Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Not Chara]

i could lynch any of Clumsy, Maria, zefiend, and Alisae.
who is townreading these players and why?

zefs response to me calling out his "pings" seemed town even if I had to prod him to get those thoughts

what about it was town? like, why did it appear genuine instead of something fakeable?

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm been lynched as town more times than I can count and I've never been lynched day 1 as scum and I am really trying to understand what I do as scum that makes me immune but as town I'm in ml city
Pedit: Hi hydra thing what's your read on me

Nacho, thoughts on this post please? ^

I'll give mine.

Maria: this should be obvious, but here's the reason: when scum, you're scumbuddies aren't going to start a wagon on you D1. It just won't happen. They'll shade and push others, and town's attention and vote patterns are always fickle af, especially D1. Scum almost never get lgnched this early, because scum aren't pushing each other and town don't usually listen to other townies who give cases. Overall, the game of Mafia is a mob mentality experiment, and what it's always shown is that the mob is stupid as a whole. It's only when most town are gone that town get their shit together and pay attention to everything and everyone.

On the contrary though, when town, scum can and will push wagons on you, and as mentioned before, most town are fickle and don't care about facts as long as a good story is presented, fake or not. Case in point: Majiff was proven to be lying on many of his points against me, but nobody paid attention or cared. They ignored it when I literally gave the exact posts that showed he lied, and then he'd repeat the lies and people like Clumsy/Alisae would agree with it. People like NC or Socrates would just say they didn't read it at all.

So yeah, it's entirely possible for you to always be lynched as town D1 and never be lynched as scum this early. This is another reason I dislike your wagon, and why I slowed down Clumsy's after the claim. WAY TOO MANY people are more than willing to lynch Maria for me to be comfortable with this. Scum won't bus their buddies on D1, and since I'm not scum, whose that really leave off of Maria? Whose left? I don't think she'll flip scum because it's too easy and full of people I SR mixed with those I don't.

What I don't like about Maria however is when she voted Majiff over Clumsy, because she TR clum, but when clumsy claimed, she said 'but fake claims!!!' That's a huge flip flop on a TR. That could mean scum.

So my thought is that if Maria flips scum, town has to lynch anyone that was really against the wagon. That's me and who else? I'm not worried about myself here if it catches scum. What I am worried about is if Maria is a scum driven wagon. Too many nulls or scum reads/leans are on it. Socrates switching to Maria after a long post about Clum. Majiff moving to Maria at the last second (scum slot of the wagon FYI), etc.

Maria looks town to me and always has. The case on her is bad. It's entirely either a sheep of Almost's meta read or naked votes from players like Socrates, or people pointing out small contradictions that many town do when not playing careful (as town usually shouldn't anyways). This counter wagon to clumsy looks bad to me.

Regardless, Ali/zef/etc need to weigh in. You know my stance on it. Again, TOO MANY people are too eager to lynch Maria for there not to be scum on her IMO. Otherwise, the next lynches (if she flips scum) need to be everyone that was against it. That includes me and a small minority of players apparently.

[Tywin Lannister]

Do Zef/Ali need a prod? Zef claimed to come back and give a big case on Majiff, but never did. He hadn't weighed in on Maria at all. He did mention he disliked clum since he thought they were townie lynchbait.

I don't remember alisae's stance on either clumsy or Maria. Clumsy could've been hammered and neither of those two were here. For that matter, it's why I mentioned Majiff too. Before Almodt unvoted Clum and a few people switched to Maria, Majiff was MIA as well. Clum could've been hammered and no info gained from that slot.

So now that Majiff's here and gave his stance on Maria with a vote, Ali/Zef are the two left I think.

Vifam: do you like/dislike the Maria wagon and why?

[Alisae]

No I'm here Tywin talk to me about things.

[Alisae]

Zef is always this lurky lurky.

[Desperado]

what about it was town? like, why did it appear genuine instead of something fakeable?

i've seen zef scum and town recently and it felt town

there isn't any more depth to it than that

[ɀefiend]

All caught up now. If I get prodded again, I promise to replace out.

I don't agree with the Clumsy lynch. I've said from the start that it seemed like low-hanging fruit, and Tywin made a great point about the lack of formation of a counter-wagon. I don't think the Maria wagon qualifies because of the nature of its formation. A few people independently making points about self-meta, scum-meta, and her generally bad posting from this game. It wasn't a fast pile-up. Also, of the "side-liners" consisting of {Me, Desperado, and Vifam} none of us came in and jumped onto any wagon. If anything, I think that that says that between Maria/Clumsy, Maria is more likely to be scum.

The problem of course, is that Majiffy just voted Maria. A lot has transpired since the Tywin v. Majiffy fight and a couple vets have given their input. ABR thinks its an ego clash, while Almost thinks that Majiffy was just exaggerating truths. I still am heavily on Tywin's side in the argument, but in light of everything that's happened since, I've softened my suspicions on Majiffy. Originally I thought that he has OMGUS'ing hard with very bad logic and shade. Now I can buy the reasoning that Majiffy is just an over-explosive defensive player. I thought that Tywin completely dismantled Majiffy's arguments in #679 and there wasn't a whole lot more for me to add. Unfortunately at the time, nobody else was taking Tywin's side and the Majiffy wagon crumbled. I'm still trying to figure out why. If Majiffy is scum, then his partners were hoping to ride out the 1v1 without needing to bus. If Majiffy is town, then scum were looking for a way to insert themselves on the wagon carefully, and never found a good opportunity. As to those shading me about lack of input (@Not Chara @Clumsy) I'll remind you that I was the first person to actually make an independent case-point on Majiffy

and

I actually took a stance on the 1v1 instead of just saying something to the effect of "meh, looks TvT," despite there being a mountain of content to sort through.

@Desperado, what do you think about the ABR-Maria dynamic? You found ABR scummy, Maria was sheeping ABR, then you had a squab with Maria, now ABR is fine with lynching Maria. Surely you have an opinion on all this?

@Imperium,

If it were anyone else then I'd probably be right by your side lynching Majiffy but unfortunately it's not and Majiffy is prone to exaggeration and exaggeration and more exaggeration.

Why is exaggeration an excuse for bad pushes?

If you ARE town then my suggestion is to stop worrying about what others think and worry about finding scum. This 'I'm always SR, poor me' approach sucks, and Socrates says you've used it as scum before. Since there's a precedent, idk why you think I (or anyone else) should just take your word for it here. It's contradictory to your own meta. So how can you use meta as an excuse for looking scummy when you've literally used that excuse as scum before? It invalidates the entire meta argument from the start, and so your posts (shaz side) look way worse in that light.

Maria: why didn't you vote Majiff before you became a wagon if you SR him previously?

ABR: I want Clumsy over Maria at the moment. I wanted Majiff but that's not happening, so I'm compromising to the other leading wagons, and I think Clumsy is a far better bet. Maria just doesn't have much for me to legitimately SR them for, and I don't like voting someone without that.

I've never played with Socrates before so that's a lie. and it's not meta it's a fact I've never been lynched d1 as scum and I've been lynched as town/vigged n1 more times then I can count.

I only started sring Majiff after his almost 50 vote.

Plus I still thought clum could be scum but the way this game is going I'm iffy

I'm surprised no one else has pointed this out. Maria can't be talking about Majiffy's first vote in #129 since she says in #187 that she doesn't have any reads. Then she had the weird sheep vote in #316, the OMGUS in #538, the Shaziro scumread in #740, the naked Tywin vote in #753, back to Desperado in #783 (explained in #792 as per

his

weird vote), and then gives a few town reads in #824.

Majiffy puts his vote back on Almost in #829, for seemingly the same reasons as he did in #129 (since no progression has happened in that read -- at least none that he's explained). Maria says she doesn't SR Almost in #830, but

doesn't mention that she finds Majiffy's vote bad or scummy

. Majiffy links her to his original naked vote in #129. ABR questions Maria's genuineness of a "thank you" when Maria admits she hasn't read the link. Then finally in #946, Maria lays her vote down on Majiffy, for a vote with equivalence to a vote made in post #129.

The timing is important here. In my opinion, this proves that Maria's motivations for voting are not genuine. Majiffy's Almost vote existed since near the start of the game, and he only returned to it after his 1v1 with Tywin dissipated. Maria claims that she only started scumreading Majiffy after his Almost vote, but she made 16 posts between that post and her vote for Majiffy.

Maria got some pressure from ABR and Almost but the Clumsy train took over again. Well, it's time to derail that and lynch scum. VOTE: Maria

[ɀefiend]

Also,

Almost 50 is obv town but is just really really bad

This is blatant appeasement. "You're town, please stop being bad and scumreading me!!"

[Not Chara]

zefiend: you realize i was the first player to give a reason to scumread Majiffy, right? i was voting him for some minor RVS pings, then pointed out that he thought he might be biased about Almost but was interested in scumreading/policying the slot early on.

i'm not saying you didn't also make a point, i'm just making that clear.
i also don't think 'shading you for lack of input' is a fair assessment when what i was questioning was the lack of depth to what appeared to be a long-held scumread.
and part of your defense of that is that you were one of the few players to take a hard stance on Majiffy vs. Tywin. that had nothing to do with what i was saying, you took a stance but didn't talk about your thought process in the least. (which you did in that other reads post concerning some townreads and Desperado)

does it matter that you handled the situation 'better' than other players?

Tywin: i did read your argument with Majiffy. that i had difficult parsing the back and forth doesn't mean i was lazy about it.

that said, this issue with Maria's read progression is one of a few contradictions i've seen from her, and why i don't like the slot. so i like zefiend's analysis here.
normally i don't scumread contradictions, being a contrary town player myself, but often they make sense when explained. so far, Maria's explanations have not convinced me.

[Majiffy]

I don't agree with the Clumsy lynch. I've said from the start that it seemed like low-hanging fruit, and Tywin made a great point about the lack of formation of a counter-wagon. I don't think the Maria wagon qualifies because of the nature of its formation. A few people independently making points about self-meta, scum-meta, and her generally bad posting from this game. It wasn't a fast pile-up. Also, of the "side-liners" consisting of {Me, Desperado, and Vifam} none of us came in and jumped onto any wagon. If anything, I think that that says that between Maria/Clumsy, Maria is more likely to be scum.

Literally the opposite of Tywin's claim

Also you're now voting with your biggest scumread against the counterwagon the person you're "agreeing with" is voting.

[Tywin Lannister]

I don't agree with the Clumsy lynch. I've said from the start that it seemed like low-hanging fruit, and Tywin made a great point about the lack of formation of a counter-wagon. I don't think the Maria wagon qualifies because of the nature of its formation. A few people independently making points about self-meta, scum-meta, and her generally bad posting from this game. It wasn't a fast pile-up. Also, of the "side-liners" consisting of {Me, Desperado, and Vifam} none of us came in and jumped onto any wagon. If anything, I think that that says that between Maria/Clumsy, Maria is more likely to be scum.

Literally the opposite of Tywin's claim

Also you're now voting with your biggest scumread against the counterwagon the person you're "agreeing with" is voting.

I agree with Majiff for once. This is odd. Gonna read zef' post now though. Skimmed past it and saw a Maria vote and frowned. This makes no sense.

[Tywin Lannister]

Zefiend: if you are town, then why can't you see WHY nobody else will even look at Majiff at all, question his lack of scum hunting, his naked vote on Maria (in a scum wagon spot) while not giving any reasons at all (he called Imperium 'genuine' in the Maria vote post, nothing about her), never ever asks any questions of anyone (aka he's not trying to sort a single person... Cuz he's obv scum), etc. Why can you somehow understand the exact reason why no wagon on him gains traction and anyone that didn't flat out ignore our exchange either discredited me by saying I'm a weak player, called me unreasonable in Alisae (did you find my case unreasonable? I sure didn't), and given excuses by others as to why he plays this way and can't be sum whatsoever? Imagine really hard why so many either entirely ignore Majiff's slot or discredit anyone that goes for him. Still wondering?

Scum won't bus their buddies D1. That's why Majiff gets no traction and why so many ignore him completely, regardless of what he has/hasn't done the entire game. It's so obvious it's stupid. It really is ridiculous, but scum won't let their bud get lynched. Maria isn't scum cuz it's far too easy to lynch her. Nobody is against it except me, so that means scum are all on it. Shit wagon is what it is.

[Tywin Lannister]

NC: bullshit. Sorry, but that's false. You never legit pushed Majiff, and when I DID do it, you ignored the hell out of the entire exchange and made a few comments about slight SRing me. Don't claim a stance you never made, and doing so is scummy. Otherwise, if you did believe Majiff was scum, then why ignore the entire thing when others were pushing him? You flat out ignored it. Don't try claiming otherwise after that. You're owning an RVS vote as if that's a SR. Cmon. Really? I'm calling bullshit on that.

[Tywin Lannister]

It doesn't really matter, since Majiff won't be lynched and Maria will, but with so many people willing to lynch Maria and absolutely no pushback, it's pretty obvious scum are on it. That's common sense IMO. Majiff getting all the pushback means scum weren't on it. Again, common sense. You're all good enough to see it. None of you are bad/clueless players by any stretch of the word.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'd Maria flips scum, I'll gladly follow next seeing as I was so wrong, but i really don't think I am. It's too easy of a lynch and no one saying 'no' here. Everyone, from my biggest TRs to biggest SRs are on it for the most part. I think that means it's a mislynch.

Maria: you mine as well claim ASAP, because you're getting lynched soon. I've not seen anyone else really saying no. If Zef says yes along with Almost/ABR, I don't think anyone will agree with my position.

[Almost50]

@Tywin: Stop wasting your time and effort on a wagon that will not take off today. Let's have a flip first and then we can reevaluate.

Now, you may have reservations, but just play with me and assume that Maria flipped Scum. Would you still SR Majiffy as hard as you do now? Would you feel better about him? Or would it not matter at all?

[Not Chara]

Tywin, i know you're pissed off about this, but calm down. i read the damn exchange. my read on Majiffy changed because of it and because there are players i'm SRing more now, he was a weaker early-game SR.

i didn't have anything else to say about the exchange because it was difficult to follow for me. i don't know what else i can say. so i gut-read from it and then moved on to exchanges that would actually allow me to form some reads i can rely on.

i'm not 'owning an SR'. i'm refuting zefiend's point that he was the first player to say something concrete about Majiffy. that's really it.

as for arguments about wagons receiving opposition vs. non-opposition: not something i look at day 1. i've been town and wagoned for a while in games. my pushers would always cite 'lack of opposition' as a reason for me to be scum, because scum were saving me for lategame or thinking there were better targets. or just defending me.

[Not Chara]

I'd Maria flips scum, I'll gladly follow next seeing as I was so wrong

we don't lynch people for being wrong. if you're town, stop suggesting to take a dive for no reason.

[ɀefiend]

zefiend: you realize i was the first player to give a reason to scumread Majiffy, right? i was voting him for some minor RVS pings, then pointed out that he thought he might be biased about Almost but was interested in scumreading/policying the slot early on.

i'm not saying you didn't also make a point, i'm just making that clear.
i also don't think 'shading you for lack of input' is a fair assessment when what i was questioning was the lack of depth to what appeared to be a long-held scumread.
and part of your defense of that is that you were one of the few players to take a hard stance on Majiffy vs. Tywin. that had nothing to do with what i was saying, you took a stance but didn't talk about your thought process in the least. (which you did in that other reads post concerning some townreads and Desperado)

My bad, I couldn't deduce all of that from a naked vote

It's not long-held, but since Majiffy has since misinterpreted it too I won't hold that against you. It probably just seems that way since I haven't been able to post much this past week.

[ɀefiend]

I don't agree with the Clumsy lynch. I've said from the start that it seemed like low-hanging fruit, and Tywin made a great point about the lack of formation of a counter-wagon. I don't think the Maria wagon qualifies because of the nature of its formation. A few people independently making points about self-meta, scum-meta, and her generally bad posting from this game. It wasn't a fast pile-up. Also, of the "side-liners" consisting of {Me, Desperado, and Vifam} none of us came in and jumped onto any wagon. If anything, I think that that says that between Maria/Clumsy, Maria is more likely to be scum.

Literally the opposite of Tywin's claim

Also you're now voting with your biggest scumread against the counterwagon the person you're "agreeing with" is voting.

Agreeing with Tywin in his argument with you has NOTHING to do with Maria. You are conflating the two issues to try and make it seem like I should be aligned with Tywin on every issue. I'm not.

Also, you aren't my biggest scumread. You also conveniently missed the part of my post where I explained how ABR and Almost talked about your play style and analysis of the 1v1 so I reconsidered.

[Socrates]

No I'm here Tywin talk to me about things.

How you feeling? You haven't said much in a while.

[ɀefiend]

Zefiend: if you are town, then why can't you see WHY nobody else will even look at Majiff at all, question his lack of scum hunting, his naked vote on Maria (in a scum wagon spot) while not giving any reasons at all (he called Imperium 'genuine' in the Maria vote post, nothing about her), never ever asks any questions of anyone (aka he's not trying to sort a single person... Cuz he's obv scum), etc. Why can you somehow understand the exact reason why no wagon on him gains traction and anyone that didn't flat out ignore our exchange either discredited me by saying I'm a weak player, called me unreasonable in Alisae (did you find my case unreasonable? I sure didn't), and given excuses by others as to why he plays this way and can't be sum whatsoever? Imagine really hard why so many either entirely ignore Majiff's slot or discredit anyone that goes for him. Still wondering?

Scum won't bus their buddies D1. That's why Majiff gets no traction and why so many ignore him completely, regardless of what he has/hasn't done the entire game. It's so obvious it's stupid. It really is ridiculous, but scum won't let their bud get lynched. Maria isn't scum cuz it's far too easy to lynch her. Nobody is against it except me, so that means scum are all on it. Shit wagon is what it is.

I am going to have to disagree with your overall assessment here. There is a possibility that Majiffy is scum, but that wouldn't dissuade me from lynching Maria. Majiffy could be a buddy getting in on the wagon before she goes down, so that he won't look bad after the flip.

It's easier to lynch scum!Maria than scum!Majiffy because he actually put up some defense to your arguments, albeit contrived and mimicky. Like you said, if other people can't see it then that ship has sailed. Maria has offered little to nothing all game and her latest attempts at explaining her reads have dug her own grave. The ease of the lynch has no correlation with alignment in this context when you examine how the wagon was formed. It wasn't a counterwagon, it wasn't a policy or consolidation lynch. It was merely a number of people gradually deducing that Maria has been scummy and needs rope. If your only defense of the slot relies on the ease or speed of the wagon, it holds no merit.

I found what you said about Alisae to be agreeable regarding Majiffy, but I believe other people were questioning not your content, but rather your conviction. You were holding a firm position that Majiffy was scum, but saying that it was also possible for Alisae to be town based on other stuff. Flip-flopping is a fine line from fence-sitting and if

I

had to take a hard stance, I would say I'd consider Alisae suspect #1 if Majiffy ever flips scum.

[Majiffy]

Agreeing with Tywin in his argument with you has NOTHING to do with Maria.

That's not what I'm saying here.

I'm saying you say you agree with Tywin and yet your positions on both Clumsy AND Maria are opposite of what Tywin has been saying.

You are conflating the two issues to try and make it seem like I should be aligned with Tywin on every issue. I'm not.

...Nope? I'm just refuting the statements

you've

made. Tywin himself has agreed with me on this.

Also, you aren't my biggest scumread. You also conveniently missed the part of my post where I explained how ABR and Almost talked about your play style and analysis of the 1v1 so I reconsidered.

The only one who knows my playstyle here is Imperium (Nacho)

You're just empirically wrong on everything you say and I don't know if it's because you're not reading, can't read, won't read, or simply lying.

[ɀefiend]

i'm not 'owning an SR'. i'm refuting zefiend's point that he was the first player to say something concrete about Majiffy. that's really it.

Yeah, this is why I don't like being shaded. Because your assertions are provably wrong:

Iso Not Chara + zefiend, Ctrl+f "Majiffy":

VOTE: Majiffy

@Tywin I wouldn't mind lynching Vifam

Desperado is pinging me more than Clumsy tbh. Don't really get how ABR pairs them as scum partners. Also not sure how a Clumsy flip would magically solve the game. Lots of people are making some bad pre-flip associations.

Gonna VOTE: Majiffy though. He ignored basically everything about Clumsy and the relevant discussion to post flavor related fluff. It seems like he's brushing off engagement.

i don't want Almost lynched and i don't see a reason to vote ABR. i'd much prefer more players on Majiffy. i want to see Tywin respond to Desperado's 483 before i do anything else on that front.
Phoenix's 448 is what's hurt my townread on the slot the most. not one, but both heads agree with this tell? it's nowhere near a universal tell, and coming from anyone from Socrates is cause enough for me to be suspicious. i'd actually thought there were more players agreeing with this case, but now that i'm looking i think i was wrong.
the only one left is Alisae, who manages to be a frustrating player for me to read whenever i've tried to.

I'm not outright accusing you of doing this intentionally, but it is most certainly a scum tactic to try to twist the interpretation or timeline of events to suit your narrative.

[Socrates]

I'd Maria flips scum, I'll gladly follow next seeing as I was so wrong

we don't lynch people for being wrong. if you're town, stop suggesting to take a dive for no reason.

It's really getting tiring.

Also Tywin hasn't seen scum hard bus a partner day 1?

I did it in my last game, and I should link him to Mayor Mafia. Both scumbuddies hard bussed their roleblocker and even stuck to the bus

after he claimed cop

.

This is also the game that I first observed the thing that I scumread you for at the beginning of the game, NC.

Though if anyone does read that game, prepare to see a much younger Socrates. So much energy! So full of life!