Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Alisae]

I liked Zef's content.
As for Imperium, they feel way different then they did in Nightman + Tammy is posting on the hydra + If they're town they're going to get nightkilled anyways so...

[Vifam]

I hope you guys know I'm skimming through every wall I see and by skim I mean I look for my name

[Clumsy Phoenix]

Hi, shazhead here phoneposting before falling asleep. Today was D&D night, clumsy is a player in that game and I dm it. He'll be doing game day tomorrow evening with another group, but I'll be around because I'm not in that group! I'll be around for like 10 minutes if you have any fast questions for me.

Sample answers:

"Is the wagon on you good?" Not in my mind, duh

"How did you know you would be scumread and clumsy would be townread?" Meta, it literally always happens

"Why were you reluctant to vote on tywin?" Because I was making that call without talking to clumsy, and didn't want to get scumread for it. And apparently, we have been.

[Socrates]

Shaz, have you guys rolled scum as your hydra before?

[Imperium]

I think I came to the conclusion that I was trying a bit too hard and I really wasn't going to get explanations from him then, especially considering it's 5 pages in. Also his concern that some scum might copy his reads at the time came across as genuine to me.

This makes sense as an explanation, can especially sympathize with the "trying too hard too early" bit.
Agree that him being concerned that he'd be giving the key to scum seemed genuine, although I expect that'd probably be something he posts as either alignment (if his playstyle is not to explain scumreads early, then he does it as both alignments or else it's an obvious tell).

It didn't linger at all, and yes I did start TRing him when I pushed NC with him. I TR'd him even more because I liked the sequence of posts that happenned. I didn't feel like he was trying to manipulate people. Like, I really liked his response to Maria's not so great post. If anything the only real problems I had with Socrates basicly happened because I wasn't reading. And I stated earlier I think somewhere, I was mostly just sheeping Socrates' case on NC.

OK. #218 just seemed like a oddly times post when in reality you started townreading Socrates like 7 hours earlier, but the more we talk about this the less I care about it.

I like the questioning in 758
And them trying to talk to me about the Majiffy wagon comp also seemed genuine.

Eh.
This really isn't all that compelling for me; two good questions does not a townread make unless I'm missing something significant.

[Imperium]

I hope you guys know I'm skimming through every wall I see and by skim I mean I look for my name

Just waiting for you to turn it on.
Is it true that you're just another member of the lurkmass now? Two separate people have said that your posting is essentially drifty nothingness now and that was never my impression of you before.

[Socrates]

I was going to ask why you focused on Alisae to ISO, Imperium, but then I thought it was because he was first alphabetically, but then I just checked and no he isn't.

So why spend so much time on Alisae, especially when you I thought you already town-read them?

[Imperium]

Avalanche-style readslist; you go from the person with the highest postcount and work your way down. The hope is that I spend time on everyone and not just Alisae and end with an understanding on the gamestate that is more in depth and confident than what it is now.

[Imperium]

especially when you I thought you already town-read them?

Also, where did we give the impression that we already townread Alisae?

[Imperium]

It's a race to the bottom between me and Almost. I say we quicklynch him first. If he doesn't flip scum, the mod sent the wrong PM. Then we quicklynch Alisae just because. If he's not scum, who cares. PL ftw. Then we quicklynch the other scums and win. I have laid out the entire plan for town, so this is an easy win. If we lose, I blame someone not named Tywin.

Not a significant reason at all, but I still like how playful he was in early game even given time and distance. For what it's worth, I skimmed his ISO in Timeshift and his initial approach there feels much different than his approach here; he seems a lot more calmer, focused, agenda-driven there than he does here, and my general perception is that players with his scum style tend to avoid spazzing out too much early game since they don't like running the risk of getting wagonned for dumb reasons.

I think it's pretty obvious what my role is if I say my flavor name, so I don't see any reason to give it out.
Claiming on D1 is just bad play lol. It got you and grey killed last game almost immediately.

Confused how "I don't know the flavor" = "my role and flavor is obviously linked" work together, but don't actually want him to respond to this point.
As a whole, this looks slightly >rand town to me; it limits his options claiming as scum although it's something that obviously needs to be kept in mind and the above addressed when he does claim down the road.

Why are you calling me jumpy for questioning you? That's not how this works.

My guess that referring to you as jumpy referred to your accusation that we were "shading your wagon" by saying that we liked Almost's approach to you but didn't agree with the conclusion, which wasn't an accusation that would make sense when our post was interpreted properly.

His approach to the mechanics (in that he seemed to be sussing them out in thread) seemed genuine enough; not sure that it would be something that he would think to fake, but I'd imagine that the types of questions he was asking would be moderator or PT questions if he were scum. Also not a significant towntell.

You have very subtle differences in what you ask and how you ask it when town/scum. I could be wrong here, but you're the best I've got so far early on D1.

You backed off your scumread here pretty much immediately - why?
What are the "very subtle differences" that you're referring to here? In the post before, you talk about Alisae's bad questioning that doesn't go anywhere which seems to imply that the difference between Alisae-town and Alisae-scum is that one asks pointless questions and the other doesn't, which is very different from "very subtle differences".

Why are you saying it is AI? I talked about it and I know I'm not scum. So do you have a reason for this view or just hoping to shade anyone that dares mention game mechanics?

This is another place where you're jumpy - AI means alignment indicative (which means that it's either a town tell or a scum tell) - Desperado's post in no way imply that it means that the discussion was scummy and yet you assumed it did because...? Even if you were mistaken in that you thought NAI meant "it can be town or scum" while AI means "it only goes one way", there was no reason to assume that one way was scum.

Mechanic talk, due to being able to go either way, is essentially NAI.

And this is small and insignificant, but mechanics talk can look town and it can look scum, which is what makes it alignment indicative. For example, breaking the game for town through mechanics is "mechanics talk" and yet it's pretty much a perfect towntell whereas the bad approaches to mechanics both Socrates and I have talked about are typically more indicative of scum. NAI means there's not a conclusion to be drawn, not that a conclusion can go either way.

Does that make sense?

Here's something that doesn't add up: if scum have the same wish as town (resurrecting a dead player), then it's useless to them. We know whose scum after a flip, so bringing that player back just gets them lynched again immediately. All it does is give scum essentially one more wasted day/NK. This can't be what they have them for, because it just doesn't make sense. Mine as well just give scum a free kill or something.

So maybe town can only use it to resurrect a dead townie, but scum probably have other uses.

This engagement also looks town; again, fairly confident that a scumteam that wasn't completely incompetent would have hashed out "how do the dragonballs benefit us?" and would have discussed it by now. Don't think that it's an approach Tywin would take in order to get towncred.

I also don't have a case on someone I need to push (besides clumsy, whose posts and extremely late entrance is the case in itself).

I don't think Majiffy's point that Tywin's Clumsy post is pretty much baseless is a bad one at all; hilariously enough, a case that looks like this is one that I could easily see Majiffy posting.

Tywin's later discussion of how happy he is to catch scum here reads pretty fake, but that's not necessarily a scumtell.

Side note: I like the Ali/Clumsy exchange. It changed my mind on Ali. He's not a solid TR. Scum Ali wouldn't have wasted the chance to shade me there. I'm pretty confident in that, far more than I was with the original SR. Ali wasting chances to shade anyone wouldn't happen unless town.

Could you talk about this with me?
The Ali/Clumsy exchanged mostly of Ali questioning Clumsy on things that had absolutely nothing to do with you; why would he shade you there? Do you expect him as scum to talk about his scumread on you in every post that he makes or is there a more reasonable angle that I'm missing here?

Unless someone knows his meta enough to say he'd do that as scum, I put him firmly in a town slot.

It's been well-established that this read is much stronger than the reasoning you put behind it, but, just for completeness's sake, this read is too strong for that weak as shit reasoning. One statement espousing conviction in a wagon shouldn't make him prep him up to your top townread, especially since he's no longer standing behind his conviction. If your point was that it was probably not something ABR would say about a scumpartner, then you'd probably (maybe) be right, but even then, not top townread worthy.

I don't buy the 'I'm always SR immediately' thing from the other head. If that's the case as town, then don't be scummy?

This is not a great point.
There's no reason for either alignment to look scummy. No one actively tries to look scummy in most circumstances. If it was as easy as "stopping being scummy", then no one would ever look scummy in games.

[Imperium]

Tl;dr: get to the point and give your SRs. Take a stance and say why. Not doing so is becoming scummy.

I liked his big gamestate rant here and how there's no reason to push TRs and only push SRs because talking about TRs isn't productive ever; it seemed like genuine frustration with how things were going and seemed like an attempt to change it. Yet another approach I find unlikely coming from scum looking for towncred.

Unless someone can't point out his playstyle as specifically fitting a past scum game, I'm taking it as a definitive TR on D1.

The expectation here is unreasonable. Your argument is "If X, then Y unless Z", people are telling you that your premise is wrong and explaining how your premise is wrong, but you're not giving those explanations the time of day unless they prove that the exception case is true when that's not anywhere near the problem with your argument.

Also, I'll repeat: anyone with a reason not to vote clumsy, go ahead and tell me why. Otherwise, why aren't you also SRing the slot? If they flip scum, any fence sitter should be the subsequent lynches, and yes, I'm playing pre-flip associations. If you take a hard town stance on them, at least I know you weren't playing both sides in hopes of derailing the lynch but leaving open the bus possibility if necessary.

The case offered on them at the point by you was "the case and the entrance", "he said he was scummy", and "he shaded me for bad reasoning" which I guess isn't the worst case in the world, but isn't anywhere close to a slam-dunk lock 'em up type of case. Why did you expect everyone to hard stances? Now that your bloodlust for the wagon has faded, who jumped on/supported the wagon opportunistically?

It's a way for scum to feel out town and see who is can be easily mislynched and who shouldn't be clashed with.

If you're a strong scum player, you don't see who can be mislynched by townreading them - you see who can be mislynched by pushing to mislynch them, which is something you've alluded to earlier in your discussions with Alisae ("if I wanted a wagon on you, I'd be pushing you") so I have no idea why you think explaining why people are town allows scum to gauge who is lynchable and who is not.

Your suspicion is fine and I have no problems with it, but if you can't push a SR at all, it's certainly not my job to do it for you. That's on you, and since you have two heads, I'm sure one of you can come up with a way to convince others if you legitimately SR someone. If you are scum, it only helps you to have town push your wagons for you.

"Doing the work for you" here implies that we hadn't done work at this point (we did). The point of the exercise, which I think I already talked about, was to see if you were actually aware of our case before calling it illegitimate, and this, for me at least, is fairly solid proof that you didn't. It annoys me when people dismiss cases or points of view for reasons that have nothing to do with the cases and the points itself, which is what it looks like happened here (and which I challenged you on before but you got too distracted with Majiffy to respond).

(the only two people you've now engaged with all game long, and at least one being obvious OMGUS)

I don't think that it's fair to say that Majiffy's vote on you is "obvious OMGUS", considering his 180 was made well before you had any mention of him. I disagree with him that you're doing nothing, but I do agree with him that your main pushes so far have been fairly empty (I paraphrased the Clumsy case earlier and it certainly wasn't substantive, and your townreads certainly aren't substantive either which isn't surprising when you don't think talking about them is productive).

However, I don't think that this game has been particularly dense so far (which is part of why I'm struggling as much as I am developing reads), and I think that pretending that anyone is driving the game harder than you are is dumb; I also believe he's ignoring a huge chunk of your play when he calls you the "fluffer nutter do nothing" or whatever the hell you said because it's clear (to me and Tammy, at least) that you're not just posting for the sake of posting like he's implying.

then his case is bad, OMGUS vote is bad, and he didn't seem to SR me (or anyone else in the game except Almost) until I pushed him for a reaction.

His case is bad, yes. You're wrong that he wasn't scumreading you earlier and you're wrong that a bad case automatically equals scum.

Sorry, prove it. I've done an ISO on you. This is an easily proven lie. You're really reaching here.

This type of post is the type that I can't really see coming from scum Tywin; he's demonstrated several times this game that he occasionally jumps before thinking, but the reasoning that is most accessible for me is that he does things like this because he believes very strongly in what he's saying. As scum, I'd imagine that the conviction would be faked and thus he'd be a little more wary of leaving obvious lies in his cases against people.

This all boils down to Majiff saying my posts 'look' like fluff and making a false narrative in an effort to twist it into that. Since I've clearly made points and gave reads/stances, the wordy parts don't matter. They can be called fluff all day, but the overarching points are still full of substance.

I agree that Majiffy's approach to you is exaggeration and exaggeration and more exaggeration. If it were anyone else then I'd probably be right by your side lynching Majiffy but unfortunately it's not and Majiffy is prone to exaggeration and exaggeration and more exaggeration.

Again, I'm fairly confident in this guy being scum to a point where I'm good with being lynched if I take him with me.

This is stupid. If you can't get him lynched in life, you certainly can't do it in death.

[Imperium]

Tywin hasn't addressed points: I haven't? Again, do you just not read at all and think if you keep repeating things up that are obviously false, people will believe it?

I think that you've addressed the crux of Majiffy's case on you. I also think that you've missed some things; there are minor things in this post, for one.

Everyone that SRs Tywin is scum: I never said this and again, you're twisting words to fit a false narrative. In that effect, you're voting me because I SR you. Ironic. I slightly SR Alisae now based on your flip, because if/when you flip scum, he's got a lot of explanning to do for his hard defense of you. You haven't even mentioned Ali all game, yet they are hard in your corner. If you were town, then would you not find that suspicious? Would you say your play is super townie enough for anyone to go balls to the wall defense for you on day 1, without any flips, any PR investigations, or anything else that can confirm you? What do you think of Alisae? Any thoughts at all, or would you rather pretend they don't exist?

You've had three major scumreads this game, from what I can tell: Majiffy, Alisae, and Clumsy. You became confident in Majiffy is scum because of his push on you. You dropped your strong townread on Alisae because of his push on you. One of your reasons for suspecting Clumsy was his shade on you due to the flavor talk. The "everyone that SRs Tywin is scum" statement isn't entirely unfair; it's exaggerated, as are most things Majiffy says, but it's not completely off base.

All Tywin has done is say Majiff's ISO is empty: it is! Lol!

I don't think Majiffy is winning an award for being the most useful townie ever, but this statement is an exaggeration, just like Majiffy's statement is an exaggeration about you.

I can go more in depth into your Majiffy read if you'd like, Tywin, but a majority of it seems to be 1) Majiffy OMGUSing you (he suspected you earlier, and I don't think it's very likely Majiffy would launch into an all-out offense on you when you were already pushing Clumsy and had him in a pool and not his top scumread), his ISO is empty (fairly devoid of content before the push on you, sure. outside of his townrange, probably not.), and his push on you is full of exaggerations and lies (extreme exaggeration is what Majiffy does sometimes, most of the points I've seen have at least a casual relationship with the truth).

[Imperium]

And as a summation of that read, ending up pretty confident that Tywin as town. I think the assertion that he's fluffing and just posting for the sake of posting is pretty ridiculous; there are many posts that take pretty impressive skill to finesse as skill, and from what I've read from his scumplay, it's fairly standard in that he doesn't attempt to get towncred by feigning unfamiliarity with mechanics he should have talked about in the scum PT already. I think that a lot of his tunnels seem fairly genuine; his Majiffy read in particular does seem pretty strongly town even while the grandstanding he did around the Clumsy read didn't (although the read as a whole did). I like how strongly he's driving the game forward, I like how strongly he seems to care about how the day is going and how he tries multiple times to get it on track, and I've liked his interactions with Alisae and think that his townread to scumread to mehread transition, like Alisae's read on Tywin, is probably too all over the place and cracked out to be coming from scum. I think that his offer to lynch himself looked genuine.

This is also a read that Tammy and I agreed on as one of our "two good townreads" before I actually started reading through (the other being Not Chara), so my ISO of him ended up being more checking our assumptions and less talking about a read, but I can't see him ever flipping scum this game (would still like my posts asking him questions addressed, though). If someone needs me to sell this read instead of just rambling about it, just let me know.

[Almost50]

it really could just be a joke vote.

And this is why Town will always have a greater chance of losing. Every Town player will try to look for an out to Scum player with shitty moves, ranging from "too scummy to be scum" to "it could be/it might be/it's not necessarily so". I see a bad move and I call it. It a MUCH better reason to vote someone than "I can't read them" or "one head is scummy and the other is Townie".

Alright, I want you to lay your options (not necessarily in public. You can do it in a file for yourself) and see what case(s) are being put forward on each slot. Now try to decide which of them merits a vote ON YOU had you been doing that. Should people be voting you if you do nothing? Should they vote you because they can't read you? Should they vote you when you act disengaged and place votes as a joke? What?

[Almost50]

I wasn't exactly full of votes to where it would've mattered.

THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT. If I was scum and wanted you lynched I would NOT join your wagon late. Those who vote last are always the ones to receive the backlash of a mislynch. I would do it when I feel most secure that I'm not drawing much attention, and with a camouflage it's even a better way to jump on your wagon. If I ever get called on it afterwards I can always claim I was joking and I forgot I had put my vote on you in the first place.

[Almost50]

And why would I forget? Because it was a joke GDI. I wasn't serious, so it slipped my mind.

[Almost50]

If they got lynched and flipped scum, I'd consider it a lucky gamble over an obvious scum read.

This literally applies to each and every slot in the game as it is. We're on D1 and -unless someone is really bad- you're not going to get any closer to a "this is a confident scum read". I mean, look at the players list FGS. Does any of them (including Maria) look like the player to OBV!SCUM on D1?

[Almost50]

but do you see Maria and Clumsy as buddies?

Why would I even care? If Clumsy is lynchbait AS EITHER ALIGNMENT then all reads should be independent of the read on this slot. They look scummy regardless, and thus cannot be used for preflip association tells.

[Almost50]

Otherwise, who would be connected to them?

Why would I care NOW when I don't even know if the lynch is going through, let alone it's just a guess (although it IS my best guess)? I want to see her flip first and THEN I can decide what next.

Tywin (and everyone else): For all you know

I

could be scum with Maria. Maybe I saw that she cannot be lynched today so I decided to make this push on her and have everybody oppose me and then we end up lynching Clumsy anyway, but a distancing job would have been extremely well done and if either of us ever flipped later the other is practically confirmed a Townie because "there's NO WAY scum would push their p this hard when there was no need to bus". This IS how Town loses games.

If Maria flips Town (let's just assume this for the sake of argument) I'm the one most likely to be under fire for it. I will be grilled (if not targeted by almost all investigative roles). Now tell me this: Who would you grill, investigate or even mildly suspect if we lynch Clumsy and they flip Town? Who pushed that mislynch? NO ONE! Clumsy packs and leaves the game and we are back to square 1. If that's how you want to play it then a NO LYNCH is just as good IMHO. If we're not getting any associative tells either way and are counting on the night action then let's just NL and call it a day. I mean, what IS the point of the lynch on D1 if it doesn't provide us with anything?

[Alisae]

Eh.
This really isn't all that compelling for me; two good questions does not a townread make unless I'm missing something significant.

I'm sorta hoping I get to see more hunting like this from them.

[Socrates]

Kay, non-arbitrary sorting method that wasn't alphabetical was what I wanted to hear. Carry on.

especially when you I thought you already town-read them?

Also, where did we give the impression that we already townread Alisae?

Fuck, now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know. Maybe you had some interaction at some point that I misread or maybe I'm confusing something someone else said or maybe I just pulled it out of my ass.*

*Im not that old, relatively speaking, but I do have serious concerns about the quality of my memory for reasons that are beyond the scope of this game.

[Tywin Lannister]

I TR imperium after these latest posts. That's not coming from scum IMO, or at least, it's not a common scum approach to evaluate the game and explainin how they see it. Imperium even explained Alisae's read on me better than Alisae ever did. Anyways, they get removed from my D1 lynch pool, not that they were ever strongly in it anyways.

I'd like thoughts on Maria and Clumsy from everyone that hasn't given them yet, if possible. Since they're the leading wagons, I think it's a good idea to see why. I understand the Clumsy wagon, and I understand Almost's reasoning for the Maria wagon, but the rest I haven't seen/don't remember their reasoning. If Maria/Clumsy are going to be the two counter wagons, I think it needs to be looked at. I'm not against either since they're both either a slight SR or null. Clumsy's opener and their naked vote on me are all that I really remember from them, since that stood out as questionable and/or scummy. Maria I haven't seen much of anything aside their joke vote, switch to Desperado, a few posts about their scum meta, and some WIFOM thrown in. It's not a fleshed out read for either, although at the moment I'd be joining the Clumsy wagon if those remain my two choices.

[Vifam]

I hope you guys know I'm skimming through every wall I see and by skim I mean I look for my name

Just waiting for you to turn it on.
Is it true that you're just another member of the lurkmass now? Two separate people have said that your posting is essentially drifty nothingness now and that was never my impression of you before.

It turns off and on

[Vifam]

I just have a distaste for drawn out conversations that's all

[Vifam]

But I feel like I've always been this way