Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[momo]

So that y'all can see it.

[momo]

Page top

[momo]

Second and third post

[KidAmn]

prefer momo to fitz/rels tbh
ooo is possible still but momo is acting like caught scum -- yeah trolling is nai but theres a certain willingness to do what the hell ever, etc. from that slot. in a scum!momo world, its not trolling -- its just that momo is in an information vacuum (all other scum are dead) and is acting out to get some feedback

kidamn, in my position where youre trying your best to contribute and its not good enough, and town has lynched right every time with only one scum left, would you or would you not be willing to get lynched so that town could stop getting distracted by your slot?

Only if I was completely, 100% sure that 100% conf-town would nail the last scum the next day, with no wiggle room. So outside of that incredibly unlikely scenario, no, I'd keep fighting.

[Tenshii]

Votecount 3.9

[L-2] havingfitz - Creature, outoforder, momo
[L-4] outoforder - havingfitz

Not voting: KidAmn, Rels, BlackVoid, cassielle

With 8 alive, a majority vote is decided with 5 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-27 10:45:00)

Rels has (expired on 2017-03-21 11:00:00) to post until being force-replaced.

Mod...v/LA until Monday

[cassielle]

prefer momo to fitz/rels tbh
ooo is possible still but momo is acting like caught scum -- yeah trolling is nai but theres a certain willingness to do what the hell ever, etc. from that slot. in a scum!momo world, its not trolling -- its just that momo is in an information vacuum (all other scum are dead) and is acting out to get some feedback

kidamn, in my position where youre trying your best to contribute and its not good enough, and town has lynched right every time with only one scum left, would you or would you not be willing to get lynched so that town could stop getting distracted by your slot?

Only if I was completely, 100% sure that 100% conf-town would nail the last scum the next day, with no wiggle room. So outside of that incredibly unlikely scenario, no, I'd keep fighting.

interestingly i am 100% sure that bv will 100% nail the last scum if he stops looking at me (whether due to accepting im probtown or just lynching me) so i mean, youve described my thought process there

[BlackVoid]

My problem this game is I'm stuck and no one's really doing anything. Hawk was easy to catch at the end because he opportunistically jumped onto Aubrey. Then it was rather obvious that Hap was scum because of how Hawk treated his wagon. Hap just made it easy by lurking and posting in a different game that he lurked to a win.

Outside of that, I don't know.

The biggest reason I suspect outoforder is his defense of Hap D2 and the Kop nightkill which I think he's most likely to make. But he also has some extremely non-partnerlike interactions with Hap at the beginning and end of D1 which I went into earlier.

With Fitz, his defense of Hawk towards the end of D1 is concerning but I'm still wondering why Hap would bus if he's partnered with Fitz. He'd have to know that Fitz would need to be bussed too. But then the way Hap gave up D2 seems like he wanted to be lynched over Fitz. If Fitz was town, I don't know if he'd put such an opportunistic L-1 vote that would turn the tide against him. My gut doesn't like the way Fitz pushed Hap. Hap's jump on Fitz after Aubrey voted him actually felt like a bus contrary to what Aubrey said. But I also thought the way Fitz pushed Hap based on Rels' and outoforder's reasons didn't make sense for a partner to do. I guess my reasons for townreading Fitz are the weakest.

Doomfeathers is the only reason to townread Momo. The newb-towntells I noticed were 1) Reading Fitz's meta to try to get a read on him, 2) Trying to break the setup, 3) Guessing the scumteam when he replaced out. On the other hand, we have the fact that he was on both the Kop and KidAmn wagons but not on Hap's. I'll actually have to look over to check what his reasons were.

Cassielle logically makes sense as scum because her interactions with both scum were really over-the-top. She defends Hawk all the way through and votes him at deadline despite voting for Kop making more sense at that point both because I, her biggest scumread was pushing Hawk, and because Hawk was a townread that'll actually contribute stuff. But it seems consistent with "lynch for information" stance so maybe she thought flipping Hawk green would give her the ammo to lynch me to following day? If that's the case it's actually a towntell.

So, that's four people I'm really not sure about and I'm trying to figure out who it could be.

Moving, on people I actually have townreads on, Creature pushed for Hap pretty consistently D1 and also took a hard stance to vote him over Fitz. KidAmn's reaction to Hap's case on him and tunnel are very unlikely to come from partners. I've written about their interactions with Hawk earlier so putting their interactions with both flipped scum together, I'm pretty sure they are town. Rels' progression on Hawk is actually quite good. He pushes him based on the contrived stuff Hawk posted about Rels and Hap. Hawk tried to be tying Rels and Hap together a lot. Rels' interaction with Hap was pretty good and it looked like Hap was bending over backwards to appease him similar to how he did with outoforder. He also pushed Hap D2 very early. The one thing that gave me pause was how he hesitated to vote Hawk D1 but I think it's outweighed by the massive evidence showing he's town.

So, I don't think it's Creature, KidAmn, or Rels. I believe it's one of the remaining four but I'm not sure who. We can't lynch all four so it's important to figure out who it actually is so I hope people actually continue posting analysis. I was pretty burnt out from posting in this game and re-analyzing the same thing twenty different ways. But we still have a week so hopefully we make progress. Anyone who disagrees with any of my reads, please explain why. Cass saying she'll vote whoever I want is actually the least helpful thing at this point.

[cassielle]

thoughts on each of those

1: ooo is top-tier scum, probably. scum have daytalk (check first post). he could have coached hap through those interactions. this isnt provable until postgame, but its a narrative that makes sense.
2: fitz has been dropping all day long in my reads. keep in mind scum dont need/want to read the game, he could have sheeped town reasoning on his partner to avoid giving away infotells (where he knows more than he should, is more perceptive than he should be, etc).
3: i think momo has enough significant play to read into separate from doom. doom felt town, but momo has felt insanely scum (opportunistic wagoning, seeing what targets stick, pointless shadethrowing) here. doom could have had help with his noobtown cover with hawk/hapa, but i agree that (unlike ooo) this requires an assumption of exceptional scumplay that isnt afaik warranted (we did lynch two of them already after all)

as for me, i am -- ok, d1 a wagon is prob gonna be on town no matter what, i mentioned that before yeah? i would really rather not have a wagon on my townreads, but that doesnt mean i would act like that about such a wagon
the real issue for me was the timing

last goddamned minute timing.

i didnt have the time to make an informed decision on your lynch target and i townread them hardcore. i got loud because the obvious thing to do would be to hop back on hap here (which still would have given us scum, interestingly enough) but you got momentum going and it made it impossible to fix.
if someone had unvoted before the mod locked the thread id have powerlynched them d2 over you tho, no-lynch was not an option in my mind

now, if i had to pick between kop and hawk there (which i did), why pick kop? kop gives us nothing, if hes scum we get no associatives, if hes town he doesnt narrow things down at all, and i townread him about as much as i did hawk
but i wasnt voting hawk in order to lynch you, tho i was ready to push your lynch D2 right up until he flipped red.
i was voting hawk because i wanted a no-lynch like i wanted a hole in my head and i wanted any lynch to be remotely useful

hawk had posted. associatives were there -- and as you can see for yourself they have been fruitful, you have some effective conftowns and you caught hapa. if he hadnt been scum there would have been good vca -- i felt he made himself look very town d1, so the vca would be nice and crisp if he flipped green
kop had... kind of posted? but no one but me was townreading him and my basis was weak. he didnt really interact with anyone. he just sort of sat in the background and grumped. if he flipped scum it'd be d1 with two fewer players in the game. meanwhile if he flipped green everyone would be pretty surprised except for me. in hindsight, given the gamestate as it is now, that would have been really easy to turn into a chain of mislynches (me, you, probably town!fitz, maybe town!rels), tho back then i was mostly concerned by the complete lack of progress a kop lynch would get us d1

i think i can see your point on rels tho? im not sure i buy it, but i can see the point

[cassielle]

looking over your list, ooo is the best lynch as presented
the biggest tell on d2 would be someone trying to push any wagon but hapa's in this gamestate i think
and ooo basically cloned my d1 play wrt hawk there without the reluctant vote

[KidAmn]

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

Because i don't feel like i need to ask you about it. From what i remember playing with you you will make your alignment clear to me before D1 ends even if i didn't prod you in any way. There is also a Rels-specific reason i am not willing to discuss yet.

But while you're at it, care to elaborate on this; This is what i believe to be a fact. You don't tend to participate in RVS / pressure vote shennies at D1 start, especailly towards a player you MUST know to not respond to being "pressured" by giving away his alignment as mafia. I mean like if i was scum i couldn't care less that there are people voting for me over absolutely nothing. You know that aswell so the only conclusions i can come to are that either (1) you actually think i am mafia, or (2) you are mafia.

So why do you think i am mafia? You really couldn't think i could possibly have - at this point of the game - a specific question to a specific player that i would not feel the need to ask you aswell, just because i have played with both of you before? In case there is option (3) aswell, feel free to tell me what that is.

It's hardly anything at this stage of the game and it can easily be explained as "teehee RVS shenanigans" but... I mean, it's there? And Ooo reacted to it so oddly with the whole "I'll know your alignment by the end of D1 anyway" thing, only to spend the first few pages scumreading Hapa and then backing off.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: KidAmn

Yeah no. You do not get to call the early situation a "clusterfuck" and then throw fuel on the fire.

And you don't get to vote for me and then not explain it at all. ^^

Weird little doubleteam here.

VOTE: havingfitz

I agree with Aubrey. Fitz's play feels a lot like what I've done as mafia in the past. He's asking a bunch of safe and pointless questions that aren't really productive one way or the other.

Hey, isn't this what part of Ooo's case on Fitz was later in the game, along with the failure to answer Ooo's own questions?

no. not mafia. blame me if i am wrong but not mafia in this game.

Aubrey's mindset seems totally different as mafia than here. Also he jumps on same sort of things he isn't jumping on here. Granted, i haven't seen a town game of his so point me out to one and i will rejudge.

"Definitely not Mafia. I don't have any town games to compare with, but definitely not Mafia." - this seems like a really odd leap to make, and contradictory to the whole "trying to meta is a newb-town tell" thing BV mentioned. Ooo gives the appearance of trying to meta, but only claims to read one side of Aubrey's game (in less than 7 minutes, impressive!) and be able to say "not mafia" with very little reasoning given.

Buuuuut then we have Hawk's first contribution to the game

VOTE: Creature

It's kind of ironic that I'm telling OOO to vote while forgetting to vote for anyone myself.

VOTE: Frederick E Campbell

who seems to be lurking at the moment.

Sorry, I'm putting less attention into this game rn.

You wrote on your wiki that that's a scumtell for you.

VOTE: Creature

Oh hi SlySly

Huh?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... to_Read_Me

Read the last sentence of paragraph 3.

You could say that just as easily as scum.

UNVOTE: Creature
VOTE: Frederick

outoforder, Rels, doomfeathers.

Let's fuse together to powertown this game.

I'm not convinced you're town, and I haven't read Rels yet. I'll help discuss, but I reserve the right to vote whoever I please.

I wish you people not voting would vote. I don't care if your the type of person who doesn't like to vote until you feel reaaal good about someone before voting them. Put your vote on the scummiest person so far already.

I'll consider what you've said.

But honestly, I think Aubrey's 222 seems a little to eager to end this day.
VOTE: Aubrey

Let's try to work as town anyways.

Do you mean you're scum, and you're trying to work as though you're town?

Wow.

In this post from a scum thread, Fredrick states that he as scum usually picks someone at random to question. Does this questioning fit that method? Could this be sloppy town, or is it more likely lazy scum?

Yeah, to some extent. This is only Fredrick's fourth game, and he doesn't appear to post much.

VOTE: hapahauli

Not really scummy. More less not-scummy.

Hang on, I think I've got a case.

VOTE: Kop

His posting tone seems bored and rather uncaring, which clashes strongly with his activity and content. I think he's scum trying to look town.

[boop]

VOTE: Fredrick

because I think he's lazy scum.

Uggggghhhh so yeah I thought that's what I saw. Doom really pings me because while he's been fairly active and has had good posts here and there a lot of it is pretty easy to fake as scum.

Doom flips his vote a lot with little actual say from himself on why or where or how. Particularly I find his vote against FEC just recently bothersome. You vote him for low content then give him benefit of being a newbie and not posting much then vote him again cause he's lazy scum? Naaaah dog lots of other people also fall under the low activity scummy feel than just FEC. Not that you don't point it out just you chose to focus here. Feels like low hanging fruit. He could be scum, but idk. posts are rather sporadic and feel very awkward like his interaction with creature early in the day, his questioning of the unvote just to post hey you said why two posts later so I get where some of the question of FEC comes from but I don't see why Doom votes Hapa for being not town enough, then Kop for case based off tone and activity (both of which are NAI) and back to Fred where you were before because he's lazy (despite you saying before) that he was new and doesn't post much from what you've dug out.

Which makes a lot of noise about Doom with not a ton of actual substance - his vote is "bothersome" and there are more people than FEC who are "low activity scummy", but somehow out of them all FEC is low-hanging fruit (bear in mind this is after FEC's little burst of 4 posts on D1 that looked like literal trash and even I was calling FEC out at that point...). The case also low-key chainsaws Hapa, which could be indicative of 2 scum bussing on their newbie partner?

Basically - if you go read MooginSoosy's posts, she gave townreads on me, Rels and Creature.
When being prodded about the townreads she retracted from all of them except for the townread on me. I don't understand why he townread Rels and Creature in the first place, since there is no real explanation. Basically the read on Rels she has shouldn't have been a townread in the first place since almost everything Rels has posted is why she retracted from the read... I don't understand the read - or the change of read - on Creature at all. I don't see the thoguht process. I don't understand the read on me either since she literally said she has a townread on me for a post she doesn't know why i even posted that?!?!?!? I mean like, wtf does that even mean or how can she come to a such conclusion. And i certainly don't like her vote on doomfeathers since i heavily disagree with the case.

The first post I made after coming back was from skimming what had happened, then I went back and changed my mind. I should've read before posting but I didn't, my bad.

I think you're town but I hated that wall post because you just say the same thing in different ways for half of it and it wasn't concise. Also you just seemed like you were making this huge revelation but it wasn't actually that life changing.

Creature is a mystery to me because the posts are so short. I thought he was town before but I think I was swayed by his whole "oh we should form a townblock with us 4 (rels doom OoO creature)"

I think one of the people in that group is scum and right now the only one who I think is definitely town in that is you

Be more concise OoO, but not as concise as Creature cause I can't read that.

Please expand your reads. What about creatures posts are scrummy? Same with Rels and Doom if you please.

If I didn't know better I'd say this was Hawk coaching Ooo into the game.

Kinda skimming through the next few pages as Hawk goes from "I'll let Hapa get back then jump on his wagon" to "I'll support Hapa's wagon the minute I get back and forget I was SRing him"... man, how did that take so long to spot.

Uggghhhh fuck it.

I'm really losing interest in this game because I'm having a hard time not being drawn to my natural tendency to question low activity which in turn usually leads me to looking hypocritical. I told myself I'd try and be less emotional and gut based and try and find scum smartly this time not over activity based NAI Garbo but I'm slowly losing interest.

Kop is coasting and hasn't placed a vote outside of RVS. It feels really off to me especially with all his rebuttals being dismissive and not pushing towards scumhunting himself. This compounded with the fact that his one actual push back against Doom earlier didn't follow up with a vote anywhere really irks me.

KidDamn is in a similar boat for me he's coasting by along with weak cases based off twisted information and hypocrisy.

Creature bugs me because he's been really laid back and almost uninvolved in this game. I read his wiki and apparently this is pair for the course for him. Seems fine I guess if I didn't think meta can easily be manipulated honestly it's what scares me most of all about creature since his "meta" is so indifferent his ability to manipulate is going to be easy to fool. He retorted eariler that he can't fake his "expression". If I'm taking expression to mean reaction on the similar vein that reactions are instantaneous and quick. This is forum Mafia. Anything on an emotional level can be faked by scum if they take the time to do so. Creatures meta being so disinterested d1 makes it easy for him to manipulate and move past that d1 phase by faking his expressions.

Hapa hasn't wowed me with his rebuttals as of late mostly because it continues to be no one has reason to scumlean me and less following up and pressuring his scumreads aka KidDamn and idk who else because idk if he leaned anyone else besides fitz.

Rels and OoO are off playing Mafia on TL forums and responding with meta alignments and indications I wanna vomit at how much all of their case against Hapa initially was noise and I couldn't dig into it myself. (I won't reread previous games to a great length to try and disecting scum and townie behavior as it often can just be a waste of time and I don't really have enough IRL to reread 3+ games per player to dig into their meta, if I know you from a previous game I may already be predisposed by memory but I try and ignore that because human memory is a faulty thing)

Cassiele replaces into a slot with such low quality of play and lack of posts that honestly I want to forget FEC even said anything earlier. I actually took a second since Doom seemed so confident and linked a game of his about how his scum play is garbage and read it. I skimmed I saw he is 14 years old or claims to be and from a quick look has no idea how to play this game and is reeks of newbie so I won't try to evaluate any play of his when he's replacing out due to stress.

Aubrey against my better judgement looks differently from the last game I played with him but his scum game was very good and I heavily townread him early that game as well and I rearly don't want to have a repeat of falling into traps set before. Plus meta is NAI so fuck my head for having a hard time disconnecting last game from this game. Also in response to what Aubrey said about activity. Yeah town self imploded in Tit for Tat 664. One of the reasons I've been very laid back this game is because my play was super sloppy in that game and eventually it led to my mislynch but I'm starting to feel that same apathy I felt D1 and d2 of that game and can't sit back anymore.

Rant over.

I'll respond about more people when I can. I am at work and was trying to read and catch up but don't have time to fully flesh out my thoughts right now so I'll stop here.

Bolded part is interesting. Tying Ooo to Rels as if they're acting as a pair. It almost feels like Hawk wants these to players to be linked together... which would be useful if say, the last scum is in there with a townie, and between them scum were to link the pairing together tightly enough.

Holy shit, Ooo goes missing for a long long time while the D1 wagon on Hapa is hapa-ning.

Right now Kop, Kid, Moogin and Rels are all pinging me as possible scum but not all together. And Rels is more associative than actually there.

So Hawk goes to the trouble earlier of linking Rels/Ooo as a partnership, and then makes sure Rels is on his scumlist, but only weakly. Hm.

I am up to p27. Unfortunately the finnish wifi in trains is shit and i hought i would have a bit time yesterday despite hoing to visit friends outside my home country.

I am gonna finish catching up tonight and then gollow up on haps and i also got some questions for cassielle.

For now UNVOTE: hapahauli

And quietly, Ooo hops off the Hapa wagon D1. Ooo spends the rest of the day promising/saying they need to re-read Hapa, then returns to tunnelling the shit out of Fitz' asshole.

I'm here ready to flip onto Hapa whenever. I just want Rels and OoO's catchup.

OoO we have less time than you think we only have a day and a few hours left right?

No worries. It can be frustrating when people talk past each other which is what this conversation felt like. Just catch up and lay out your thoughts in detail. I think that'll help me a lot more in seeing where you are coming from.

I have caught up and i want to lynch fitz for the rrasons i have stated.

Fuck i am so waffling on hapa... i really honestly have no clue about his alignment atm. If rels was not a dickhead and didnt tell me to go read the last game hapa played i would think he is magia but... ugh... i am not going to oppose the lynch (until or if hapa gives me a reason to) if thats what you wanna do.

Idk who else is scum, unfortunately. Thankfully i dont have to know rn.

One scum ready to commit to the Hapa wagon (although amusingly it ends up going the other way), one 'waffling' and sticking to their precious tunnel on Fitz. Until...

I seriously believe we should murder fitz, or possibly Kop. Maybe hawk is the third scum but idk. I am not too confident on that.

Can you guys please go read fitz' filter and tell me how any of his reasoning for scumreads ever makes anyone mafia?

Suddenly, Ooo has been swayed and is weak SRing Hawk out of nowhere. Funny that. Hapa is on the middle of the Hawk wagon, Ooo is the hammer. Scum has daytalk. Do I need to spell this out? Hawk is around for the hammer, posts shortly after...

D2 - Remember way up there at the top of this case where I mentioned Hawk tying Ooo/Rels together earlier on?

You, BV, Cass and momo town. Am I missing someone?

I kinda think Kop is town too because after Aubrey wagon got derailed i believe scum were trying to lynch Kop. That has to be the case unless we assume scum are playing like complete idiots and didn't even try to get anyone lynched. I also believe there is never more than 1 mafia in the Hawk wagon, so at least one of Hapa and Rels has to be town. For your townreads i do agree.

Basically i am left with:

havingfitz
KidAmn
(Hapa/Rels)

Rels had some posts that i found out possibly coming from scum!Rels. Hapa wagon was gladly accepted by almost all of the players, so idk.. that probably makes him town? I have to look back and see who actually weren't willing to lynch Hapa and if that could mean something. KidAmn fits as scum though, since while imo he was one of the "easy lynches" for scum to try push on (if town), he wasn't really being pushed while making some posts i found super irrational.

Idk if Rels would vote for Hawk like that as mafia so i am puzzled about that too. I'd have to check back some older games and how Rels has played as mafia when i get a chance to. The fact however is that Rels is usually a player who tries to drive the thread as scum, and there are a LOOOOT of "good" cases to be made (from scum perspective) on D1. I am not quite sure why he didn't take the chance assuming he is scum as he for sure had plenty of those chances.

Ooo has a scumread on Rels suddenly, and a townread on hapa after pushing him a bunch at the start of D1. Weird inversion, and one that lines up neatly with the Ooo/Rels partnership that was mentioned a lot D1 and emphasised by Hawk.

Rels is probably mafia tbh.

Reading further i'd like to correct myself, i am sure Rels is mafia.

Let's play a fun game called "how long does it take Ooo to post a substantive case on Rels". Place your bets, folks!

I mean like posts #1232 and #1247 super easily always made Hawk mafia.
First he is happy you are trying to push the conversation forwards, when he ends up on you you are super terrible player just like the scum!Aubrey (as he "believed" Aubrey is mafia) said just a couple of moments before....

If Hapa is scum here why does Hawk say this though (in #1232):

OoO, BV, and Rels all still kinda townread Hapa and are posturing around the lynch. Of not OoO refuses to vote Aubrey but doesn't seem with happy with Hapa's lynch either... which is a really weird place to be 10 hours before deadline...

Anyone who has read my posts before this has to know i am never going to vote for Aubrey here. What's the point of "triggering me" (because if Hapa is scum and i take the bait i will 100% vote for Hapa out of those 2) here?

"Hawk was always mafia" - player who literally never went near the Hawk lynch until it was hammer time.

VOTE: Hawk

If we're not voting Aubrey, I'm fine with this. I don't remember anything he's posted, which according to my self-meta, probably means he's mafia.

Like this is a super suicidal post at the point it came out if Hapa is mafia. There is still Aubrey wagon, there are people discrediting you BV for "changing your mind so many times", not all of those people can even be mafia. Why does he just do this instead of doing ANYTHING else (he has already had his vote on BOTH Aubrey and Kop)?

Explaining why Hapa can't be scum because of when/how he hopped on the Hawk wagon. Still waiting for that Rels case, BTW.

Is it normal for town-Hap to sheep?

idk to be honest.

But waaaaait a minute, this is the Ooo who in #26 claimed he would know Hapa's alignment before the end of D1! Gosh, that's confusing, how can he claim to know Hapa this well, but not know if town-Hapa sheeps? Gee folks, can you guess? (Rels case? Rels case? Anyone seen a Rels case? Nope.)

I agree Hapa looks the worst in the game right now. It feels superficial.
The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.
Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.
Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.
I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

I mean this post in itself is so fucking scummy it hurts

I just... I just wanna put this in a frame and leave it there. Look at it.

401 looked like he was already planning for Hap to come back to the thread and look town

Yes! That is what caught my eye too when i took time to read his filter today. I agree i am terrible at reading Rels early on when he just agrees with me and doesn't do any retarded shit he sometimes does (mainly calls me out for some easily detectable bullshit reason). I jsut tend to ignore his posting and say he is town until he does something really townie (or not - like here, and i will go reread him).

Just look at this:

The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.

this is never something hapa said. this is rels' interpretation of what hapa said. i know i agreed with rels on this at the time, the difference is i was trying to figure out hapa's motives, rels never did any of that, just called him scum for it.

Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.

So what Rels basically says here cancels this argument totally. "Hapa is scum for attacking KidAmn for weak reasons and when he realizes they are weak reasons he is scum for that too." That's literally what happened if you think from a town!hapa point of view. There is no way to tell if hapa is scum making shit up or if he just blundered in the first place. But the fact is BOTH of these things in Rels' opinion make hapa mafia...

Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.

"Hapa is voting for havingfitz which i don't have a problem with but he is scum for it because easy target. I myself scumread people who are easy targets like KidAmn, Kop and FEC (a bit later on)." Rels should know better, he should know that being an easy target doesn't make anyone town, and suspecting someone who is "lurking" or an "easy target" doesn't make the person scum. It is an invented narrative to call someone scum based on something that doesn't make people scum.

I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

"I am not seeing obvious town hapa here and i didn't read him town at this point in the last game either" so... idk even know what to say here...

Cause your filter, ISO, whatever you're calling that here, is awful.
The "I don't like this guy but I won't explain why 'cause it's just an impression but actually it wasn't very serious". Weird way to start the game.
The "LOOK IM PARTICIPATING" comment that you're making on the setup / way to play. While you don't have posts that matter yet. It looks like scum trying to appear being active. "RVS shouldn't be stopped!" "We shoudln't all arm the same night!"
Then the rest of your posts are useless but I don't care about that, townies can make useless posts. I really don't like these two points though

I find scum knowing where town is.

TBF you also look pretty bad there: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=27374
LOL this makes me think of your "MM WE SHOULD NOT ALL ARM THE SAME NIGHT" post though:

Funny, because as scum I try to look active but I end up lurking. As town it's like the opposite.

How the fuck can I find a scumgame of yours easily. This forum is hard to use

Creature had lots of shit posts in his town games too, especially early.

Caught up.
Hapa is scum.
Kop is most likely scum.
Aubrey rayn and hawk are townie.
Creature and doom are super town.
So most importantly Hapa is scum. Let's murder him.

Creature seems super town because he's posting all the time. When he's being townread by people with influence in the thread. He doesn't like being play, source : his wiki and his scum games. Here we have a mix of some I-dont-care-what-you-think posts and good activity.
MAYBE he's tryharding. We'll see if he drops off. But he seems super town.

Now see this read progression:
-> Creature has a lot of shitposts
-> *goes reading his games*
-> Creature has a lot of shitposts as town too
->

MAGICALLY THOSE SHITPOSTS ARE NOT ANYMORE SHITPOSTS, NOW THEY ARE "I-dont-care-what-you-think posts and good activity".

nononono Rels, you're scum here.

We finally got there folks, A CASE ON RELS pleaseignorethatit'smostlyfullofshitandattacksalogicalreadprogressionasscummy

Another fact is that Rels ignores me and my stuff basically ONLY when i am accusing his scumbuddy. I also know this doesn't apply here unless havingfitz is mafia, so there you go.

Rels is also scum because Fitz is scum, and Ooo has been tunnelling Fitz. So uh... ta-da?

Speaking of tunnelling Fitz - straight back to it after a lengthy diatribe with Rels that goes nowhere amid a lack of support:

Anyways i am gonna take a shower and then i am gonna gather up all the questions fitz has asked me this game and quote my answers from my filter and then i am gonna call him a liar scum again.

Shockingly, I'm actually going to agree with Rels and ask you for an explanation here Cass. You're making it sound like you want Rels and I to keep dancing for your amusement here and I'd rather not continue until I know the tune.

Just let it go for now, when the elaboration comes we can figure out if it makes sense or not.
If it's her "wanting Rels and you to keep dancing for her amusement" it's gonna show.

Wait a minute, didn't you SR Rels just a few pages ago? Wouldn't you want to hear what Cass has to say here regarding ostensibly your 2nd highest SR at this point?

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since

he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

oh my...
i so do this when i am mafia. i so do just the same because i am an arrogant prick. ^_^

Looking back, this post looks really... really... REALLY weird to make as Town-Ooo.

Actually my outoforder townread lessened a bit. If Hap flips scum, I want to look more closely there. His D1 was incredibly town but his arguments for Hap being town today have been a stretch. Who is your best guess for the third scum?

Mine? Idk. Rels or KidAmn.

I am going to now tell you something. There is absolutely no way there is 2 mafia in me/Hapa and Rels. You can choose to not believe me but that is 100% going to be the truth this game. I know i am not mafia and there is literally no way either of me and Rels would have treated Hapa early on in the game like we did in case he was mafia. Maybe you are right and Hapa is mafia, i just don't believe it.

If you're going to lynch him based on an association with Hawk (and me) then i might just aswell stop posting, because there is probably not a way to change your mind. I've said everything i have to say about that. I just don't believe you're right here on his alignment.

At least i am going to vote for mafia.
VOTE: havingfitz

Trust And Believe. This Thing Cannot Be Because I Say So, And If You Disagree I Will Throw My Toys Out Of The Pram.

And i really don't care about the third scum right now because when we lynch havingfitz we can lynch both of the people who can possibly be mafia.

"If it's not Fitz, it has to be these two" - boy, does this ever smell like someone setting up their next mislynches.

Also remember there is never going to be more than 1 mafia in the Hawk wagon.
Never ever never.

In light of the Hapa flip, this is really interesting. Setting up insurance for yourself here, Ooo?

I just offered myself being lynched over a townie so Rels can what??? "get towncredit"? (when me - Rels interaction caused the whole thing in the first place). I am sorry, smart mafia teams do not do that. Especially when it would leave 1 mafia alive which has a chance of instantly losing the game if you shoot the wrong person.. They just simply agree to lynch the townie.

"Mafia would never do X. I am doing X, so I must not be Mafia" - aka one of the most flawed arguments I've seen all game.

Ooo then stays off the Hapa lynch, and his first posts of the day are:

Dat retarded night kill though.

Idk, doom looked really level-headed and not scummy at all.
It's going to be fitz. There are no reasons to townread him, ever, in this game. I am gonna call you all bad if it's fitz. I accept being called bad if it's not.

I just dont see anyone else being mafia, espectially after that dumbass NK.

First it's a dumbass NK, then it's

It's probably momo not paying attention at all.

Not really. If it's fitz he just needs me + momo lynches and suddenly he is in lylo with Cassielle and KidAmn. BlackVoid hard townreads him for some weird reasons, same does Cassielle. That's an endgame i would take as mafia, probably his best shot. Maybe he thought people have wifomed and didn't arm up on N1 (for the record i was a little sad when i saw Aubrey flip without a mafia flip since it's always correct play for EVERY townie to arm up on N1 and not wifom it in case there is a mafia lynch - apparently people didn't really think about these setup stuffz.. You gain a mislynch regardless of if mafia shoots someone or doesn't on N1).

Suddenly a really slick plan on Fitz' part. Weird, that.

I am still going to say that whoever of BV/Rels/Creature is alive at lylo should be auto-lynched because they are good enough to solve the game and they will have (after D2) 4 weeks to solve this game with at least 2 of them being alive. If they cannot do that and end up on retarded reads like this, they should be lynched. Always. Even if Fitz is alive at lylo i would lynch onto whoever of those three is alive because they deserve to lose the game whatever alignment they are at that point.

Setting up more lynches, with the time-honoured classic "it doesn't matter what alignment they are, they DESERVE the lynch".

This ^ vote is scummy as sh*t. If you are town, you do not vote out of anger on D3. Calm yourself down and focus on the game.

It's not though. I did the same thing earlier.

"It's not scummy, I did it earlier."

tl;dr

Vote: Outoforder

Let's fucking end this already.

[BlackVoid]

That's actually a really good case. The biggest thing holding me back was not outoforder's posts so much as how Hap interacted with outoforder. Do you think Hap's posts to outoforder fit better as partners than scum trying to get on a townie's good side?

[KidAmn]

I think there's enough of a mix of pseudo-push (see the RVS back and forth) and alignment such as

@ Fitz

And we get to the gist of me pining Aubrey. "trying to ask questions that don't exactly amount to much." This is the expansion of me "pinging" you. So my 6 posts in the first 2 pages of D1 are suspect because I am asking questions. WTF? Wait...asking questions surely isn't bad....it's that they don't amount to much (your opinion btw). Let's ISO/analyze those 6 posts.

19 - RVS on OoO (with a gameplay assist). No question.
24 - Asking Creature about his scum impression on Aubrey. HTF is that a bad question?
30 - Still engaged with Creature. A courtesy question to OoO followed by a question to understand his early hana suspicions...are they based on MS or a different site. And this is bad because?
34 - Banter with Doom and a thank to Creature for giving an actual response.
43 - Trying to figure out wth Creature is talking about when he says "there are many players being boring there". I thought he might have been referring to a different mafia site (ala TLM) and therefore possibly a 4th member of the TLM bunch.
51 - This is essentially a passive aggressive dig on my part at Doom to say he doesn't need anyone's approval to ask anything. This on the heels of a game we just played where I thought he put too much credence into the opinions of other players.

So there are my D1 first two page pre Aubrey pinging posts. Please let me know which questions you have issue with.

It's not any particular questions I have issues with. Asking questions isn't bad. Asking questions that don't accomplish much is scummy. Perhaps how valuable questions are is subjective, but multiple people have taken issue with it so far.

Also, there's an irony on calling OoO's post a hard to read wall of text, yet making one yourself that's arguably harder to read. For example, I have to read that whole post really carefully to arrive at any of your conclusions and reads. Care to comment?

and the weird case on Fitz with the hedging from D1

Fitz

still is probably my second strongest read. I did not like his "wall-o-text" catchup post in the least bit. It's like he made it intentionally super hard to read, while criticizing OoO's wall for being hard-to-read.

Though two things give me pause (and have me wanting KidAmn dead first):
1) Multiple people have been complaining about OoO's post-length, which makes it possible that being anti-wall-of-text is some standard mafiascum meta thing.
2) I've seen townies do the "post while catching up wall-of-text" before, and they always read as very awkward/scummy to me.

I think there's a chance that Fitz is just a really awkward poster. Not a large chance, but certainly more of a chance than KidAmn.

that aligns with Ooo for it to be the case. After Cass replaces in he references the case Ooo/Rels made on him before backing off D1, but goes after Cass when she runs with it. Most of the references to Ooo are relying on offsite meta, such as

So naturally, I'm super fucking hypersensitive to this, because no matter what I choose, I am read as mafia, and no one takes my cases seriously.

And if you're wondering if you should take me seriously, ask Rels or OoO about my success rate in lynching mafia D1.

and prompting Ooo on his Fitz case

@OoO

What do you consider particularly damning about Fitz's read progression? You should know that stuff making sense =/= mafia.

I'd rather be lynching into Kop, mostly because there's hypocrisy and contradiction in his filter, combined with his play looking like he's laying low through the important thread events.

that I'm confident in it. Hawk was a lot more belligerent towards Ooo D1

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

And the sudden change in the Hapa/Ooo interaction post-Hawk flip feels like distancing, although that's as much about Hapa trying to lurk his way through the day as anything - although the posts I referenced above about Ooo going from "I'll know Hapa's alignment by EOD1" to "IDK if he sheeps lol" illustrate this sudden shift as much as anything.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, I had forgotten how scummy some of outoforder's D2 posts have been. I've been thinking over all the possibilities and this is the only one that makes sense. I'll think it over for a few more hours but I'm probably going to vote there.

[Creature]

Hey so we fearlynch outoforder today and we hope I don't die?

[momo]

If general consensus wishes an OOO lynch, I will be there. Looking over the game for the past hour, it does make sense.

[BlackVoid]

Hey so we fearlynch outoforder today and we hope I don't die?

How are you getting the idea that outoforder is a fear lynch as in we lynch him because we're afraid of him? On balance, the evidence points to him as scum.

1. His interaction with Hawk was minimal and Hawk just happened to be a third scumread for him close to end of D1.
2. His absolute insistence that both of Hawk's partners wouldn't bus him and townreading Hap for the bus vote despite it looking like a bus vote.
3. Ignoring all the evidence that points to Hawk avoiding the Hap wagon and coming up with increasingly convoluted reasons to townread him.
4. The Kop nk which makes most sense from someone that wanted to shake up the gamestate. The last scum who was widely suspected did this in my last game.

Momo's last post doesn't make me feel any better about him but it's more likely outoforder is scum than doom. Fitz sticking with his Hap push even after Hap backed off of him feels town. After re-reading Cass's D1, I just have a hard time seeing scum make that much of a splash. If you really believe Momo is scum, then explain to me in-depth why. You just keep repeating that Momo's activity level makes him scum which isn't very convincing. But I'm listening to any other arguments that you might have.

[Creature]

Nah, I won't oppose outoforder at all.

[Creature]

Though, if he's town, we could lynch momo next day. If he also flips town then idk.

[cassielle]

im v happy with an ooo lynch (and kidamns megapost p much sealed that)

if ooo comes up green my best bet would be momo also, like creature says
i was initially thinking maybe kidamn if ooo is green, but no, quotewalled masterposts are all through his iso, its just hes had a long period of relatively smaller posts (which are also consistent with his d1 iso)

VOTE: outoforder

momo is too opportunistic for me to not keep an eye on that slot tho, if theres a d4 lynch it

[BlackVoid]

If there's a D4 and I'm not in it, just spend a lot of time gamesolving and don't quicklynch. Just having the thread go on for a while outs scum. I recently finished a game modded by Creature where the last scum outed himself the day before lylo. I'm 100% on outoforder but as sure as I could be.

VOTE: outoforder (L-1)

[Creature]

You have my permission to hammer, but I don't want to do it myself.

[BlackVoid]

Hey Momo, hammer please.

[outoforder]

UNVOTE: havingfitz
VOTE: outoforder

It's amazing how you fail to lynch the most obvious scum on the planet. Well done boys!
BV don't bother to msg me after all. I don't really wanna play with someone who thinks i would ever shoot one of my top mislynchs as mafia after all.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, if he's town and I'm dead, lynch Fitz before Momo I guess.

[outoforder]

No, lynch everyone else because you're all scum. Being wrong ONCE equals being scum and you've all been wrong more than i have in this game.