Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: Tywin

We played 2 games before but we have yet to draw the same alignment.

P-edit: Shoot! Alisae beat me to it. Great minds think alike though, so I'll keep the vote.

Almost/Alisae scum team confirmed!

VOTE: Almost

No wait..

VOTE: Alisae

Damn, can't lynch you both today. I will get it done eventually though!

[Tywin Lannister]

It's a race to the bottom between me and Almost. I say we quicklynch him first. If he doesn't flip scum, the mod sent the wrong PM. Then we quicklynch Alisae just because. If he's not scum, who cares. PL ftw. Then we quicklynch the other scums and win. I have laid out the entire plan for town, so this is an easy win. If we lose, I blame someone not named Tywin.

[Tywin Lannister]

Btw: I have never watched DBZ beyond like one episode as a kid, and none of it made sense. DBalls are like rings of power and we want to rule them all, right? So like the one ring? Or like infinity stones and the person with the gauntlet kicks the Avengers' asses? I will collect them all like Pokemon. Then I will wish for Almost's death. If he's already dead, I will wish for him to come back alive so I can lynch him again. I got these game mechanics on lockdown.

[Tywin Lannister]

Btw tywin I won Hogwartz

Nice! Sorry I was a no show the entire game. I barely had time for one game, and since I was scum and wasn't a hydra, I had to put my time in that game. Glad you won!

[Tywin Lannister]

@Tywin: I'm trying to give you all the slack you need to rectify your play in hopes you're not yet tuned in, but then I'll have to come down on you real hard if that doesn't change soon.

Hint: reread the thread. Now tell me what you missed.

Why are you making me read RVS? I usually don't start paying attention until after.

[Tywin Lannister]

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Almost: i don't know! and after i joined to play with you... it brings a tear to my eye.

Oh, I'm sorry

But it's probably bc the last 2 Kuroi games we were in as a hydra, so I subconsciously thought we were playing with the hydra account.

But now I do have a thought: This dragonballs thing makes the game potentially very swingy. I think we all should keep passing them around if we get more than one just to prevent their potential accumulation with scum. Like, it should be ok for any one player to keep only ONE dragon ball at a time. Thoughts?

That's no fun. I want to collect them all and then wish for either your death or your resurrection and then subsequent second death. Although if I don't collect them all, then yes, nobody should have them.

Also, I'm a bulletproof, lynchproof bomb so nobody will steal them from me. I say you all just hand them to me ftw. I promise to use them responsibly.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Tywin: I'm trying to give you all the slack you need to rectify your play in hopes you're not yet tuned in, but then I'll have to come down on you real hard if that doesn't change soon.

Hint: reread the thread. Now tell me what you missed.

Why are you making me read RVS? I usually don't start paying attention until after.

The thing is you addressed both mine and Alisae's vote on you. but totally ignored Vifam's. Since we just finished a game where you were scum, and I partially caught you by noticing you neither voted nor got voted by your scum partners, I was wondering if Vifam (who was also in that game) tried to change that and you missed his gesture. It's a 50-50, but you'd have to admit it's strange you didn't even say hello to the guy who put the 3rd vote on you.

Vifam's voting me too? Haha, I honestly didn't know. Should've been voting you to even it up then. I skimmed page 1 and didn't really read until pg2, since that's where my OP landed. Regardless, you're looking into things a little too hard for being so early, so I question whethe you're town this game. You're already attempting to shade me using a very bad reason (not noticing vifam's vote), which you'd do as scum to set up a possible mislynch of town me. If I was scum, I doubt they'd vote for their buddy this early to make it an actual wagon.

What you should be looking at, if you are town, is why all these people are voting for either me or you in RVS over idk, anyone else. RVS should be random or at least a joke or OMGUS, not 'hey, this townie has 3 votes, I'll add mine too.' It means they're ignoring their scum buddies.

[Tywin Lannister]

I feel good about Almost's approach to Tywin, although I can't say I agree with it. Will make a full response to it after Tywin responds.

You agree with it, but don't agree with it? What does that even mean, and why do you need my response to respond to it at all? Are you hoping for a quick wagon on me, and you want to help him shade me with some very bad reasoning? Or what's the deal? Either you agree with him or not, and if not, why would you need my response to address him? Are you hoping to sheep him for a quicklynch in RVS?

[Tywin Lannister]

Oh yeah Tywin what's your flavor?

My flavor? I can't tell you what my PM says. I'm Earthling/Earth-aligned thoufh if that's what you're asking. What's yours?

[Tywin Lannister]

Oh yeah Tywin what's your flavor?

My flavor? I can't tell you what my PM says. I'm Earthling/Earth-aligned thoufh if that's what you're asking. What's yours?

lmaaaaaao
It says that too but I was moreso referring to the "Who are you" part.

Oh my flavor name? I don't want to say, because it only helps scum in this instance. If I get to L1 or something, I'll say. I think it's pretty obvious what my role is if I say my flavor name, so I don't see any reason to give it out.
Claiming on D1 is just bad play lol. It got you and grey killed last game almost immediately.

Side note: I don't know any of the characters in DBZ, whose good/bad, and things like that (I know Goku is good, right?), so it's good I'm not scum this game. I'd have no idea who to fake claim, but I'm guessing this won't be like Hogwarts Mafia where the good guys are scum, at least from what I can tell by my PM.

Since I can't say the actual name, I can say that I'm 'against' freeza and his generals, whoever the fuck that is.

[Tywin Lannister]

I feel good about Almost's approach to Tywin, although I can't say I agree with it. Will make a full response to it after Tywin responds.

You agree with it, but don't agree with it? What does that even mean, and why do you need my response to respond to it at all? Are you hoping for a quick wagon on me, and you want to help him shade me with some very bad reasoning? Or what's the deal? Either you agree with him or not, and if not, why would you need my response to address him? Are you hoping to sheep him for a quicklynch in RVS?

Your jumpiness does not do your namesake justice. I expected a calmer, cooler approach than the jumpy. (This is not an insult by the way this head is a little jumpy too.)

You are misreading my other head's point. Nacho likes Almost's approach as in thinks she's probably town from it, but does not agree with her conclusion. It's entirely possible to like what someone's approach says about them but not like their conclusion or argument. That's the case here as far as I know Nacho also has a leaning town read on you.

Neither of us is in the habit of defending people before they have the chance to defend or explain themselves. Why do you think we should have?

I'm not jumpy. Jumpy would be me actually worried about a wagon right now. I'm just questioning what you said, because it looks contradictory as well as opportunistic, seeing as I lead the vote count currently. Why are you calling me jumpy for questioning you? That's not how this works. You'd not know if I was jumpy or not based on the post, but it should show me trying to early sort you, since you've made a stance, although it's very 'on the fence' in regards to what you said. From my perspective, 'if' you are scum, you're putting feelers out to see if you can get away with voting me, but it's too early for you to fully commit, so you gave a contradictory statement to possibly lean either way depending on future events. It's not out of the question to think scum would say what you did in hopes others sheep the wagon and you help finish off the lynch. Then again, it could mean absolutely nothing too, but j don't know without asking.

I do agree with your sentiments on defending others this early though. So touché

[Tywin Lannister]

Personally, I will be passing the balls randomly but never twice to the same player, and that's if I lay my hands on any at all.

This stuff if fine and sounds good, but here's the issue: whoever hammered a lynch, scum would probably know that person now has a dragon ball. If they hammered scum who have them, then scum would know for sure. So the person to hammer probably will become a target. Can dragon balls be passed around at any time? If it's only at night, then which resolves first, the NK or dragon ball passing? This may be in the rules that I barely skimmed, but if not, it's a question worth asking. Say I hammered scum who had multiple dragon balls. Scum would know immediately that I got them all, right? So then my best play is to pass them to a conf town or someone I hard TR to avoid scum getting them in case I then become the NK target. Right?

[Tywin Lannister]

g. Say I hammered scum who had multiple dragon balls. Scum would know immediately that I got them all, right? So then my best play is to pass them to a conf town or someone I hard TR to avoid scum getting them in case I then become the NK target. Right?

It IS in the Mechanics post. Passing balls resolves before NKs, and TOWN can only pass balls at night, while Scum can do it anytime except when they're the leading wagon.

Like i said, I barely skimmed them, but my point about passing the balls if you hammer someone with them, especially if they're scum, is probably the best play. I'll reread the mechanics after work, but I still think my view on it is right, or at least it's good to bluff and pretend you'll pass them. Idk.

[Tywin Lannister]

3 Town leans

Who might these be?

Tywin, I,perium, and I forgot the third one, though I remember they had a cute avatar that they just changed into one that's not nearly as cute.

lmaaaaaaaaaaao
Why are you TRing them?

Lmaooooo (not really) why are you not?

[Tywin Lannister]

That's not helpful.
Like what are the towny things they have done.

Why is it supposed to be helpful to you? Also, I now SR you based on your responses in the thread so far, such as constant bad questions, but not contributing or adding your own thoughts at any point. You also ask extremely superficial questions that don't actually do or say anything, but it makes you 'look' like you're contributing.

Basically, you're doing exactly what you did in Hogwarts Mafia as scum. You're not acting like townie you would. Funny, my vote was originally just RVS and OMGUS to your/Almost's vote, but now it actually has a reason to be there.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin I'm concerned because you know I ask questions like that all the time because I try to understand what people are thinking so I can work with them.
I have no idea how you got that I'm not TRing them based off of that.

You have very subtle differences in what you ask and how you ask it when town/scum. I could be wrong here, but you're the best I've got so far early on D1.

[Tywin Lannister]

That's not helpful.
Like what are the towny things they have done.

Why is it supposed to be helpful to you? Also, I now SR you based on your responses in the thread so far, such as constant bad questions, but not contributing or adding your own thoughts at any point. You also ask extremely superficial questions that don't actually do or say anything, but it makes you 'look' like you're contributing.

Basically, you're doing exactly what you did in Hogwarts Mafia as scum. You're not acting like townie you would. Funny, my vote was originally just RVS and OMGUS to your/Almost's vote, but now it actually has a reason to be there.

ooooooooooh you're scum. Everything makes sense now considering town!Tywin doesn't SR me for that.

Will respond when not on my phone walking out the door, but Tywin are you an alt or are you as new as your start date says?

I will still respond when I'm not out on phone, but I no longer care about this question as I have a decent enough meaning town read that it doesn't matter.

I must have missed the question anyways. But for clarity sake: I'm 'technically' an alt only in that I used to play on mafiascum a long time ago (maybe 10 years ago? I don't remember) and I have no idea what my name or password used to be. So my start date/name is new in the sense that I haven't played on this site for a long time, but I'm not new to the site or Mafia in general.

[Tywin Lannister]

Didn't mean to quote both of those. As for Alisae: sorry, but I'm not. If I was, you think I'd go after you over this? I'd just paint you in a corner and try to either get you to claim and/or lynch you in the future like last game. I'm also not trying to start a wagon on you or I'd be pushing for it. I'm just happy where my vote is at the moment.

[Tywin Lannister]

Alisae's relatively quick new decisions based on the posting from other players is something i've seen from town Alisae.
Tywin: have you seen town Alisae? what you described as scum just looks like the question-heavy town Alisae i've seen before. what's the difference?

135: acknowledges bias but doesn't make an effort to work around it, and wants to policy on page 6? i don't see an actual scumread here.

I'm still catching up, but since I was addressed here:

Yes, multiple games with Town Alisae and one hydra game where we were scum together. I had to flake out of that specific game, but she won as scum (did get lynched however).

IMO, she is acting different, ever so slightly, than her usual town self, and based on the discussions we've had as scum together in both scum chat/hydra PT, I have a sneaking suspicion that he's scum here. I don't have good evidence of it, and it's just a read based on past play, but it seems different than usual Town Alisae and more aligned with Scum Alisae. I can't explain it well at the moment though.

[Tywin Lannister]

EBWOP: it's also not good enough to lynch them over it. I'm just happy where my vote is right now (or at least keeping it there after RVS). I'm not pushing a wagon based on personal meta reads though, because i could be wrong.

[Tywin Lannister]

ive played with town alisae before and so far he feels the same

Have you played with scum Alisae as a hydra partner?

This is even more interesting when multiple people come to the defense of Alisae over one vote which I'm not even pushing. Very interesting.

[Tywin Lannister]

That being said, I don't SR anyone defending him, so I'll just take note of it down the road. I need to reread though, because since I'm not gonna push for an Ali lynch, I'll have to go elsewhere.

Why is there an Almost wagon though? What's the case on him?

[Tywin Lannister]

He's also giving off the same vibe I was kind of getting from RAW when I first drafted there and he was scum in that game so

What vibe? I was in Smackdown and got Nk'ed the night I was drafted, so I didn't pay attention to him much. Can you elaborate?

[Tywin Lannister]

are you suggesting that any discussion of the dragonballs is strictly nai maria?

cuz I dont agree

Why are you saying it is AI? I talked about it and I know I'm not scum. So do you have a reason for this view or just hoping to shade anyone that dares mention game mechanics?

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin what's your opinion on NC?

Town lean so far, but it's mainly due to recent posts. I really need to reread to get a grasp of what's been said, since I've mostly only been reading while at work and half distracted.

[Tywin Lannister]

alignment indicative works in both directions bud

That didn't answer my question. Why do you think it's AI? If it's for both directions, then it's inherently NAI due to being something absolutely any alignment would talk about.

So again, same question chief.

[Tywin Lannister]

you aren't getting me bro

discussing the mechanic may or may not provide alignment tells

maria suggested that all mech talk is NAI and i do not agree

You're not getting it tiger

NAI means it can go either way. Mechanic talk, due to being able to go either way, is essentially NAI. I understand what you're trying to get at (case by case basis kinda deal), but based on how the swings really don't lean one way or the other, it's basically useless to analyze (at least by itself) and NAI. If there's an actual case on someone where going back to their mechanic talk makes sense, then it's not a problem, but saying it could mean literally either alignment (or even third party for that matter) means it's not alignment indicative. Maybe we are arguing semantics here, but when you stated you believe it IS AI, I expected an actual answer as to why. You've just said it could mean something, but you haven't said how, why, what it could mean, or any other detail that would mean you truly believe what you're saying. Something said had to have set you off, or you wouldn't have said anything about it, so what was it and who said it?

[Tywin Lannister]

Attempting to keep them safe/pass them around frequently also means they're more likely to end up in scum hands, and once scum touches them, they keep them.

We will also constantly worry about whether scum is close to having all the dragon balls and are close to resurrecting a dead brother or sister; activating them is the only way to kill the threat completely.

Here's something that doesn't add up: if scum have the same wish as town (resurrecting a dead player), then it's useless to them. We know whose scum after a flip, so bringing that player back just gets them lynched again immediately. All it does is give scum essentially one more wasted day/NK. This can't be what they have them for, because it just doesn't make sense. Mine as well just give scum a free kill or something.

So maybe town can only use it to resurrect a dead townie, but scum probably have other uses.

[Tywin Lannister]

3 townies alive, 2 scum alive. Scum resurrect a member, scum win the game.

All that means is its Lylo earlier than normal IF we don't manage to lynch any scum by then. If there are 5 players left and only one scum dead, then I'd already call it a loss. That would be terrible town play IMO. So again, I don't see any legitimate reason for scum to have the exact same wish as town. It helps only in that one specific scenerio, and if that scenerio happened, town were already losing. There's gotta be something else they have. Why are you assuming otherwise? You really think it's not possible that scum don't have seperate wishes than town that we don't know about?

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: Clumsy

This guy is scum, that was a horrendous entrance.

I agree with this. This guy pinged me f'ing HARD with that entrance. Red flags and sirens went off immediately.

VOTE: Clumsy

[Tywin Lannister]

In all seriousness I like the fact you're being way more concise now.

Haha I'm just lazier now, because nobody reads my wall posts anyway. I also don't have a case on someone I need to push (besides clumsy, whose posts and extremely late entrance is the case in itself). Totally think the hydra is scum for real though. It's my first hard SR that isn't based on me nitpicking meta.

Already lynching scum on D1... Good start! Seriously though, vote clumsy. Their entrance alone was the scummiest thing in the game by far. I'm sure others will see it too once they catch up. As a side note to that, late entrances aren't AI exactly, but in many cases, it means they're scum, and with a hydra, it's almost certain. Prod dodge after 12 pages, picked the most useless posts to comment on, added absolutely nothing to the discussion, huge red flags/scum vibes, and naked voted Maria as if it's still RVS.

Lynch this scum, and let's see if scum have the balls to bus on D1. This will be good.

[Tywin Lannister]

Alisae, CP said multiple times in his opening that he knew he was going to be scumread, and here we are.

You implied you don't think he's that hard to read. How do you feel about This?

Found the buddy.

[Tywin Lannister]

They can post as much as they want. You don't have to vote them, and others can pretend it's not scummy all they want, but if Clumsy flips scum, this game will be quick. I will be lynching them today for sure if any future posts read like their entrance. Haven't been pinged that hard in a while. This hydra is another Narna/Xnad in the making. Watch and see. I wonder if scum have daychat now, because if so, they'll be scrambling right now. I should get some popcorn.

[Tywin Lannister]

Notes: - Who here wants to collect all seven dragonballs!?

I would, but only if I could wish for a plasma TV or iPhone 7 plus.

I was originally going to follow up on my joke about wishing for your death/resurrection/death again, but realized it's pretty stale after the first post. That being said, I'd have to hammer everyone to get them since I doubt I'll ever be passed to, so I'm pretty much going to ignore the whole ball thing entirely unless scum seem to have them and the early Lylo situation potentially pops up.

Side note: I like the Ali/Clumsy exchange. It changed my mind on Ali. He's not a solid TR. Scum Ali wouldn't have wasted the chance to shade me there. I'm pretty confident in that, far more than I was with the original SR. Ali wasting chances to shade anyone wouldn't happen unless town.

Still have Clumsy as strongest SR. Socrates comes in a slightly more distant second, but only due to gut rather than having something legitimate. If clumsy flips scum though, I'll be going hard after Socrates.

ABRampage is town IMO. If scum, he'd not push so hard on any wagon so early, and the 'threatening' anyone that leaves the wagon without good cause doesn't look like it comes from scum. Unless someone knows his meta enough to say he'd do that as scum, I put him firmly in a town slot. NC/Almost are far harder for me to read based on how they play, because they know how to look town as scum, and they're both good at making townies TR them by not shading the wrong people and/or switching stances of SRs into TRs fairly smoothly, something that scum don't usually do well. Due to that, they're more null than anything, but I have both as slight TRs for now, because I'm not lynching either this early, and I also dislike the wagons that formed on them without actual cases. There's been a lot of naked votes that don't sit well with me, but I'll know more on it after some flips.

So yeah, I'm sticking to Clumsy hydra. I don't buy the 'I'm always SR immediately' thing from the other head. If that's the case as town, then don't be scummy? You both could've posted earlier too, and if the other head is the one that knew they'd get SR, why didn't the Clumsy head post first? Using an excuse for possibly being SR in your very first post doesn't work for me. I also dislike Clumsy trying to shade me using flimsy reasoning, because it's basically OMGUS and I'm just one person in a 15 page game. It's fine to SR me, but use something better than 'he claims to not know flavor twice! He even said some of his flavor to fool everyone!' kinda thing. I'm sure I've said something else that can be twisted into being scummy somehow, so maybe put some more effort into it. You've basically tried recruiting Ali on me in hopes it would stick, they rebuffed the offer, so you became dead in the water. If you legit SR me, you'd probably not need to recruit a townie to help you vote or push me. You'd just make a case and stick with it.

Tl;dr: Clumsy needs a rope IMO.

P-edit: Socrates: if I was scum, that would be a good thing, but since I'm not, it's bad. I can try to keep posts short, but at least pretend to read the non-wall posts.

[Tywin Lannister]

This is a good reason why wall posts are bad. I have typos and can't fix them easily. Anyway, Ali is now** a strong TR, not Ali is not a strong TR. etc etc

[Tywin Lannister]

Wall posts aren't bad you just need to learn to be a bit more concise with them.

Haha the sad thing is that college taught me to write the way I do. It's a byproduct of needing a way to easily write essays that fit the arbitrary page/word count requirements. I also have a bachelors in English, so as you can imagine, my skill in writing convoluted BS skyrocketed.

I'll try to be more concise in the future.

[Tywin Lannister]

I believe I explained in my first post that I hadn't gotten a hold of Clumsy in a bit and didn't want to lurk this game, we've had a problem with that in past when hydraing because we like to wait to speak with one another before posting. I can link our past games if anyone cares to see them and confirm that I am telling the truth wrt my posting and us lurking due to wanting to converse before posting.

Personally I think ABR hardpushing what he thinks is just kinda an ABR thing, fits him as a person from what I've seen. That said, anyone who has played with him has better meta knowledge than I do, so I figure I'll defer there first. Not sure if Clumsy has or hasn't.

Tywin, Alisae, and Socrates, have any of you given your thoughts on Desperado yet?

Here's my hangup with your reasoning: you're knowingly using your own meta as a way to excuse scummy behavior. This is classic scum stuff. It's probably more in a NAI realm since lots of people do it, but scum can and do manipulate their past meta to excuse their behavior in other games. Granted, this can mean Ali is doing the same to make me TR him, and Almost/NC surely do it too, but it never sits well with me when it's used an excuse for why someone acts scummy. Ali isn't bringing up the past as a way to say 'I'm not scum even though I act scummy' here, but you are. That's the main difference.

Ali/NC/Almost were in my last game (I was scum), and a scum buddy did the exact same thing. He claimed his meta is why he was so scummy/making terrible plays if town/etc to explain things away. It actually probably helped throw the game with how clumsy (no pun intended) it was, but we didn't have a choice since he wouldn't listen when we said to not do it.

My point is that anytime someone uses 'I always act scummy, look at my past games, I'll give you links!' as an excuse for why they're currently scummy in another game, it always pings me. Always.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin, while you're here: i'm curious, where have you seen my scum meta to know to make that judgement? my memory is bad, so i might simply be forgetting. was it Kuroi's WWE game?

Yes, the WWE game. I had you firmly as town, not only because of balance reasons (I couldn't see any way that both managers would be scum without the game being extremely unbalanced), but because you were logical in a townie way, weren't pushing the wrong players, buddied the right ones when necessary, and a few other things that avoided any red flags. It was a pretty good showing as scum tbh. I was impressed.

So after that, I stopped using my normal methods of reading town/scum on you, because you know how to avoid pinging me in those ways. Almost is pretty much the same in that regard, although he also has a tendency to look scummy as town too. Due to that, I can't trust gut reads on either of you.

[Tywin Lannister]

What post about desperado? I also haven't paid attention to him. Didn't even know he was in the game.

[Tywin Lannister]

Oh there he is. Guy with the mariachi movie avatar. I forgot the name of it.

[Tywin Lannister]

"Goku, I swear to God. I will ride your ass on this one."
"Oh my..."
"DAMN IT, TAKEI!"

Vote Count 1.06

Clumsy Phoenix

(3/7)

- Tywin Lannister, MariaR, Alisae

Almost50

(2/7)

- Majiffy, Vifam

MariaR

(2/7)

- ɀefiend, Clumsy Phoenix

Not Chara

(2/7)

- Socrates, Imperium

Albert B. Rampage

(1/7)

- Desperado

Clumsy Phoenix

(1/7)

- Albert B. Rampage

Majiffy

(1/7)

- Not Chara

Not Voting:

Almost50

Notes:

- Sha la het sha la...[/color]

(expired on 2017-04-04 12:55:00) until the end of Day One.
With thirteen alive, it takes seven to lynch.

@MOD

you have 2 clumsy phoenix wagons[/b]

That's because it's a hydra, duh!!

What post about desperado? I also haven't paid attention to him. Didn't even know he was in the game.

u wot m8

You are easy to forget about apparently. I also remember your avatar better than your name, and recent activity of others made you fall to the wayside. I don't SR you right now though so it doesn't really matter.

[Tywin Lannister]

Damn phone. Also, I was gonna ask about the two clumsy Phoenix wagons but then saw mod answered it, so ignore that quote. I guess it was just a mistake.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Desperado: so you SR ABR for his push on clumsy, but there are three of us on the wagon, and you've put me in the townie category. What gives? I'm pushing the same wagon, although I think I've made my reasons for it pretty clear.

[Tywin Lannister]

What's your Socrates read?

What's yours? I have early scum vibes from them, but it's purely gut.

[Tywin Lannister]

Things I dislike: Almost and NC wagons, the naked votes on those wagons (Vifam, etc), and the RVS voters still not changing their votes to a SR. Everyone should have at least one gut SR by now, so waiting to switch becomes scummy at a certain point. It's a way to opportunistically jump on a townie sheep wagon to push a mislynch. Keep an eye on those people. I'll reread and find out exactly who they are since I don't know for sure.

[Tywin Lannister]

It's also an excuse to keep feeling out the townies and see which ones to push/not push/budd/etc. I do that shit as scum all the time. Take a stance or get lynched. That's my opinion

[Tywin Lannister]

Speaking of Vifam: is this his new meta now to basically do nothing every game/pretend to not care, or should I SR him everytime he does it? If town, he's the perfect mislynch, but if scum, he's gonna skate by for a long time doing this.

[Tywin Lannister]

What's your Socrates read?

What's yours? I have early scum vibes from them, but it's purely gut.

He's my highest TR.

Posts like this are what I like seeing from you. The reason is that I now am almost positive that you two aren't scum buddies. You'd not call a scum buddy your highest TR in the game on D1. This doesn't mean one of you can't be scum, but it does guarantee that you aren't scum together.

[Tywin Lannister]

What's DBZA, and it's only episode 57? This damn DBZ show has been on tv at least since I was in middle school, which means like year 2000 or something. How many episodes are there, or is that a new show entirely?

[Tywin Lannister]

The last few pages suck. Let me get that out of the way. Nothing worthwhile has been said. It's all talk about motivations for TRs rather than finding scum. Imperium seems to be sorting players somewhat, but going in the wrong direction for it. Enough of why you TR someone. It's worthless. I personally don't care who TRs who. It just means they aren't in your lynch pool for whatever arbitrary reason. I also dislike motives and things being discussed, because all motives boil down to two things: town lynching scum and scum not getting lynched/mislynching town. It's pretty damn simple.

So since you're all here and ready to talk, let's talk. I'm about to go to bed, but when you all wake up, drink your morning coffee, and check the thread, here's what I personally wanna see: Scum reads/lynch pool and specific reasons as to why.

The rest boils down to fluff and makes people look like they're contributing/active while they say nothing. Imperium has done that to a T with their posts. It's all questioning TRs and learning motivation for them rather than saying 'I SR the following player(s) and here's why.'

So give that info and take a stance. Stop walking the fence and discussing everything except who to lynch. It's pinging me due to the constant fluff, and the only reason I'm saying it is A) because it may be your specific way to sort (although I find that it sidesteps the entire point to discuss TRs over SRs) and B) I want to get some meat and potatoes in this game. Currently, its some nouveau artisan food that's arranged all pretty, but it consists of a carrot, two peas, an eggsprout, and some chicken shavings. The game is starving for actual content.

Tl;dr: get to the point and give your SRs. Take a stance and say why. Not doing so is becoming scummy.

[Tywin Lannister]

Since we apparently all want to get TRs out of the way, do it and be done barring significant changes. Here's mine:

Town: Alisae, ABR, zefiend
Probably town, but will never trust them: NC, Almost
Null (more like idgaf about yet pool): Vifam, Majiff, MariaR, Desperado, Imperium
Scum lean but getting better: Socrates
Actual SR: Clumsy Phoenix

My lynch pool is anyone in the null or below slot. My real TRs are listed at the top. I never trust Almost/NC without confirmation, but they aren't getting lynched by me today. I've forgotten about MariaR/Majiff/Vifam for most of the game, but can't pick between them of who is more likely to be scum. Vifam at least I know acts this way as town. Idk Majiff or MariaRs meta well enough to say otherwise. Socrates pinged me early, but latest posts aren't terrible, and I don't have a specific post to point out as scummy, so that still leaves me with Clumsy.

Now, if people disagree with clumsy, feel free to discuss with me why. Shading ABP won't do it, because he's one of my strongest TRs. Unless someone can't point out his playstyle as specifically fitting a past scum game, I'm taking it as a definitive TR on D1. Alisae I know the best out of everyone, and I don't see him as scum here. Later posts pretty much solidified my change from slight SR to strong TR, so he's not getting lynched.

So my pool: Clumsy, Majifd, Vifam, MariaR, Deperado, Imperium, Socrates

I'll lynch any of those with a decent case and the right players on the wagon. I also may change my mind and put some into the 'not lynching yet' column, but that's my starting point. If anyone overlaps with their reads, we should discuss and narrow the lynch pool down further.

If anyone has a case on anyone else, give it. Make it count. I haven't seen a legit NC case yet, but I have seen a lot of useless/naked/sheep votes on the slot. I'll lynch one of those if they don't give a reason. This player list means that everyone knows better than to screw around sheeping and naked voting, so don't do it.

Also, I'll repeat: anyone with a reason not to vote clumsy, go ahead and tell me why. Otherwise, why aren't you also SRing the slot? If they flip scum, any fence sitter should be the subsequent lynches, and yes, I'm playing pre-flip associations. If you take a hard town stance on them, at least I know you weren't playing both sides in hopes of derailing the lynch but leaving open the bus possibility if necessary.

So again: give your lynch pool and let's see where everyone overlaps. This isn't that difficult.

[Tywin Lannister]

The last few pages suck. Let me get that out of the way. Nothing worthwhile has been said. It's all talk about motivations for TRs rather than finding scum. Imperium seems to be sorting players somewhat, but going in the wrong direction for it. Enough of why you TR someone. It's worthless. I personally don't care who TRs who. It just means they aren't in your lynch pool for whatever arbitrary reason. I also dislike motives and things being discussed, because all motives boil down to two things: town lynching scum and scum not getting lynched/mislynching town. It's pretty damn simple.

So since you're all here and ready to talk, let's talk. I'm about to go to bed, but when you all wake up, drink your morning coffee, and check the thread, here's what I personally wanna see: Scum reads/lynch pool and specific reasons as to why.

The rest boils down to fluff and makes people look like they're contributing/active while they say nothing. Imperium has done that to a T with their posts. It's all questioning TRs and learning motivation for them rather than saying 'I SR the following player(s) and here's why.'

So give that info and take a stance. Stop walking the fence and discussing everything except who to lynch. It's pinging me due to the constant fluff, and the only reason I'm saying it is A) because it may be your specific way to sort (although I find that it sidesteps the entire point to discuss TRs over SRs) and B) I want to get some meat and potatoes in this game. Currently, its some nouveau artisan food that's arranged all pretty, but it consists of a carrot, two peas, an eggsprout, and some chicken shavings. The game is starving for actual content.

Tl;dr: get to the point and give your SRs. Take a stance and say why. Not doing so is becoming scummy.

If this is to us you can take your condescending newb ass and shove it. We don't need advice on how to play this game from anyone, least of all you. We have a pretty damn strong town game and will solve the game our own way.

You should learn to understand different styles of play and recognize when town are trying to sort. You might learn something.

(Although the sheeer condescension you just displayed is more tywin-esque so good on you for that, but you don't see me criticizing your methods do you? No, good stand aside and watch how it's actually done.)

Me being condescending would be saying 'take your newb as and shove it.' Since I have much thicker skin than whichever head got all offended, I got a laugh out of it. That being said, I'm fairly confident I have more total time not only on this site, but also playing Mafia in general than what you apparently think. Nothing I said was 'newb' or even relates to what a newb would say. Even if it was, my point remains valid.

What it did say was all your posts were full of fluff bullshit that says nothing, goes nowhere, and doesn't give anyone your Scum reads. Instead of looking for scum, you've been looking for who TRs who. It's all bs. It's a way for scum to feel out town and see who is can be easily mislynched and who shouldn't be clashed with. It's also a way to butter up specific players you may find dangerous. Engagement is fine, but not looking for scum while doing so is not. I tend to cut through the BS as town, because it's not helpful to the rest of us. I love it as scum though, so if you aren't scum, you've spent your time helping them hide. You've spent all your time saying 'this looks town!' and/or asking others about their TRs rather than spending it trying to engage the null players or make scum give their reads. Again, this shows that you're more interested in finding who you should TR than who you should lynch, and that is consistent with a scum wincon.

There's nothing wrong with different styles of play, but yours is full of fluff and I'm calling you out on it. Since I don't know either of your heads' meta though, I've not made you into a SR based off of it. If it continues though, I probably will. Typing a lot while getting nowhere is pretty consistent with that. Go ahead and ask everyone why they TR everyone else all you want, but if I don't see any interest in finding scum, I naturally have to assume you aren't looking for them for obvious reasons.

Capiche? I'm still catching up though, so maybe you've given a read list/lynch pool in the next few pages. If not, then I'll have to ask again, and I'll keep asking until you either do it or get lynched. It's only difficult to do as scum, since only scum need to be so careful about what the say and who they clash with.

[Tywin Lannister]

Enough of why you TR someone. It's worthless. I personally don't care who TRs who. It just means they aren't in your lynch pool for whatever arbitrary reason. I also dislike motives and things being discussed, because all motives boil down to two things: town lynching scum and scum not getting lynched/mislynching town. It's pretty damn simple.

Town play, in a tired, half-assed nutshell, is being transparent and determining motivation. I've never understood why some people insist on only scumhunting or only townhunting because you're only playing half of the game when you do so; finding town means narrowing down your scum pool, reducing scum mislynches, finding people to scumhunt with.

Motive is also remarkably more complicated than that; you've correctly noted our win conditions but the path to get there is different for ever player, hence different styles. In addition, not everything a player posts feeds into their wincondition; there are emotional responses and there are things people say regardless of alignment, etc. If you don't take what people are trying to do into account, how can you make the claim you understand them?

useless/naked/sheep votes on the slot.

Could you call out these votes specifically?
I'd also like to hear you rephrase our suspicions on Not Chara, as well as Socrates; you note that our cases aren't legitimate, but there's no impetus for me to refine an approach until you show me it's broken.

So do the work for you? That's not how this works. I can and probably will, but it's not my job to scum hunt for you, especially when you're so averse to it. It's my job to point out your inconsistencies and push you to either be better if town or lynch you if scum. That's it. You've not shown me that you're town based on your posts, but it's also not enough to SR you either. Your suspicion is fine and I have no problems with it, but if you can't push a SR at all, it's certainly not my job to do it for you. That's on you, and since you have two heads, I'm sure one of you can come up with a way to convince others if you legitimately SR someone. If you are scum, it only helps you to have town push your wagons for you.

Convince me that NC is scum or don't, but to ask me to do it for you when I have the opposite read is ridiculous. If you have a legitimate case, rephrase it yourself.

[Tywin Lannister]

when you all wake up, drink your morning coffee, and check the thread,

*Pout* I don't drink coffee. Does that mean you don't want to talk to me?

B) I want to get some meat and potatoes in this game. Currently, its some nouveau artisan food that's arranged all pretty, but it consists of a carrot, two peas, an eggsprout, and some chicken shavings. The game is starving for actual content.

O'right Chef .. err.. Chief.

Seriously though, my stances are clear. My lynch pool is currently in Maria/Clumsy/Socrates/Majiffy/ABR. I don't SR read any of them in particular though. It's mainly PoE. You'd notice I haven't been voting anyone for a long time now.. just waiting for someone to do something that would ping me hard enough to merit a vote.

If it helps, I'm starting to think the Clumsy slot is a low hanging fruit, and even if Scum they're not going to last long and will definitely be found out soon enough. I'm not liking their hopping between wagons, but it certainly isn't reason enough for me to want them lynched.

I don't like ABR's over aggressiveness, but that's ABR as either alignment. If he starts lurking though I'd be willing to vote there, because it seems that -as Scum- he cannot keep up with the act for too long.

Socrates is meh. Majiffy is a total null and Maria I fear I'm a bit too paranoid about her since I've seen both her Scum and Town games and cannot tell the difference. In a game that has just ended a few hours ago I was SPOILED in the dead thread and still had doubts about her alignment. God! She could have hammered Town for the win and didn't, thus earning her a semi-confirmed status at MyLo.

So, while I don't have any actual case on any of them myself I'd be willing to sheep a GOOD case on either (keyword here being GOOD). Everyone else I TR to varying degrees.

My posts weren't really directed toward you, or anyone in particular actually. Imperium took offense, but my point is that it's been a lot of talking in circles and not going anywhere. D1 lynches are almost always mislynches of town, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to converge as a whole and see what the majority agree on. Simple wagons/votes don't do it, because most town think 'fuck it, they're not me so I'll lynch them' and are done with it. A better approach, in my 'newb ass that can shove it' opinion is to get definitive lynch pools from everyone and see where they stand. It helps get reads from everyone, makes scum actually work for it, shows far more motivation (which imperium likes so much) than just asking why they TR someone (it's fucking easy to TR anyone as scum, much harder to make legit cases on their fake SRs), and it makes everyone at least put minimal effort into the game.

So again, my posts weren't specific toward anyone. I just want to see a lynch pool and reasons why, regardless of how strong or weak they are, and if someone has a strong SR, I want to see the case. If they have a strong TR on my personal SRs, I want to know why so that I can rethink my position. I don't see a reason not to do this.

As for the rest, I appreciate your list here. If anything, it gives me a stronger TR on you and tells me more about your thoughts than remembering everything said 10+ pages ago and/or having to ISO you to know exactly what your reads currently are. So thank you.

[Tywin Lannister]

I also agree that Clumsy may be the low hanging fruit, regardless of alignment. I'd rather lynch scum on D1 than any townie, but I agree with the overall sentiment. I don't have anything specific to point to on others yet, so my SRs aren't solidified enough to move elsewhere.

My specific stance as town is almost always to be suspicious of absolutely everyone and only use TRs to move people from a lynch pool into an 'ignore for another day' pool, but I get why others feel different. That being said, the goal is to lynch scum, and if everyone hangs back to just survey the playing field and decide off of other people's efforts, things tend to get nowhere fast. Very few people have the motivation to bury themselves into the game and be town leaders, and since there are so many 'typical' leaders already in this game, i think it's a good idea to make things as clear as day.

So my stance again is that I'm not lynching NC without someone rephrasing their case on her, and if I really need to go back and find the naked sheep voters, I will. MariaR did it on the Clumsy train due to ABRs suggestion. Ali admitted she is sheeping. I know Vifam naked voted earlier. Idk what Majiff has done all game, so if I have the willpower, I'll probably need to ISO them. The rest probably aren't lynchable, and D1s are almost always about low hanging fruit anyways.

My reads are that desperado/Socrates aren't aligned, and one could be scum. Zefiend is a TR, but I can see his style as being scum driven. It's consistent with most scum styles by hanging back and letting others lynch themselves. I may be premature adding him as a TR tbh. Ali I'm pretty confident about. NC looks town. Almost looks town. ABR looks town. So I still remain with low effort posters and essentially low hanging fruit in my lynch pool. That may be an issue down the line, but their styles tend to align with the majority of scum players on this site. There's usually a scum leader or two whose active and looks like a town leader, but there's always, always, always a scum lurker/low effort sheep voter that's in the pool too. I think we can all agree that those types of scum players are pretty consistent game to game.

So long story short:

low effort lurkers are probably the biggest pool of scum players in Mafia, because there's usually at least one in every game. They aren't the players that help win/lose for scum in most cases, but they're still scum nonetheless. Finding one is better than mislynching a high effort townie. NC is more in that high effort category even though her later games have been kind of lurkey, so I don't won't to go there. Clumsy hasn't specifically shown me anything that would make me think 'town' at all, but neither has Majiff, MariaR, or Vifam either. I'm fairly certain that at least one of those four are scum. If anyone disagrees, let me know, but if not, I'd like to see thoughts on them from everyone.

Doesn't mean we have to lynch any of them, but I think they're almost all in the 'null' category for most. Those are the specific players I want to hear from and get others' thoughts on. The rest have shown enough to get a rudimentary read from. For me, I have no idea what to think of Clumsy, Vifam, Majiff, or MariaR yet.

[Tywin Lannister]

All seem like the low hanging fruit and easy to mislynch if they're town, but since I truly don't believe all are town, I think those 4 need sorting. If we allow it, we'll have another Xnad on our hands that will eventually get lynched, but better to do it D1 IMO.

Since I need to stop posting walls, I'll just do this:

@everyone: thoughts on Majiff, Vifam, Clumsy, and MariaR? Maybe even Zefiend?

@those 4/5: thoughts on the rest?

[Tywin Lannister]

Screw it. I just ISO'd Majiff and it's all fluff. He's said nothing all game, naked sheep voted Almost, when questioned he said 'Almost's posts are trash,' talked about not knowing mechanics a bit, said some more about dragon balls, posted a YouTube video, and now a prod dodge.

Since he will be back on Monday, maybe he'll address this then: VOTE: Majiff

Since almost everyone here is good at Mafia and have looked town in the game, I'm gonna go with 'lynch the low effort lurker' right now. None of it seems particularly malicious or scummy in itself, but all the things I just accused Imperium or Clumsy of doing/not doing (no scum hunting, fluff posts, etc), Majiff has done 100x worse. It would be hypocritical of me to go after the active players for not doing things when the low effort one hides in plain sight, and assuming we have townie investigative roles, one of the Clumsy/imperium/etc players will probably be checked out anyway. Low hanging fruit or not, I'd be inconsistent if I didn't vote the player that embodies what I've been preaching as an extremely common scum tactic. I just forgot the guy even existed most of the game, because he's done nothing to help advance it.

Zefiend: you said before that you were ok with lynching Vifam. What about Majiff? At least I know Vifam plays this way as town. I don't know Majiff's meta.

[Tywin Lannister]

(Input self meta on how I love being scum and hate being town wifom here)

I agree. Being town is boring. Being scum is way more fun.

[Tywin Lannister]

Although I really do like finding that one really towny player and buddying them so we can be bff's as town ^_^

Oh save it. We all like doing this as scum too. Anyways, at least you're posting now. I'm staying on majiff

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm pretty sure you had me as nullish but correct me if I'm wrong. Why don't you say why you sr me cause in my eyes that was a very random out of no where vote
Pedit: What's hedging? O_o

did you think i was joking when we had our conversation re: dragonballs or what?

hedging is you saying i'm either scum or wrong (town)

Oh and Imperium: no worries. I don't get offended easily, at least not playing Mafia. Everyone says things in the game that they wouldn't outside of it. It's part of the game IMO. If I thought I could get a scum player to out themselves somehow by being insulting, I'd do it. Wouldn't mean that I actually disliked them as a person or a player. It's just how the game goes sometimes.

My main point about the fluff wasn't to be condescending about your playstyle, but more my wariness of it, since I've seen scum go the same route. Not knowing your meta means I don't know where you're coming from when you go certain routes, and in my paranoid perspective, I can see scum motives for plenty of things that may not always be true. Does that make sense?

[Tywin Lannister]

guys does anyone wanna be my buddy?

Sure. Let's be Mason hydras with two votes. You vote with me and we can lynch the scums. If you're scum, then just bus all your buddies for some sweet TCred.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin I know my posts get lost in all the walls but I'm already voting Majiffy and for the exact general reason you have. I also gave a specific example of him dodging a pretty big talking point.

I was busy all spring break and last week so I'm not into the whole wall-posting mode yet, but I'm certainly capable of it.

My initial takeaway from Imperium and NC exchange is TvT motivations.

Desperado is still pinging me but I saw this type of play in TBD Mafia and it took a while for me to nail him as Town, so we shall see.

I realized that after the latest vote count. I've been losing track of a lot of players this game due to so many walls going up (I'm also guilty of this). But I don't SR you for anything I've seen/remember. I just don't remember many players mentioning you, so I added your name to the list of nulls that either need sorting by me or need comments on from others. When people don't interacting with specific players, it makes me wonder if they're scum buddies who are avoiding each other like the plague. Scum don't usually go after each other D1, so I'm hoping to either make them interact or see why they won't. Majiff hasn't interacted with anyone besides voting Almost, apparently because he thinks Almost's posts are 'all trash.' He's avoided the rest, although maybe he'll explain on Monday why. Mariah started posting now, so that leaves Vifam as the other lurker left. Those two need to either post and get sorted or get lynched. Everyone else has made a stance for/against at least a few players. Clumsy I need to ISO, because I still can't remember much from them past the scummy opening.

[Tywin Lannister]

@ tywin might have missed it but have you addressed alisae being your best townread but also prepping to scumread people sheeping socrates' nonexistent NC case

Ali tends to sheep a lot of cases (good and bad) from the games I've played with them, so I'm kind of taking that point as null. The rest of the content is what makes me TR them more than others. It's not like Ali is confirmed, but they're not in my lynch pool.

[Tywin Lannister]

What am I missing here with the NC case? Beyond that some of you have scum vibes from NC, what exactly is the case? Can anyone summarize? Maybe it's gotten lost in the shuffle, so I am assuming there is no case when there actually is, but I don't remember seeing one. NC seems to be the polarizing player where half of us TR and half SR her (give or take a few). So I think this needs to be addressed.

In my view, it's more likely for scum to be polarizing players than someone (maybe Majiff) who everyone agrees can be lynched. Then again, not everyone has has even acknowledged Majiff is even in the game, let alone give an opinion, while everyone has mentioned NC. That is the townie counterpoint for NC IMO. Everyone mentioning the same player means scum aren't avoiding them like they may be with Majiff, and in that scenerio, I think it gives town cred to NC. That's just my view on her slot that doesn't include her post content, which I don't see as scummy.

So anyways, what's the case? Why do you guys SR NC?

[Tywin Lannister]

Meh, I thought more people were on NC still than just clumsy. Just checked vote count and see different, and now NC says she meant Clumsy (the lone remaining voter). By the way you guys were talking, I had thought NC was run up much higher.

[Tywin Lannister]

not her or him, Tywin. check my sig.

and there were some SRs on me before. not that many, you're right. mainly i'm concerned about Clumsy at this point.

Ahh my bad. I've seen a few people refer to you as 'her' so I just went with it. Not referring to a gender in posts will make it a lot harder to structure sentences though.

[Tywin Lannister]

Vifam: what part of Majiff's Almost vote seem town to you? I'm just wondering. From what I saw, it was pretty much a sheep vote without any real reasoning behind it. They just said 'Almost's posts are all trash' which I don't agree with, especially compared to any/all of Majiff's. I'm good with the clumsy wagon too, but it's mainly due to the entrance and then lack of doing much. Majiff hasn't done anything at all though. I ISO'd them and there's no content. Your last few posts give more info than all of Majiff's combined.

[Tywin Lannister]

Majiff for the total OMGUS vote. Yep, he's scum. 1 down on D1. Not bad.

[Tywin Lannister]

He must be freaking out to be voting me. Pretty funny actually. I love when scum freak out and make stupid plays.

[Tywin Lannister]

On another note, I don't see what Majiffy is talking about here. I thought Tywin was actually providing reads and stances that are hard to retract later, and -aside from ABR- I like that we mostly have the same reads more or less.

Look again.

Lots of words =/= substance.

His posts are the epitome of fluffernutter look-good-do-nothing.

I love how every post you make, first on Almost and now on me (the only two people you've now engaged with all game long, and at least one being obvious OMGUS) is trying to say our posts are trash and full of words without substance. Everyone in the game can read, so your point is clearly false. It's a HUGE reach and comes from scum, because you have absolutely nothing else to use here. You haven't looked for scum all game long, hid like the lurker you are, and then when called out, you try saying my posts are a lot of trash words that do nothing and blah blah blah.

You're obv scum IMO. You're jumpy as fuck, freaking out over being called out, and twice now have used the same tired, completely false reasoning to vote people (two total). You've done nothing and have the nerve to somehow say others have, yet anyone can ISO both of us and see a clear difference. It's painfully obvious.

My vote will be staying.

[Tywin Lannister]

Hey Tywin.
I think you're being unreasonable here, just saying.

Explain. Did you read his case? He transfered his claim that Almost's posts are all 'trash' onto me, but no actual case that isn't easily proven false. ISO him. He's clearly OMGUS voting me now, which it's a clear reason to call someone jumpy and saying they're freaking out. It may be a poor choice of words, but unless he's a newbie (he claims I am to discredit me), which he isn't, then his case is bad, OMGUS vote is bad, and he didn't seem to SR me (or anyone else in the game except Almost) until I pushed him for a reaction. He failed IMO.

ISO him. Seriously, it takes less than a minute. See what I'm seeing or tell me why I'm wrong.

[Tywin Lannister]

On another note, I don't see what Majiffy is talking about here. I thought Tywin was actually providing reads and stances that are hard to retract later, and -aside from ABR- I like that we mostly have the same reads more or less.

Look again.

Lots of words =/= substance.

His posts are the epitome of fluffernutter look-good-do-nothing.

I understand you're new here but "freaking out and making stupid plays" is not a way any single person who has ever played with me would describe my scum game.

So you can try with a "lol omgus obvscum" argument, or you could try refuting my actual reasons for voting you. Which I presented.

Refute your case as presented? It's all opinionated conjecture. There's no substance to it. You didn't quote anything I've said and shown why you believe what you've said. You've made claims that don't hold up to an ISO. You've called me a 'follower' even though my posts have all been strong stances and made pretty clear about my intentions and why I think what I do. Everything you said was attempting to shade me by discrediting my posts, yet you have no proof and nothing to push it with.

No, you're clearly fabricating a bad/false case. It's obvious to me, but others can and should ISO me to see what they believe. It's not my job to change their opinions. They can read. Your case is based on assuming nobody will.

As for you, your ISO takes a minute at most and proves everything I've said about you. You're a bad case of the pot calling the kettle black here. You've done nothing while trying to claim that's what your 'SRs' are doing. Hypocrisy is not a good look.

[Tywin Lannister]

I love how every post you make, first on Almost and now on me (the only two people you've now engaged with all game long, and at least one being obvious OMGUS) is trying to say our posts are trash and full of words without substance. Everyone in the game can read, so your point is clearly false. It's a HUGE reach and comes from scum, because you have absolutely nothing else to use here. You haven't looked for scum all game long, hid like the lurker you are, and then when called out, you try saying my posts are a lot of trash words that do nothing and blah blah blah.

You're obv scum IMO. You're jumpy as fuck, freaking out over being called out, and twice now have used the same tired, completely false reasoning to vote people (two total). You've done nothing and have the nerve to somehow say others have, yet anyone can ISO both of us and see a clear difference. It's painfully obvious.

My vote will be staying.

Just so we have the chronology right here, I had a scumread on you before you voted me.

So technically the only one OMGUSing here is you.

Sorry, prove it. I've done an ISO on you. This is an easily proven lie. You're really reaching here.

[Tywin Lannister]

Note that Majiffy is making a holistic argument about which he is encouraging players to examine and see for themselves. He named a few examples, and it would be nice if he named more, but he wasn't asking people to take his word for it.

Tywin, you yourself admitted that you are being too wordy with your posts, you should hardly act surprised when a player goes the next logical step of accusing them words as being fluff. And please stop using the term OMGUS, you seem to misunderstand what that meaningless buzzword is

supposed

to refer to.

It does not refer to a player simply scumreading someone who scumreads them, it refers to instances of players using the FACT that someone is scumreading them and making a (to their perspective) bad argument for that read as further justification TO scumread someone.

So yes, the only person here who that term might theoretically apply to is you, Tywin. Good thing OMGUS isn't actually a reliable scumtell.

You're arguing semantics about OMGUS now? Here. I'll rephrase it so you don't have to worry about a buzzword being misused: In my (biased obviously) opinion, he's voting me and claiming to SR me only because I voted and SR him. It's obvious stuff. IMO, that looks very scummy, although it can come from bad town too. Since he clearly thinks of himself quite highly in regards to his Mafia experience (and has called me a newb for some reason), he can't use the bad town excuse. Due to that, what's left is a scummy player making scummy accusations that don't hold up to actual scrutiny, and since he hasn't gone after anyone else besides Almost (using the exact same 'case'), he isn't legitimately looking for scum and doesn't legitimately SR me. Actually, the same can be said for his SR on Almost for that matter.

I stand by what I've said. It looks fake to me. Funny how you can see my posts and say they're just wordy. Almost can see my posts and says I've made quite a few strong stances that if scum, I couldn't back down on. Majiff sees my posts and just offhand waves his hand and calls them all fluff, while giving no actual post quotes or anything to back up his reasoning. Add in that he didn't SR me before I voted/pushed him, and it all fits into place for scum.

If I'm wrong, I'd like to hear better reasons than 'well, he has an opinion...' He needs to back it up with facts, otherwise I will continue to SR him for it. It's not tunneling when I SR him before his recent posts, and the defense of him from others looks weird. If his case was good, he'd easily have a point, but my original points and counterpoints look far better to my biased opinion, and I frankly think he's scum here.

If people think otherwise, then tell me why it's TvT, TvS, SvT or whatever. Do an ISO of him though. ISO me too. Look at the differences. His only takes a minute so there's no reason not to really.

[Tywin Lannister]

This all boils down to Majiff saying my posts 'look' like fluff and making a false narrative in an effort to twist it into that. Since I've clearly made points and gave reads/stances, the wordy parts don't matter. They can be called fluff all day, but the overarching points are still full of substance.

Note that he didn't say these things before I voted him. He said it about Almost too, so apparently that's how he SRs everyone? He falls flat on his face with an ISO of him though, because everything he's accused me/Almost of is something he's done the entire game, with no actual stances/reads/scum hunting to back it up until *ding ding ding* right now.

[Tywin Lannister]

606 and 624 to me looks like town telling someone how unreasonable they are being, and it reads genuine to me.

So he's a TR? You disagree with all of my points on him, and disagree with Almost's as well? You haven't mentioned his points either. You just say he's calling me disagreeable, which you already know I am when I think I've found scum. My points remain though. I find his case an invalid hand wave that is easily proven false, and he's hypocritical to an extreme. It rubs me the wrong way, and regardless, he's made himself into a 'null/scum lean' that I wanted to push to actually contribute into one that instead SRs/voted based on illogical opinions, twisting words into a false narrative, and overall only doing it after he was called out. That's the definition of scum. You know this, so unless you're just trying to mediate, I wonder why you aren't seeing it too.

[Tywin Lannister]

Actually no, this isn't a TvT.
I don't believe that Tywin forgot that the clums hydra is scum.
With Majiffy they were like "Welp, 1 scum caught D1" and that's great an all but did Tywin suddenly forget about the Clums hydra? Because it doesn't read genuine to me?

Not at all, but you really need to ISO me. You're ignoring past posts I've made explaining why I moved. Are you Majiff's scum buddy? Lol if he flips scum, I will no longer be TRing you. You're chainsawing for him now and trying to shade me by ignoring posts I've made in the past.

[Tywin Lannister]

I haven't looked at the points being addressed yet because I'm not really focused on those.
I'll get to those when I get home.

You don't think it's TvT so you must think I'm scum here. Fair enough, I agree to be lynched if we all agree to lynch Majiff/Alisae immediately after.

Any takers? I'm confident in this one.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin you know better.

So do you. You're defending a guy that was the epitome of a useless lurker, because I'm not kissing his ass when I call him scum. You haven't addressed any of his points, my points, or anyone else's points. You've just ignored them all, called me scum for going after my SR and not staying on my first SR (Clumsy), and basically are acting like you're his scum buddy here. Your mock posts are bullshit. You're defending a scummy player by calling his attacker scum while not addressing any points anyone has made.

Your TR on him is based on nothing btw. You say you TR him for calling me unreasonable. BS. He never used those words. He's called me a newb and other things, but not 'unreasonable.' Show the post. I'd like to see it. He's going after me like a rabid scum dog because I put him in a corner, and now you're TRing him for no specific reason while ignoring all the scummy things he's done all game. You are better than this as town, which is why I now wonder if you are his scum buddy. You should either ISO him and actually pretend like you have a real reason to TR someone I hard SR, or don't get upset when I tget you lynched after he flips scum.

Again, I'm fairly confident in this guy being scum to a point where I'm good with being lynched if I take him with me. If he flips scum, Alisae has some s'plainin to do. Majiff reeks of scum vibes IMO. He's a hypocrite for saying me/Almost are scummy for 'fluff' and 'trash' posts while doing absolutely nothing all game. ISO him already. Alisae won't, but he may be the scum buddy. His mock post isn't a townie Alisae move. Instead of addressing what anyone actually said, he tried mocking me and then flat out lied about my switch from Clumsy (who I still SR). Scum Alisae does all that quite a lot. I consider it a tell, but I'll be waiting on a Majiff flip first.

Anyway, today looks to have been productive afterall.

[Tywin Lannister]

oh look Tywin isn't reading again.
I've provided two posts where I think he is pointing out how unreasonable you're being.

How is it unreasonable to be going after someone I think is scum? Because I'm tunneling?

[Tywin Lannister]

Yeah you're tunneling but it's okay you're scum.

Lol prove it. You're the scum here. Did you somehow forget that half the players in here have seen my town and scum games? If I'm scum, who are my scumbuddies? If I'm scum, give a case. Explain why and vote me. You also refuse to address my points about Majiff or Majiff's entire play this game, and you instead continue to deflect for him back on me. You're buddying HARD on Day 1. That's not a townie move whatsoever. Why are you buddying so hard on day 1 to deflect/chainsaw for a lurker who hasn't don't absolutely anything all game? What's the deal Alisae? Townie you wouldn't do it, because you're smarter than that. You also know how I play as town/scum, so unless I'm manipulating my own meta, you'd probably be able to see the differences.

Again, I'm more than ok with being lynched first if we agree to take out Majiff/Alisae either via lynch or other methods. Anyone that thinks this isn't a TvT battle should think about agreeing. I'm the least bit worried about being lynched. I'm worried about town winning, so if that means my death to take out scum, sign me up.

Any takers? I'll keep saying this until either it happens or Majiff/Ali get the noose. Doesn't matter to me whose first, even if it's me.

[Tywin Lannister]

The fact you think I'm scum just because I'm attacking you with Majiffy is loltastic.

btw I meant I'll case you or whatever or go prove you're scum or whatever when I'm at home I'm still at school now.

You're not attacking me. You're hard defending Majiff, and you refuse to address any points about why either of us think the other is scum. The ONLY thing you keep saying is that 'Tywin is so mean! He's unreasonable to someone he thinks is a lying hypocritical scum! Hes scum guys!' That's your case, and you ONLY made it after I went after your scum buddy Majiff. You're both so alike in why you SR others. Ironic

Nah, give a real case and make it count, cuz regardless of whether I get lynched or not, you both are screwed. That means I did my job.

[Tywin Lannister]

Sequence of events:

Tywin says he wants to get reads/vote/push from the 4 null lurkers: Vifam, Majiff, Clumsy, MariaR

Tywin sees Vifam and MariaR post. He's already been on clumsy and didn't see the wagon gain any traction, but there's still 1 lurker left in Majiff.

Tywin ISO's Majiff. Tywin sees Majiff has done nothing, his case on Almist was hypocritical, halfhearted, and looks fake.

Tywin voted Majiff and said maybe he'll get a reaction from him Monday. He states that his reasoning for going after Clumsy and Imperium (fluff, no scum hunting, etc) is hypocritical when the poster boy for all of that is in Majiff by an extremely large margin.

Majiff sees Tywin's vote and goes hard against Tywin, calling all his posts 'fluff' and 'trash' (the same as he said about Almost), and he votes Tywin. Tywin is now his second SR of the game and second player he's given any thoughts on all game. Majiff is being hypocritical, but scum tend to do that.

Back and forth between Majiff/Tywin.

Alisae jumps in to deflect and save Majiff.

Alisae now will post a case since he's home to further deflect attention away from Majiff.

[Tywin Lannister]

Regardless of any outcome here, I'm glad this game ramped up the energy. Tunneling or not, people all have reads on Majiff that they certainly didn't before. They probably have further reads on me too. Ali has thrown in some interesting tidbits as well. All in all, my hope to get reads from Majiff was successful no matter what happens.

[Tywin Lannister]

Feels like everything I say, Majiff says 'nah nah I'm rubber you're glue' and repeats it back, regardless of what's been said. It's just shit slinging right now.

Majiff: substance doesn't = word count, but it's clear my posts had substance, regardless of them being wordy. You mentioned the dragon balls a few times, said Almost's posts are trash twice (without stating why and never followed up on it), and then voted me after I pushed you into actually doing something. You still haven't. I'm still waiting on reads from you. Town/scum lists are a thing you know, or even a lynch pool would be nice. Any kind of engagement with absolutely anyone else would be nice. Any kind of actual case that doesn't repeat what I've said about you back to me would be nice. Any sort of read on those SRing you aside from me would be nice. Any read on those TRing you would be nice. Any kind of specific posts that prove I have no substance in my posts would be nice. There's a lot of things you could do to show that you aren't scum here, but you fail to do them all. Why is that? Do you TR the entire game except me and Almost, or what exactly are you doing to find scum? Please explain.

Alisae: still waiting on that case of yours.

[Tywin Lannister]

Majiff: do you really want me to post everything you've done in sequence to show how empty it is and useless you've been? I can. It won't take that long, but I'm sure it will be tedious for others to read when they can simply ISO you and form their own opinions.

As for the rest:

Words don't = substance, but no substance = no substance. You've done nothing all game and continue to do nothing. Other players have read my posts, which I doubt you have, and they've differed from your claim. It's pretty obvious you just make up whatever you can and hope it sticks, and when told otherwise, you just keep repeating it as if that will eventually make it true. Id say that you haven't read a single thing all game, and if you have, you don't care what's actually been said over what you want others to think's been said. Again, people can read, and everything you say is based on hoping that nobody will.

Tywin hasn't addressed points: I haven't? Again, do you just not read at all and think if you keep repeating things up that are obviously false, people will believe it? You're betting on mob mentality to be lazy and stupid here in a game that requires reading. IMO, you're barking up the wrong tree with the majority of the cast in this game. You may be able to get away with shit like that with other players, but most of the people here do read the game. I've addressed your points constantly, and the only response you give is to repeat the original accusation. It's frustrating as fuck, and if you're not just a bad troll, it means you're scum. You certainly aren't helping town with anything you've done, and I won't hold my breath for you to improve.

Everyone that SRs Tywin is scum: I never said this and again, you're twisting words to fit a false narrative. In that effect, you're voting me because I SR you. Ironic. I slightly SR Alisae now based on your flip, because if/when you flip scum, he's got a lot of explanning to do for his hard defense of you. You haven't even mentioned Ali all game, yet they are hard in your corner. If you were town, then would you not find that suspicious? Would you say your play is super townie enough for anyone to go balls to the wall defense for you on day 1, without any flips, any PR investigations, or anything else that can confirm you? What do you think of Alisae? Any thoughts at all, or would you rather pretend they don't exist?

All Tywin has done is say Majiff's ISO is empty: it is! Lol! Do you judge yourself to be an amazing townie player right now? Who have you scum hunted before I called you out? Who have you town read? What have you done to find scum? Why do you SR Almost, and why do you think his posts are trash? Can you give an example? Can you give examples of my posts being no substance and giving no reads/thoughts? Give examples if you truly believe that and truly SR me or Almost or anyone else. Do something other than saying posts are trash. Yours have not given reads, not scum hunted, not even engaged a single person with a question whatsoever. Nothing. That means you've done nothing and so by default, your ISO is empty as fuck. NC/Almost/Ali/etc should remember a scum player from last game called Xnad/Narna/Lil Uzi. Replaced multiple times, and only one player ever did much beyond prod dodge. You already have one under your belt. Congrats. I liken you to that player. I can find many, many, many of samples of scum doing nothing and hoping to hide all game long, and before I called you out, that's exactly what you were doing. If you are town, why haven't you engaged anyone with questions, given opinions or thoughts before being called out, or even followed up on your original case against Almost? If you truly believed he was scum, and you thought his posts were trash, why didn't you follow up on that? Do you no longer SR him, or is it because I've called you out that you now SR me? Why didn't you mention my name all game long if you SR me before I called you out? Why didn't you ask any questions or call me out prior to me doing it to you? See what I'm getting at? You've done nothing to help find scum or even help town get a read on you until I called you out. You couldn't even be bothered with two votes already on you, but when I mentioned your ISO and you doing nothing, you them SR me and made a bunch of things up to fit your opinions. As trump would say: SAD

Tywin has flatly ignored everything: flatly ignored what? I'm the ONLY person between us that is trying to engage and question the other one. I mentioned everything you've posted against me, but the problem with it is that it's all based on opinion with absolutely nothing to back it up. You flat out lie about my post content, I address it, and then you repeat it and say I just ignored it all. What do you call this entire post? Is it me ignoring you? It must be.

[Tywin Lannister]

i've been putting off properly wading through the argument between Tywin and Majiffy... i suppose i have to give it attention at some point.

This would be nice. If the majority of players don't scum read him for whatever reason, then there's nothing else for me to say. He won't engage me with answers or questions that aren't just mocking/repeating my words back, won't give examples to show why he believes what he does, and with Alisae jumping in to take focus away, it's becoming annoying. If he's going to just lie all game, make things up, and then repeat the same things no matter what, then there's nothing for me to engage anyways. I'll keep my vote where it is and talk to others. There are more scum than just him. Others have said they don't think it's TvT thoufh (Alisae against me, zefiend against Majiff), so if enough think this, then it needs to be addressed by all. If it's not TvT tunneling each other, then one of us needs to be lynched.

[Tywin Lannister]

As trump would say: SAD

Wait did you just say this unironically


I am losing it

You seem to not have an ability to read irony well, although at least you read something finally. It was one sentence that wasn't related at all to my case or points against you, but it's better than just ignoring everything. You instead just ignored all the relevant parts in an effort to troll. Good God you're annoying scum. I wonder how annoying your town play is.

[Tywin Lannister]

Protip: You didn't have much to say before, but you sure did use a lot of words to get there.

Pro tip: you can't just claim I have nothing to say as if it's all just unrelated words written down and ignore absolutely the entire thing with a one-sentence discredit post. Scummier and scummier you are. Can't wait to see you whine about it in the dead thread.

[Tywin Lannister]

@everyone: notice his scum tactics of deflecting and ignoring everything said and all the relevant points against him by hand waving, ignoring, and deflecting by mockery. Common scum tactic. Town would address everything. He never has and never will. Please lynch the scum already. Any experienced player not seeing what he's doing either isn't paying attention or doesn't want to, which would mean they have scummy reasons to ignore it.

List of scum tells from Majifd: discrediting, shit slinging, ignoring anything relevant, refusing to address what's been said, lying by saying different things were said/not said, mockery, trolling, never scum hunting, contradictory statements, no reads given, hand waving entire posts by claiming they're just words rather than structured thoughts, ignoring every question asked, etc. I can go on. These are my scum tells from him. He fits the bill completely, and the only reason he's not run up more is because his buddies don't want to bus on D1. Ali chainsawing for him looks pretty bad if/when Majiff flips scum btw. Take note please.

[Tywin Lannister]

i don't think Tywin said they would settle for TvT. they said if there are players who don't think it's TvT (of which there seems to be a few), they need to make a decision.

Tywin, i'm finding your apparent annoyance with Majiffy a little difficult to swallow. i can see you're going for it but... i don't get the sense you find him all that frustrating. especially if he's giving you so much ammo to call him scum. personally, if i believed what you did i'd be thrilled.

Address what I've said and claimed about him rather than saying it's hard to swallow me being annoyed at a troll. That's ignoring everything said to instead focus go on a 'feeling' you have about whether I'd be frustrated/annoyed or not. You don't know me personally, do you? So then you can't prove it one way or the other, yet you can prove or disprove the actual content of my posts.

[Tywin Lannister]

Everyone seems to ignore the facts and go for mockery/trolling instead. Jesus. I hope this shit doesn't last all game, otherwise I'd rather be lynched first. I don't play that shit. Address my points or take your trolling elsewhere scum. It's your only defense obviously.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'll just keep repeating this: Address my points. Mock all you want, but address my points if you aren't scum Ali/Majiff.

And Ali, give the case you promised. Kthx. Copy/saving this and will keep saying it until it happens.

[Tywin Lannister]

White chocolate yes

The worst kind of chocolate!

[Tywin Lannister]

White chocolate yes

meh.
white chocolate sucks.

Hey look, we agree on something.

[Tywin Lannister]

White chocolate yes

meh.
white chocolate sucks.

like you literally just rewrote what you'd already said

I agree with it too though. Shay makes scummy posts that ping me, which was why I SR the clumsy hydra to begin with. Clumsy's posts don't. There's a reason I went meh on Clumsy hydra and went to Majiff. If it was just shaz, I wouldn't have moved.

[Tywin Lannister]

Ugh this phone

[Tywin Lannister]

White chocolate yes

The worst kind of chocolate!

VOTE: Tywin

Ahahaha I lol'd at work and got weird stares.

[Tywin Lannister]

Hey, Clumsy head here. Work sucks. AMA

Hi Clumsy, what do you think about Rampart, and how is Rampart the best movie ever made? Thanks!

[Tywin Lannister]

White chocolate yes

The worst kind of chocolate!

VOTE: Tywin

Maria is now my TOP SCUM READ. No way TOWN!Maria would sneak in a THIRD vote on Tywin while making it look like a joke. We are waaaaay out of RVS, so "slipping a vote while nobody's looking" is an explicit scum move.

VOTE: MariaR

I mean, I laughed at it. I'm also pretty much consigned to the fact that scum will mislynch me long before I can get anyone to lynch them. For going after Majiff I've somehow became people's top SR even though they refuse to give any reason whatsoever or even think about giving an actual case. IMO, it solidifies that at least one of Majiff/Alisae is scum. I'd go for Alisae just for the hard buddying of a null player and for pretending to not recognize my town/scum meta tells.

Anyway, I figure I'll be dead before they are, but if any town finally wakes up and realizes that not everyone in this damn game are town and that they only win by lynching scum, I'm hoping my exchange with Majiff/Ali gets attention down the road.

I still would like to ask for an actual case from Alisae, because they promised they'd give one. They didn't even give a single reason to SR me. They refuse, yet town let it slide for no apparent reason. It is what it is. This is why being town sucks. The majority refuses to listen to logic, and town usually only work together after half of them are lynched/NK'd anyways.

[Tywin Lannister]

Then again, the big weakness in my town game has always been getting people to listen to my (usually) correct reads/cases. People just don't care, and I have no clue how to make them. Half don't read, the other half don't listen to logic, some go for emotions or narratives over facts, etc. I've never been good at making all townies with various play styles to pay attention, so either the right move is to do nothing for half the game until most of them are gone, or to stick your neck out and get lynched by scum/wrong town, because if it's not them, they could care less who dies.

What I can say for sure is that anyone that scum reads me over Majiff simply hasn't read anything or they're scum. It's that simple. Majiff doesn't have a case and refuses to engage with me, answer my questions, or respond at all without shit posting. Alisae has done exactly the same thing, and I CAN prove that it aligns strongly with her scum meta. I'm allowed to post past scum/hydra chats, correct? I can easily show what Ali does as scum compared to town, and this isn't townie Alisae. Anyway, I don't expect most to care, but this is why I prefer being scum. Scum actually work together and try to win. Town usually just screws around and shit post until a town leader does all the work for them (assuming they don't lynch the town leader for trying to win).

Almost, you know this at least. If you weren't in the last game, town would've lost. It took you to lynch:NK almost all scum.

Ahh sorry. /rant

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin, you going back and forth on your read on me is hilarious just FYI.

Why? Should I know your alignment already? That would mean I'm scum. All reads can be wrong, but your meta leans strongly toward scum here. I've seen you as town/scum in multiple games.

[Tywin Lannister]

What's really odd is your lack of actually trying to figure out if I'm scum or town. You just say 'scum' without reason or question or a case. You continue to refuse to give a case or even a single reason. Old MS meta would be to lynch you immediately for that. People got lazy and stopped playing to win though. You haven't tried sorting me at all, because you know my alignment already, and you aren't the same one.

[Tywin Lannister]

Lets go back to Clumsy

Just curious, what's your specific case on Clumsy? I know you've said a few things in multiple posts, but can you summarize? I agree with the opener looking really scummy, I dislike their vote on me without giving a reason (although I'm biased since its me), and I disliked them saying Ali is town just because he will TR Majiff no matter what I flip or any other outcomes happen.

I SR Ali partly because he shouldn't have such a strong TR on Majiff based on Majiff's content alone, the hard buddying is not coming from town, and disregarding my flip regarding Majiff is also fucking weird. IMO, people should at the most null read Majiff or slight town lean, but not basically stick to their corner no matter what happens on Day f'ing One. That's not coming from a townie that doesn't know anyone's alignments. So back to Clumsy, the TR of Ali after all of that looks scummy. The TR of Majiff and Ali after both refuse to answer questions, give a case, or scum hunt at all is scummy.

So clumsy is more guilt by association + some scummy posts, but not nearly as bad as Ali/Majiff not scum hunting or answering any questions presented to them. It's all mock posts saying 'it's soooo funny that you ask me questions! Lol! Hahaha!'

So I'd compromise on Clumsy if i had to, but I'm curious why others SR them exactly.

[Tywin Lannister]

Sorry I keep going on off topic rants. Let me rephrase:

Vifam: Can you summarize your SR on Clumsy?

[Tywin Lannister]

You think I'm dumb enough to try that? How about that I've retyped this a ton

What I can say for sure is that anyone that scum reads me over Majiff simply hasn't read anything or they're scum. It's that simple. Majiff doesn't have a case

Like this is empirically false.

And the rest of his argument for me-scum is that I'm not engaging him, well everything he's said has been addressed two or three times over. If he continues to ignore it, what more is there for me to say?

Oh and I note that I challenged him to go post-by-post and argue his case for me-scum based on the things he said he saw in my ISO

Did he do that? Nope. Just more shitpost lying.

I didn't? Another lie. I can find the post in less than a minute. It's only a few pages back. Either you don't read anything at all or you just purposely lie. Why? Have you read anything in this game?

[Tywin Lannister]

Majiff: do you really want me to post everything you've done in sequence to show how empty it is and useless you've been? I can. It won't take that long, but I'm sure it will be tedious for others to read when they can simply ISO you and form their own opinions.

As for the rest:

Words don't = substance, but no substance = no substance. You've done nothing all game and continue to do nothing. Other players have read my posts, which I doubt you have, and they've differed from your claim. It's pretty obvious you just make up whatever you can and hope it sticks, and when told otherwise, you just keep repeating it as if that will eventually make it true. Id say that you haven't read a single thing all game, and if you have, you don't care what's actually been said over what you want others to think's been said. Again, people can read, and everything you say is based on hoping that nobody will.

Tywin hasn't addressed points: I haven't? Again, do you just not read at all and think if you keep repeating things up that are obviously false, people will believe it? You're betting on mob mentality to be lazy and stupid here in a game that requires reading. IMO, you're barking up the wrong tree with the majority of the cast in this game. You may be able to get away with shit like that with other players, but most of the people here do read the game. I've addressed your points constantly, and the only response you give is to repeat the original accusation. It's frustrating as fuck, and if you're not just a bad troll, it means you're scum. You certainly aren't helping town with anything you've done, and I won't hold my breath for you to improve.

Everyone that SRs Tywin is scum: I never said this and again, you're twisting words to fit a false narrative. In that effect, you're voting me because I SR you. Ironic. I slightly SR Alisae now based on your flip, because if/when you flip scum, he's got a lot of explanning to do for his hard defense of you. You haven't even mentioned Ali all game, yet they are hard in your corner. If you were town, then would you not find that suspicious? Would you say your play is super townie enough for anyone to go balls to the wall defense for you on day 1, without any flips, any PR investigations, or anything else that can confirm you? What do you think of Alisae? Any thoughts at all, or would you rather pretend they don't exist?

All Tywin has done is say Majiff's ISO is empty: it is! Lol! Do you judge yourself to be an amazing townie player right now? Who have you scum hunted before I called you out? Who have you town read? What have you done to find scum? Why do you SR Almost, and why do you think his posts are trash? Can you give an example? Can you give examples of my posts being no substance and giving no reads/thoughts? Give examples if you truly believe that and truly SR me or Almost or anyone else. Do something other than saying posts are trash. Yours have not given reads, not scum hunted, not even engaged a single person with a question whatsoever. Nothing. That means you've done nothing and so by default, your ISO is empty as fuck. NC/Almost/Ali/etc should remember a scum player from last game called Xnad/Narna/Lil Uzi. Replaced multiple times, and only one player ever did much beyond prod dodge. You already have one under your belt. Congrats. I liken you to that player. I can find many, many, many of samples of scum doing nothing and hoping to hide all game long, and before I called you out, that's exactly what you were doing. If you are town, why haven't you engaged anyone with questions, given opinions or thoughts before being called out, or even followed up on your original case against Almost? If you truly believed he was scum, and you thought his posts were trash, why didn't you follow up on that? Do you no longer SR him, or is it because I've called you out that you now SR me? Why didn't you mention my name all game long if you SR me before I called you out? Why didn't you ask any questions or call me out prior to me doing it to you? See what I'm getting at? You've done nothing to help find scum or even help town get a read on you until I called you out. You couldn't even be bothered with two votes already on you, but when I mentioned your ISO and you doing nothing, you them SR me and made a bunch of things up to fit your opinions. As trump would say: SAD

Tywin has flatly ignored everything: flatly ignored what? I'm the ONLY person between us that is trying to engage and question the other one. I mentioned everything you've posted against me, but the problem with it is that it's all based on opinion with absolutely nothing to back it up. You flat out lie about my post content, I address it, and then you repeat it and say I just ignored it all. What do you call this entire post? Is it me ignoring you? It must be.

Majiff said he went post by post and I didn't respond... Right. Plenty of lies from someone that people think are town. He must just be bad at reading.

[Tywin Lannister]

If nobody will lynch Majiff (which is pretty odd based on his entire content and multiple lies/lack of reading), then I'm just going to ignore him from now on. There's nothing else to be done, and since he clearly will be sticking around until his buddies flip and people have some VCA/PoE to look at, I mine as well stop repeating the same things over and over in hopes someone addresses it.

So I'll considwr him nonexistent until either he will be lynched or he actually does something other than claiming I'm scum and repeating the same lies over and over. It's just annoying, and in sure the back and forth derailed the thread enough.

[Tywin Lannister]

So clumsy should weigh in before too many votes. And I'd like to see a few players summarize their reason for the clumsy SR regardless of me agreeing with the wagon. Vifam is one of them.

[Tywin Lannister]

Yeah, even I saw Mariah's vote as a joke. I'd have addressed it if I was higher in the VC though, but it's not a reason to SR them IMO. I'm sure there are other things to go on if Almost really wanted to SR Maria.

[Tywin Lannister]

Maria: it's legit, i'd like to lynch Clumsy.

Majiffy: i don't know what else to tell you. my read on Tywin did get worse after your exchange. and that's how people are. you can hunt that way and i won't begrudge you it but none of what you've listed is something i associate with scum over town. especially not things like projecting.
i mean, i've been tunneled by town where debating logically did nothing, and where when i pointed out how they weren't making sense, or outright contradicting themselves, it wouldn't help.

when i saw Tywin scum everything he said made sense and was

correct

... it was just off and in context you could see the scum motivation in his reads and how he chose to present them. it's pointless for me to keep examining your fight right now so i won't do it anymore. i'll try and figure you both out in other scenarios. i want to look at other players.

So someone not giving enough reason is a good enough to lynch them to you o_o

While I disagree with Almost's point about your vote, I do think people not giving reasons is scummy in general, and sometimes that's the best tell you can get on D1. That's my opinion on naked votes in general though. I highly dislike them.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin Chara are town Abr I want to tr could be bias
Pedit: I feel like not giving reason depends on the situation and it's rarely enough to lynch someone like it just doesn't sit well with me "Oh this person didn't give enough reason I'ma lynch them" isn't something I feel I'd ever feel confident in I would think you would want more data like ____ post is scummy etc but that's just a matter of opinion

True. I'm speaking in general terms for any game/alignment here, but I agree that it's not enough to lynch someone. It's more icing on a scummy cake than anything. It can be NAI since town do it as much as scum, but I think it's anti-town in general. I've always looked at it as something that can easily be avoided if town, because any read on anyone can be explained, otherwise there's no read to begin with. Not giving it tends to help scum do the same things, and scum not having to give reasons for their fake SRs only helps them if anything. I guess I just see it as an accountability thing that makes town's job easier and scum's harder, but it's not something I'd lynch over unless it's constant/never fixed when addressed. I guess my same point goes when people ignore questions or arguments against them, because it's another way for scum to get away with things they shouldn't.

Anyway, that's just my general opinion.

[Tywin Lannister]

Almost: I know you mentioned meta for Maria, but what am I missing? I haven't seen anything overtly scummy in this game from them. There have been a couple questionable posts/decisions and some weird votes going willy nilly, and it doesn't seem like Maria is looking to find/lynch scum (just my general opinion on overall post content), but I still haven't seen a smoking gun to hang them over. It's just been general apathy kind of play, which Vifam also has shown, clumsy has shown, and majiff used to show.

What's your smoking gun? You're acting like you have one, especially if you're willing to go full Titus (never go full Titus) on MariaR. What am I missing? I haven't seen their scum game (only one town game WWE), and they weren't that different from this one. They made a bad Mason vigi combo play with their partner and helped speed up an inevitable town loss, but aside from that, I don't see much different here. So is there anything specific to point to, or is it a general read on overall play?

[Tywin Lannister]

some weird votes going willy nilly,

Jokey votes, my friend. Did Maria place any votes "jokingly" in WWE?

Also, you've just missed the change her tone. She averted to a "you don't think I would take into account that you just played a game with me as scum and change my play?", which is an implicit admission that her play here is the same as hers in the Scum game I referred you to already. I mean, SHE CONCEDES that this is the same play, and you cannot see it??

Almost: I can't see it because I don't know it. I don't know the difference between scum Maria and town Maria, since if all reads like general 'don't care' kind of play. Vifam does the same thing, but I haven't seen their scum game either. So since I sort of liken their style as somewhat the same, I don't really know what to look for without a smoking gun. I know what you're getting at with the joke vote thibg, but it really could just be a joke vote. That's how I initially read it, and even if it could have been meant to sneak it through as you see it, I wasn't exactly full of votes to where it would've mattered. Context kind of ruins that point. Other than that, they are in my lynch pool still, but I'm not jumping at the bits to lynch Maria. If they got lynched and flipped scum, I'd consider it a lucky gamble over an obvious scum read.

We all agree that clumsy is the lynchbait regardless of alignment, but do you see Maria and Clumsy as buddies? Otherwise, who would be connected to them? I really haven't seen obvious scum tells is what I'm saying, and since Idk their scum meta, there isnt much for me to work with. Even if I voted Maria, it would be a sheep vote based on your read rather than mine.

[Tywin Lannister]

What's desperado's case on Maria? Didn't know they were voting there.

[Tywin Lannister]

I TR imperium after these latest posts. That's not coming from scum IMO, or at least, it's not a common scum approach to evaluate the game and explainin how they see it. Imperium even explained Alisae's read on me better than Alisae ever did. Anyways, they get removed from my D1 lynch pool, not that they were ever strongly in it anyways.

I'd like thoughts on Maria and Clumsy from everyone that hasn't given them yet, if possible. Since they're the leading wagons, I think it's a good idea to see why. I understand the Clumsy wagon, and I understand Almost's reasoning for the Maria wagon, but the rest I haven't seen/don't remember their reasoning. If Maria/Clumsy are going to be the two counter wagons, I think it needs to be looked at. I'm not against either since they're both either a slight SR or null. Clumsy's opener and their naked vote on me are all that I really remember from them, since that stood out as questionable and/or scummy. Maria I haven't seen much of anything aside their joke vote, switch to Desperado, a few posts about their scum meta, and some WIFOM thrown in. It's not a fleshed out read for either, although at the moment I'd be joining the Clumsy wagon if those remain my two choices.

[Tywin Lannister]

Kay, non-arbitrary sorting method that wasn't alphabetical was what I wanted to hear. Carry on.

especially when you I thought you already town-read them?

Also, where did we give the impression that we already townread Alisae?

Fuck, now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know. Maybe you had some interaction at some point that I misread or maybe I'm confusing something someone else said or maybe I just pulled it out of my ass.*

*Im not that old, relatively speaking, but I do have serious concerns about the quality of my memory for reasons that are beyond the scope of this game.

Too much weed my man. My entire high school years (and some college) are a blur.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Almost: I understand everything you're getting at, and I don't disagree, but what gives me pause is that you're building a narrative that has a possibility to go either way. Either it's true or it isn't, and most of it is based on WIFOM on what you or Maria would probably do if scum. While I don't SR you for this push, because you're not reckless as scum and already know you'd get backlash if wrong here, we're essentially playing with WIFOM arguments as to why Maria could be scum regardless of no real evidence. Yes, D1 is always a gamble (usually always a town mislynch too), but your argument doesn't have anything Maria can defend against. It's all speculation and narrative building. There's nothing to argue for or against it, and this argument can be said about everyone in the game currently. The Maria push is basically an RVS wagon in hopes that we randomly land on scum. The only thing to look for then is to see whose against it, look at whose in the counter wagon, and see if there's any scum buddies pushing the other way. I'm always wary of the easy wagon that too many people are eager to join on D1, since that usually means scum are on it, but the Maria case needs more IMO than a WIFOM narrative to be legitimate. If she flips town, what info is really gained from it? I don't see what we'd learn aside from two townies dead after the NK, and since the argument doesn't have much for Maria to discuss IMO, idk how it sorts her here.

I still want those on either wagon to give their reasons, those on neither to give their thoughts on the two wagons, and Maria/Clumsy to comment on the counter wagon. There's more to be said here than what's been going on, and since the focus is all over the place right now, I think it needs to be reigned in on the two vote leaders.

@everyone else: Ignore the rest of the cast for a post or two and give thoughts on the two current wagons. This needs to be addressed one way or the other before a lynch happens.

[Tywin Lannister]

I also think Clumsy is still a better bet based on some scummy posts, a bad vote with no reasoning behind it, and the general 'my meta is to be SR so I'm town guys' stance. I don't like it, and the whole 'clumsy is lynchbait' argument also seems to be a hard push elsewhere. IF clumsy is scum, it could mean Almost is too, since he put the possibility out there that Clumsy, if scum, will be lynched in a day or two anyways. If that's the case, then why not now? What exactly makes Maria a better bet? I just don't see it. If it's all based on WIFOM or narrative building, than Clumsy is exactly the same gamble as Maria, but with a few scummy posts to add to the mix. Clumsy even admitted to being afraid to vote or take a stance due to being SR for it, but that's a weird stance to take as town. I stick my neck out constantly when town, because what do I care if I get lynched? If I think someone's scum, I go after them and see what happens. I don't worry about what others will think. The only time I care is when I'm scum or third party, because my chance of winning goes down drastically when I'm lynched as scum, and I lose right out when lynched as third party.

Idk, I just still feel like there's more there to gamble on Clumsy than there is on Maria. I'd need more than what Almost has offered to switch my stance here. At the end of the day, I have to go with my reads over an unconfirmed player's, regardless of them being a TR.

[Tywin Lannister]

Clumsy: you think I realize Almost is right, so I am pushing you for an easy mislynch? So what you're saying is that Maria is my scum buddy, right? You'd have to think that for scum me to push you over Maria, because Maria being pushed by Almost would be far easier to sheep. Therefore, you must SR both me and Maria to take the stance you just did. Am I right here?

Okay, then assuming that, what exactly is Almost right about that you agree with? What exactly about Maria do you SR, and why aren't you voting that slot?

[Tywin Lannister]

The general careful/cautious play is what I SR more than anything Clumsy, and it doesn't matter if you've used meta as an excuse for when you're SR. The excuse part is a side note, so I can drop that and I still see your play as too careful for town. The opener read as if you were more worried about appearances than anything else, and later posts pretty much confirmed that. You even admitted it when questioned. That's what bothers me. Not wanting to be lynched is one thing, but playing the game with the only real goal being to not be lynched doesn't look right. You haven't played (in my opinion) like you've been looking for scum, but rather just being worried about getting SR yourself. It goes against town's win con to play that way, and regardless, if town, you could be NK'd at any time. So knowing that, why worry about being SR over finding scum? It looks to me like you're not worried about finding them, not to mention you seem to not think you'd be NK'd at all. It just doesn't look like a townie mindset. It's too careful and self conscious IMO. It pings me pretty hard, especially when you guys are new. If you were, I'd write it off as inexperience, but I can't do that with you both. Yes, clumsy looks more town and you look more scummy, but I can't seperate the two of you since you're a hydra, so I am going with the overall content put together. It just looks off.

Do I agree that you could be an easy mislynch if town? Yes, I do. It seems too easy. That being said, Maria is being pushed hard over a meta gut read, so there is a counter wagon in play, and you've been given the 'lynchbait' hand wave to take focus away. So it's not white and black here. There are reasons to believe you could be scum that ohviously scum don't want lynched, at least not D1. What gives me pause with that thinking is that Almost is a good scum player, so if you flipped scum and Maria flipped town, he has to know that he'd get all the flak and attention for it.

[Tywin Lannister]

EBWOP: '*Aren't* new' not 'especially when you guys are new'

[Tywin Lannister]

Clumsy, what's your opinion on Maria and those currently pushing it?

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm starting to wonder if Clum hydra is town I don't like how the 2 wagon choices have suddenly merged to me/clum hydra I feel like that means scum are content with the wagon choices because no other wagons are starting and no one of 2 wagons are getting majorly pushed it makes me think scum like the game state as is and we should be looking elsewhere I'm starting to get a few more townreads I'm gonna look at my list and cast a vote tell me your thoughts on this

Due to you two being the leading wagons, that's why I've focused on you both personally. Idk about others though. There's also not enough people who will go near Majiff for me to still waste my time with it today.

I do kinda question why you moved to Majiff now. I'll get to Clumsy's angry response in a few.

[Tywin Lannister]

So Clumsy's response to my questions have been: 'You're stupid and make shitty assumptions cuz scum and my eyes glaze over when I see your posts nah nah nah scum scum'

I guess shaz wants to get lynched. Can't even answer my questions, and didn't bother giving thoughts on Maria. Go figure.

[Tywin Lannister]

Clumsy: who do you SR (besides me) and what have you done to scum hunt/sort them? You keep defending this 'I'm so cautious' approach as if it isn't exactly how scum play. You're still more worried about being SR than finding scum, and the only real SR you have apparently is me, because I'm questioning you. Or am I wrong?

And yes, I see Maria as easier to sheep because Almost and ABR are pushing it. If I was scum and Maria wasn't my buddy, it would be easy to join there off Almost's reasoning and get little to no real blowback. Questioning you based off my own read/reasoning gets far more attention on me, so I don't think you thought any of this through very well. It doesn't look very good from my perspective.

[Tywin Lannister]

If you ARE town then my suggestion is to stop worrying about what others think and worry about finding scum. This 'I'm always SR, poor me' approach sucks, and Socrates says you've used it as scum before. Since there's a precedent, idk why you think I (or anyone else) should just take your word for it here. It's contradictory to your own meta. So how can you use meta as an excuse for looking scummy when you've literally used that excuse as scum before? It invalidates the entire meta argument from the start, and so your posts (shaz side) look way worse in that light.

Maria: why didn't you vote Majiff before you became a wagon if you SR him previously?

ABR: I want Clumsy over Maria at the moment. I wanted Majiff but that's not happening, so I'm compromising to the other leading wagons, and I think Clumsy is a far better bet. Maria just doesn't have much for me to legitimately SR them for, and I don't like voting someone without that.

[Tywin Lannister]

Although the move to Majiff looks way too opportunistic. Why didn't it happen when I was pushing the wagon?

[Tywin Lannister]

Like Maria voting majiff looks like a way to move attention to any wagon other than them/Clumsy. Clumsy refuses to comment on Maria, and Maria refuses to comment on clumsy. What if they were both scum? Lol

[Tywin Lannister]

Oh I still want Majiffy to hang, but nobody else does. That's probably a good thing, since there's too much coalesced pushback for something that is supposedly town. Scum would e let Majiff hang, but it wasn't to be.

Zefiend, if you want the wagon to work, you'll have to push it. I got discredited and ignored too much for it to work coming from me. The problem Clumsy has is IF they're town, they'd be smart enough to help push one of the Majiff/Maria wagons, but they refused. They instead SR me, which is pretty stupid in the scheme of things. They don't need to know I'm town to know my wagon wouldn't get enough support, so they're still the main wagon here. You'd think they'd push someone else with votes. Maria did after not liking Clumsy's wagon, but why didn't Clumsy move to Maria or Majiff? Since I'm not scum, then what are they doing exactly? They haven't even tried forming a counter wagon.

[Tywin Lannister]

Like Clumsy is all about talking in circles with how town they are for being cautious and not wanting to get lynched, but if they were town, their sole goal should be to get someone other than them lynched. The only confirmed player each townie has is themselves. So why hasn't Clumsy pushed to form a counter wagon? Stuff like that doesn't make any sense to me.

[Tywin Lannister]

You're still more worried about being SR than finding scum, and the only real SR you have apparently is me, because I'm questioning you. Or am I wrong?

We've given reasons for scum reading you, and it's not because you're questioning us. This is a great way of setting up being able to wash your hands of this lynch after it flips town.


P-edit: Shaz, I linked him our only scum game together, that's what he's referring to.

I'm not washing my hands at all. I've made it pretty clear that I prefer you over Maria, which should show that if you flipped town and Maria flipped scum, id look pretty damn bad. My hands are pretty much all over your lynch, if it happens, but me trying to decide if you'll flip scum or not doesn't mean I'm setting up future excuses. That's your game, not mine. Frankly, if I was scum, I'd let you hang yourself without commenting. As it stands now, if you do flip scum and I wasn't on the wagon, I could be accused of coaching. If you flip town and Maria flips scum, I can be accused of being her buddy. If you both flip scum, well that's game over anyway. If both are town, then I could be accused of buddying one townie while pushing another.

See how this all works? Now explain why I'd question either of you rather than just vote and let you continue to be SR without my input? Your lone read seems to be me, but since I know I'm town, my flip will then make you have absolutely zero reads. Is that correct? So you've done nothing to help town when you can't find any SRs being a lone townie. That's not something to be proud of post game, so when will you give other reads? If I'm scum, what have you done to push my wagon? If I'm scum, who are my scum buddies? Whose connected with me and why?

Think about it and let me know. Cuz as it stands now, you're just floating my name out there without any real belief in your SR, no push for me to be lynched, no actual sorting beyond just claiming I'm scum as if that makes it true, random WIFOM as your reasoning, no seperate reads, no follow up reads to find my supposed scum buddies, and basically just a lot of 'you're scum setting me up!' talk. I'm not scum and not setting you up, but I am putting my thoughts out there, and they are that you're playing too damn oddly to be town.

Here's a question for you: If I got lynched today and flipped town, what would you do? You would have zero reads since the only one you gave was a townie. Now what? Who do you SR then?

[Tywin Lannister]

My TRs (in no particular order): Imperium, Not Chara, Tywin, ɀefiend, ABR
My Town LEANS: Alisae, Desperado, Vifam
Null (and a pain in the back, so I might eventually sheep ABR on this one): Majiffy
Scum lean: Socrates (PoE actually)
Scum: Maria, Clumsy

Now clearly if I'm wrong about someone above the null then Socrates is the likely slot to move up instead. I feel confident about my TRs though, so will only consider reevaluating my Town leans and with GOOD cause only.

I agree with this list almost completely, aside from having Majiff and Ali in my scum lean/pool and Maria as more null/town lean. I flip flop on Ali a lot in this game, but I still highly question the hard Majiff defense so scum lean.

The thing Maria brought up and Clumsy sort of clumsily (pun intended) agreed with was that it's so rare to find two scum on D1 that it makes me question the whole thing. Legitimately, I could say the players I'm most paranoid over are Clumsy, Alisae, and Majiff, but I can ALSO see a possibility where we are getting played by a mixture of Not Chara, Zefiend, ABR, and Imperium. Desperado also looks too 'in the background' for my taste, because I don't remember them doing anything, and Socrates changed my opinion so I no longer have a gut SR there. Vifam looks like his usual 'idgaf' town self.

So there's three camps here as I see it. Either one or more of Clumsy, Ali, Majiff, Maria are scum, or we are getting played by the other 'on the sidelines' camp in Vifam, Desperado, Socrates, Imperium, Not Chara or we are getting played by the Almost, ABR camp.

The Almost/ABR camp looks town to me. It's too forceful with its pushes, and frankly, I'm probably a part of that camp anyways right now. For my own sake, I want to believe they're town for now. So that leaves the Majiff/Clumsy/Ali/Maria camp who have all the flak and votes, and then we have the sideline sitters who don't hard push wagons but vote them in Desperado, Socrates, Not Chara, Vifam, Zefiend, etc.

Obviously scum aren't perfectly aligned with these camps, but that's the player base as I see it. My worry is that the scum could be in the 'sit on sidelines' camp of players who haven't gotten any shit from anyone. Maria used to be part of that camp until Almost changed that, but this is my point. Nobody has really pushed the sideline camp players, and none of them have stuck their necks out to push the other camps. If Clumsy/Maria aren't scum, then we're barking up the wrong tree/camp.

I'm being paranoid here, but I honestly can see either/or with Clumsy/Maria. I just see more to SR in Clumsy's slot than Maria's, and Majiff won't be pushed. That's probably because Clumsy is scum though. Clumsy not pushing anyone just looks f'ing weird to me. A townie about to be lgnched should be pushing anyone they can that isn't them, because one is a for sure mislynch and the others are a chance of scum. Clumsy hasn't really done that though, and not taking the Majiff bait is weird. Really weird.

IMO, if clumsy flips scum, Majiff and Maria look real bad. One of them are then scum too, but not both. I'd go for Majiffy, and if he flipped scum, I'd then go for Alisae.

If Clumsy doesn't flip scum, then maybe we are looking at the wrong camp of players.


I know this post (and all my posts) are wordy in general, but I play using my phone so editing it doesn't work. So you get my rough drafts as the final version.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin.
Put yourself in a magical world.
Where Majiffy is town.
What's your read on me?

I still question the hard defense/buddying, but you'd not be a top SR. Id probably look elsewhere unless there was more to go on. Your read is based on the hard buddying than actual scummy posting. It's not necessarily exclusive with Majiff's flip, since scum would buddy a townie just as much as they'd want to prevent a scum lynch.

[Tywin Lannister]

Also, Tywin isn't reading my posts anymore than I am reading his if he thinks Almost was the first person to give Maria heat.

Almost hard pushed the slot. Giving heat isn't the same thing.

[Tywin Lannister]

Funny, Day 1 of the scumgame that Clumsy linked me to consisted entirely of jockeying back and forth between two players the entire day with not even the slightest hint of a wagon forming on anyone else, with one person going "I don't like these two wagons and think scum are lurking on the wagons".
That person was scum. One of those two people being wagoned were scum (Clumsy Phoenix themselves).
:
<clipped out for convenience>
:
VOTE: Maria

Hold on a second! So you saw the game had similarities with the situation here, and Clumsy was in a similar position to the one in here, and they were scum there, so you leave the 5 person wagon on them and join the wagon that had just dissipated on Maria??


Explain this to me like I'm 4 not 5. Because I would have stayed on the larger wagon of the two if I thought both Clumsy and Maria are scum (which I do).

What you just did is a classic SCUM move. It only leaves me wondering if Clumsy is your Scum p and you want the wagon on them to go away, or if they're Town and you want to not appear on the wagon now that it looks likely to go all the way.

What does everybody think of this??

This is exactly what I thought and was about to ask. Socrates went on and on about how Clumsy was scum in the other game and how similar it is here, but then votes Maria?

VOTE: Clumsy. Let's find out. If clumsy flips scum, this game will be very, very easy.

[Tywin Lannister]

Like Clumsy is all about talking in circles with how town they are for being cautious and not wanting to get lynched, but if they were town, their sole goal should be to get someone other than them lynched. The only confirmed player each townie has is themselves. So why hasn't Clumsy pushed to form a counter wagon? Stuff like that doesn't make any sense to me.

No, our sole goal should be to get scum lynched once we find 'em. We'd found 'em, it's you, we're pushing on you. You're doing it again.

Holy fuck, we've been talking about reads on: Zefiend, Socrates, MariaR, ABR
Mind you, those are just the ones that come to mind immediately. So your "you are just floating my name and have no seperate reads" is pretty blatant bullshit. You are sitting there lying your ass off about what is happening in the hopes that when we flip town (which you know we will), you'll be able to say "Oh but see just like I said, this and this!" and hope people don't realize that it's a blatant and obvious lie. We aren't "just claiming you're scum as if that makes it true", we have said -many- times now our reasons for believing you to be scum. You keep pretending we haven't because you're really hoping to convince people that we haven't, but literally looking at our ISO shows many times we've said "No, this is why we are scumreading you". We aren't talking in circles, we're talking incredibly directly and you are handwaving everything we say and returning to the same thing you just said. -You- are talking in circles.

But you are arguing that there's no way you'd get away with mislynching us. All the while making sure to try and bullshit your way to getting away with mislynching us.

If you flipped town, we'd look at the other people on your wagon and their reason for changing to a scumread on you. We'd probably want to look more into Zefiend, because as I've said he's a townlean but his current behavior isn't helping that stay up. Not sure what clumsy would do.

-Shaziro

You really seem to misunderstand what I'm getting at with every post. You floated random halfhearted names out there as if people will just sheep it. Your SRs haven't been pushed with much force, at least in my personal opinion (which is subjective). I'm just explaining how I see it, so stop getting angry all the time. You'll see post game that I was always straightforward with my thoughts, right or wrong. Just saying 'this person is scum' a few times isn't scum hunting or pushing a wagon. It's just randomly saying a name. You haven't given a real case on anyone (again., in my subjective opinion) that hard sells your belief that they're actually scum, let alone reasons why besides some WIFOM here and there., It feels like you either haven't tried or don't have anything to back up your reads, and because of that, my opinion is you don't really believe them. Not believing your SRs would be due to being scum and knowing alignments already.

The other aspect is that you seem to want to stay on the defense instead of going on offense after your SRs. Again, this makes me subjectively believe that you don't truly SR anyone. Even when I throw you softball questions for you to do something with, you still would rather not swing and hope for a walk. Maybe this is your playstyle in general, but if you get SR in every single game for this style, why do it? It's obviously something most people read as scummy, and I'm one of them. Again, your SRs feel halfhearted with little to no force behind them. IMO, it means you don't really believe these people are scum. It's harder to fake a SR as scum than to really believe it, right or wrong, as town.

Add in the fact that you're more worried about being SR than legitimately finding scum, the lack of joining the Maria or Majiff wagons instead of letting your own continue, and it just looks weird if town. I just really think you're scum here, especially since you guys aren't new, manipulate your own meta as scum, and there's precedent for this playstyle of yours while being scum. You seem to not want to even discuss that point, and any time I ask a question, you get all pissed off and start insulting over honest discussion. There's something definitely off about your slot.

Could I be wrong? Yep. I like your answer about if I was town, what you'd do. Thing here is that you don't have to be the lynch today, but who else should be? If me, what posts specifically look scummy to you? And who would be my scum buddies? Almost/ABR? Vifam? Who? I don't think my lynch would go through, so who else do you strongly SR that isn't just based on pushing your wagon? Etc etc? If you flipped town, your reads would still help town in the long run. At least flesh them out. The only reason not to is if you really are scum, because then those reads can be used against your scum team, and it's hard to subjectively pick the right players to give reads on when scum, not to mention that it's a pointless exercise if a scum player already accepts that they're going to be.

Oh and I know you've said 'many times' why you think I'm scum, but it's all WIFOM based, no real posts saying 'this exact post is scummy, or really anything that most would say is a legit scum tell. It's just an opinion based on me pushing your lynch. Majiff had the same opinion, but he lied plenty of times to get there. Flesh your SR on me out if you really believe it.

[Tywin Lannister]

When I say flesh it out, it means ask questions, sort players, do anything other than angry defense. When will you ask me a question Clumsy? Or do you both just randomly believe your reads without thought or question? When you're wrong, it's pretty much your own fault then, because you didn't try to find out. Apparently, only a flip of whomever will ever give you any info, because you don't ask questions. That's what I mean when I say you haven't scum hunted or tried to sort anyone. Granted, my opinion is subjective like always, but that's how I see it.

Pedit: is clumsy L1? Did he claim yet? I need to catch up.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm also ok with ABR hammering. But yeah, wait for the claim. Idk why he couldn't just do it right when he posted though. That seems odd. I remember my role without looking.

[Tywin Lannister]

Did you just hammer? Without waiting for a claim? Or is he L1 now?

[Tywin Lannister]

Side note: I'm done with the long posts. It was more about Shaz's playstyle in general than anything. I need to keep things concise anyways if I want people to read what I say. Something I need to get better at. I play on my phone so it's usually my thoughts coming out and no editing to make it more readable. Lots of repeating myself.

Ok, I'm good with that plan.

[Tywin Lannister]

zefiend is one of the other slots i like the least in this game. i dislike 660. two times calling Majiffy's case bullshit but it's never addressed once. surely if other players are listening to Majiffy, and Tywin is getting frustrated, zefiend would be able to say something against this awful case of Majiffy's. and if Tywin is town, which i believe there's a good chance of, it looks like a buddying stance on the whole affair.
659 has a lot of examination of other slots, but none of them are ones he's pushing. he mentions being pinged by Desperado but apparently there are bigger fish to fry. like Majiffy. but despite this scumread and push on Majiffy there's very little of substance regarding zefiend's read on the slot.
i'll have more to say when we've seen flips, but for now this is enough.
and unlike most slots in the game, i haven't found any compelling reason to actually townread zefiend. i question his inclusion in both Alisae's and Almost's townreads.

I don't disagree with this. Zefiend needs more sorting I think. He has been sort of buddying me and agreeing with my stances, but not really adding to them or explaining his position in detail. It's been a lot of agreeing with me and letting me handle it. We'll see. I don't SR him, but see no reason to ignore the slot.

[Tywin Lannister]

That looked weird to me too. Socrates wrote all that about clum then threw on a vote in Maria's wagon. It doesn't make any sense. Not SRing Clumsy after reading a Clumsy scum game is one thing (although a bit odd since it looks like similar circumstances?), but moving to Maria without even mentioning why was weird.

[Tywin Lannister]

Clumsy: your role pm, did it specifically mention freeza, his generals, or anything of that nature, or was the 'we're getting freezed by freeza' statement just hyperbole? Serious question, even if it sounds stupid.

Also, do you trust Majiff to have the dragon ball if you're lynched because you SR me and so does he, or are there other reasons you trust him the most? Using the same thing ABR said, if you hypothetically new we were town, would you still hard TR majiff, or is it connected toward his read on me? Just curious

ABR: I'm at work, but I'm here periodically.

[Tywin Lannister]

Nobody hammer. Good call on waiting for the rest ABR. Someone else may identify with what Clumsy said with his flavor role as town, someone may CC it, who knows. I sort of identify with the flavor they mentioned, although it's obviously not going to be exactly the same. If it was, we'd break the game. Still, it's giving me doubts and I want to have the rest weigh in before I do anything. I can't base a read of flavor alone, but that would be pretty hard to just make up. The other option is the mod did something that happened in Hogwartz mafia. As scum, we were given fake claim names (literally in our PM of who to fake claim) with seperate flavor text. Idk if that's standard practice for theme games though? Anyone know?

[Tywin Lannister]

Players who have disappeared and done nothing to find scum lately: Majiff, Alisae, Zefiend

Coincidence? If Majiff flips scum down the line, I will be saying 'I told you so.' That guy never got ISOd by anyone, or they'd SR him too

[Tywin Lannister]

Neverrrrmind. I'm a page behind. He's still scum tho, but I'm wrong with the disappearing thing.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm been lynched as town more times than I can count and I've never been lynched day 1 as scum and I am really trying to understand what I do as scum that makes me immune but as town I'm in ml city
Pedit: Hi hydra thing what's your read on me

Nacho, thoughts on this post please? ^

I'll give mine.

Maria: this should be obvious, but here's the reason: when scum, you're scumbuddies aren't going to start a wagon on you D1. It just won't happen. They'll shade and push others, and town's attention and vote patterns are always fickle af, especially D1. Scum almost never get lgnched this early, because scum aren't pushing each other and town don't usually listen to other townies who give cases. Overall, the game of Mafia is a mob mentality experiment, and what it's always shown is that the mob is stupid as a whole. It's only when most town are gone that town get their shit together and pay attention to everything and everyone.

On the contrary though, when town, scum can and will push wagons on you, and as mentioned before, most town are fickle and don't care about facts as long as a good story is presented, fake or not. Case in point: Majiff was proven to be lying on many of his points against me, but nobody paid attention or cared. They ignored it when I literally gave the exact posts that showed he lied, and then he'd repeat the lies and people like Clumsy/Alisae would agree with it. People like NC or Socrates would just say they didn't read it at all.

So yeah, it's entirely possible for you to always be lynched as town D1 and never be lynched as scum this early. This is another reason I dislike your wagon, and why I slowed down Clumsy's after the claim. WAY TOO MANY people are more than willing to lynch Maria for me to be comfortable with this. Scum won't bus their buddies on D1, and since I'm not scum, whose that really leave off of Maria? Whose left? I don't think she'll flip scum because it's too easy and full of people I SR mixed with those I don't.

What I don't like about Maria however is when she voted Majiff over Clumsy, because she TR clum, but when clumsy claimed, she said 'but fake claims!!!' That's a huge flip flop on a TR. That could mean scum.

So my thought is that if Maria flips scum, town has to lynch anyone that was really against the wagon. That's me and who else? I'm not worried about myself here if it catches scum. What I am worried about is if Maria is a scum driven wagon. Too many nulls or scum reads/leans are on it. Socrates switching to Maria after a long post about Clum. Majiff moving to Maria at the last second (scum slot of the wagon FYI), etc.

Maria looks town to me and always has. The case on her is bad. It's entirely either a sheep of Almost's meta read or naked votes from players like Socrates, or people pointing out small contradictions that many town do when not playing careful (as town usually shouldn't anyways). This counter wagon to clumsy looks bad to me.

Regardless, Ali/zef/etc need to weigh in. You know my stance on it. Again, TOO MANY people are too eager to lynch Maria for there not to be scum on her IMO. Otherwise, the next lynches (if she flips scum) need to be everyone that was against it. That includes me and a small minority of players apparently.

[Tywin Lannister]

Do Zef/Ali need a prod? Zef claimed to come back and give a big case on Majiff, but never did. He hadn't weighed in on Maria at all. He did mention he disliked clum since he thought they were townie lynchbait.

I don't remember alisae's stance on either clumsy or Maria. Clumsy could've been hammered and neither of those two were here. For that matter, it's why I mentioned Majiff too. Before Almodt unvoted Clum and a few people switched to Maria, Majiff was MIA as well. Clum could've been hammered and no info gained from that slot.

So now that Majiff's here and gave his stance on Maria with a vote, Ali/Zef are the two left I think.

Vifam: do you like/dislike the Maria wagon and why?

[Tywin Lannister]

I don't agree with the Clumsy lynch. I've said from the start that it seemed like low-hanging fruit, and Tywin made a great point about the lack of formation of a counter-wagon. I don't think the Maria wagon qualifies because of the nature of its formation. A few people independently making points about self-meta, scum-meta, and her generally bad posting from this game. It wasn't a fast pile-up. Also, of the "side-liners" consisting of {Me, Desperado, and Vifam} none of us came in and jumped onto any wagon. If anything, I think that that says that between Maria/Clumsy, Maria is more likely to be scum.

Literally the opposite of Tywin's claim

Also you're now voting with your biggest scumread against the counterwagon the person you're "agreeing with" is voting.

I agree with Majiff for once. This is odd. Gonna read zef' post now though. Skimmed past it and saw a Maria vote and frowned. This makes no sense.

[Tywin Lannister]

Zefiend: if you are town, then why can't you see WHY nobody else will even look at Majiff at all, question his lack of scum hunting, his naked vote on Maria (in a scum wagon spot) while not giving any reasons at all (he called Imperium 'genuine' in the Maria vote post, nothing about her), never ever asks any questions of anyone (aka he's not trying to sort a single person... Cuz he's obv scum), etc. Why can you somehow understand the exact reason why no wagon on him gains traction and anyone that didn't flat out ignore our exchange either discredited me by saying I'm a weak player, called me unreasonable in Alisae (did you find my case unreasonable? I sure didn't), and given excuses by others as to why he plays this way and can't be sum whatsoever? Imagine really hard why so many either entirely ignore Majiff's slot or discredit anyone that goes for him. Still wondering?

Scum won't bus their buddies D1. That's why Majiff gets no traction and why so many ignore him completely, regardless of what he has/hasn't done the entire game. It's so obvious it's stupid. It really is ridiculous, but scum won't let their bud get lynched. Maria isn't scum cuz it's far too easy to lynch her. Nobody is against it except me, so that means scum are all on it. Shit wagon is what it is.

[Tywin Lannister]

NC: bullshit. Sorry, but that's false. You never legit pushed Majiff, and when I DID do it, you ignored the hell out of the entire exchange and made a few comments about slight SRing me. Don't claim a stance you never made, and doing so is scummy. Otherwise, if you did believe Majiff was scum, then why ignore the entire thing when others were pushing him? You flat out ignored it. Don't try claiming otherwise after that. You're owning an RVS vote as if that's a SR. Cmon. Really? I'm calling bullshit on that.

[Tywin Lannister]

It doesn't really matter, since Majiff won't be lynched and Maria will, but with so many people willing to lynch Maria and absolutely no pushback, it's pretty obvious scum are on it. That's common sense IMO. Majiff getting all the pushback means scum weren't on it. Again, common sense. You're all good enough to see it. None of you are bad/clueless players by any stretch of the word.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'd Maria flips scum, I'll gladly follow next seeing as I was so wrong, but i really don't think I am. It's too easy of a lynch and no one saying 'no' here. Everyone, from my biggest TRs to biggest SRs are on it for the most part. I think that means it's a mislynch.

Maria: you mine as well claim ASAP, because you're getting lynched soon. I've not seen anyone else really saying no. If Zef says yes along with Almost/ABR, I don't think anyone will agree with my position.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Tywin: Stop wasting your time and effort on a wagon that will not take off today. Let's have a flip first and then we can reevaluate.

Now, you may have reservations, but just play with me and assume that Maria flipped Scum. Would you still SR Majiffy as hard as you do now? Would you feel better about him? Or would it not matter at all?

I already know Maria's going to get lynched. I just don't think it's the right one. If she flips scum, I really don't know if it will change my Majiff opinion or not. Probably it would show that I'm wrong, but I don't specifically connect Maria's flip with Majiff's. The one connection is Maria's vote on him, which would say he's town, but it was after his wagon was derailed already too. It could go either way, but if Maria flips town, I probably have no choice but to look elsewhere. I may be lynched first anyway for being one of the vocal defenders of her slot too. So it's kind of a moot point.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin, i know you're pissed off about this, but calm down. i read the damn exchange. my read on Majiffy changed because of it and because there are players i'm SRing more now, he was a weaker early-game SR.

i didn't have anything else to say about the exchange because it was difficult to follow for me. i don't know what else i can say. so i gut-read from it and then moved on to exchanges that would actually allow me to form some reads i can rely on.

i'm not 'owning an SR'. i'm refuting zefiend's point that he was the first player to say something concrete about Majiffy. that's really it.

as for arguments about wagons receiving opposition vs. non-opposition: not something i look at day 1. i've been town and wagoned for a while in games. my pushers would always cite 'lack of opposition' as a reason for me to be scum, because scum were saving me for lategame or thinking there were better targets. or just defending me.

No, you're right. I was a bit out of line with that response. I don't SR you anyways, so your exact stance on it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. I honestly didn't realize Zef had made a previous case on Majiff until after I voted there and saw the vote count. So there were three including me, and I forgot who the other player was. I assume it was you? So that's my fault for not paying attention anyways.

The reason I'm all uppity about the exchange between Majiff/me was that it was given lots of excuses and hand waves, which doesn't look right. Even if it's TvT, there was a lot of content to at least get better reads on both of us. Too many said it was SvT (scum being me) though, and aside from the point about Majiff naturally exaggerating, I didn't see my points as being inherently scummy. My frustration was questioned by you, a few others questioned my tunnel vision, and others just ignored it and said their eyes glaze over when they see it. It's all understandable to a certain point, but clumsy/Maria didn't have great cases on them either, yet people want to lynch there and refused to go near me or Majiff (for the most part). I know others see the difference in pushback here.

Isn't it likely that if too many people are eager to lynch anyone on D1, then those lunches are probably not scum? Almost: you said you were in a game where all the wagons were on scum. What was the pushback like? Who defended who from your memory? What did scum do? Idk if I've ever seen a smaller game like this lynch scum on D1. It's only happened in huge games where the lynch was decided by the highest voted player by a deadline over a majority lynch.

[Tywin Lannister]

I read through that whole wall and my eyes only glazed over once or twice! You've made a few shit assumptions here, and I'm assuming that's because you're scum trying to push a narrative.

I like the confidence and conviction in this read; Socrates I noticed liked it too but managed to dismiss it by rationalizing it by Clumsy finding someone to spar with who had weak rhetoric, but I don't think that makes sense. If Clumsy is scum here, nothing changes with the discovery of Tywin; the wagon on them is still much stronger and, even if stars align and they manage to get Tywin lynched, they're still dead tomorrow - finding a player you can beat up as scum is nice, but it's typically not enough impetus for a change in attitude. Finding scum is different; as town, finding scum Day 1 means that even if you get lynched today, there's a roadmap to follow after you're gone and even if scum manage to lynch you today, you will still win if they fall down after you die.

This is a fine perspective in a vacuum, and I didn't dismiss it so much as hesitated to give it too much credit. Things like this ARE part of why I keep flip-flopping on him. But remember that CP's arguments with Tywin almost exactly mirror what happened between Majiffy and Tywin. Majiffy was being wagoned, came out with a case on Tywin, Tywin tunnelled hard, and Majiffy came out the other side looking better to the audience than he went in. There is a blueprint for this success already sitting in this very game, and it wouldn't be hard to Scum!CP to see that and strategically place his vote there, anticipating that he could rely on the resulting explosion from Tywin to only be to his benefit.

And remember that when he placed that vote he wasn't the Topic of the Day.

The fact that you think Majiff came out looking better and that I'm a weak player to be beat up, while others like Zef said they completely agreed with my assessment on it and removed Majiff's entire argument, and others just saying Majiff is super prone to exaggerations on top of exaggerations means I really question what you've read and if you've ever truly analyzed it.

Actually, all you've ever said about it was that your eyes glaze over when you see my posts, which means you don't really read them. So how can you take the stance you do when it's contrarian to what others have taken from the exchange? What exactly makes you think I'm a weak player to be beaten up, or that either Clumsy or Majiff's case on me had any validity whatsoever? I saw it as complete and utter fabrication on Majiff's part, and Clumsy I just saw as a defensive player that doesn't push anything they supposedly believe in. Neither of them have ever asked a question of me at any point, so can you explain why? Clumsy DID answer my questions, while Majiff NEVER did. Can you explain why? What makes that look townie to you?

[Tywin Lannister]

Maria, what the hell did you say above lol. You're one of freeze's men? Isn't the bad guy?

[Tywin Lannister]

I explained why Maria. Scum pushed you and town don't look at obvious shit like 'nobody at all pushing back.' Kinda obvious IMO.

Whatever. I'm just the guy that gets 'beat up' by obv scum who vote obv town off no case or reason at all and get away with it due to players like Socrates claiming they're somehow geniuses by lying over and over. It's ridiculous.

[Tywin Lannister]

Nothing wrong with trolling. Trolling won the presidency. Make MS great again! These scums, they're not sending their best. Liars, NKers, lurkers, and some I assume, are good people. These guys, they're bad scumbres. SAD. It's time to build a firewall and make the admins pay for it!

Speaking of that, who actually owns this site? Who pays the bills to keep the lights on? This site has been around for as long as I can remember. I played on a diff name over 10 years ago, and it was old even then. Many other forums use mafiascum rules as their basis too. That's how I learned of the site. There used to be a flash video for newbies back in the day as well, but I haven't seen it in a long time.

[Tywin Lannister]

I thought way more were on Maria. Maybe just nobody officially moved their vote yet.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'd Maria flips scum, I'll gladly follow next seeing as I was so wrong

we don't lynch people for being wrong. if you're town, stop suggesting to take a dive for no reason.

It's really getting tiring.

Also Tywin hasn't seen scum hard bus a partner day 1?

I did it in my last game, and I should link him to Mayor Mafia. Both scumbuddies hard bussed their roleblocker and even stuck to the bus

after he claimed cop

.

This is also the game that I first observed the thing that I scumread you for at the beginning of the game, NC.

Though if anyone does read that game, prepare to see a much younger Socrates. So much energy! So full of life!

Why are you linking past games like I'm supposed to care? I gave my experience, which is extensive, but based on making smart plays. Bussing a buddy on D1 is a gamble that's completely the wrong move 99.9% of the time as scum, and it only becomes a decent play when the buddy you bus is a weak sauce lynchbait player. Nobody would ever do that if their scum team was all strong. Linking games where you made a bad move, regardless of it paying off or not, doesn't change my opinion. It's frankly a terrible move to make as scum. Yes, ANYone can do absolutely anything in Mafia, and I promise that if you look hard enough, you can find a game where someone has done ANYTHING you can think of, regardless of how stupid or illogical.

That doesn't refute my point. Scum don't do it because it's a terrible move to make. If I play Russian roulette, I may not shoot my face off. I may live, but that doesn't mean it's stupid af. If people don't make the optimal moves as town or scum, that's their own fault and not something worth linking to excuse future behavior.

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates linking games to excuse absolutely fucking everything gets tiring to me. Hi, this player I don't want lynched isn't scum guys, check out this game I link. They acted scummy and stupid there and were town! Hi, this player I want lynched is scum guys, check out this game I link. They were Super Townie the entire game with not a single scummy thing about them and they flipped scum! So this means whatever I want it to mean cuz in the past, someone did something that I want to relate to this game that has absolutely nothing to do with it! Yo dawgs, let me link a link to my link so that you can link my link with a link.

[Tywin Lannister]

Isn't it likely that if too many people are eager to lynch anyone on D1, then those lunches are probably not scum? Almost: you said you were in a game where all the wagons were on scum. What was the pushback like? Who defended who from your memory? What did scum do? Idk if I've ever seen a smaller game like this lynch scum on D1. It's only happened in huge games where the lynch was decided by the highest voted player by a deadline over a majority lynch.

It was on D2. We (Town) pushed 2 scum simultaneously, and we also defended them (the town got divided). SCUM pushed their 3rd member and almost got them lynched. However, our 1-shot Vig took out one of the original 2, and we ended up lynching the other. The 3rd one that they pushed though won them the game because everybody was so stupid they took it for granted that this could not have been a bus.

Isn't it likely that if too many people are eager to lynch anyone on D1, then those lunches are probably not scum? Almost: you said you were in a game where all the wagons were on scum. What was the pushback like? Who defended who from your memory? What did scum do? Idk if I've ever seen a smaller game like this lynch scum on D1. It's only happened in huge games where the lynch was decided by the highest voted player by a deadline over a majority lynch.

It was on D2. We (Town) pushed 2 scum simultaneously, and we also defended them (the town got divided). SCUM pushed their 3rd member and almost got them lynched. However, our 1-shot Vig took out one of the original 2, and we ended up lynching the other. The 3rd one that they pushed though won them the game because everybody was so stupid they took it for granted that this could not have been a bus.

Hmm. So town lost because scum bussed the scum wagon and didn't think they'd do that? Sounds like me saying that here actually, although I had thought Maria was far closer to L1 than this. Clumsy has a wagon still, although they're just placeholder votes (mine is anyway).

Well we need a flip regardless, but idk who else would work if not Maria/clumsy. I'm clearly no good at pushing wagons when town, so it's not up to me.

I haven't seen any reason to personally vote Maria to do so now. The people I've seen vote Maria are as follows:

Almost started the Maria wagon if I remember right, and it's due to his personal meta read. There's nothing scummy about it, although it's not something I want to sheep.

Zefiend gave his reasoning being contradictions in Maria's posts, which looks legitimate. It was after the rest voted, but he gave his own reasons contrary to just sheeping. Nothing scummy about it.

Majiff naked voted Maria and then added his thoughts on why Imperium looks genuine. I double checked to not look stupid after saying it, and I can confirm that Majiff didn't give any reason for his vote. He didn't even give reason to SR Maria previously in the game. If so, can someone point it out, because I didn't find it. Naked votes are always scummy IMO.

Imperium wrote a few wall posts about things, and I didn't really read them closely. There were things about Maria contradicting herself, kind of like Zefiend said. It doesn't look scummy.

Desperado was the first to vote Maria, but afaik, it was an RVS vote that is STILL there. He hasn't given new reasons to SR or vote the slot, and not moving from RVS looks scummy. Correct me if I'm wrong about this desperado, since it's been so long since you've been voting the slot that I don't remember why. Who else do you SR and why? Any other reads to add?

As for the rest, I've seen players say they have no problem voting Maria or Maria's in their scum pool, but apparently they didn't vote her yet.

Pedit: imperium unvoted and Majiff apparently gave reasons above that I missed. So this leaves desperado to answer if his vote was RVS and why hes stayed on it so long.

[Tywin Lannister]

What reasoning from Majiff was I supposed to scroll up and see? I see 'cool story bruh' and 'scroll up' and that's it.

[Tywin Lannister]

Or was it cuz she's voting Socrates? That's a reason to lynch? What am I missing here.

[Tywin Lannister]

Words.. Stringed together... What could they all mean? What are they saying? What mysteries do the hold? How do we interpret them? They're just words typed next to each other... What possible code could we use to crack these strange messages? Nouns, pronouns, adjectives.. What are those things? I guess we'll just never know.

[Tywin Lannister]

alisae: not much going on. Maria prob gets lynched. Clumsy claimed and got saved, but is now kind of MIA. Socrates discredits everything he can, because he's probably scum with Majiff. Majiff voted Maria because Maria voted Socrates. Socrates discredited me and called Majiff a genius among us that takes a shit and smells like roses. I say something Socrates doesn't like, so he pretends he can't read or decipher sentences and that I must be high. Majiff did the same after I destroyed him earlier in the thread. Zefiend agrees, but Socrates says I'm a mental midget and a weak player who gets beat up a lot. Cuz Socrates doesn't read the same thread as the rest of us. He reads the scum thread.

That's about all I got. Majiff/Socrates are probably scum. Too many connections and hard buddying for my taste, but a flip of one should tell more about the other. More info gained on them than from Maria or clumsy for sure. If town wants to lynch for info, and they don't want to touch Majiff, then Socrstes is the natural successor. Just my weak, ineligible, beaten up opinion though. I'm addressing you so you'll come out smelling like a rose, because this Socrates player says so, and his word is good. He has a link to prove it!

Oh, and I agree about desperado. He is coasting.

[Tywin Lannister]

Don't be sad. Get GLAD! Now with an even fresher scent.

[Tywin Lannister]

Desperado was the first to vote Maria, but afaik, it was an RVS vote that is STILL there. He hasn't given new reasons to SR or vote the slot, and not moving from RVS looks scummy. Correct me if I'm wrong about this desperado, since it's been so long since you've been voting the slot that I don't remember why. Who else do you SR and why? Any other reads to add?

just about everything you said in this post is wrong

That's why I said I don't remember and asked for you to correct me if wrong. I don't pretend to be boy a super genius photographic memory boy wonder. I'm more like Ben Franklin fucking around with a kite/key, gets hit by lightning and then claiming I invented electricity.

[Tywin Lannister]

Why is Clumsy a TR if Maria flips scum though? Maria wouldn't vote Clumsy even when her wagon was the counter, so IMO, it's possible they're connected if they are scum. It's a weak connection, but it's still there. Clumsy wouldn't vote Maria either btw. They both went elsewhere. If Maria flipped scum, it more likely shows majiff is town, although that's also a weak connection, and her vote on him was after the wagon was derailed.

Just my $0.02

[Tywin Lannister]

Why ABR? Vote hopping? Or what? The rest I don't really disagree with. Nothing unusual anyways.

[Tywin Lannister]

AL of you are ridiculous. Take a look at the past few pages. See who actually discusses things. Take a look and see who doesn't. Any ideas yet?

This game is too easy for people to be this blind. Majiff is scum. Socrates is scum. Both are connected to the hip and lynching either one gives WAY more info post flip than either Clumsy or Maria combined. This is common sense. The only reason to deny it at this point is either due to egos clashing or because scum obv won't be voting their buddies.

The best lynch is either Majiff or Socrates. These are the players town should be lynching for both scum and the most info. This is how town will win. Pay attention to the big picture and you'll see what I see. Pay attention to bad tells like meta or AtE and you land on obv town like Maria. Stop tunneling on Maria and look around you.

Not a single one of you can say you hard TR Majiff or Socrates without either lying or using faulty logic to get there, and none of you can deny that Majiff's Maria vote is scummy as fuck. Majiff's entire case on me was a fabricated exaggeration even in the best light. He has NEVER asked any questions of anyone. Never. That's scummy as all hell. The townies here all know it too, but their egos are too big to leave a bad wagon, so they tunnel and conf bias.

If town wants to catch scum today before one of us gets NK'd tonight, you'd do well to lynch Majiff or Socrates. Them claiming all of my posts don't make sense is just stupidity and lies as well. It's a common scum tactic to discredit anyone with a case they don't like. You all know this, so why is it always ignored? Egos, that's why.

VOTE: Majiff

[Tywin Lannister]

Maria, you should rejoin the Majiff wagon.

Zefiend, you know you want to too.

NC, you were the first to SR Majiff. Is there any reason why you'd not lynch Majiff over Maria today?

Everyone else: look at THIS game and the actual evidence presented. Look at whose made scummy posts and who haven't, and ignore meta for this excersize. Who is scummier then? Maria or Majiff? The obvious answer is Majiff. Again, ignore meta (which is trash anyways and not a legit way to get reads when used by itself) and look at THIS game. The entire Maria wagon falls apart then, and the fact that nobody goes for Majiff and players like Socrates bend over backwards to brown nose Majiff and discredit anyone against him should say quite a lot to anyone that pays attention. Stop tunneling and look around you. Stop using meta and evaluate the game without it. You'll see thinks differently.

Alisae: remember a few games ago when Pine was scum, and I told town over and over and over that he was scum, but he would discredit me and absolutely nobody would even take a look at Pines' slot? Remember that? I do. Majiff is another Pine. Town are another Titus right now who would rather lynch to feed their ego over actually roping scum. Remember how Pine made it to Lylo and STILL nobody even looked at him? I was NK'd and the ONLY player to call him out, and what happened was multiple bad town defended him, pine discredited me and town allowed it, he NEVER scum hunted and town allowed it, and basically loud townies that never found scum at all like Titus ruined the entire game by themselves. Pine got away with only me ever looking at his slot. Town were too busy being terrible and conf biasing their way onto anyone they tunneled that specific day. They never lynched scum. This game is going to be exactly the same.

[Tywin Lannister]

Alisae: I'm obv exaggerating a bit about the Pine game for point of reference, but he was scum and town ignored him to tunnel others. This is how I see Majiff in this game.

[Tywin Lannister]

Stop using meta for just one post everyone at look at this game by itself. Do that and tell me if you still see the same thing. If so, then I'll vote Maria and be done with it. If she flips town, I said my peace. If she flips scum, then I'll shut up entirely. I just want people to look around and notice the contrasts here.

[Tywin Lannister]

Hello yes Maj and Soc are both scum I have called this shit now vote them tyvm

This. Maria is engaging everyone and answering their concerns. Majiff did not when three people voted him, and me being the wordy player, I was 'beaten up' for it, with the help of Socrates. All my posts are said to be gibberish nonsense made from someone addicted to crack apparently. That's what Majiff and Socrates say rather than addressing me in a respectful/inquisitive manner. They get away with it since nobody else calls them out. Zefiend was ignored when he agreed with me, and some just SR him entirely for it. NC didn't push Majiff they were ignored too. This stuff could write itself as the Scum 101 playbook.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Tywin: O've done everything I can do get Maria lynched. If the wagon on her dissipates and/or one emerges on Majiffy I'm willing to join it. I dropped Majiffy temporarily based on ABR's assertion he was Town.

All I'm asking here is for people to look at all angles and all slots before we tunnel into one player that in my personal opinion doesn't look like scum. That's all it is. If everyone legit does that and still lands on Maria, I'll vote her and be done with it. I just feel like the past 4-5 pages show a different tale here, because it's all the active players discussing Maria, her trying to answer, and everyone landing on the same meta read. Since I don't have that meta read (never saw scum Maria before), I don't see it to follow along. What I see is a few players not getting attention and the tunnel vision just ignoring their slot, right or wrong.

[Tywin Lannister]

Not Chara - Are you leaning town on Vifam still? Can you talk about that read?

i've been in a few games with Vifam. for now, this reminds me of his towngame.
functionally, the read isn't very strong. essentially he's off my radar for not doing anything that's bothered me. i can go ISO him later if you're looking for substance for your read, it's possible i've just forgotten about something.

and: Imperium going apeshit over Desperado's concerns probably means Imperium is town.

busy day today.

I agree with this. The problem with Vifam is that he never does much one way or the other, so there's nothing to latch onto and call it scummy. I don't think Vifam is scum here, but it's worth noting that the reason they're ignored almost entirely is due to lack of content rather than anything else. I've never been able to read Vifam due to that, because afaik, they do this regardless of alignment.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin: i'll ISO Majiffy today. please don't say i was the first player to SR Majiffy after chewing me out for claiming such earlier, however. ;>

but about 1366: curb your assumptions there, Imperium! you weren't even sure if she'd won, and you drew conclusions from it. tsk tsk. that's nearly as bad as my calling Clumsy town if you flip scum.
(the above is said in jest, of course.)

I did apologize for that, and I realized that I had forgotten about who the previous voter of Majiff was before Zefiend. I didn't even know Zefiend voted there until I first voted Majiff an said nobody was looking there. So I was wrong twice about that.

If you ISO him and disagree with my sentiments, then I'll drop it and move to Maria like everyone wants. You're a high enough TR along with Almost for me to rethink my position for at least this day phase if I know the ISO was done and everyone has a different opinion.

[Tywin Lannister]

Majiffy: I'm on my phone, so you won't get some fancy quote by quote from me, but I'll address what you're saying as best I can.

You SR me for wordiness and inconsistencies. Am I correct? You circled around that by saying its a playstyle and not everything, but it is something and blah blah. Either you do or you don't SR me for playstyle and as you put it, lies/inconsistencies. If so, then would you SR yourself for this same activity? You've been given excuses by others for just exaggerations on top of exaggerations to explain away things you've said. In my view, they're blatant lies, but when I mention them, you've mocked me instead. The things I've mentioned you doing seem to be repeated back to me, so if this is true for both of us, then you should also accept being a SR of others. To put it plainly, either one of us or both are being hypocritical. That being said, I question what exactly you think I've lied about? I can point out where you did lie and then doubled down after I addressed it. Can you do the same for me? If so, do so.

You not addressing issues: you addressed my posts here, yes. Previously, you just mocked or ignored me entirely, and when that wasn't the case, you've just stated that I'm high on drugs and don't make sense. Socrates also has said this. Do you disagree that a common scum tactic is to mock, discredit, and ignore accusations?

Everyone lies: okay? Then your SR on me is based on something everyone does. That's not a SR anymore in that case, and being wordy isn't a SR either. Others seem to have understood my posts, so why couldn't you? I doubt you have a comprehension problem, unless that unfortunate event only strikes when you're scum.

I'm saying gibberish and hope it sticks: I remember saying this exact thing about you, except that I addressed your points time and again, while previous to this post, you just mocked, insulted, and ignored. That being said, what exactly looks like gibberish to you? Why can others understand what you cannot? If everything I say is just shit slinging, then which parts do you attribute to that?

Piss off: I will, once you're lynched and flip scum. If you can't discuss anything without being an insulting snob, then just replace out or vote yourself. I'm playing a game here, which my goal is to lynch scum. I think you're the scum. You just insult me rather than discuss it. Notice how Maria talks to her accusers. Clumsy did too. What have you done?

I hope I won, peakmajiffy etc etc: umm... Drop the ego and play the game. You honestly look so pissed off because I called you out on D1, and obviously, it hurts your ego is scum Majiffy gets lynched so early. Am I wrong?

Everyone else is just illiterate: hmm, see my last point. Big ego that thinks they're the best, gets called out D1, insults everyone else for his failures.

What else is there for me to address here? This guy can't have a civil game discussion to save his life. Is his meta to always be an egotistical prick? If so, then count him as scum that's pissed he got called out D1. That's my opinion.

[Tywin Lannister]

Let me break it down under reasons not involved with playstyle/lying interpretations:

Majiff's naked vote on Maria was scummy. When questioned, he said Maria voted Socrates. So that's a SR?

Buddying with Socrates: they both say the same general things, hang back while others discuss, and discredit with sayings like 'are you high? That makes no sense. It's just gibberish.' I read it as: ' We can't comprehend anything being said since we don't want to address it'

General lack of SRs: Majiff SRs me. Interesting to note, he only did after I first called him out. Beside that point, I've asked multiple times what his reads are. He has never given them.

Ignoring/mocking/discrediting: common scum playstyle, but let's call it NAI for the hell of it

Repeating accusations back: word for word, everything Majiffy has accused me off has been a straight repeat of what I've said before him. The problem is, there's no evidence to back it up, and the general thread as a whole should shoe a contrast between play styles here.

Mostly ignored slot: this is NAI per say, but it's true. We've all tunneled on Clumsy/Maria and ignored this slot in general. Why?

Plenty of pushback: again, NAI, but even if others don't agree, Maria had too many eager to vote her whole Majiff... Not so much. The same could be said about my slot too though, so it is what it is.

Overall, I don't have an amazingly solid case. What I do have is the Maria naked vote, the slot the vote came under, and lack of reads coming from Majiffy. Even his push on me feels defensive over offensive, and IMO that means he doesn't truly believe in it. It's harder to fake than SR genuinely, and he's dropped my case like a rock when I dropped his. He faded to the background and didn't comment UNTIL I again brought him up. All of a sudden, he's super active! So he reads the thread, but doesn't comment unless he's SR. He's letting town hang themselves IMO.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'll wait on the ISOs from NC/etc and go off their opinion. This is my general case when I try to take out the accusations about lying and things like that.

[Tywin Lannister]

Why would I try to convince my scumreads that they're scum? That makes no sense.

If you're right, their role pm will magically change.

OR it's not about convincing me. It's about showing town he's genuine and had a legit read, gives his reasons why, and has prove to show he isn't making it up. This is Mafia 101. Not doing so is damning to him, not me. I know I'm town. I want him to prove his accusations that he's made, especially when players like Zefiend agree with me and Socrates agrees with Majiffy. Any townie that legitimately is trying to catch scum shouldn't have a problem explaining why they think what they do. Making excuses not to means he either doesn't want to push his only real SR or he cant, because it's bullshit.

My $0.02

[Tywin Lannister]

Ali on the Majiff defense again. I guess you're no longer sad. That's good. Welcome back to where you started 30 pages ago.

[Tywin Lannister]

I guess you're no longer sad.

Depression doesn't magically go away.

I know, I'm sorry. Bad joke.

[Tywin Lannister]

At least Majiff finally voted me. That's a start.

[Tywin Lannister]

Hey Majiff, now that you're voting me, did I piss you off enough for you to forget you were supposedly SRing Maria, or what's the deal? I thought you were down to lynch her, because she voted your boy Socrates once. What happened? I thought she was a strong SR? Did you change your mind?

[Tywin Lannister]

Guys, let's not have a pissing contest on whose life sucks the most :-/ pretty sure we all use the Internet to ignore real life for a bit.

Alisae: things will get better. They always do, although it may not be an easy road to get there. One day you'll look back at your current problems and question why you ever were so worried about them. New things pop up as you get older than dwarf the old ones, but then they get resolved and it goes on and on. The best advice is to just keep on keeping on. You'll have good and bad times in life, but suicide is never the answer. Every in human history has been depressed at least once in their lives (assuming they don't have a brain malfunction), and thinking about ending it all pops up at least once in probably the majority. Stuff like this is what will make you stronger for the future. Nothing is ever going to go perfectly, so the key I think is to enjoy the moments as they come.

Hope you feel better and things work out. Just remember that every door that closes means another one opens.

[Tywin Lannister]

Also Ali: did you not read last games' scum chat? Go look at what I said about you to the scums. There's a reason we took you out first, and it was technically a compliment. You're def not worthless.

[Tywin Lannister]

Hey Majiff, now that you're voting me, did I piss you off enough for you to forget you were supposedly SRing Maria, or what's the deal? I thought you were down to lynch her, because she voted your boy Socrates once. What happened? I thought she was a strong SR? Did you change your mind?

This just in: A player can only have one scumread at a time

Also Majiffy is scum for only having one scumread

Even though he has three

Stay tuned as this story develops

Oh I will. I've been trying to get the story developed for ages now.

Who are these mystery players whom you SR?

Why would any townie only have one SR?

What happens when their one SR is actually town?

When have you sorted these SRs to get a better idea of if they're scum or not?

What specific questions have you asked these SRs?

Why do other players ask questions while you don't?

What questions did you ever ask Maria before or after you voted her?

What have you done to progress the game for town?

Would you consider your play to be townie in general? What if others emulated it?

[Tywin Lannister]

Have a few more, on the house.

If you SR Maria, why did you unvote her to move to me?

Do you now TR Maria?

What exactly made you SR Maria in the first place?

What exactly changed your mind?

[Tywin Lannister]

time for a double ISO of Tywin and Majiffy. i'll be back in four hours.

Lol. Sorry

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin is this the first game of mafia you've ever played? Real question

Follow up question: Are you reading any of my posts or just like one or two words and then extrapolating what you THINK those posts said?

Really? I was asked this by imperium and mentioned a few times that this name is new only because I forgot my old one, which was made over a decade ago on MS. Is this your first game? Why ask that? It's pretty clear I'm not new, and multiple past games were brought up to discuss my meta as well. Did you just never read that? Do you read the thread at all?

[Tywin Lannister]

Majiffy: if you've answered these questions multiple times, then WHY is it so hard for you to answer once more in a single, coherent thread? You bitch about basic things constantly. You keep saying you answered things that either I missed or you didn't answer well, so doing it in a single post isn't this difficult. You're purposely trying to wiggle out of answering. Stop. It takes 2 minutes to type responses that don't involve insults or whining.

[Tywin Lannister]

They were softball questions too. But whatever, don't answer if you can't, but stop making excuses.

[Tywin Lannister]

So I typed a long post about how majiff's style means one of two things: either he is a good scum player that recognizes the basic distract/deflect techniques inherent in his insulting/mocking/ignoring way of posting, or he is genuinely someone that is always angry, abrasive, and really unhappy irl and I feel bad for him. Since we are playing a game that inherently revolves around the first option, I have to look at it as being the true one. Otherwise, I hope Majiff finds happiness in life and learns to recognize his lashing out for what it is and pulls back. I want to be able to congratulate him on his scum style post-game rather than feel bad for him as a person, so part of me really does hope he's just scum here and playing his cards right.

Three things that are common with his posts involve insulting, mocking, and ignoring. These do two main things: deflect and distract. We all know this. Mafia is a psychological game, and some are better at manipulation than others. Some can see through it too, because it's largely based on Jungian personality profiles. It also really depends on life experience too, but this stuff is still basic psychology. Reading others and filtering lies/bullshit from genuinity is a huge part of the game. Therefore, my assumption is that Majiffy is fully aware of this, and so he knows how to manipulate to essentially deflect and destract away from questions/cases/points against him. If he's as good of a player as he claims, then he knows exactly what he's doing here. I know I'm not the only one that recognizes it.

So here's the deal: Majiffy doesn't like real debate/discussion, because he'd lose in a fair fight. His tactics are to discredit the player over responding to the argument. He deflects from questions by claiming he answered them already, knowing full well that he hasn't and nobody will legitimately sort though 50+ pages to find that out. So when I ask basic questions that help resolve his alignment, he claims to have answered them previously and then never actually responds. I KNOW he never answered them previously, because nobody ever asked them. Therefore, he is purposely deflecting and ignoring legitimate questions.

His other way is to discredit me the player over any of my arguments, and failing that, he lies and repeats them over and over. Even when I asked the basic questions in my last post, he asks if I'm a newbie, is this my first game, and says they're all terrible questions rather than answering them. Again, it's deflect, distract, discredit. This is such a common scum tactic that all of you should be able to recognize it. You're all good at this and know what it is.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin is confirmed town too, fuck you haters. We gonna MAGA and win.

Lol! This game. I knew I was right. Majiffy was obvious to me.

Catching up now.

[Tywin Lannister]

For those wondering, I did request a replacement, but then I cooled off and rescinded it.

Looking at the flips and based on my own role, we should massclaim.

I'm willing to start.

Glad you decided to stay. Talk me through why we should massclaim? (I don't know the theory on when massclaim is optimal)

We shouldn't. Socrates my be scum, unless Majiffy was hard budding town. Scum want to find the vigi obviously. Don't need to convince town whose scum when vigi can just shoot them.

Not Chara is my gun to head scum choice. Originally it was a choice between Socrates/Alisae, but why would scum buddy so hard in the thread? It's more likely that at least one scum stayed off the Maria obv town lynch, and they wouldn't commit to saying Majiffy was scum or town. The person most on the sidelines in the entire 1v1, plus stayed off the Maria lynch while saying they'd vote there is NC.

Anyone have any reason why NC is obv town? Socrates/Ali would be too easy IMO. Scum buddying that hard with each other doesn't happen much.

[Tywin Lannister]

tbh I think Tywin and Majiffy are town getting into a fight.

Thoughts on this then, ABR?

Town. Desp was trying to avoid it and was only forced to give that answer when prompted by me.

I think you and Desp are scum.

This could be true too. Desp was the other sideliner, but was on the Maria lynch. If this is the case, I'd say Desp/NC. Clumsy was too close to being lynched to be scum IMO.