke up into more manageable pieces