Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Vifam]

In everygame I've played with MariaR weather she was scum or town I've seen her get wagoned everytime, so I don't really agree with Almost's argument that she isn't lynchbait.


Im not sure about her alignment atm, she's null to me cuz I dont think I can read her very well tbh. The meta argument isn't very strong at all tho since Maria isn't that static of a player from what I've seen

[Vifam]

If you put a gun to my head Id say she's town here probably

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'd like thoughts on Maria and Clumsy from everyone that hasn't given them yet, if possible.

I agree.

[Tywin Lannister]

Kay, non-arbitrary sorting method that wasn't alphabetical was what I wanted to hear. Carry on.

especially when you I thought you already town-read them?

Also, where did we give the impression that we already townread Alisae?

Fuck, now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know. Maybe you had some interaction at some point that I misread or maybe I'm confusing something someone else said or maybe I just pulled it out of my ass.*

*Im not that old, relatively speaking, but I do have serious concerns about the quality of my memory for reasons that are beyond the scope of this game.

Too much weed my man. My entire high school years (and some college) are a blur.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Almost: I understand everything you're getting at, and I don't disagree, but what gives me pause is that you're building a narrative that has a possibility to go either way. Either it's true or it isn't, and most of it is based on WIFOM on what you or Maria would probably do if scum. While I don't SR you for this push, because you're not reckless as scum and already know you'd get backlash if wrong here, we're essentially playing with WIFOM arguments as to why Maria could be scum regardless of no real evidence. Yes, D1 is always a gamble (usually always a town mislynch too), but your argument doesn't have anything Maria can defend against. It's all speculation and narrative building. There's nothing to argue for or against it, and this argument can be said about everyone in the game currently. The Maria push is basically an RVS wagon in hopes that we randomly land on scum. The only thing to look for then is to see whose against it, look at whose in the counter wagon, and see if there's any scum buddies pushing the other way. I'm always wary of the easy wagon that too many people are eager to join on D1, since that usually means scum are on it, but the Maria case needs more IMO than a WIFOM narrative to be legitimate. If she flips town, what info is really gained from it? I don't see what we'd learn aside from two townies dead after the NK, and since the argument doesn't have much for Maria to discuss IMO, idk how it sorts her here.

I still want those on either wagon to give their reasons, those on neither to give their thoughts on the two wagons, and Maria/Clumsy to comment on the counter wagon. There's more to be said here than what's been going on, and since the focus is all over the place right now, I think it needs to be reigned in on the two vote leaders.

@everyone else: Ignore the rest of the cast for a post or two and give thoughts on the two current wagons. This needs to be addressed one way or the other before a lynch happens.

[Tywin Lannister]

I also think Clumsy is still a better bet based on some scummy posts, a bad vote with no reasoning behind it, and the general 'my meta is to be SR so I'm town guys' stance. I don't like it, and the whole 'clumsy is lynchbait' argument also seems to be a hard push elsewhere. IF clumsy is scum, it could mean Almost is too, since he put the possibility out there that Clumsy, if scum, will be lynched in a day or two anyways. If that's the case, then why not now? What exactly makes Maria a better bet? I just don't see it. If it's all based on WIFOM or narrative building, than Clumsy is exactly the same gamble as Maria, but with a few scummy posts to add to the mix. Clumsy even admitted to being afraid to vote or take a stance due to being SR for it, but that's a weird stance to take as town. I stick my neck out constantly when town, because what do I care if I get lynched? If I think someone's scum, I go after them and see what happens. I don't worry about what others will think. The only time I care is when I'm scum or third party, because my chance of winning goes down drastically when I'm lynched as scum, and I lose right out when lynched as third party.

Idk, I just still feel like there's more there to gamble on Clumsy than there is on Maria. I'd need more than what Almost has offered to switch my stance here. At the end of the day, I have to go with my reads over an unconfirmed player's, regardless of them being a TR.

[Clumsy Phoenix]

Shaz, have you guys rolled scum as your hydra before?

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66931

[Clumsy Phoenix]

Tywin, you realize I never insisted we were town because we always get scumread, I literally just said that when I post without running it by Clumsy, we get scumread, and then when Clumsy posts we get townread right? It was a statement of fact (which has been proven in games before this but also here) and you've latched onto it and are claiming it is some kind of preemptive excuse, but i don't believe either head has actually tried to use it as one.

If you don't care about being mislynched as town, then you are not helping town as much as you can be. Towns job is to catch scum and not get mislynched in order to make sure scum get lynched instead.

Honestly, I think you realize that Almost is right, we will prove we are town as time goes on, and you don't want to miss out on a quick and easy mislynch.

[Desperado]

shaz what is it about being a hydra that makes you look so scummy?

this attitude was nonexistent in witch trials

[Not Chara]

Clumsy, could you please eventually get to answering me about your initial vote on me? the one where you said both of your heads liked Socrates case. i want to know what about it you liked, why you agreed with the tell, etc.

[Tywin Lannister]

Clumsy: you think I realize Almost is right, so I am pushing you for an easy mislynch? So what you're saying is that Maria is my scum buddy, right? You'd have to think that for scum me to push you over Maria, because Maria being pushed by Almost would be far easier to sheep. Therefore, you must SR both me and Maria to take the stance you just did. Am I right here?

Okay, then assuming that, what exactly is Almost right about that you agree with? What exactly about Maria do you SR, and why aren't you voting that slot?

[Tywin Lannister]

The general careful/cautious play is what I SR more than anything Clumsy, and it doesn't matter if you've used meta as an excuse for when you're SR. The excuse part is a side note, so I can drop that and I still see your play as too careful for town. The opener read as if you were more worried about appearances than anything else, and later posts pretty much confirmed that. You even admitted it when questioned. That's what bothers me. Not wanting to be lynched is one thing, but playing the game with the only real goal being to not be lynched doesn't look right. You haven't played (in my opinion) like you've been looking for scum, but rather just being worried about getting SR yourself. It goes against town's win con to play that way, and regardless, if town, you could be NK'd at any time. So knowing that, why worry about being SR over finding scum? It looks to me like you're not worried about finding them, not to mention you seem to not think you'd be NK'd at all. It just doesn't look like a townie mindset. It's too careful and self conscious IMO. It pings me pretty hard, especially when you guys are new. If you were, I'd write it off as inexperience, but I can't do that with you both. Yes, clumsy looks more town and you look more scummy, but I can't seperate the two of you since you're a hydra, so I am going with the overall content put together. It just looks off.

Do I agree that you could be an easy mislynch if town? Yes, I do. It seems too easy. That being said, Maria is being pushed hard over a meta gut read, so there is a counter wagon in play, and you've been given the 'lynchbait' hand wave to take focus away. So it's not white and black here. There are reasons to believe you could be scum that ohviously scum don't want lynched, at least not D1. What gives me pause with that thinking is that Almost is a good scum player, so if you flipped scum and Maria flipped town, he has to know that he'd get all the flak and attention for it.

[Clumsy Phoenix]

Desperado: I know you addressed that to Shaz, but he's out for food right now. I have a little time before a get together tonight. I have no idea why this hydra gets scum read much easier than playing solo. I wish I knew. But if you like to compare it to past games, like you are with Witch Trials, you should compare it to games where we've hydra'd and this EXACT thing happens. I don't know why it happens, but it does.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66850
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=68883
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=70078

Scum like to tell townies not to use unique game mechanics, thinking that they will look protown by advocating caution, but really all they do is betray their own greed.

You didn't actively call it scummy to collect dragon balls, so it's not the full tell, but this is a good starting place.

VOTE: not chara

I said it first, so why NC and not me?

Well no, nc said they were going to actively sabotage collecting dragons balls on the first page.

Two, your suggestion did earn a squint from me. Maybe you failed to notice. But my feelings on you re:Tywin mirror Nacho's, whereas NC only has this.

I find annoying that people think about the mechanics only in terms of how they can be used directly, not in terms of how they can be a vector for scumhunting. Scum can do a lot, but they can do very little without leaving a paper trail if we approach it correctly. I will have more to say on this day 2.

I need to learn how to read. Give me a second.
/me takes a second.
Kay heres the thing. I don't think scum!NC gets anything out of writing that post. Granted town!NC gets nothing out of it either. Like that post seems really NAI to me. Especially considering it's page 1, we're still in RVS, so I don't really see how they're trying to prevent scumhunting from happening on page 1?
I feel like if anything scum are most likely to jump on that post rather then town.

You'll note that I didn't immediately jump on her, but asked her to elaborate. If she said it was just a first page joke, I would have shrugged and let it go, but she didn't and went with the classic "scum can manipulate this mechanic so we shouldn't use it" argument that scum themselves love to make. They love to make the same argument about masslcaims and such, too.

As I said, it wasnt the full tell, because they didn't check the final checkbox of calling it outright scummy, but I feel better about this vote than anywhere else at this moment.

I've caught scum this way before.

When I was reading through this, I was having a lot of the same thoughts, especially the "If she said it was just a first page joke, I would have shrugged and let it go". I don't know a whole lot about tells in this game, but Socrates has been playing for much longer than I have, and I town read him, so I'm taking his word on that tell. It makes sense to me, and this actually reminded me of a scum game I played in. RC had a role which let other people give him their votes, and I joked that we should all just give him our votes and let him try to win the game. I was immediately jumped on because it came out insinuating that I knew he was town. Now, I would have made the same joke either way as town or scum, but since I WAS scum, I had to keep up appearances. So I buckled down on it and argued for Town!RC. This felt similar to that, buckling down when under pressure early.

Basically, if Socrates is town (Which I believe he is), he wouldn't lie about the tell. The push felt very town to me, particularly outright saying that it didn't fit the full tell all the way. I didn't have super strong reads at that point, so I was fine with going along with a town read. Does that all make sense?

[Tywin Lannister]

EBWOP: '*Aren't* new' not 'especially when you guys are new'

[Tywin Lannister]

Clumsy, what's your opinion on Maria and those currently pushing it?

[Socrates]

Shaz, have you guys rolled scum as your hydra before?

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66931

Dammit. I was expecting you to say no and this was informing my read of you. Now I have to read this and re-evaluate my entire read on your slot.

Not going to on my phone. But later!

[Clumsy Phoenix]

Shazhead is back, the party can begin again folks!

Clumsy: you think I realize Almost is right, so I am pushing you for an easy mislynch? So what you're saying is that Maria is my scum buddy, right? You'd have to think that for scum me to push you over Maria, because Maria being pushed by Almost would be far easier to sheep. Therefore, you must SR both me and Maria to take the stance you just did. Am I right here?

Okay, then assuming that, what exactly is Almost right about that you agree with? What exactly about Maria do you SR, and why aren't you voting that slot?

How in the metric fuck do you get "Maria is necessarily your scumbuddy" from "I think you're scum pushing us for the easy mislynch"? I don't think Maria is easier to push, and I don't see why you do. This is a great job of assuming my position and then demanding I defend it despite it not being my position, though, which is an excellent way for Scum to try and trap town into looking like scum so they can excuse their pushing the mislynch later with "oh but they talked all scummy when I questioned them they're just bad".

The general careful/cautious play is what I SR more than anything Clumsy, and it doesn't matter if you've used meta as an excuse for when you're SR. The excuse part is a side note, so I can drop that and I still see your play as too careful for town. The opener read as if you were more worried about appearances than anything else, and later posts pretty much confirmed that. You even admitted it when questioned. That's what bothers me. Not wanting to be lynched is one thing, but playing the game with the only real goal being to not be lynched doesn't look right. You haven't played (in my opinion) like you've been looking for scum, but rather just being worried about getting SR yourself. It goes against town's win con to play that way, and regardless, if town, you could be NK'd at any time. So knowing that, why worry about being SR over finding scum? It looks to me like you're not worried about finding them, not to mention you seem to not think you'd be NK'd at all. It just doesn't look like a townie mindset. It's too careful and self conscious IMO. It pings me pretty hard, especially when you guys are new. If you were, I'd write it off as inexperience, but I can't do that with you both. Yes, clumsy looks more town and you look more scummy, but I can't seperate the two of you since you're a hydra, so I am going with the overall content put together. It just looks off.

Do I agree that you could be an easy mislynch if town? Yes, I do. It seems too easy. That being said, Maria is being pushed hard over a meta gut read, so there is a counter wagon in play, and you've been given the 'lynchbait' hand wave to take focus away. So it's not white and black here. There are reasons to believe you could be scum that ohviously scum don't want lynched, at least not D1. What gives me pause with that thinking is that Almost is a good scum player, so if you flipped scum and Maria flipped town, he has to know that he'd get all the flak and attention for it.

I read through that whole wall and my eyes only glazed over once or twice! You've made a few shit assumptions here, and I'm assuming that's because you're scum trying to push a narrative. The risk of being NKed does not equate to not being worried about being a mislynch. Town has control over the lynches. If we mislynch, we've wasted a lynch, we've wasted a chance to kill scum. The NK will never kill scum. Therefore, all town should be concerned about being a mislynch. The only time town should be okay with being lynched is if they know that them getting lynched will give town the information needed to then proceed to lynch scum, because a 1 to 1 trade of town to scum is necessarily good for town. Us dying won't accomplish that, we'll just flip town and people will scratch their heads and move on. So, considering this, and my -knowing for a fact- that when I post without my Clumsy filter in this hydra, for some reason people always scumread it, yeah I'm pretty damn cautious when I post alone. Even if you throw out, however, the fact that I know if I post alone I will likely get us scumread, I am -still- cautious about what I post because I know that if we do get scumread for what I say and we do get mislynched, it's bad for town.

[Socrates]

Clumsy, I didn't mention this at the time because I wanted to see more of your posting first, but I found it highly amusing that you, of all the players in this game, singled me out as an outsider and asked me about my familiarity with everyone, because the one bit of meta information that I DID carry into this game is that I know you to have used the 'I Suck' defense before as scum.

It got linked to me in an argument about Appeals to Emotions.

What you guys are doing here isn't exactly the same, but it wouldn't be. That would be silly.

Now that I'm at a computer, I'm going to actually read that link you provided.

[Socrates]

Gods, yet another game that starts off with a massclaim proposal being shutdown by "it only helps the scum!" and "mod wouldn't be that dumb."

Kids these days. Not even familiar with the arguments for early massclaim.

[MariaR]

I'm starting to wonder if Clum hydra is town I don't like how the 2 wagon choices have suddenly merged to me/clum hydra I feel like that means scum are content with the wagon choices because no other wagons are starting and no one of 2 wagons are getting majorly pushed it makes me think scum like the game state as is and we should be looking elsewhere I'm starting to get a few more townreads I'm gonna look at my list and cast a vote tell me your thoughts on this

[MariaR]

VOTE: Majiffy
I think this could be a really good starting point I feel like his vote on Almost was really meh and lackluster this zefiend Desperado are where I'm looking at vote wise in that order

[MariaR]

I've wanted to go on a self meta rage but withdrawing from that if you got questions for me shoot or just vote if you're gonna.

[Albert B. Rampage]

VOTE: Majiffy
I think this could be a really good starting point I feel like his vote on Almost was really meh and lackluster this zefiend Desperado are where I'm looking at vote wise in that order

This is such a scummy vote. Majiffy is town.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Majiffy, a50, Tywin, town town town.

[MariaR]

VOTE: Majiffy
I think this could be a really good starting point I feel like his vote on Almost was really meh and lackluster this zefiend Desperado are where I'm looking at vote wise in that order

This is such a scummy vote. Majiffy is town.

Good to know don't care I disagree your other 2 tr's are right though.