[Micro 681] Spooky Scary Skeletons Mafia GAME OVER

[drealmerz7]

only scum should try to look town

[Infinity 324]

Yes. That's correct.

[Pine]

Nonsense. While it is ideal that Town should just BE Town and not worry about it, the same kind of tactics that scum use to fake it can help a Townie that's in trouble.

Not contesting your read, just disagreeing about theory.

[Infinity 324]

Well, maybe. I still think he's correct in general though.

I'm thinking about fire trying to come up with reasons to townread keyen. Approaching it that way so blatantly would be silly for a scumbuddy, but it's a little suspicious if keyen is town.

[Infinity 324]

Why would town fucking lie? I'll also explain why I think drealmerz and grey are TvT

@keyenpeydee

What was the deciding factor(s) that made you switch from:

But I think you're

scum

since you sounding angry feels

fake as fuck

and threatening to replace out just feels

fake as fuck

too.

To, 15 minutes later...:

Like I can see grey and drealmerz being both

town

.

I think this is

TvT

tho

I CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH SO MUCH SO PLEASE ASK ME A QUESTION BEFORE SAYING THIS AND THAT SO I CAN CLARIFY.

Okay so first when I was reading it, Drealmerz is trying to point out like "WE SIGNED UP FOR THIS FUCKING GAME BLA BLA BLA WE NEED TO USE THE MECHANIC" -- which on that time I understand and let him use the mechanic, but I disagree why grey is scum for not using the mechanic he signed up for. I disagree on his scumread on grey, but I didn't like which really felt fake as fuck is how angry he's sounding, which feels like he "uses" it to push and lynch for Grey.

Short explanation: He uses his angry emotion, which felt fake, to lynch and push Grey for the reasons I'm disagreeing.

So why do I think Grey and dreal are TvT?

Grey's strategy was making our hidden vote revealed, which I'd like to do. Dreal is saying that we should use the mechanic. But are those opposing strategy make: (in Dreal's POV) make Grey scum? No. (In Grey's POV) make Dreal scum? No.
Both strategies are acceptable to scumhunt. I consider using both.

That's why I think they're both town and why I think Drealz is town too.

This stuff feels like an overreaction and is just terrible. I don't see how dreal is town because disagreeing with grey doesn't make him scum, that makes no sense. Especially when the anger "feels fake". Like, grey says dreal is scum for wanting to conceal votes. Keyen disagrees with that reason. Then if I interpret this correctly, keyen says dreal is town because he disagrees with that reason. What?

Keyen, if you remember what's going on here, please explain.

[Keyser Söze]

Welcome back Pine.

[Infinity 324]

I am satisfied with keyenpeydee's defense (post #489, post #493). I think it explains the contradiction in keyen's change of perspective.

Does anyone disagree?

Yes, I disagree. Maybe you can explain it to me?

[Infinity 324]

I'm going to have to do an ISO of keyser at some point, sticking with my slight lean town read is kind of lazy

[Infinity 324]

yes many times

Do you think he pushed us (through use of aggression, trolling, ATE, tunneling, confirmation-bias) to:
- try and force a miss-lynch?
- to fake a turn-around-town-read and try to pocket us?


Right now, my perspective is: he's a townie who's proud of his self-acclaimed 'effective' scum-hunting methods and he needed to push us in that manner to gain a thorough read on us. (Whatever the collateral cost or reflex attention he would personally receive).

Yes I agree with this

[keyenpeydee]

This stuff feels like an overreaction and is just terrible. I don't see how dreal is town because disagreeing with grey doesn't make him scum, that makes no sense. Especially when the anger "feels fake". Like, grey says dreal is scum for wanting to conceal votes. Keyen disagrees with that reason. Then if I interpret this correctly, keyen says dreal is town because he disagrees with that reason. What?

Keyen, if you remember what's going on here, please explain.

@Infinity

You are making things so complicated and I think you're misunderstanding everything. I might try to explain what I can remember at that time. Let's head to the anger of dreal first. He came in so angry that it felt fake af. But he said it's actually his playstyle or something he always do, so no matter how I felt fake it was, I would consider it town as it is "something he always do".

As for Grey and Dreal, both who got into a fight because of the strategies stated, I think they're not scum because of that. Their opposing strategies doesn't make anyone scum. Grey wants the hidden vote should be revealed public, which I think isn't a scumtell and Dreal wants the hidden votes hidden, isn't a scumtell. So, my interpretation on their fight is town. Both strategies I can do.

If you're gonna twist things, I will choose not to answer you even if it causes my lynch. If you still don't understand everything, go and state it so I can clarify and talk to you. This is also a month ago, and a lot had happened, so you scumreading me for old stuffs aren't worth for my lynch.

[keyenpeydee]

Pine, please don't replace out. I'd like to play with you without that Ceasar gimmick whatsoever.

[Pine]

I'm not replacing out, I'm replacing Caesar-me with Pine-me.

Caesar is fun in active games where I can use it to organize my thoughts and actions, but in this desolate game it's a hindrance.

[Keyser Söze]

Yes I agree with this

I was quite proud of my

moment-of-realisation

I am satisfied with keyenpeydee's defense (post #489, post #493). I think it explains the contradiction in keyen's change of perspective.

Does anyone disagree?

Yes, I disagree. Maybe you can explain it to me?

I can't remember - but I will need to try and think back what was going through my head.
His change of position did disturb me at the time, but I can remember being satisfied... BRB.

[Keyser Söze]

Caesar, explain to me why you didn't believe Grey's Vote Cop claim. It made perfect sense given the game flavor and hidden vote mechanic.

I feel it was a very powerful/useful role that scum didn't want in the game (thus, your bias'd stance makes your push on Grey even worse).

Did you see no town-Grey this game? Grey hinted you have previous experience with him as a player...

That could have been phrased better. I believed Grey's power claim, but the power seemed more likely to be a scum role, not dissimilar to a rolecop.

It must be a town role or a fake claim.

It's only use would be for town.

Scum already know where the town and scum hidden votes are. Why would they need confirmation for what they already know?

For town, a vote cop would have given us the full voting history / movement of any player.

@Pine - can you answer these questions for the moment too.

Plus, Grey said you knew his town-meta...

Have you ever pushed for his policy lynch in other games you have played together?

[My worry is that you pushed his lynch here, because you could see there were willing poeple to push it over the line with you.]

[Pine]

What the hell do you mean, scum already know who the hidden votes are? All they know are their own and their partner's, everything else is still anonymous. It looked like a scum role to me, and quite frankly I still see a lot of scum utility in it.

[Keyser Söze]

Scum know where the town votes are and where their votes are.

Town want to know where the opportunistic hidden scum votes are.

Scum are only concerned with lynching town (and their voting behavior will reflect that).

Town will be honest with where their hidden vote is. If Grey found out about a contradiction in the claims (via PoE or a slip), scum would be f*cked.

IMO, it was a very useful town tool.



What would scum use it for?

"Keyser said his hidden vote was on Zulfy, but it was on Keyen!!!" <<< no, because they can already figure that out through PoE (take away their two hidden votes, Keyen's obvious Alpha vote, and you're left with the obvious town rest.)

[Keyser Söze]

Have you ever pushed for Grey's policy lynch in previous games with him?

[Infinity 324]

This stuff feels like an overreaction and is just terrible. I don't see how dreal is town because disagreeing with grey doesn't make him scum, that makes no sense. Especially when the anger "feels fake". Like, grey says dreal is scum for wanting to conceal votes. Keyen disagrees with that reason. Then if I interpret this correctly, keyen says dreal is town because he disagrees with that reason. What?

Keyen, if you remember what's going on here, please explain.

@Infinity

You are making things so complicated and I think you're misunderstanding everything. I might try to explain what I can remember at that time. Let's head to the anger of dreal first. He came in so angry that it felt fake af. But he said it's actually his playstyle or something he always do, so no matter how I felt fake it was, I would consider it town as it is "something he always do".

As for Grey and Dreal, both who got into a fight because of the strategies stated, I think they're not scum because of that. Their opposing strategies doesn't make anyone scum. Grey wants the hidden vote should be revealed public, which I think isn't a scumtell and Dreal wants the hidden votes hidden, isn't a scumtell. So, my interpretation on their fight is town. Both strategies I can do.

If you're gonna twist things, I will choose not to answer you even if it causes my lynch. If you still don't understand everything, go and state it so I can clarify and talk to you. This is also a month ago, and a lot had happened, so you scumreading me for old stuffs aren't worth for my lynch.

Fair enough with the meta point, I just don't see why you didn't say that earlier.

I still don't understand what actually caused you to townread dreal from this. Why can't he be scum who is taking on a different playstyle as opposed to town who is doing he same thing?

I'm not trying to twist anything, I'm just trying to give my thoughts. I don't, however, think it's fair to ask me to ignore things in the past just because they happened a long time ago. You still had the same role pm then, and they can still be used to determine your alignment.

[Infinity 324]

Agree with 2065

[Pine]

Have you ever pushed for Grey's policy lynch in previous games with him?

I haven't ever encountered Grey quite so obstinate, opportunistic, and counter-productive. I genuinely thought he was scum. It wasn't a policy lynch, it was a presumed scum lynch.

And look, you can disagree with my theory interpretation of the vote cop role, but this isn't a common situation that has been thoroughly solved. I made a judgment call, and it wasn't correct.

[Infinity 324]

As soon as I have a satisfactory read on Zulfy, KainTepes and Flubber we lynch.

Day One Micro is as easy as that. Non-activity is slowing down that process though.

I want opinions on this post and posts like it. I can't tell whether it's LAMIST or genuine gamesolving, or if I'm just overthinking it. Keyser has a lot of posts like this.

Pine, is being obstinate and counterproductive scummy to you?

[Infinity 324]

grey just got a whiff of confidence because his wagon suddenly diminished and now he is a being a scumfuck outright because he likes to get away with that shit

I still think dreal is town, but...

[Pine]

Not always, but when you add opportunism into the mix it is. Some flavors of stubbornness are super Townie, but when you're stubbornly resisting anything resembling productivity or gamesolving, acting like a horse's ass, being abrasive and rude, and jumping on any wagon that shows the slightest hint of going anywhere, it adds up to scummy. Plus there's the fact that he wasn't sticking to his reads, and seemed to be willing to scumread anyone who disagreed with him or townread anyone who he got some traction with. It's not what I call a pro-Town attitude.

[Keyser Söze]

@Infinity
You didn't experience D1 with us.
It was very frustrating.
Me describing the activity is NAI.
Both town or scum could have made that post.

[Infinity 324]

Oh yeah I didn't talk about that read more. Basically dreal is relatively solid town now, I decided my reasons to scumread him (overreaction and calling grey scum in twilight) were just based on dreal things and tunneling respectively.

PEdit: fair