Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:34 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 98, Albert B. Rampage wrote:
In post 83, Almost50 wrote:Also,
Scum are likely to hammer most wagons
, so keep an eye on the hammerers. It doesn't have to be the same person, as they can pass it on to the most TR member of their team.
This doesn't seem likely at all, actually.

I've considered many strategies and decided that the best way of moving forward is to not discuss the balls at all.

VOTE: Almost50
Well, if you were planning on hammering the wagons to collect the balls; I'm SORRY I ruined it for you, Mr Scumster!ABR. :P

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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:35 am

Post by Alisae »

VOTE: Almost
I really don't see how that post is AI?
Like, at all?
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:38 am

Post by Almost50 »

UNVOTE:

3 Town leans and no Scum leans so far.

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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:39 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 102, Alisae wrote:VOTE: Almost
I really don't see how that post is AI?
Like, at all?
<snarky response clipped>

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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:41 am

Post by Tywin Lannister »

In post 86, Almost50 wrote:Personally, I will be passing the balls randomly but never twice to the same player, and that's if I lay my hands on any at all.
This stuff if fine and sounds good, but here's the issue: whoever hammered a lynch, scum would probably know that person now has a dragon ball. If they hammered scum who have them, then scum would know for sure. So the person to hammer probably will become a target. Can dragon balls be passed around at any time? If it's only at night, then which resolves first, the NK or dragon ball passing? This may be in the rules that I barely skimmed, but if not, it's a question worth asking. Say I hammered scum who had multiple dragon balls. Scum would know immediately that I got them all, right? So then my best play is to pass them to a conf town or someone I hard TR to avoid scum getting them in case I then become the NK target. Right?
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:42 am

Post by Imperium »

Will respond when not on my phone walking out the door, but Tywin are you an alt or are you as new as your start date says?
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:44 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

In post 105, Tywin Lannister wrote:If it's only at night, then which resolves first, the NK or dragon ball passing?
The ball transfer resolve first. If you hammer someone with a ball, you can pass the ball, and the scum will NK you and get no ball.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:57 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 105, Tywin Lannister wrote:g. Say I hammered scum who had multiple dragon balls. Scum would know immediately that I got them all, right? So then my best play is to pass them to a conf town or someone I hard TR to avoid scum getting them in case I then become the NK target. Right?
It IS in the Mechanics post. Passing balls resolves before NKs, and TOWN can only pass balls at night, while Scum can do it anytime except when they're the leading wagon.

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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:58 am

Post by Alisae »

In post 103, Almost50 wrote:3 Town leans
Who might these be?
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:03 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 109, Alisae wrote:
In post 103, Almost50 wrote:3 Town leans
Who might these be?
Tywin, I,perium, and I forgot the third one, though I remember they had a cute avatar that they just changed into one that's not nearly as cute.

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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:03 am

Post by Alisae »

In post 110, Almost50 wrote:
In post 109, Alisae wrote:
In post 103, Almost50 wrote:3 Town leans
Who might these be?
Tywin, I,perium, and I forgot the third one, though I remember they had a cute avatar that they just changed into one that's not nearly as cute.
lmaaaaaaaaaaao
Why are you TRing them?
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:07 am

Post by ɀefiend »

Balls are already serving as a distraction since people are making illogical statements. HUGE math wall ahead:

Spoiler:
Assuming 3 scum: We know there are 7 balls.

I. ai) Assuming scum started with 1 ball, we mislynch a ball-less person today, all townies pass any balls in their possession to a target at random, and scum hold their ball:
Probability that all balls end up with a townie: 0
Probability that all balls end up with the scumteam: (3/11)^6 = 4.1%
Probability that scumteam gains at least 1 ball: 1-(8/11)^6 = 85.2%
--Scum still get a NK. If each player is holding, on average, (6/12) = .5 balls after balls have been passed, then scum control 1+(3*.5) = 2.5 balls and will gain an average of .5 balls on kill. This means that
after a night of passing randomly
, scum will control, on average, 3 balls.

aii) Assuming scum started with 1 ball, we mislynch a ball-less person today,
no
townies pass any balls, and scum hold their ball:
Probability that all balls end up with a townie: 0
Probability that all balls end up with the scumteam: 0
Probability that scumteam gains at least 1 ball: 0
--Scum still get a NK. Let's assume that the remainder 6 balls were distributed randomly among all townies, so each townie is holding, on average (6/9) =.666 balls. Scum gain an average of .666 balls on kill. This means that
after a night of not passing
, scum will control, on average, 1.666 balls.

bi) Assuming scum started with 1 ball, we mislynch a person with 1 ball today, all townies pass any balls in their possession to a target at random, and scum hold their ball:
First, the probability that scum gained the lynched person's ball, if the hammerer is random, is (3/12) = 25%.
Probability that all balls end up with a townie: 0
Probability that all balls end up with the scumteam: (.75)(3/11)^6 + (.25)(3/11)^5 = 6.9%
Probability that scumteam gains at least 1 ball (from passing): (.75)(1-(8/11)^6) + (.25)(1-(8/11)^5) = 83.8%
--Scum still get a NK. If each player is holding, on average, (.75)(6/12) + (.25)(5/12) = .48 balls after balls have been passed, then scum control (.75)(1+3*.48)+(.25)(2+3*.48) = 2.69 balls and will gain an average of .48 balls on kill. This means that
after a night of passing randomly
, scum will control, on average, 3.17 balls.

bii) Assuming scum started with 1 ball, we mislynch a person with 1 ball today,
no
townies pass any balls, and scum hold their ball:
Probability that all balls end up with a townie: 0
Probability that all balls end up with the scumteam: 0
Probability that scumteam gains at least 1 ball (from hammering): (3/12) = 25%
--Scum still get a NK. Let's assume that the remainder 5 balls were distributed randomly among all townies, so each townie is holding, on average (5/9) =.555 balls. Scum gain an average of .555 balls on kill. This means that
after a night of not passing
, scum will control, on average, (.25)(2+.555) + (.75)(1+.555) = 1.805 balls.

II. ai) Assuming scum started with 1 ball, we lynch a ball-less mafioso today, all townies pass any balls in their possession to a target at random, and scum hold their ball:
Probability that all balls end up with a townie: 0
Probability that all balls end up with the scumteam: (2/11)^6 = 0.04%
Probability that scumteam gains at least 1 ball: 1-(9/11)^6 = 70%
--Scum still get a NK. If each player is holding, on average, (6/12) = .5 balls after balls have been passed, then scum control 1+(2*.5) = 2 balls and will gain an average of .5 balls on kill. This means that
after a night of passing randomly
, scum will control, on average, 2.5 balls.

aii) Assuming scum started with 1 ball, we lynch a ball-less mafioso today,
no
townies pass any balls, and scum hold their ball:
Probability that all balls end up with a townie: 0
Probability that all balls end up with the scumteam: 0
Probability that scumteam gains at least 1 ball: 0
--Scum still get a NK. Let's assume that the remainder 6 balls were distributed randomly among all townies, so each townie is holding, on average (6/10) =.6 balls. Scum gain an average of .6 balls on kill. This means that
after a night of not passing
, scum will control, on average, 1.6 balls.

bi) Assuming scum started with 1 ball, we lynch a mafioso with 1 ball today, and all townies pass any balls in their possession to a target at random:
First, the probability that scum gained the lynched person's ball, if the hammerer is random, is (2/12) = 16.7%. If this happens, scum obviously won't pass their ball.
Probability that all balls end up with a townie: (.833)(1/11)^7 = .000004%
Probability that all balls end up with the scumteam: (.833)(2/11)^7 + (.167)(2/11)^6 = .001%
Probability that scumteam gains at least 1 ball (from passing): (.833)(1-(9/11)^7) + (.167)(1-(9/11)^6) = 74.5%
--Scum still get a NK. If each player is holding, on average, (.75)(7/12) + (.25)(6/12) = .5625 balls after balls have been passed, then scum control (.833)(2*.5625)+(.167)(1+2*.5625) = 1.292 balls and will gain an average of .5625 balls on kill. This means that
after a night of passing randomly
, scum will control, on average, 1.85 balls.

bii) Assuming scum started with 1 ball, we lynch a mafioso with 1 ball today, and
no
townies pass any balls:
Probability that all balls end up with a townie: 0
Probability that all balls end up with the scumteam: 0
Probability that scumteam gains at least 1 ball (from hammering): (2/12) = 16.7%
--Scum still get a NK. Let's assume that the remainder 6 balls were distributed randomly among all townies, so each townie is holding, on average (6/10) =.6 balls. Scum gain an average of .6 balls on kill. This means that
after a night of not passing
, scum will control, on average, (.167)(1+.6) + (.833)(.6) = .767 balls.

**Assertion: If scum started with more than 1 ball, they would immediately distribute their balls in order to avoid losing their cache to a lynch.
--In all scenarios under I], the probability that all balls end up with a townie is always 0, while the probabilities of scum gaining at least one additional ball after hammering and/or passing are decreasingly proportional with the probabilities calculated.
--In all scenarios under II], the probability that all balls end up with a townie is now always 0, while the probabilities of scum gaining at least one additional ball after hammering and/or passing are proportional with probabilities calculated under I]


Therefore,
optimal strategy
dictates that we should play
defense
, by only passing at Night if we have more than 1 ball, and not passing in all other circumstances.


This does not account for unknown mechanics, of course.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:09 am

Post by Alisae »

wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooah look at those cool numbers!
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:09 am

Post by Alisae »

I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING!
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:14 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

In post 112, ɀefiend wrote:Therefore, optimal strategy dictates that we should play defense, by only passing at Night if we have more than 1 ball, and not passing in all other circumstances.
Pretty much. Everything that needs to be said about the balls has been said. Let's scumhunt.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:30 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 111, Alisae wrote:
In post 110, Almost50 wrote:
In post 109, Alisae wrote:
In post 103, Almost50 wrote:3 Town leans
Who might these be?
Tywin, I,perium, and I forgot the third one, though I remember they had a cute avatar that they just changed into one that's not nearly as cute.
lmaaaaaaaaaaao
Why are you TRing them?
Because I'm actually reading the thread, and you may now add Zefiend to the Town leans.

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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:32 am

Post by Alisae »

That's not helpful.
Like what are the towny things they have done.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:38 am

Post by Alisae »

Oh yeah add to that why they couldn't have done those things as scum.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:47 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

Let's hurry up and bandwagon
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:49 am

Post by Almost50 »

@Alisae:

I appreciate your line of questioning, but you have to know that sometimes NOT telling all you know is a better strategy. I tell you why you're Town, and someone else (who are actually Scum) copy it (with the necessary alteration) to look Town too. Or maybe I picked something about someone being a PR and then I point it out and Scum know where to shoot. Or maybe I give a bad reason (that I personally thought was good) and then both me and my TR get lynched for whatever reasoning (if they're not scum buddies then one is buddying the other! OOPS! It was just a good read with bad reasoning from one Townie on another. Now they're both gone, so let's move on).

When I find it necessary or even convenient to say why I think X is Town I certainly will. For now, we're still at page 5, and while you do need a good reason to push someone as Scum you do NOT need to explain a TR on someone who has been actively posting (i.e. you don't need to point out what exactly in their posts made you think they're Town). In other words, don't give Scum free info/ideas.

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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:52 am

Post by Socrates »

In post 82, Almost50 wrote:
In post 80, Socrates wrote:Scum like to tell townies not to use unique game mechanics, thinking that they will look protown by advocating caution, but really all they do is betray their own greed.

You didn't actively call it scummy to collect dragon balls, so it's not the full tell, but this is a good starting place.

VOTE: not chara
I said it first, so why NC and not me?
Well no, nc said they were going to actively sabotage collecting dragons balls on the first page.

Two, your suggestion did earn a squint from me. Maybe you failed to notice. But my feelings on you re:Tywin mirror Nacho's, whereas NC only has this.

I find annoying that people think about the mechanics only in terms of how they can be used directly, not in terms of how they can be a vector for scumhunting. Scum can do a lot, but they can do very little without leaving a paper trail if we approach it correctly. I will have more to say on this day 2.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:58 am

Post by Alisae »

hmmmmmmm...
VOTE: Socrates

I would really like you to explain the scum motivation behind saying this on page 1:
In post 18, Not Chara wrote:oh and Kuroi: very interesting mechanic with the Dragonballs. i look forward to sabotaging all attempts to gather seven of them.
Because I'm not seeing it.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:01 am

Post by Socrates »

In post 122, Alisae wrote:hmmmmmmm...
VOTE: Socrates

I would really like you to explain the scum motivation behind saying this on page 1:
In post 18, Not Chara wrote:oh and Kuroi: very interesting mechanic with the Dragonballs. i look forward to sabotaging all attempts to gather seven of them.
Because I'm not seeing it.
I already did. Its quoted in the post directly above yours.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:06 am

Post by Alisae »

I need to learn how to read. Give me a second.
/me takes a second.
Kay heres the thing. I don't think scum!NC gets anything out of writing that post. Granted town!NC gets nothing out of it either. Like that post seems really NAI to me. Especially considering it's page 1, we're still in RVS, so I don't really see how they're trying to prevent scumhunting from happening on page 1?
I feel like if anything scum are most likely to jump on that post rather then town.
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:07 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

Any simplistic wand-waving ball policy proposal the kind of which Almost50 made is almost assuredly made by scum.
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