Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[oldwino]

I value experienced conftown's thoughts, etc. and would like Icy to contribute as much as able because we know they are town-driven. But it's also true everyone needs to participate and generate as much dialog, logic, etc. as possible in an effort to expose scum, especially in retrospect during D2 and beyond. No one gets a free pass. Anyone loitering is suspect. In my first game, I voted mostly based on fewest posts - so of course I help lynch townies on D1 and D2 and town lost fast. So I'm looking at content now, scum-hunting content, and don't find much anywhere. Will focus on ISOing everyone and counting scum hunting posts, overly defensive posts, and 'avoidance' posts.

[mhsmith0]

Now, here's a game-relevant challenge for people: what do I think of mastina? Why do you think I think it?

[Darklyn]

Scum-hunting and town-hunting only really work when everyone is taking ownership of the need to solve.

False, there are many ways to play the game.

To the extent that you push responsibility onto a cleared slot, you're denying town important information about connections

False, you can gleam a lot from how players react to the cleared slot

I believe that d1 is the mafia's hardest day. They will leave a legacy of clues on this day specifically that will help you throughout the game.

Very very very false, day 1 is objectively easier for scum than any other day because there have been no flips, no murders, no night actions, there are more players in the game so they have less probability of getting themselves lynched. Day 1 is the point in the game where the town has the least information which gives scum the advantage, saying otherwise is just an outright lie and misleading the town. VOTE: mhsmith0

[mhsmith0]

Day 1 is the point in the game where the town has the least information which gives scum the advantage, saying otherwise is just an outright lie and misleading the town

1) Are you a newbie?
2) Did you miss the whole quote? Did you miss my making the point that it is very hard for mafia to avoid leaving a trail of clues behind that will help town throughout the rest of the game?
3) Do you think that I would be objectively lying about mafia theory as an IC in my IC post?
viewtopic.php?p=8468553#p8468553
viewtopic.php?p=8468554#p8468554
were my IC posts in my most recent completed game as IC (I was town btw), and you can explicitly see that very point in the post.

So is your vote based on anything other than "I disagree with you about mafia theory"?

[mhsmith0]

In a bit more detail:

Scum-hunting and town-hunting only really work when everyone is taking ownership of the need to solve.

False, there are many ways to play the game.

There are many ways to play the game. Many of those ways are bad. If you disagree, feel free to browse the discussions about how dumb towns tend to be and how much help game designers need to give them for them to have a reasonable chance at winning. If you doubt such discussions exist, I'd be happy to link them.

To the extent that you push responsibility onto a cleared slot, you're denying town important information about connections

False, you can gleam a lot from how players react to the cleared slot

This is somewhat true, but limited. Scum and town both know that a cleared slot is clear, so there's less difference between how either would treat such a slot, since both know that the slot is clear (scum might have a bit more incentive to buddy or manipulate, but that's generally not going to be done in a super obvious manner). Comparatively, you can generally gleam MORE from how players react to non-cleared slots by reading back after flips.

I believe that d1 is the mafia's hardest day. They will leave a legacy of clues on this day specifically that will help you throughout the game.

Very very very false, day 1 is objectively easier for scum than any other day because there have been no flips, no murders, no night actions, there are more players in the game so they have less probability of getting themselves lynched. Day 1 is the point in the game where the town has the least information which gives scum the advantage, saying otherwise is just an outright lie and misleading the town. VOTE: mhsmith0

Discussed in detail already. If you disagree you need to have substance behind it instead of "I disagree, you must be lying, you must be scum" as if somehow I would actually lie to you about mafia theory as scum in a newbie game (even as a non-IC slot I wouldn't do that, both because of ethics and because of how generally stupid that would be).

The obvious conclusion here is that I actually believe this, and then the question is whether I'm telling you something I actually believe to be true due to town motivation or scum motivation (something that you're choosing not to engage with currently).

[Darklyn]

If you're not lying, then you have a flawed playstyle, I mean you can play that way if you want but please don't give that advice to others, it's terrible

[PenguinPower]

Vote Count 1.14

mhsmith0

(3): mastina, DogWatch, Darklyn

Darklyn

(2): RadiantCowbells, pieg

mastina

(1): oldwino

pieg

(1): mhsmith0

Not Voting

: Icy, -Grey-
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-03-15 06:05:00)

[mhsmith0]

If you're not lying, then you have a flawed playstyle, I mean you can play that way if you want but please don't give that advice to others, it's terrible

Nonsense. I mean, yes, I have flaws in my playstyle, but that certainly isn't one of them. It is objectively true that day 1 is actually difficult for scum, not because they're unlikely to achieve a mislynch (obviously d1 mislynches are common) but because it is really hard for them to behave in a manner that doesn't eventually attract a lot of suspicion to themselves as the game progresses and flips make things clearer (this is especially true after the first scum lynch by the way). This is simply fact.

[mhsmith0]

Now, you've represented yourself as being very much a non-newbie, so I'm curious where you've gained enough experience to have this theory that you seem confident in. I'm presuming you're an off-site player; which site (or sites) in particular are you from?

[Darklyn]

If you're not lying, then you have a flawed playstyle, I mean you can play that way if you want but please don't give that advice to others, it's terrible

it is really hard for them to behave in a manner that doesn't eventually attract a lot of suspicion to themselves as the game progresses and flips make things clearer

You're making a strange implication here. I've seen plenty of games where scum avoided suspicion all game... and mafia victories are common enough so the numbers don't agree with you either. You're not presenting facts here, you're just giving an opinion.

Now, you've represented yourself as being very much a non-newbie, so I'm curious where you've gained enough experience to have this theory that you seem confident in. I'm presuming you're an off-site player; which site (or sites) in particular are you from?

Just on other forums, I am new to this website

[mhsmith0]

If you're not lying, then you have a flawed playstyle, I mean you can play that way if you want but please don't give that advice to others, it's terrible

it is really hard for them to behave in a manner that doesn't eventually attract a lot of suspicion to themselves as the game progresses and flips make things clearer

You're making a strange implication here. I've seen plenty of games where scum avoided suspicion all game... and mafia victories are common enough so the numbers don't agree with you either. You're not presenting facts here, you're just giving an opinion.

And they avoid suspicion because:

• townies don't bother to go back and re-read stuff
  
• townies allow day 1's to be lazy in part because they figure they won't get a lynch anyway
  
• townies over-rely on power roles and night actions to save them
  
• as I directly posted,

  If things are going badly for a town as they move into d3, d4, d5 there is more and more 'sludge' in thread - townies posting garbage, getting into fights, confirmation bias written large etc etc. The mafia have all sorts of camoflage to mask their insincerity

• etc

As far as presenting an opinion goes, you're absolutely correct. It is my opinion. An informed one that comes from quoting players that I greatly respect, to boot. The basis of your objection so far seems to be "well I disagree" and "well scum get easy wins sometimes", neither of which seem to be substantive.

That said, that's getting a bit off-topic. What do you believe my scum motivation is for pushing a theory that I clearly believe in and that you don't?

Now, you've represented yourself as being very much a non-newbie, so I'm curious where you've gained enough experience to have this theory that you seem confident in. I'm presuming you're an off-site player; which site (or sites) in particular are you from?

Just on other forums, I am new to this website

And I'm asking you which one or ones.

[Darklyn]

townies don't bother to go back and re-read stuff

An assumption, but even if it's true, so what? Not every player has the time to re-read every page of content, and for some it's just not their playstyle.

townies allow day 1's to be lazy in part because they figure they won't get a lynch anyway

Not lazy, there is a certain level where the game gets bloated in posts which isn't helpful for the town. There's 22 pages so far, how many do you need to be satisfied?

townies over-rely on power roles and night actions to save them

They're one of the few ways to get reliable information to the game

And I'm asking you which one or ones.

Why do you care? It's not relevant to the game

[mhsmith0]

...

townies over-rely on power roles and night actions to save them

They're one of the few ways to get reliable information to the game

Mafiascum has a site meta of (trying to) emphasize the day game and scum-hunting, and relying less on night/PR actions. PR actions are limited in scope and functionality, and as such should generally not be relied on overmuch in MS games (though of course some people DO over-rely on them, sometimes to especially brutal effect when scum make an effective fake claim late game or in LYLO).

And I'm asking you which one or ones.

Why do you care? It's not relevant to the game

because I want to know how credible it is that you believe this theory you're peddling. I'm guessing you're from some super PR heavy place like epicmafia or town of salem?

[Darklyn]

Mafiascum has a site meta of (trying to) emphasize the day game and scum-hunting, and relying less on night/PR actions. PR actions are limited in scope and functionality, and as such should generally not be relied on overmuch in MS games (though of course some people DO over-rely on them, sometimes to especially brutal effect when scum make an effective fake claim late game or in LYLO).

So is scumhunting, that's the point of the game m8

Quote Fixed

-PenguinMod

[Darklyn]

oh I messed up that quote

[mhsmith0]

So is scumhunting, that's the point of the game m8

Yes, scum-hunting is the point of the game. "let's dump responsibility onto the town clear and hope he gets it right" is not scum-hunting.

[Darklyn]

Are you afraid he might lynch you?

[mhsmith0]

Are you afraid he might lynch you?

That's a question that basically answers itself, don't you think?

My list at this point

Mhsmith
Dogwatch
Oldwino

RC
Pieg
Darklyn

Grey
Mastina

[Darklyn]

Touché
but I'm still voting for you

[mhsmith0]

And why am I scum again? I'm not lying about theory, and I'm not scared of icy. Why am I scum?

[Darklyn]

Because the mod gave you that role

[mhsmith0]

So you got nothing?

[Darklyn]

Stop mewling, your day or reckoning is nigh

[mhsmith0]

So you got nothing?

Stop mewling, your day or reckoning is nigh

you are correct

I fixed your typos

[Darklyn]

Rude