Newbie 1781 - Game over

[rb]

Hi guys, checking in before work. Accusing me of siteflake why you little *strangles Creature*

[rb]

As IC for newbies I have one really big piece of advice for newbies in their first game, and the rest I can do throughout the game, helping people as needed. The most important thing is that you post regularly.

Remember that it's a game of uncertainty and you can't really be certain ever, unless you have a cop read or something. But it doesn't really help out the town if you just sit idly by and wait for something to happen. If you think something is scummy, point it out and vote if you think they could be scum. Don't be one of the people who timidly tiptoes around their first game and misses out on a really great learning experience.

[rb]

Not all lemons are villains.

But all villains are lemons. It's an imperfect tell but there's a 71.79295% chance you're a scumlemon VOTE: EccentricLemon

[rb]

because im a magnificent gentleman

[rb]

Creature, is ur vote still rvs or is it more than that?

assuming it was serious, what would you think? Is that protown or proscum?

[rb]

I suppose I've got one of those faces.

ye ur fase sux

[rb]

Okay, I'll bite. Why rb?

accountant you're unusually not-aggressive for early game Accountant

R u ok?

[rb]

Follow one of i the ideas, would he be town or scum?

[rb]

He was posting elsewhere while here he seemed inactive.

I'm only in 1 game, wut

[rb]

VOTE: EccentricLemon

Serious vote.

[rb]

y my spidermeme no work :~(

[rb]

i have no idea why we're bp claiming

[rb]

y my spidermeme no work :~(

>not voting lemon

Are you scum, rb?

p sure i started the lemon thing

or did i?

im town

[rb]

i like aatami tbh, probs town

[rb]

wait nvm their join date is before mine, i didn't think a newb could pull this off as scum but maybe

[rb]

JJUST MAUBE, AATAMI COULD DO ITTT

[rb]

but they're probably just town LUL

[rb]

that seems like a rly bad reason to townread me tbh

not sure if i like iTTTTT

[rb]

i mean i guess you mean im town enough for the early stage of the game based on my previous games, but if you mean you think im actually town then i dunno if i rly like that post of yours

[rb]

also lol @ me still having a christmas hat on my avatar, fuck in so passe and hip

[rb]

HKD (if you don't mind me calling you that) please obtain for yourself an avatar to allow us the convenience of recognizing your presence near-instantaneously by the visual recognition of your avatar that will allow for greater expediency of expedienceness in the game

tl;dr get an avatar so we can figure out who's speaking faster

thx

also is that an OMGUS vote?

what's tarkas done that u disLikEE

[rb]

The Newbie game setups are done via matrix6, Jester can't be in the game. You should review Huntress' first few posts HKD

[rb]

V/LA for weekend btw

[rb]

(In my timezone, it is weekend)

[rb]

Hes definitely not town for me atm, i dont like his lack of explanations and his vote switch, which i guess is a lot of things to not like but I feel that i could attribute it to being new? I just really want to see more from a lot of people so i can trust my preliminary thoughts more. if you think putting a vote somewhere i find scummy is appropriate ill do that, i just dont want to misuse my vote

Well your vote should always be where you think you're voting for scum. The main thing is figuring out who is scum and who to vote for should then be easy.

[rb]

Destro, I'd like to hear why you vote hopped from lemon to creature, and why you joined the lemon wagon in the first place.

Also I'm not one-shot bulletproof.

The claim strategy is laid out here in game 1775 by RadiantCowbells, if you don't know what we're doing:

Spoiler:

So, over the last few months while I was not playing Mafia I have been working on strategies to up town's winrate in this setup and since I have finally rolled town I am going to put them into action.
The correct play at the beginning of D1 in this setup is for the 1-Shot Bulletproof, if any, to claim. This helps town immensely in numerous setups. Why am I advocating this?

1) It is fucking insane for scum to try to claim 1-shot BP in this situation. It is an insane risk play which forces a 1v1 in 5/6 setups and gets minor towncred in 1/6.
2) If the setup is Roleblocker/Jailkeeper/1-Shot BP, it's easy for the BP claim to be disbelieved. The claim coming at the start of the game makes it far more trustworthy.
3) If the setup is Tracker/1-Shot BP/Goon, the Tracker knows that there is no doc and can be a lot safer on claiming. Note that mathematically the correct play is to target the outed tracker if the other PR is not known; so little potential gain is made here.
4) If the setup is Tracker/Doc/Goon, a living tracker will know by the lack of a BP claim that there is a doctor. He can then claim safely and be doctor protected the entire game. Which sucks because I'm going to get guaranteed nightkilled but I'll get over it.

Since the 1-Shot Bulletproof doesn't actually net town a mislynch by being hit it is not actually specifically valuable for it to bait the hit.
This does come at the cost of narrowing down the game possibilities for scum: but I believe that the reward is well worth the price.

lol, Accountant said Lemons claimed scum, and I assumed I missed that post:facepalm:
Then I reread the thread, and came to the conclusion Creature is scum. Reread it yourself, focus on Creature

Why's creature scum?

[rb]

Wao this wagon building fast, dunno what destro even did

[rb]

I wanna know why he thinks Creature is scum but if you're right I guess it doesn't matter Accountant. I doubt it'd be a double bus by destro + creature so they wouldn't be a team

[rb]

I've only ever played one other game, which is over by now so you can read it. If you read it, you can see that I had precisely the same problem I warned you about. I had trouble expressing what I meant and I was repeatedly getting run up as scum even though I was town. I appreciate that the wagon disappeared but I still don't like the speed with which Accountant rallied one and subsequently dropped it.

Spoiler:

^ fencesitting/setting the stage to either push a wagon on Creature or townread him depending on how the game goes.

Sooooo I'm not supposed to ever have a read on Creature?

>not voting lemon

Are you scum, rb?

Yeah we're out of RVS, EccentricLemon claimed scum so we're lynching them, you should join the wagon

Destro, I'd like to hear why you vote hopped from lemon to creature, and why you joined the lemon wagon in the first place.

Also I'm not one-shot bulletproof.

The claim strategy is laid out here in game 1775 by RadiantCowbells, if you don't know what we're doing:
So, over the last few months while I was not playing Mafia I have been working on strategies to up town's winrate in this setup and since I have finally rolled town I am going to put them into action.
The correct play at the beginning of D1 in this setup is for the 1-Shot Bulletproof, if any, to claim. This helps town immensely in numerous setups. Why am I advocating this?

1) It is fucking insane for scum to try to claim 1-shot BP in this situation. It is an insane risk play which forces a 1v1 in 5/6 setups and gets minor towncred in 1/6.
2) If the setup is Roleblocker/Jailkeeper/1-Shot BP, it's easy for the BP claim to be disbelieved. The claim coming at the start of the game makes it far more trustworthy.
3) If the setup is Tracker/1-Shot BP/Goon, the Tracker knows that there is no doc and can be a lot safer on claiming. Note that mathematically the correct play is to target the outed tracker if the other PR is not known; so little potential gain is made here.
4) If the setup is Tracker/Doc/Goon, a living tracker will know by the lack of a BP claim that there is a doctor. He can then claim safely and be doctor protected the entire game. Which sucks because I'm going to get guaranteed nightkilled but I'll get over it.

Since the 1-Shot Bulletproof doesn't actually net town a mislynch by being hit it is not actually specifically valuable for it to bait the hit.
This does come at the cost of narrowing down the game possibilities for scum: but I believe that the reward is well worth the price.

lol, Accountant said Lemons claimed scum, and I assumed I missed that post:facepalm:
Then I reread the thread, and came to the conclusion Creature is scum. Reread it yourself, focus on Creature

We found Lemons' scumbuddy.

If you need to intimidate players into following your wagon, your wagon isn't valid. How is this different from you accusing me of leaving a reason to come back to Creature? You just left a completely arbitrary reason to come back to Destro for disagreeing with you.

All that said, I think Accountant is just overeager town thus far (weak townread).

It would be nice though if people didn't wait for people to ask why they scumread someone and just explain it in the same post. It just makes it easier to read.

While I appreciate the speed with which the game is progressing, I think that we're being a bit too spontaneous with the accusations.

What's wrong with wagons being fast? If the goal is to lynch scum, isn't the thing that matters that we're hitting scum?

[rb]

Is this a scumteam do you think Accountant? Lemons/Destro?

[rb]

UNVOTE:

We're not L-1ing Destro yet. rb, why are you buddying me?

wat, i'm not even sure if i even think you're town yet

[rb]

still on v/la btw, not quite home yet

[rb]

but tbf i don't really disagree with your direction here anyway as i've got no real love for either destro or lemons at this point of the game. you aren't lynching anyone that i think is a bad lynch so i'm not really gonna agonize over your alignment (some of the shit you said was weird and pinged scum but ur always weird and pinging me as scum) if your overall game is actually fine. you know me well enough to know i dont look for 'scumtells' so much as i look for whether or not people's patterns of behaviour and decision-making/interpretation of the game aligns with a town or scum mindset

m88*888

still on phone and cant spidermeme feelsbadman

[rb]

139 - im clarifying ur meaning, if you're intending to call out the scumteam or they're just 2 independent reads that dont impact the other
138 - im asking lemons a question because regardless of whatever alignment you are, wagons just being 'fast' isn't a scumtell. i firmly believe being good at mafia is about being good at processes, and getting a lucky good result from bad play isn't what i aim to teach people - especially not when i'm playing as an IC
137 - what's buddying about it? creature + destro is a pretty unlikely scumteam. destro's brand new, so if he's scum, the odds of him joining the game and then just hardbussing his teammate in Creature (and vice-versa) is such a remote possibility. that's why I said "if you're right" - meaning that if you're right about destro being scum, then creature's alignment i don't even need to think about. if destro is D1 lynch and is red, creature is basically conftown. the post really has nothing to do with you

not to mention i think if creature was scum he'd have more faith in his ability to win than to simply bus his newb buddy. so yeah, i really doubt the scumteam would be destro + creature, there's just too many things that conflict that line of thinking.

[rb]

lmao i rly need to go to bed

[rb]

so far i've only been paying attention to you, destro and lemons because they've been the most important slots in the game and i think it's like:

acc - probtown
destro - probscum
lemons - scum

[rb]

lemons will be another one of those RVS tunnels that turn out to be right. dude felt off really early, hasn't felt not-off and i'm like scarred for life for not lynching gameplay in the Normal you ran, where I thought to myself, "na, it's probably unlikely that I caught scum on page1" but really i caught scum on page1.

i catch scum on page1 enough times that i'm fairly sure it's not a fluke.

[rb]

im going to bed ok, so much for v/la.

[rb]

Since when you learned to read Accountant?

I've played like 4 games with him.

[rb]

What's wrong with wagons being fast? If the goal is to lynch scum, isn't the thing that matters that we're hitting scum?

I agree that the thing that matters is that we hit scum but it's important to realize I think that this is a newbie game and we gotta a) take it easy and b) realize that straight out of the gate even townie newbs can sound scummy. I'm not really talking about myself, I've already played one game. Plus, we've got a lot of time left. I don't think now is the time to be spontaneous.

I'm pretty good at differentiating between newbtown and newbscum, but only if wagons build fast and I see them play in earnest. I'm not all that interested in waiting around and being non-spontaneous for...I don't know what reason, because what better way to find scum than to give them the ultimate reason to start actually talking: a promising wagon. Votes are the most powerful influence for either alignment to start talking, and without people talking, everything just becomes a grey shady area where decisions are hard to make.

[rb]

Lemon's fine. Don't blame her for preferring the comfort of the picket fence instead of the prickly dead grass.

Destro is something. Don't feel like lynching him right now.

I've only ever played part of one game, dont let my join date fool you lol
I'm not ready to vote lemon, I don't think the set up to tr or sr was intentional, and I want to see a little more.
I didn't like Handsome's opening at all, and there was no follow up, lots of filler, and the mention that he wasn't a noob felt weird? Very calculated.

You still have this opinion?

Clarify on the meaning of 'destro is something'?

I feel like this is a pretty safe stance to make on the leading wagon, whether destro flips scum or town and it seems to me that anyone's top priority right now would be to sort destro. I don't want to end games early, but why are you more interested in shifting focus OFF destro and onto someone else? Is it because you think destro's town? Or is he just your scumbuddy?

[rb]

Clarify on the meaning of 'destro is something'?

I feel like this is a pretty safe stance to make on the leading wagon, whether destro flips scum or town and it seems to me that anyone's top priority right now would be to sort destro. I don't want to end games early, but why are you more interested in shifting focus OFF destro and onto someone else? Is it because you think destro's town? Or is he just your scumbuddy?

It means he's something.

I said I didn't want to lynch him. So yes, I think he's town. And while I'm all for pressuring, everyone's already on his ass. Why are you discouraging discussion on other people?

That’s a stretch. I just wanted to add my thoughts on it. If you think following up on my own posts is scummy, you’ll be reading me wrong all game.

Not all I said, mate. A big part of it is how unnatural it felt. You just went for the easier part to break down and ignored the rest of the read.

Why's he town then?

I'm not diacouraging anything, I wanna know why you're taking no real stance on the leading wagon and then moving onto others. If it's because you think someone's town that's important, but 'he is something' is a really ambiguous thing that leaves you a lot of room to wriggle about your reluctance to vote for Destro later on, if he does get lynched today.

[rb]

But I didn't ask about Destro.

I know, I meant I still wanted more from Lemons, I was just adding that I still feel this way about Destro.


I want to pressure others, because for the time being this is sort of a dead end until we get some more to work with, but Im not quite sure how to do that any advice(this is to everyone), how can I effectively scumhunt without a ton of content or just look im repeating what others have said even if i agree?

From an IC perspective there's no way to 'do it' you just do it. Ask questions of people, clarify their meanings, analyse points. Nothing's solid early game, you just have to fling some mud and see whose clothes come out dirty.

[rb]

Tbh I've never seen the BP claim thing Loopdan? In fact, how is this suddenly a thing you're insistent on when all of our previous newbie games together you haven't even suggested it at all?

I actually can't stand mechanical-clearing people and think it's a wholly shit way to teach newbies to play because matrix6 is designed to be a simplified manner in which they can learn how to scumhunt, not a setup to be exploited to try and get a win. Honestly the stupidest thing.

[rb]

Every player I know who sits around in setup-spec happens to also be a shitty player, so I'm not claiming or not-claiming BP on the principle of: "play the game, not the gimmick"

[rb]

It was just a vote left over from the RV stage. I'd honestly completely forgotten about it. When I was reminded of it, I decided not to move my vote. I think I've made it pretty clear at this point that I'm in no way pushing anything on Creature, nor is anyone else. I admit I was a bit rude and that was uncalled for.

um can we lynch lemons? he isnt pushing, isnt voting and apparently doesnt have any reads either. this is scum territory

[rb]

I'll unvote him if you're so bothered by it. It doesn't matter either way for me.

UNVOTE: Creature

lol wtf

[rb]

town votes for the ppl they think are scum, they dont just vote randomly and unvote because other ppl dislike it.

[rb]

Lemons is scum. Loopdan is probably town. Last scum after lemons is in Destro/Sagittarius. Rest can be town by default but we should lynch within Destro/Sag/Lemons

[rb]

Tbh I've never seen the BP claim thing Loopdan? In fact, how is this suddenly a thing you're insistent on when all of our previous newbie games together you haven't even suggested it at all?

Because it's a new strategy that was just recently proposed by RC and literally nobody has been able to show how it doesn't benefit town.

Allowing everyone else to claim not BP while you sat there not talking about it

at all

is very scummy. Now refusing to claim BP or not BP is even worse. If you are scum you have the benefit of hearing the claims of others without being forced to limit your own claims. It preserves your ability to fake-claim later.

You have until the end of your next post to either do the claim or satisfactorily explain how refusing to do so benefits town more than you claiming BP/no-BP.

I refuse to teach players that the way to play mafia is to focus their efforts on trying to break down setups as opposed to reading and interacting with other players. It's how a bunch of people on this site play, and they're almost unanimously shit players who have low impact in every game they play and are terrible to be on a team with as either alignment.

RC's an idiot for bringing the strategy up, and obviously matrix6 is now due for an overhaul so that we don't end up with another generation of setup-speccing deadweights to the site. It benefits the players of this game to not rely on it, it benefits the entirety of MafiaScum to not teach newbies to play with these dumb strategies that are specific to specific setups. Any setup specific enough to warrant this type of play will have it known. We don't need to teach players to use gimmicks and the town winrates in newbie games are already fine.

How about you tell me how using and relying on this strategy actually improves a Newbie's learning experience of mafia, since that's the point of these games? How is reducing a bunch of new players to passively observing a strategy play out a better first game experience than to have them focus the bulk of their attentions on learning how to create activity and scumhunt/avoid being found?

[rb]

lmao, you obviously don't understand me if you think I'd bend to some poor strategy just to appease the rest of the town. I've been force-replaced from games for my vitriol when presented with situations like this where I believe that the strategy being followed is just bad form i.e. it's a short-term exploit that no one really benefits from using, and degrades the quality of games overall.

[rb]

These discussions are best left for after the game or in some other discussion topic. Right now we're balls deep into day 1 with the bp claim strat already in place.

At the point the BP claim strat was first mentioned by me, only 2 people had claimed (that I saw).

It's false to say I ignored it - it's a strat I disliked, and that a lot of people were NOT following. I disagreed with it, and it seemed that it wasn't really going ahead.

The strat picked up again and was assigned an arbitrary value of importance by Loopdan when he first replaced in. We're 'balls deep' in it because the strategy is being pushed, when previously I thought it had just fizzled out.

This shifting of focus by Loopdan onto the 'nonclaimers' as if they've been deliberately avoiding it, is fake and contrived. If not for the fact that I'm pretty sure the scum is in Lemons/Destro/Sag, I'd probably just vote at him. But realistically I really doubt that we don't hit 1 scum in those 3, and if the 2nd is still alive, we know where it is.

This is how I've always solved games, by finding a lynch order based on scumteams that I find unbelievable/impossible, and narrowing it down to the remaining. It's unconventional, but in games with 9-14 players I'm uncannily accurate and have found entire scumteams in all but 1 micro that I've played (i have 14 games with 9-14 players).

Call me anti-wincon, but this is a strategy that I know can be emulated and learned by newer players, that will actually improve them as players. Not a dud gimmick that helps propel them to a meaningless win in their first game.

[rb]

Sure there's a chance. But the most damning thing is rb's failure to speak up when others were claiming prior. Often in Newbie games the experienced players go out of their way to make sure the ne'er players don't claim unnecessarily. If he was really unfamiliar with this new day1 claiming strategy, and he was town, I would expect town!rb to make a ruckus about this much easier in the game when everyone was dropping their BP claims.

No one was actually claiming when I first brought it up. 2 people had done it. This became a 'thing' only after your replace in, and this is the first chance I've had to reply to the game since that.

Again this is fake and contrived, and a misrepresentation of how the game's actually progressed.

[rb]

@Tykus-- You nailed it. rb can disagree with the strategy. That's fine. But it's not ok to watch everyone else claim if you disagree with it and you are town and you say nothing to stop it from progressing. There is no town motivation in that.

Haha ye ill post from my telepathic link that allows me to know whats happening in the game without actually having had time to read because I've had to either work or study.

ca$h me ousside howbow dat

[rb]

7/9 slots had claimed before I ever showed up.
Try again.

lolno

[rb]

Kinda wish id just claimed BP to fuck with the game, but i know if i got lynched as town it sets a pretty shitty example as IC to lie as town and would be pretty demoralizing for the rest of the players and from a certain POV, anti-wincon.

[rb]

Wat.

Okay i see what's happened. My last post was 208 and I never got around to checking thread again until recently today. In between that time and your replace, there were more claims that I didn't see.

Again, what ruckus do you expect me to make if I'm not even here? It's not by your design the claims have happened, I get that now - but the statements that a town!rb would have made a ruckus or not sat by and let it happened? If it had happened while I was here, I'd have made one. I already expressed my dislike of it prior.

[rb]

Unless I missed someone, right now we're at:
Accountant- not BP
Aatami- not BP
Fykus- not BP
Me- not BP

Not BP either.

Not BP either by the way.

hey lemons I just found your claim on the bottom of your big post, I think what happened was I thought that part was your profile signature thing lol.

Kinda wish id just claimed BP to fuck with the game, but i know if i got lynched as town it sets a pretty shitty example as IC to lie as town and would be pretty demoralizing for the rest of the players and from a certain POV, anti-wincon.

If you had I would of got you lynched because I'd of known you were lying

Ya, I wouldn't do it because I'm town and its conceivably anti wincon. I see it as pro-entirety-of-mafiascum but I'd like to keep my ability to IC games by not 'throwing' (as some ppl might construe it).

[rb]

What transition?

I went from not being sure about destro to making a bunch of posts about the game, where I outlined why I like the push on destro. What information are you missing/not requiring?

[rb]

And from post 80 to about 180 I was on V/LA (mentioned multiple times)

Getting a bit bored of scumbuckets acting like me having a life outside of the vame is an indicator that I must not be town. Lynch any of lemons/destro/sagittarius

[rb]

I was barely reading the game, and I pointed out why I liked the push on destro - destro scum means accountant + creature slots are most likely town because neither one will be scum with destro, and I think destro might be scum as well.

[rb]

Lol "it doesnt matter if you were VLA"

LMAO

What the fuck would I say I'm VLA for? It means vacation/limited access. If I have limited access, I'm reading/responding to limited amounts of the game. It means a lot actually, that the parts of the game where my behaviour isn't congruent with the other parts of the game, just happen to coincidentally be the parts where I was V/LA.

But no, this must be some sort of weird conspiracy and nothing to do with the fact I was V/LA!!!

Illuminati confirmed

[rb]

I r8 this game 69/420 on a scale of 360 noscope to xxx_blazeit_xxx

[rb]

Are you a robot?

If I'm phoneposting in a few spare minutes of spare time when I'm busy doing other things, I'm obviously going to miss details of the game.

[rb]

The fact that I simply posted doesn't at all indicate whether or not I'm properly up to date with the game or not. Which I wasn't HENCE ANNOUNCING MYSELF AS VLA. And this is why you're in the scumpile, because this level of obtuse is really not believable.

[rb]

imagine if in the hundreds of posts in a mafia game people on VLA missed some of them whoa no way that's way too far fetched someone call the redundancy police we must correct this grave misunderstanding

[rb]

Rb, jeez, I'm not saying I expected you to be 100% caught up because you posted, I said you

saw the posts I mentioned

because you literally

commented

on the first and

quoted

the second one. It'd be cool if you said something like "oh damn, I guess I just didn't think about it :^)" but you're denying you completely didn't see them when you obviously did.

Anyway since I can't convince someone to scumread themselves and you think I'm scum and I think everyone else has enough information to come to a conclusion on whether you're scum I'm just gonna move on if that's OK.

Hmmm gonna go do other things first though ttyl

what posts are you even fucking talking about?

[rb]

Literally none of the posts of yours that I've quoted contain you stating that you're BP or not-BP Sagittarius, so what are you actually talking about you lying scumfuck?

[rb]

VOTE: Sagittarius

pls powerlynch this misrepping and lying scum fuckwit

[rb]

Are you even capable of following the basic things that I've said here? That I didn't realise people were still claiming/not claiming BP? That none of the fucking posts I quoted had any sort of claim in them? That a bunch of claims happened while I was away, and I never actually saw them?

That not a single fucking thing you're saying I'm being inconsistent about, is actually me being inconsistent - and I already mentioned that I obviously missed the claims between my last post and Loopdan's replace, and have since retracted what I said about Loopdan?

You're arguing about this shit and using it as ammunition because you're scum and forced to fabricate whatever sort of decent-sounding garbage argument you can manage to justify your scumread on me.

Can you come up with an actual reason for a scumread that isn't just you warping facts to fit your fake scumread?

[rb]

holy fuck i forgot how frustrating it was to play with newbies who focus on the most irrelevant minutia of the game

[rb]

@Fykus, 2 questions

1. how are you so certain Lemons is scum?
2. how are you so certain I'm Lemons' partner?

I actually can't find a single reason that you'd be so sure of this and tunneling me and viewing my attitude as 'distancing'.

[rb]

Actually lmfao, all he's done is ride the train since Loopdan came in and said that people should vote either me or Destro, places his vote on me and then suddenly he's completely certain that I'm scum with lemons based on these two things.

But then he acknowledges Lemons actually DID claim/not claim BP, and somehow, he still has Lemons/rb as his top2 scumreads - instead of re-evaluating based on the fact that Lemons DID claim.

So again: if it's on the basis of claims, why is Lemons still scum when you apparently made a mistake and missed his claim? How would that still make Lemons scum and me their partner? Huehue.

[rb]

I don't give up but I do get frustrated when people focus on minute details that are ultimately irrelevant to the game.

[rb]

Sag and I obviously wouldn't be a scumteam based on our interactions. Someone's already said as much too. Man I hate Lemons' last post with a passion as well as the fact they're inactive, then promise content, then V/LA right before deadline.

Literally offering nothing original and almost flaking on the game.

[rb]

@ICrb-- Given the situation we are now in, and with no BP claim, should everyone claim or no claim tracker? I think tracker claims should generally follow everyone no-claiming BP, as if there is a tracker we have tracker-doc and then the doc knows who to protect at night. But things have changed now and we are four days from deadline. Now I'm thinking we shouldn't have tracker (if there is one) claim. Your thoughts?

To everyone: Do not claim or even hint at

any

power roles you may have. Also do not even hint that you

don't

have a power role.

@rb-- I'd also like your thoughts on Creature.

@IC question: I don't think it's good to tracker claim, no. I don't really see a problem with playing as normal, then claiming later with a result if you get a guilty or at least the day before LyLo with whatever you have so far. 'Follow the Tracker' isn't powerful enough to warrant. Especially when if you lynch one scum and there's only 1 left, every tracker result is a hard-clear or hard-guilty. If there's a kill and you tracked someone with no result and only 1 scum is left - that person is confirmed town.

The only way to avoid confirming more town with 1 scum and a tracker alive, is to no-kill. But that's pointless as you're just delaying the inevitable and hoping you can influence daygame positively, which isn't something many scum would do in a 1vX (unless somehow the game's engineered itself to be really, really favourable to that 1 scum that's left. Unlikely though.)

I dunno, I just think that it's better to let PR's use their own wits and be unhindered by trying to break setups. It's better for learning and if people are good at it, it's just better generally. This setup stuff makes the game slightly more predictable early game which is 'nice' for town players, but not every setup is known or open, or able to be manipulated in these ways. So what do we want to teach newbies? I think that it's actually better play to use PR's for night actions and potentially getting clears/guilties, then having a deadline for them claiming (day3 for e.g.) to make sure they don't waste whatever results they have - I think many more games are won this way than by turning a PR into a gimped version by announcing who is actually the PR. It also means scum won't ever fake-claim, which means they can't fool you with it, but a fake-claim can also be CC'd and very rarely works in my opinion.

Long story short, I think that strategies like this don't do much for helping towns win, they just give the illusion of control which people misinterpret as meaningful. It's day1, you find a best option scum target and you lynch it. Then you move onto day2, and do it with more information.

Moreover, from my POV - the absolute best parts of the game to re-read when looking for scum are mid-late day 1 and early day 2. The absolute BEST by far. By turning the game into more of a controlled environment strategy game, you eliminate these parts of the game that are usually the most informative out of the whole game. It's just not worth it, I don't like strategies like this for a number of reasons. They make outcomes more 'predictable' for the early game, but I think they hurt the late game. It's an illusory benefit (in my opinion as IC).

My thoughts on Creature: this play is consistent with townplay I've seen before. He offers thoughts on most slots, finds a decent PoE, is willing to lynch anyone who doesn't do stuff that's town on Day 1. If Creature is scum I don't really see it. Maybe the fact he seems disengaged when normally he comes off as quite involved even when not posting that often (if that makes sense). He hasn't ignored any major happenings in the game though, he comments on the important wagons that form, he gives thoughts that run contrary to multiple others sometimes and didn't take the opportunity to mislynch me when I think if he tried, he could have done it if he was scum - and I think he would have tried if he was.

So, he's most likely town.

[rb]

At work, no time.

Lynch sag, not me.

[rb]

WP town

[rb]

I do!

I also had something that I wanted to say to rb if they're interested?

If it's about your strat, I think it's a shitcan way to teach Newbies to play - but I'd use it in a typical Open setup if it existed, yes.

As scum I nornally wouldn't have fussed over it at all but I didn't think that winning the game was as important as making the point that I think it's a bad way to learn to play. Wasn't aware of its existence in the beginning of this game but the next game I play I sure won't be using it.

For anyone wondering, some of the toxicity was scum motivated, some not.

[rb]

Also you played really well Pyra

[rb]

It was unlucky. I said you played well because I'm pretty confident that if not for destro you would have

@mhsmith: yeah it would have been better scum play to just not claim as scum and move on, but as IC I felt pretty conflicted about not saying something about why I don't like the strategy in a Newbie game and making a point of that. It was objectively a bad play for scum to do what I did, but I think the responsibility of being IC outweighs playing to win at all costs in a Newbie.

I still put the town into a pretty chaotic and confused state, and I think if I just went along with the strat to avoid being scumread I could have engineered this game to make either myself or pyra solo win (i would have roleblocked Fykus and had pyra kill Loopdan or Sagittarius).

But I think Newbies can learn as much from my mistakes, as well as the general reasons I dislike the claim strat, as much as they can from scum winning. I feel bad for pyra if anything

[rb]

would have been much harder to get lynched and had a lot of influence on the daygame*

[rb]

Is this our first time playing as opposite alignments Accountant?