Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[KuroiXHF]

Mod Note: We are clarifying and adding to the mechanics that information on a dead player's dragonballs will not be revealed.

[Majiffy]

If someone needs me to sell this read instead of just rambling about it, just let me know.

Yeah I'm still unconvinced and I think you went into the ISO looking to prove your read to yourself.

[Majiffy]

Also when are you gonna ISO me lets have fun Nacho

[ɀefiend]

Jesus Christ this game is moving a little too fast for me at the moment. I only skimmed but what I saw was pretty disheartening. The Majiffy wagon dissolved for seemingly no reason, and the lynchbait wagon sprang up again. Consider this a prodge but I WILL get to this tomorrow.

[Tywin Lannister]

Oh I still want Majiffy to hang, but nobody else does. That's probably a good thing, since there's too much coalesced pushback for something that is supposedly town. Scum would e let Majiff hang, but it wasn't to be.

Zefiend, if you want the wagon to work, you'll have to push it. I got discredited and ignored too much for it to work coming from me. The problem Clumsy has is IF they're town, they'd be smart enough to help push one of the Majiff/Maria wagons, but they refused. They instead SR me, which is pretty stupid in the scheme of things. They don't need to know I'm town to know my wagon wouldn't get enough support, so they're still the main wagon here. You'd think they'd push someone else with votes. Maria did after not liking Clumsy's wagon, but why didn't Clumsy move to Maria or Majiff? Since I'm not scum, then what are they doing exactly? They haven't even tried forming a counter wagon.

[Tywin Lannister]

Like Clumsy is all about talking in circles with how town they are for being cautious and not wanting to get lynched, but if they were town, their sole goal should be to get someone other than them lynched. The only confirmed player each townie has is themselves. So why hasn't Clumsy pushed to form a counter wagon? Stuff like that doesn't make any sense to me.

[Tywin Lannister]

You're still more worried about being SR than finding scum, and the only real SR you have apparently is me, because I'm questioning you. Or am I wrong?

We've given reasons for scum reading you, and it's not because you're questioning us. This is a great way of setting up being able to wash your hands of this lynch after it flips town.


P-edit: Shaz, I linked him our only scum game together, that's what he's referring to.

I'm not washing my hands at all. I've made it pretty clear that I prefer you over Maria, which should show that if you flipped town and Maria flipped scum, id look pretty damn bad. My hands are pretty much all over your lynch, if it happens, but me trying to decide if you'll flip scum or not doesn't mean I'm setting up future excuses. That's your game, not mine. Frankly, if I was scum, I'd let you hang yourself without commenting. As it stands now, if you do flip scum and I wasn't on the wagon, I could be accused of coaching. If you flip town and Maria flips scum, I can be accused of being her buddy. If you both flip scum, well that's game over anyway. If both are town, then I could be accused of buddying one townie while pushing another.

See how this all works? Now explain why I'd question either of you rather than just vote and let you continue to be SR without my input? Your lone read seems to be me, but since I know I'm town, my flip will then make you have absolutely zero reads. Is that correct? So you've done nothing to help town when you can't find any SRs being a lone townie. That's not something to be proud of post game, so when will you give other reads? If I'm scum, what have you done to push my wagon? If I'm scum, who are my scum buddies? Whose connected with me and why?

Think about it and let me know. Cuz as it stands now, you're just floating my name out there without any real belief in your SR, no push for me to be lynched, no actual sorting beyond just claiming I'm scum as if that makes it true, random WIFOM as your reasoning, no seperate reads, no follow up reads to find my supposed scum buddies, and basically just a lot of 'you're scum setting me up!' talk. I'm not scum and not setting you up, but I am putting my thoughts out there, and they are that you're playing too damn oddly to be town.

Here's a question for you: If I got lynched today and flipped town, what would you do? You would have zero reads since the only one you gave was a townie. Now what? Who do you SR then?

[Tywin Lannister]

My TRs (in no particular order): Imperium, Not Chara, Tywin, ɀefiend, ABR
My Town LEANS: Alisae, Desperado, Vifam
Null (and a pain in the back, so I might eventually sheep ABR on this one): Majiffy
Scum lean: Socrates (PoE actually)
Scum: Maria, Clumsy

Now clearly if I'm wrong about someone above the null then Socrates is the likely slot to move up instead. I feel confident about my TRs though, so will only consider reevaluating my Town leans and with GOOD cause only.

I agree with this list almost completely, aside from having Majiff and Ali in my scum lean/pool and Maria as more null/town lean. I flip flop on Ali a lot in this game, but I still highly question the hard Majiff defense so scum lean.

The thing Maria brought up and Clumsy sort of clumsily (pun intended) agreed with was that it's so rare to find two scum on D1 that it makes me question the whole thing. Legitimately, I could say the players I'm most paranoid over are Clumsy, Alisae, and Majiff, but I can ALSO see a possibility where we are getting played by a mixture of Not Chara, Zefiend, ABR, and Imperium. Desperado also looks too 'in the background' for my taste, because I don't remember them doing anything, and Socrates changed my opinion so I no longer have a gut SR there. Vifam looks like his usual 'idgaf' town self.

So there's three camps here as I see it. Either one or more of Clumsy, Ali, Majiff, Maria are scum, or we are getting played by the other 'on the sidelines' camp in Vifam, Desperado, Socrates, Imperium, Not Chara or we are getting played by the Almost, ABR camp.

The Almost/ABR camp looks town to me. It's too forceful with its pushes, and frankly, I'm probably a part of that camp anyways right now. For my own sake, I want to believe they're town for now. So that leaves the Majiff/Clumsy/Ali/Maria camp who have all the flak and votes, and then we have the sideline sitters who don't hard push wagons but vote them in Desperado, Socrates, Not Chara, Vifam, Zefiend, etc.

Obviously scum aren't perfectly aligned with these camps, but that's the player base as I see it. My worry is that the scum could be in the 'sit on sidelines' camp of players who haven't gotten any shit from anyone. Maria used to be part of that camp until Almost changed that, but this is my point. Nobody has really pushed the sideline camp players, and none of them have stuck their necks out to push the other camps. If Clumsy/Maria aren't scum, then we're barking up the wrong tree/camp.

I'm being paranoid here, but I honestly can see either/or with Clumsy/Maria. I just see more to SR in Clumsy's slot than Maria's, and Majiff won't be pushed. That's probably because Clumsy is scum though. Clumsy not pushing anyone just looks f'ing weird to me. A townie about to be lgnched should be pushing anyone they can that isn't them, because one is a for sure mislynch and the others are a chance of scum. Clumsy hasn't really done that though, and not taking the Majiff bait is weird. Really weird.

IMO, if clumsy flips scum, Majiff and Maria look real bad. One of them are then scum too, but not both. I'd go for Majiffy, and if he flipped scum, I'd then go for Alisae.

If Clumsy doesn't flip scum, then maybe we are looking at the wrong camp of players.


I know this post (and all my posts) are wordy in general, but I play using my phone so editing it doesn't work. So you get my rough drafts as the final version.

[Alisae]

Tywin.
Put yourself in a magical world.
Where Majiffy is town.
What's your read on me?

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin.
Put yourself in a magical world.
Where Majiffy is town.
What's your read on me?

I still question the hard defense/buddying, but you'd not be a top SR. Id probably look elsewhere unless there was more to go on. Your read is based on the hard buddying than actual scummy posting. It's not necessarily exclusive with Majiff's flip, since scum would buddy a townie just as much as they'd want to prevent a scum lynch.

[Clumsy Phoenix]

Like Clumsy is all about talking in circles with how town they are for being cautious and not wanting to get lynched, but if they were town, their sole goal should be to get someone other than them lynched. The only confirmed player each townie has is themselves. So why hasn't Clumsy pushed to form a counter wagon? Stuff like that doesn't make any sense to me.

No, our sole goal should be to get scum lynched once we find 'em. We'd found 'em, it's you, we're pushing on you. You're doing it again.

Holy fuck, we've been talking about reads on: Zefiend, Socrates, MariaR, ABR
Mind you, those are just the ones that come to mind immediately. So your "you are just floating my name and have no seperate reads" is pretty blatant bullshit. You are sitting there lying your ass off about what is happening in the hopes that when we flip town (which you know we will), you'll be able to say "Oh but see just like I said, this and this!" and hope people don't realize that it's a blatant and obvious lie. We aren't "just claiming you're scum as if that makes it true", we have said -many- times now our reasons for believing you to be scum. You keep pretending we haven't because you're really hoping to convince people that we haven't, but literally looking at our ISO shows many times we've said "No, this is why we are scumreading you". We aren't talking in circles, we're talking incredibly directly and you are handwaving everything we say and returning to the same thing you just said. -You- are talking in circles.

But you are arguing that there's no way you'd get away with mislynching us. All the while making sure to try and bullshit your way to getting away with mislynching us.

If you flipped town, we'd look at the other people on your wagon and their reason for changing to a scumread on you. We'd probably want to look more into Zefiend, because as I've said he's a townlean but his current behavior isn't helping that stay up. Not sure what clumsy would do.

-Shaziro

[Desperado]

Desperado also looks too 'in the background' for my taste, because I don't remember them doing anything, and Socrates changed my opinion so I no longer have a gut SR there. Vifam looks like his usual 'idgaf' town self.

Obviously scum aren't perfectly aligned with these camps, but that's the player base as I see it. My worry is that the scum could be in the 'sit on sidelines' camp of players who haven't gotten any shit from anyone. Maria used to be part of that camp until Almost changed that, but this is my point. Nobody has really pushed the sideline camp players, and none of them have stuck their necks out to push the other camps. If Clumsy/Maria aren't scum, then we're barking up the wrong tree/camp.

maria is just as much my wagon as it is almost's so if someone, ANYONE, who keeps harping on me "sidelining" this game could fucking explain that it'd be great

otherwise...stop saying it

[Desperado]

like there isn't a single thing any of you, ali, or clumsyhydra can point to that i haven't addressed

we literally had a several post back and forth and then a day later you couldn't remember who i am or anything i'd said

that isn't my problem

[Socrates]

Okay maybe ABR flipped scum lol no it is so RARE you ever wagon 2 scum in a row let alone 1 on day 1 the fact everyone is okay with both these wagons should be red flag city showing scum are okay with this like this is mafia 101

Funny, Day 1 of the scumgame that Clumsy linked me to consisted entirely of jockeying back and forth between two players the entire day with not even the slightest hint of a wagon forming on anyone else, with one person going "I don't like these two wagons and think scum are lurking on the wagons".
That person was scum. One of those two people being wagoned were scum (Clumsy Phoenix themselves).

I note also that this game serves as minor evidence that their "always scumread" thing is not entirely alignment indicative. They aren't like Maria is basically claiming to be -- only ever scumread as town -- and they are certainly self-aware enough to use this shield AS scum. I haven't finished reading the game yet to my satisfaction, though, and then I still need to take a look at some of their town games.

Tywin makes it real easy for his rhetorical opponents because of how excitable he is, how reductive he seems to get about his opponent's arguments once he scumreads them, and the sheer volume of words he puts out making it easy to find holes.

This, in turn, is making it hard for me to tell if CP has stepped up their game or if they just found an easy person to argue with.

Imperium, I would actually like to hear your hard sell on why Tywin is town, if you don't mind.

In the meantime, I'm moving back.

VOTE: Maria

[Socrates]

Also, Tywin isn't reading my posts anymore than I am reading his if he thinks Almost was the first person to give Maria heat.

[Socrates]

CP, entertain a seemingly random question: are there any reads that you guys

disagree

about?

I wouldn't mind if Imperium answered this question as well.

[Clumsy Phoenix]

CP, entertain a seemingly random question: are there any reads that you guys

disagree

about?

I wouldn't mind if Imperium answered this question as well.

Not at the moment to the best of my knowledge, but I'll get with clumsy head as soon as I can and discuss this. We are usually pretty good about avoiding hydra dissonance. For a time previously in this game, my read on MariaR earlier based on their behavior vs Clumsy saying that was actually most likely either NAI or towny.

-Shaziro

[Socrates]

By the way, unless there is some kind of meta-history of Nacho mis-reading Majif, Scum!Majif would only want to directly play chicken with him if they were scumbuddies.

[Socrates]

CP, entertain a seemingly random question: are there any reads that you guys

disagree

about?

I wouldn't mind if Imperium answered this question as well.

Not at the moment to the best of my knowledge, but I'll get with clumsy head as soon as I can and discuss this. We are usually pretty good about avoiding hydra dissonance. For a time previously in this game, my read on MariaR earlier based on their behavior vs Clumsy saying that was actually most likely either NAI or towny.

-Shaziro

Before talking to Clumsy, what is your riskiest read? Do you have any reads that you would consider 'risky'?

[Almost50]

Funny, Day 1 of the scumgame that Clumsy linked me to consisted entirely of jockeying back and forth between two players the entire day with not even the slightest hint of a wagon forming on anyone else, with one person going "I don't like these two wagons and think scum are lurking on the wagons".
That person was scum. One of those two people being wagoned were scum (Clumsy Phoenix themselves).
:
<clipped out for convenience>
:
VOTE: Maria

Hold on a second! So you saw the game had similarities with the situation here, and Clumsy was in a similar position to the one in here, and they were scum there, so you leave the 5 person wagon on them and join the wagon that had just dissipated on Maria??

Explain this to me like I'm 4 not 5. Because I would have stayed on the larger wagon of the two if I thought both Clumsy and Maria are scum (which I do).

What you just did is a classic SCUM move. It only leaves me wondering if Clumsy is your Scum p and you want the wagon on them to go away, or if they're Town and you want to not appear on the wagon now that it looks likely to go all the way.

What does everybody think of this??

[Socrates]

Funny, Day 1 of the scumgame that Clumsy linked me to consisted entirely of jockeying back and forth between two players the entire day with not even the slightest hint of a wagon forming on anyone else, with one person going "I don't like these two wagons and think scum are lurking on the wagons".
That person was scum. One of those two people being wagoned were scum (Clumsy Phoenix themselves).
:
<clipped out for convenience>
:
VOTE: Maria

Hold on a second! So you saw the game had similarities with the situation here, and Clumsy was in a similar position to the one in here, and they were scum there, so you leave the 5 person wagon on them and join the wagon that had just dissipated on Maria??

Explain this to me like I'm 4 not 5. Because I would have stayed on the larger wagon of the two if I thought both Clumsy and Maria are scum (which I do).

What you just did is a classic SCUM move. It only leaves me wondering if Clumsy is your Scum p and you want the wagon on them to go away, or if they're Town and you want to not appear on the wagon now that it looks likely to go all the way.

What does everybody think of this??

The similarities were only surface level, but there were key differences in circumstances that I did not want to get into too deeply since I have not finished reading what I want to read.

For one, CP lurked their asses off when placed in those competing wagons and let their belligerent counterpart dig their own grave, which they have not done here. but I need to see how day 2 went (where they got lynched) before I can judge how this might have informed their play going forward.

The scum profile I imagined for them also isn't panning out in general, so I'm moving my vote off of an L-2 until I Find footing with them again.

I can see where you're coming from, but I, as town, am not going to leave my vote somewhere I am uncomfortable.

I was also curious if people would follow me back onto Maria, myself.

[Socrates]

i also hope you would recognize what I'm trying to do in my last few interactions with him.

[Almost50]

I don't, but I'm willing to wait and see it's fruition.

[Tywin Lannister]

Also, Tywin isn't reading my posts anymore than I am reading his if he thinks Almost was the first person to give Maria heat.

Almost hard pushed the slot. Giving heat isn't the same thing.

[Tywin Lannister]

Funny, Day 1 of the scumgame that Clumsy linked me to consisted entirely of jockeying back and forth between two players the entire day with not even the slightest hint of a wagon forming on anyone else, with one person going "I don't like these two wagons and think scum are lurking on the wagons".
That person was scum. One of those two people being wagoned were scum (Clumsy Phoenix themselves).
:
<clipped out for convenience>
:
VOTE: Maria

Hold on a second! So you saw the game had similarities with the situation here, and Clumsy was in a similar position to the one in here, and they were scum there, so you leave the 5 person wagon on them and join the wagon that had just dissipated on Maria??


Explain this to me like I'm 4 not 5. Because I would have stayed on the larger wagon of the two if I thought both Clumsy and Maria are scum (which I do).

What you just did is a classic SCUM move. It only leaves me wondering if Clumsy is your Scum p and you want the wagon on them to go away, or if they're Town and you want to not appear on the wagon now that it looks likely to go all the way.

What does everybody think of this??

This is exactly what I thought and was about to ask. Socrates went on and on about how Clumsy was scum in the other game and how similar it is here, but then votes Maria?

VOTE: Clumsy. Let's find out. If clumsy flips scum, this game will be very, very easy.