Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Imperium]

early assessment of Almost here suggests he's leaning town. i like Desperado's assessment of that one Almost post coming from town (meaning i like Desperado), but Almost is a self-aware scum and is perfectly capable of forming such a thought. he remembers things and uses them, his alignment has little to do with it. that would be why Almost is only lean town. i certainly don't want him lynched, however. i haven't seen anything from him i don't like yet.

Why do you like desperado for liking almost's post as coming from town and ignoring that we had already discussed liking almost's approach there?

I want this question answered as your going through things. This one matters more to me than the ball stuff, which this head cares little about.

i liked the way Desperado explained his thought process surrounding the read after being questioned, it looked very genuine to me. simply thinking Almost is town for that posting isn't really enough for me. unless i missed it somewhere, you didn't really go in depth about it. essentially, Desperado caught my attention there while i just forgot that you had that opinion. i happened to mention Desperado there because i was reminded of the townread while talking about Almost.

pedit: i don't see a point arguing about that further then, we're not going to agree and if you believe this then i don't have a problem with that stance.

So here's the thing and why I care about the desperado thing is because we did give a town read for his approach to typing. Typing misunderstood what we meant, and I explained that we townread the way almost scumhunted typing, but did not agree with the conclusion.

Now nacho had expressed early suspicion on desperado and when I think about how desperado!scum might navigate the game against nacho (my other head), I think he would try to make it look like they were on a similar wavelength early. I could see him pointing out a read we already gave, understanding what looked town about it, and sharing that. Now he could also just be town on the same wavelength, sure, but I found it interesting that you liked desperado's take while ignoring that the first person to even mention that list looking like town was us.

[Not Chara]

Also, I'll repeat: anyone with a reason not to vote clumsy, go ahead and tell me why. Otherwise, why aren't you also SRing the slot? If they flip scum, any fence sitter should be the subsequent lynches, and yes, I'm playing pre-flip associations. If you take a hard town stance on them, at least I know you weren't playing both sides in hopes of derailing the lynch but leaving open the bus possibility if necessary.

the games only just started. between you and ABR i'm getting those 'this wagon is the wagon town should be on and you're scum for trying to go against the decision!' vibes that i get from awful games where players aren't allowed to have opinions.
and yes, that was me being dramatic. but honestly, why do you expect players to have a hard-town stance or be scumreading Clumsy Phoenix? maybe i'm leaning town and have other players i'm more interested in lynching. i understand why your scumread is so strong, and honestly i got the same vibes at first, but really.

[Imperium]

and you aren't scumreading Clumsy.

When people make that statement it's because they are approaching the game with that viewpoint. If we're scum, clumsy is probably town.

We're not scum, so if you're basing your read of clumsy on us, that's wrong.

And no we're not scumreading clumsy, and yes even we flip that will be evident that we're town, but if you're viewing reads today with that premise in mind and how it affects the alignments of other players, you'll be wrong.

[Imperium]

Almost - does town not chara typically suspect people who suspect it?

Not necessarily. It depends on how the suspicion is expressed and what the reasoning behind it is. (i.e. NC doesn't automatically suspect everyone who suspects the like -say- Titus/-Grey-/RC do).

What do you think of the way he's doing it here?

[Imperium]

*tywin not typing on phone stupid autocorrect

[Not Chara]

So here's the thing and why I care about the desperado thing is because we did give a town read for his approach to typing. Typing misunderstood what we meant, and I explained that we townread the way almost scumhunted typing, but did not agree with the conclusion.

i know this means Tywin, not typing.

Now nacho had expressed early suspicion on desperado and when I think about how desperado!scum might navigate the game against nacho (my other head), I think he would try to make it look like they were on a similar wavelength early. I could see him pointing out a read we already gave, understanding what looked town about it, and sharing that. Now he could also just be town on the same wavelength, sure, but I found it interesting that you liked desperado's take while ignoring that the first person to even mention that list looking like town was us.

i've just explained it. the

conclusion

of liking Almost's handling of Tywin has nothing to do with it. i liked the way Desperado explained himself regarding it. it certainly doesn't look like scum jumping on a read to try and buddy you, if that's what you're implying.
i had to go ISO you and look for Almost to find the opinion you were talking about. you didn't elaborate, you just had an opinion. i'm supposed to remember that? Desperado made a show of it in his initial post on the matter and then had to defend the opinion when questioned. it's not really a mental leap to figure out why he left an impression and you did not.
seeing Desperado's thoughts outlined as they were = townread. thinking Almost is town for the Tywin thing =/= townread. is that better?

[Imperium]

Re: post in question: Not necessarily. It would be easy rhetorical food for him to force a scumread on Tywin, but he chose to back off and look elsewhere. That's what makes it seem genuine.

Incidentally,

vote count

?

I don't agree that it easy at all. there was a level of sophistication to the read that is difficult to fake for anyone and it's not like almost could have planned to scumread tywin for that exact thing pregame; if they had I would have expected something less fully formed.

Is this him outlining his thoughts in a way that you liked?

[Imperium]

I agree that your explanation makes sense, but I don't think Desperado as scum wouldn't be able to recognize why that post looked town and I don't think he has strong motivations not to explain it when asked as scum.

[Not Chara]

And no we're not scumreading clumsy, and yes even we flip that will be evident that we're town, but if you're viewing reads today with that premise in mind and how it affects the alignments of other players, you'll be wrong.

well, i wasn't. i don't exactly have a hydra PT to throw thoughts into. they go here so i can see them later. if you flip scum i'll refer back. if you don't then you really have nothing to worry about.
i guess your point here was to make a general statement about not forming reads through pre-flip associations. still, the point was predicated on you being scum. until i know if you are or not, it's meaningless.

pedit: yes, that's the post in particular. i think Desperado did say more on the subject, but it gets my point across.
and sure, maybe he could fake it. still, i'm not about to second-guess myself on everything because i think scum could fake things. i'm townreading Desp for other reasons but that Almost thing is certainly one of them. the way it was expressed just looks town. i'm of the opinion that scum and town look at 'towny' posts differently, but i really don't feel like launching into a meta discussion right now to no useful end.

[Imperium]

So here's the thing and why I care about the desperado thing is because we did give a town read for his approach to typing. Typing misunderstood what we meant, and I explained that we townread the way almost scumhunted typing, but did not agree with the conclusion.

i know this means Tywin, not typing.

Now nacho had expressed early suspicion on desperado and when I think about how desperado!scum might navigate the game against nacho (my other head), I think he would try to make it look like they were on a similar wavelength early. I could see him pointing out a read we already gave, understanding what looked town about it, and sharing that. Now he could also just be town on the same wavelength, sure, but I found it interesting that you liked desperado's take while ignoring that the first person to even mention that list looking like town was us.

i've just explained it. the

conclusion

of liking Almost's handling of Tywin has nothing to do with it. i liked the way Desperado explained himself regarding it. it certainly doesn't look like scum jumping on a read to try and buddy you, if that's what you're implying.
i had to go ISO you and look for Almost to find the opinion you were talking about. you didn't elaborate, you just had an opinion. i'm supposed to remember that? Desperado made a show of it in his initial post on the matter and then had to defend the opinion when questioned. it's not really a mental leap to figure out why he left an impression and you did not.
seeing Desperado's thoughts outlined as they were = townread. thinking Almost is town for the Tywin thing =/= townread. is that better?

I do not disagree that he went into more depth about the read. He was around when people got their panties in a jimmy about almost50 and we were not.

I do believe that if desperado is scum here, he'd approach that somewhat similarly as in being on a wavelength which nacho. I think he'd probably approach that situation carefully. This is because the person I think scum desperado would be most concerned about here is nacho. They have played together quite a lot and hydrad, so there's gonna be some expectations there.

It's something that pinged me when I read it, and if we did keep thinking you were scum and you were scum, this could be interesting.

[Imperium]

Oh no people make thinking out loud pre-flip associations all the time, myself included. I thought you were making a read based post today because I thought that's where you were going with your read on us.

It was more a read clumsy based on clumsy not what you think of us unless you're interested in why we're town leaning the slot.

[Imperium]

Vote: Vifam

Liking Not Chara's responses.
Not Chara, what do you think of Vifam this game?

[Not Chara]

i know nothing about this Desperado/nacho connection. but, before i waste my time because i misunderstood: did Desperado ping you, or did i? i can't tell what your Desperado read is right now.

i dislike that you keep going back to how i didn't townread you for the same thing. so what? if you understand where i'm coming from, why are we still talking about this? do you want me to stop townreading Desperado, or do you want me to townread you for the same reason as him, even though i've explained why you're different?

if you're discussing this with me idly simply because you believe it's fruitful, i have to tell you that there's only so many times we can beat this dead horse. there's a whole game to discuss, i'd be happy to do so.

pedit: well, that really took the wind out of my sails considering what i just finished typing. i have entirely too much to say about Imperium right now. i like their approach to this game and i'm seeing a lot of sophisticated thought processes, and someone who isn't likely to get caught in a tunnel. at the same time, a lot of the things they do or say ping me. i don't like to listen to that voice when it's conflicted like it is now, so i'll just see where things go from here.

i don't have much of an opinion on Vifam right now. let me look at him.

[Not Chara]

to add to the above because i forgot to say what i wanted: what bothered me about Imperium has been resolved enough when i take their thought process and their goal being reading me into account. that should be the takeaway.

[Not Chara]

on Vifam: so far, i wouldn't vote there. what bothers you about him? i've played with Vifam a few times and this lack of drive is what i've come to associate with town Vifam.

[Not Chara]

i don't want Almost lynched and i don't see a reason to vote ABR. i'd much prefer more players on Majiffy. i want to see Tywin respond to Desperado's 483 before i do anything else on that front.
Phoenix's 448 is what's hurt my townread on the slot the most. not one, but both heads agree with this tell? it's nowhere near a universal tell, and coming from anyone from Socrates is cause enough for me to be suspicious. i'd actually thought there were more players agreeing with this case, but now that i'm looking i think i was wrong.
the only one left is Alisae, who manages to be a frustrating player for me to read whenever i've tried to.

[Clumsy Phoenix]

As I'm catching up: Hi Imperium, which person were you in that offsite game and was that Tammy or Nacho? I did really bad there, I think largely because people got very into the nitty gritty mechanic-based gamesolving and I fall pretty flat on my face there. I tried!

-Shaziro

[Desperado]

hey shaz

still waiting for your slot's opinions on me

or for you to follow up on the people you asked

[Almost50]

Almost - does town not chara typically suspect people who suspect it?

Not necessarily. It depends on how the suspicion is expressed and what the reasoning behind it is. (i.e. NC doesn't automatically suspect everyone who suspects the like -say- Titus/-Grey-/RC do).

What do you think of the way he's doing it here?

Frankly this is very much the Town!NC I know. I may have another look in D2/D3 to be treble-extra-sure, but the way it looks right now is this is definitely Town!Chara.

[Tywin Lannister]

The last few pages suck. Let me get that out of the way. Nothing worthwhile has been said. It's all talk about motivations for TRs rather than finding scum. Imperium seems to be sorting players somewhat, but going in the wrong direction for it. Enough of why you TR someone. It's worthless. I personally don't care who TRs who. It just means they aren't in your lynch pool for whatever arbitrary reason. I also dislike motives and things being discussed, because all motives boil down to two things: town lynching scum and scum not getting lynched/mislynching town. It's pretty damn simple.

So since you're all here and ready to talk, let's talk. I'm about to go to bed, but when you all wake up, drink your morning coffee, and check the thread, here's what I personally wanna see: Scum reads/lynch pool and specific reasons as to why.

The rest boils down to fluff and makes people look like they're contributing/active while they say nothing. Imperium has done that to a T with their posts. It's all questioning TRs and learning motivation for them rather than saying 'I SR the following player(s) and here's why.'

So give that info and take a stance. Stop walking the fence and discussing everything except who to lynch. It's pinging me due to the constant fluff, and the only reason I'm saying it is A) because it may be your specific way to sort (although I find that it sidesteps the entire point to discuss TRs over SRs) and B) I want to get some meat and potatoes in this game. Currently, its some nouveau artisan food that's arranged all pretty, but it consists of a carrot, two peas, an eggsprout, and some chicken shavings. The game is starving for actual content.

Tl;dr: get to the point and give your SRs. Take a stance and say why. Not doing so is becoming scummy.

If this is to us you can take your condescending newb ass and shove it. We don't need advice on how to play this game from anyone, least of all you. We have a pretty damn strong town game and will solve the game our own way.

You should learn to understand different styles of play and recognize when town are trying to sort. You might learn something.

(Although the sheeer condescension you just displayed is more tywin-esque so good on you for that, but you don't see me criticizing your methods do you? No, good stand aside and watch how it's actually done.)

Me being condescending would be saying 'take your newb as and shove it.' Since I have much thicker skin than whichever head got all offended, I got a laugh out of it. That being said, I'm fairly confident I have more total time not only on this site, but also playing Mafia in general than what you apparently think. Nothing I said was 'newb' or even relates to what a newb would say. Even if it was, my point remains valid.

What it did say was all your posts were full of fluff bullshit that says nothing, goes nowhere, and doesn't give anyone your Scum reads. Instead of looking for scum, you've been looking for who TRs who. It's all bs. It's a way for scum to feel out town and see who is can be easily mislynched and who shouldn't be clashed with. It's also a way to butter up specific players you may find dangerous. Engagement is fine, but not looking for scum while doing so is not. I tend to cut through the BS as town, because it's not helpful to the rest of us. I love it as scum though, so if you aren't scum, you've spent your time helping them hide. You've spent all your time saying 'this looks town!' and/or asking others about their TRs rather than spending it trying to engage the null players or make scum give their reads. Again, this shows that you're more interested in finding who you should TR than who you should lynch, and that is consistent with a scum wincon.

There's nothing wrong with different styles of play, but yours is full of fluff and I'm calling you out on it. Since I don't know either of your heads' meta though, I've not made you into a SR based off of it. If it continues though, I probably will. Typing a lot while getting nowhere is pretty consistent with that. Go ahead and ask everyone why they TR everyone else all you want, but if I don't see any interest in finding scum, I naturally have to assume you aren't looking for them for obvious reasons.

Capiche? I'm still catching up though, so maybe you've given a read list/lynch pool in the next few pages. If not, then I'll have to ask again, and I'll keep asking until you either do it or get lynched. It's only difficult to do as scum, since only scum need to be so careful about what the say and who they clash with.

[Alisae]

I really would like to see more tbh.
We have the Shaz head saying Zef is scum for hypocrisy but doesn't vote them (Meh scumtell at best).
Saying they get SR'd real hard looks LAMIST.
Shaz doesn't really comment on anything else that's going on in the gamestate.
Don't really get how they said Zef dropped a scumtell to Zef being town but ok.

I would really like Shaz to talk more about Maria.
Shaz can you talk more about Maria?

So I really don't have a good grasp on it? Like, I would sorta like to see them post more if anything. Does that make sense?

I think Shapiro was just answering the question z asked, not accusing them of hypocrisy?

Makes sense I guess.

Yeaaaaaaaaah...
She's gonna post that way as either alignment.
VOTE: Clums

I don't get this vote. Do you expect clumsy to have meta knowledge of Maria? Why the vote there and why for that reason?

I don't think Maria posted anything that seems AI, and claiming that they were defensive seems ehhhhhhh I didn't really like the arguement and thought it was bad.
Also I hate the first part of the question, it seems really manipulative to me.

Liked the rest of the post, don't understand what you're saying with this point.
Saying that get scumread frequently is them trying too hard to pretend to be town...?

tbh, looking back at it, I really do not know what I was trying to accomplish with that.

Are you still happy with your vote on them?

There was other stuff I pointed out in that post plus my interactions with them so I'm happy with it, but I could always join you back on NC.

Can you talk about you nc read?

I'm sheeping Socrates' case on them.

[Tywin Lannister]

Enough of why you TR someone. It's worthless. I personally don't care who TRs who. It just means they aren't in your lynch pool for whatever arbitrary reason. I also dislike motives and things being discussed, because all motives boil down to two things: town lynching scum and scum not getting lynched/mislynching town. It's pretty damn simple.

Town play, in a tired, half-assed nutshell, is being transparent and determining motivation. I've never understood why some people insist on only scumhunting or only townhunting because you're only playing half of the game when you do so; finding town means narrowing down your scum pool, reducing scum mislynches, finding people to scumhunt with.

Motive is also remarkably more complicated than that; you've correctly noted our win conditions but the path to get there is different for ever player, hence different styles. In addition, not everything a player posts feeds into their wincondition; there are emotional responses and there are things people say regardless of alignment, etc. If you don't take what people are trying to do into account, how can you make the claim you understand them?

useless/naked/sheep votes on the slot.

Could you call out these votes specifically?
I'd also like to hear you rephrase our suspicions on Not Chara, as well as Socrates; you note that our cases aren't legitimate, but there's no impetus for me to refine an approach until you show me it's broken.

So do the work for you? That's not how this works. I can and probably will, but it's not my job to scum hunt for you, especially when you're so averse to it. It's my job to point out your inconsistencies and push you to either be better if town or lynch you if scum. That's it. You've not shown me that you're town based on your posts, but it's also not enough to SR you either. Your suspicion is fine and I have no problems with it, but if you can't push a SR at all, it's certainly not my job to do it for you. That's on you, and since you have two heads, I'm sure one of you can come up with a way to convince others if you legitimately SR someone. If you are scum, it only helps you to have town push your wagons for you.

Convince me that NC is scum or don't, but to ask me to do it for you when I have the opposite read is ridiculous. If you have a legitimate case, rephrase it yourself.

[Tywin Lannister]

when you all wake up, drink your morning coffee, and check the thread,

*Pout* I don't drink coffee. Does that mean you don't want to talk to me?

B) I want to get some meat and potatoes in this game. Currently, its some nouveau artisan food that's arranged all pretty, but it consists of a carrot, two peas, an eggsprout, and some chicken shavings. The game is starving for actual content.

O'right Chef .. err.. Chief.

Seriously though, my stances are clear. My lynch pool is currently in Maria/Clumsy/Socrates/Majiffy/ABR. I don't SR read any of them in particular though. It's mainly PoE. You'd notice I haven't been voting anyone for a long time now.. just waiting for someone to do something that would ping me hard enough to merit a vote.

If it helps, I'm starting to think the Clumsy slot is a low hanging fruit, and even if Scum they're not going to last long and will definitely be found out soon enough. I'm not liking their hopping between wagons, but it certainly isn't reason enough for me to want them lynched.

I don't like ABR's over aggressiveness, but that's ABR as either alignment. If he starts lurking though I'd be willing to vote there, because it seems that -as Scum- he cannot keep up with the act for too long.

Socrates is meh. Majiffy is a total null and Maria I fear I'm a bit too paranoid about her since I've seen both her Scum and Town games and cannot tell the difference. In a game that has just ended a few hours ago I was SPOILED in the dead thread and still had doubts about her alignment. God! She could have hammered Town for the win and didn't, thus earning her a semi-confirmed status at MyLo.

So, while I don't have any actual case on any of them myself I'd be willing to sheep a GOOD case on either (keyword here being GOOD). Everyone else I TR to varying degrees.

My posts weren't really directed toward you, or anyone in particular actually. Imperium took offense, but my point is that it's been a lot of talking in circles and not going anywhere. D1 lynches are almost always mislynches of town, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to converge as a whole and see what the majority agree on. Simple wagons/votes don't do it, because most town think 'fuck it, they're not me so I'll lynch them' and are done with it. A better approach, in my 'newb ass that can shove it' opinion is to get definitive lynch pools from everyone and see where they stand. It helps get reads from everyone, makes scum actually work for it, shows far more motivation (which imperium likes so much) than just asking why they TR someone (it's fucking easy to TR anyone as scum, much harder to make legit cases on their fake SRs), and it makes everyone at least put minimal effort into the game.

So again, my posts weren't specific toward anyone. I just want to see a lynch pool and reasons why, regardless of how strong or weak they are, and if someone has a strong SR, I want to see the case. If they have a strong TR on my personal SRs, I want to know why so that I can rethink my position. I don't see a reason not to do this.

As for the rest, I appreciate your list here. If anything, it gives me a stronger TR on you and tells me more about your thoughts than remembering everything said 10+ pages ago and/or having to ISO you to know exactly what your reads currently are. So thank you.

[Imperium]

I asked you to rephrase my case because I had a feeling you weren't reading my posts. The fact that you didn't even know that I was pushing a case at all demonstrates that you probably weren't reading my posts, which I think is where my partner's frustration came from. I think this is a non-issue between us; I push scumreads plenty.

[Alisae]

Socrates what do you make of NC's latests posts?