Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[outoforder]

I went back on the third point didn't I???

I don't care. It's not about if you scumread me or not. It's about my read on you because rn you aren't giving much anything and i want to hear how your thought process went.

[cassielle]

I would shoot BlackVoid.

i get the reasoning but it killed my townread of this slot? like yeah, you shoot BV because hes never gettin lynched but if you shoot BV you take out the town motivator of the moment and hes lynched two scum. for him to risk that kind of bus hed have to be ultraconfident he can make it through days and days of mislynches after his buddies are dead, AND not get hit with an armed PGO

he threw the game unless he can make it to 3-slot LyLo put simply

so....momos probscum imo.

ooo or rels as backups, i think ooo is prob a good enough scum player to have highly convincing town reactions
kidamn is also a "maybe" suddenly. it's in the way he asked fitz to claim mostly -- all roles are known and mafia will NEVER claim anything but PGO. fitz outed that he was still able to arm -- could kidamn have been fishing for that? idk, its a weak case but it might end up being worthwhile?

dont get the fitz shits but idk maybe i need to reread. the "winning" part for me was that fitz/hapa did not read like scum theater, felt more like SvT -- hapa p much shouted him off stage and he went lurkmode.

as for me lurking, ive been semi-wrong once and totally wrong once thus far. its clear that trying to lead town is not helpful when they got you BV, so im sheeping you p much unconditionally and just posting my input on the situation until you pick your fav target of the day

[momo]

What I am saying is that if I was scum I would shoot BV.

I mean why not???

He is strong town, will not get lynched, and will lynch scum.

So if I was scum, I would take out BlackVoid.

[cassielle]

What I am saying is that if I was scum I would shoot BV.

I mean why not???

He is strong town, will not get lynched, and will lynch scum.

So if I was scum, I would take out BlackVoid.

shit my bad

misread, thought popcorn on dayvig thing was going on

alright so scratch that part. still feeling ooo/rels

[outoforder]

momo is very very likely to be town.

[BlackVoid]

Fitz's posts seemed somewhat genuine actually but this is really difficult to make a call on.

@Cass, was there a towngame of yours in the past where you just decide to sheep a townread just because you were wrong before?

Also, can you describe your scumplay? How good would you say you are? Do you win often? Can you link me to your homesite so I can look through a few games?

[havingfitz]

VOTE: Havingfitz

You're already voting me...I really wish I was a day vig.

[BlackVoid]

I don't know if "lynch me instead of Hap" makes any sense for outoforder to do as town when Hap was pretty obviously scummy and lurking especially if they knew each other from before. Rels' 2250 makes sense too. Why would you quit mafia after a game you likely with scumlynches D1, D2, and D4 (since you are so sure Fitz is scum) and you get lynched? I need more time to think this through as well.

[KidAmn]

kidamn is also a "maybe" suddenly. it's in the way he asked fitz to claim mostly -- all roles are known and mafia will NEVER claim anything but PGO. fitz outed that he was still able to arm -- could kidamn have been fishing for that? idk, its a weak case but it might end up being worthwhile?

Fair points: it's something of a reflex for me to ask for the claim since you never know when caught scum will make a slip. I certainly wasn't fishing for the availability of the ability, but no way to prove that.

unvote

don't see a world where Fitz' reaction isn't genuine unless he was fully aware as I was that Ooo's vote hadn't been counted. MOMO on the other hand has suddenly leapt to life now that they think they're on the edge of getting the Fitz lynch which gives me sufficient pause.

[BlackVoid]

@Fitz, can you answer my question about what part of my towncase on Hap most persuasive? Also, is there a reason you haven't voted outoforder/shown more enthusiasm about lynching him since you seem really confident he's scum?

[havingfitz]

I am voting for havingfitz.

@ Tenshii :

like i cant discuss anything with you when you do this.
i hope you're town and we lose.
UNVOTE: Rels
VOTE: havingfitz

Come on there's a votecount on the same page that says "5 to lynch" of that Fitz post rofl.

I'm awake now. What's your excuse for not knowing what you are doing?

So Rels, what's up?
UNVOTE: havingfitz

What's your excuse for not knowing what you are doing?

I don't understand the question.

You give me shit for getting lynch requirement wrong when you can even keep your own vote status straight.

[cassielle]

Fitz's posts seemed somewhat genuine actually but this is really difficult to make a call on.

@Cass, was there a towngame of yours in the past where you just decide to sheep a townread just because you were wrong before?

Also, can you describe your scumplay? How good would you say you are? Do you win often? Can you link me to your homesite so I can look through a few games?

in order: no, but ive been wrong a LOT the past few days, in multiple games. i dont trust my play anymore
my scumplay is coasty, so i guess im playing to my scum meta unintentionally.
i usually won but its just because i coasted and the rest of the team tried crazy manipulation shit (and my old site was very laid back meta, so going loud got you lynched)
and no. i wont link to my home site because of bad blood that caused me to leave there a few years back. its still volatile and i dont need to suddenly have it blow back up

iirc we havent mislynched even once though so if you need to lynch me to continue without paranoia go for it

[havingfitz]

@bv....at work. Will answer shortly.

[cassielle]

EBWOP mostly for the sake of mod sanity:

its good for my wincon to get lynched if its necessary rn
we can afford it (no mls to date) and im not helping town out a whole hell of a lot atm
one green flip wont hurt the game, just changes from a town clean sweep to a town win with one mislynch, im not super concerned by it and because it narrows down to playing field, concentrates active slots in the thread and reduces the number of suspect individuals, overall i feel that -- if bv has doubts -- taking one for the team is pro-town here

[outoforder]

I seriously believe we should murder fitz, or possibly Kop. Maybe hawk is the third scum but idk. I am not too confident on that.

Can you guys please go read fitz' filter and tell me how any of his reasoning for scumreads ever makes anyone mafia?

You have ignored repeated questions by me to you...I have seen no case by you on me...and you have a tendency to ad-hom players and/or disparage their ability.

OoO wagon would work as well.

You suspect them cause they are voting you and have a cold foul mouth at times?

Voting me and having a foul mouth aren't automaticreasons for suspicion.

I'm not presenting a case on OoO.

I'm complaining about the fact he's ignored my questions...made no case on me I can see and is discrediting other players.

Which when laid out like that is stuff I find suspect in varying degrees. Zzzzzz
Out...

I haven't had a chance to present my OoO suspicions due to lack of time but I started on this early this morning and I want to post what I have while I have the chance.

I will present my OoO stuff NLT tomorrow.

The failure (IMO) to answer my questions...the failure (IMO) to provide a case on me when he feels I deserve his vote...and the ad-homs towards and disparaging of others are some reasons I suspect OoO

and would like to see him lynched. And for D1 suspicions they are were than suitable reasons for me to be good with an OoO lynch.

Soooo..
- Make a case
- Say you haven't made a case
- Make the same case again

He is either:
1) Bullshitting
2) Forgot why he scumread me

As for 1) it always makes him mafia. As for 2) i have seen the same thing happen once before. Here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/4 ... ge=89#1765
The difference is that there were actually smart fucking players who can actually tell what makes people mafia and the cop lynched this poor godfather despite having a green check on him based on this case. Town people don't forget why they scumread people they find scummy. NEVER! Because that's what the game is about, and nothing else. Town people also don't make a case, then say it's not a case and then make the same case again.

I also find it impossible Fitz can't make a connection between "ad-homs towards and disparaging of others" and "being a dick". He makes very simple things very hard for no fucking reason since for anyone with any brain at all it's completely clear what i am referring to since it's the same thing. Just because i use different words it doesn't make it any different. I have explained it to him, Aubrey did explain it to him, maybe like 10 other people should do it so it starts ringing any bells? No, i think he's just being agonising because he is mafia.

[outoforder]

You give me shit for getting lynch requirement wrong when you can even keep your own vote status straight.

I am voting for you and Tenshii just missed my vote.

[outoforder]

At least fucking pretend you're reading the game scum.

[outoforder]

wait wtf:
VOTE: havingfitz

[outoforder]

You give me shit for getting lynch requirement wrong when you can even keep your own vote status straight.

I am not giving you shit. I am saying it's just as likely that you missed that as town as it is that you didn't actually miss that as mafia.
= that is something that doesn't make you town

Why are you trying to make things look like something they aren't? If i had thought that is something that makes you mafia i would have called you mafia for it.

[outoforder]

WAiiiiit. You knew i was not voting for you but you somehow "thought" L-4 + 2 votes = lynched?!?!?

[BlackVoid]

I'm just really paranoid if there's one scum outside of Fitz/outoforder that they'll make lylo. Neither Fitz nor outoforder are looking past the other and outside of that, me and Rels are the only ones trying to gamesolve. I'd really love it if everyone gets more active. Creature basically ignored me when I asked for help figuring out the game.

@Cass - if you are town, you weren't bad this game. It just so happened that I emphatically derailed your preferred scumlynch and lynched his buddy whom you were townreading so I can understand why you were annoyed overall. But I want a perfect win here and I'm sure you do too. What'll help is everyone re-reading the game from start to end and posting thoughts and trying to figure it out. I'm sure you can do it. Please get back in the game.

I'm heading to work now but I'll re-read the game in its entirety once I'm back tonight.

[outoforder]

I'm just really paranoid if there's one scum outside of Fitz/outoforder that they'll make lylo. Neither Fitz nor outoforder are looking past the other and outside of that, me and Rels are the only ones trying to gamesolve. I'd really love it if everyone gets more active. Creature basically ignored me when I asked for help figuring out the game.

@Cass - if you are town, you weren't bad this game. It just so happened that I emphatically derailed your preferred scumlynch and lynched his buddy whom you were townreading so I can understand why you were annoyed overall. But I want a perfect win here and I'm sure you do too. What'll help is everyone re-reading the game from start to end and posting thoughts and trying to figure it out. I'm sure you can do it. Please get back in the game.

I'm heading to work now but I'll re-read the game in its entirety once I'm back tonight.

lol Rels is not trying to gamesolve.
momo is not mafia. Look at his answers to me. Can you see what i can see? There is a reason momo as mafia says something else to "who would have killed Kop as mafia" than "i don't know".
+ the second sentence is a perfect reason why i am not mafia. That's also why i get very frustrated when 2 people who know/agree that my scumplay is not bad tyr to tell i am mafia when i would have played terribly in this game -> i literally endgamed myself if i shot Kop, that's a fucking fact. Somehow Rels is butthurt for i don't even know what and you can't see the easy explanation.

But whatever, i am going to be right and that's enough for me.

[outoforder]

I am still going to say that whoever of BV/Rels/Creature is alive at lylo should be auto-lynched because they are good enough to solve the game and they will have (after D2) 4 weeks to solve this game with at least 2 of them being alive. If they cannot do that and end up on retarded reads like this, they should be lynched. Always. Even if Fitz is alive at lylo i would lynch onto whoever of those three is alive because they deserve to lose the game whatever alignment they are at that point.

[Creature]

I don't think this is how fitz plays scum.

[outoforder]

VOTE: Havingfitz

I just offered myself being lynched over a townie so Rels can what??? "get towncredit"? (when me - Rels interaction caused the whole thing in the first place). I am sorry, smart mafia teams do not do that. Especially when it would leave 1 mafia alive which has a chance of instantly losing the game if you shoot the wrong person.. They just simply agree to lynch the townie.

I cannot disagree with any of this. Bussing in this format is basically good as suicide to lose the game. Not even bussing on day one.

I don't think OoO is scum in this scenario as I suspect Rels more.

I suspected rels of that, and still do. That's why my vote is/was on him.

I echo the thoughts of Cassielle regarding Rels.

It would be beneficial if we got a flip on either Hapa or rels, but I am feeling rels more than Hapa at the minute. His whole push on Hapa, and that question that I questioned and a few others he just wouldn't reveal what he intended, it just felt that he was setting Hapa up to suspect then back off when Hapa came into the game properly. I get a strong sense of feeling that it's either bussing, or classic distancing if one was to flip later in the game. It looks worse with Rels backing out of it, which also points to that if Hapa flips town, Rels gains town credit because he can actually safely say well I felt that he was town because of his responses and there isn't any backlash towards Rel because of it.

Just it doesn't feel right anymore, my slight town read that I got has gone.

With scum having day talk, it could have easily been orchestrated and co-ordinated without having to work hard at it, if Hapa flips scum, it would point me heavily towards Rel again.

Taking Rel out would answer a lot towards my thoughts towards Hapa, it could make me think twice in regards to him.

Here.

I mean here is why momo doesn't say he "doesn't know" why mafia shot Kop if he is mafia. Mafia always shoots people for a reason. If momo is mafia and shot Kop there are three reasons for him:
- Kop hammered scum (which isn't really a good reason to shoot him since you already explained why that doesn't make Kop town - and momo has been reading the thread since he can at least realize you're the driving force behind this town)
- momo wants to use that to push a lynch on Fitz
- momo wants to do that to push a lynch on Rels

Both of those people were who Kop suspected before voting for Hapa. Now when Kop shouldn't be townread for his vote, the only reasons for momo to kill Kop is to try push a lynch on Fitz/Rels. It could be possible that he was waiting for someone to bring that up as a reason to NK Kop (fitz/rels being mafia) but noone has expressed anything regarding that and i asked him a straight up question (well i kinda painted it as a innocent "hey just tell me what you think" kind of a question). I believe momo's reasoning for shooting Kop (in case he is mafia) doesn't go together with his actions on D3.