In post 362, WhyMafia wrote:I don't feel that this is relevant. Feel free to disagree though
If keeping your thoughts and understanding secret helps Town, sure why not. Usually town try's to be honest and straight forward as possible. To each their own.
I just feel like I'll be biased bc srceen generally makes me feel frustrated. I fail to see how knowing this helps town but ok
In post 354, WhyMafia wrote:If you had a doctor protection, who would you protect
I'd really, really like to hear your reasons for asking this.
I don't give my reasons to scum!!!!
In all seriousness, in case any of y'all flip scum, I doubt any of you would say that you would kill your scum buddy. The doc prot shows how much you think somebody is town.
In post 362, WhyMafia wrote:I don't feel that this is relevant. Feel free to disagree though
If keeping your thoughts and understanding secret helps Town, sure why not. Usually town try's to be honest and straight forward as possible. To each their own.
I just feel like I'll be biased bc srceen generally makes me feel frustrated. I fail to see how knowing this helps town but ok
Sounds to me like a personal problem.
It helps Town and it helps you because the whole point is understanding people and interactions. If it's known that I easily frustrate you it gives context to our interactions together.
Granted I don't understand how I can already frustrate you. I believe this is the first time we ever played together and I haven't done to much this game.
VOTE: WhyMafia
WhyNot
"A man can not be too careful on the choices of his enemies." Oscar Wilde
In post 376, WhyMafia wrote:The doc prot shows how much you think somebody is town.
I guess it was a bad plan tho :/
Wouldn't asking us our strongest townread have the same effect?
Asking us who we'd protect as docs, sounds like something scum would ask to avoid a blocked kill.
Then again, you still read town to me. So does Srceenplay.
In post 376, WhyMafia wrote:The doc prot shows how much you think somebody is town.
I guess it was a bad plan tho :/
Then again, you still read town to me. So does Srceenplay.
Why and why?
Whymafia:
*Is pretty actively asking relevant questions.
*Seems to put some effort into providing theories of his own.
*Seems to be pushing the game a lot, and is somewhat annoyed when the game stalls.
*He's fine with claiming, and just looks to genuine to me.
He could be a really great actor though, and I've taken notice that a lot of his posts are simply rephrasing of other's already-mentioned theories. Anyways, for me he's still on town-side of life.
Srceenplay:
Much of the same, and his most recent scumlike-action is just too simple to be read as a scummy imo. If he's scum and keeps pushing arguments like "better a defenseless null than an active townie", he'll probably be lynched later anyways.
In post 367, Loopdan wrote:@nancy-- So was there a difference between how Tes and Noodle dealt with the claiming strategy and the way I dealt with it? Because we all pushed hard that it be done.
Yes. It isn't pushing it that's pro-scum, it's orienting your activity around pushing it. You haven't posted much at all, but they both have, and I've sensed more nuance in your stances than in theirs. As frustrating as you've been on this, you haven't been one-dimensional.
In post 368, StealthyNoodle wrote:I'm aware, and it's worrying. You're more active than others here, and I've read that scum in general tend to be more quiet.
Still you've dodged our questions several times, so I'll ask again:
How did you come to the conclusion I'm obvious scum?
What made you say that your VT-role was obvious, so early in the game?
I don't think it's true that scum are more quiet in general. Activity is fundamentally NAI. I wasn't aware that I'd dodged your question, I came to conclusion that you're scum by the way you've handled your pushes. You attack other players in a way that shows little interest in sorting them or casting light on their content and significant interest in demeaning them and pushing your agenda (that they're scum). The difference between the former and the latter is that the former expresses the desire to communicate (with either them or others) and the latter expresses the desire to kill.
Essentially it was obvious (although in retrospect, only to the more experienced players) because of the way I'd fought the claim situation. If I were a PR, I would never have put myself into the spotlight in that way. Placing myself squarely at the center of the gamestate without caring for the consequences is really only something a VT ever does, because a VT has little to lose whereas a PR has to play carefully to avoid being run up and forced to claim.
hi meet my mafiascum gravestone, the flowers were probably left by camn or schadd or Prism, blow them kisses for me would you?
Note: The following is stream-of-consciousness as I read, so expect things to change as I go.
Page 1
-Post 17 (and subsequent posts) leads me to think nancy is Town. This isn't based on standard tactics or anything, it's largely based on my relationship with nancy. I have a sense that she tends to play a bit fast and loose when she's Town, especially in the early game. A first-post scumclaim-in-jest isn't something I see her doing as scum. Subsequent shenanigans over the next few pages suggests she's trying to feel out who's going to be too eager to jump on her, feeling out who's going to take the bait. That strikes me as genuine scumhunting.
-WhyMafia jumping on Chronicle for being vote 2 on Stealthy instead of LoopDan for being the third vote strikes me as odd and disingenuous, and if this weren't a Newbie game I'd be all over that. We'll see how it plays out.
-WhyMafia then jumping onto nancy looks like scum falling into her trap. Definitely putting a pin in that.
Page 2
-Not much to observe here, nancy continues to come off as Town.
Page 3
-Pine enters, nancy interaction is pretty obvTown.
Page 4
-Stealthy's entrance looks like newScum. Praises TesXX and LoopDan for empty reasons, votes nancy as the most dynamic player present. Does not support BP-claiming strategy, agrees with nancy, but does it anyway? Then flips around and says she's not supporting a pro-Town agenda? Naaaahhh. Also as noted in Post 90, exaggerating charges against nancy.
-WhyMafia continues to make moves that come off as opportunistic, specifically moving against LoopDan for a page 1 RVS vote. Hesitating a little on my scumread though, not sure even newScum would do this.
Page 5
-A little concerned about LoopDan's push against non-claimers in the BP strategy. Citing prior results does not guarantee future success. This looks like a fallacy of some kind. Also not a fan of his dig at nancy about her statement about teaching>wincon (though I superficially agree with him, the best way to teach is to stick to wincon). As a player new to SE-status, nancy is allowed to be wrong about meta.
@nancy: Per your statement in 122, please claim either "Not BP" or "BP". While I will be interested in moderating a post-game discussion on the strategy in MD, for now it is the order of the day. Suffice to say that, if you are BP, there is no real downside to claiming it. If you aren't, there still isn't a downside. That was the whole basis of the proposal, that there was no downside for Town, and it limits scum fakeclaiming options.
Page 6
-Conversation veers into theory at this point, so some general observations: Chronicle strikes me as classic newTown, trying to figure stuff out but not really knowing how. TesXX has been focusing almost exclusively on theory and strategy discussion, with a surprising dearth of real content. Suspicions at this point include StealtyNoodle, WhyMafia, TesXX, maybe LoopDan. TRs (Town reads) include nancy and Chronicle. Still need sorting on Srceenplay and bjc/CogMachine.
Page 7
-nancy's push against TesXX at the bottom of 6/top of 7 doesn't make any damn sense. However, what's much more incisive is TesXX's reaction to it. His reaction to strong suspicion screams "I am scum frustrated at being caught for the wrong reasons." This is a classic tell, but is sometimes hard to distinguish from "Town suspected for bad reasons." This one definitely strikes me as the former. Post 167 in particular raises a red flag.
-Ha, I knew I was right on Chronicle. 168 is the Towniest of Townposts. Objective-driven, shows evidence of doing research, saltiness directed at people who aren't helping accomplish wincon. Chronicle's a hard TR now.
Page 8
-Getting cold feet on my WhyMafia SR now. Meandering uncertainty looks more like newTown than newScum. Some of his reads in 194 are hard to push, where I see newScum going for easier targets.
-Much of this page was devoted to discussion of lurker theory, so I'm going to slip into IC Mode...
Page 9
-Interactions between StealthyNoodle and WhyMafia don't strike me as scum theatre, especially given lack of daytalk (I double-checked; post 3)
-Just because someone is posting elsewhere doesn't mean they are intentionally ignoring the game. Playing multiple games at once is a significant time investment, and when one has limited time, one must often prioritize games they're caught up on. I was quite a few pages behind at this point.
Page 10
-Not a ton to say here, though the vultures circling over my absence are really obvious. StealthyNoodle, TesXX, and WhyMafia spend the whole page setting up pushes against me and her. Taking down a Town IC and dynamic SE would virtually guarantee a scum win. Not sure completely which two of the three is scum, but I'm pretty sure it's in that set of {Noodle, TesXX, WhyMafia}. Still, this is stream-of-consciousness, so it's possible that later events will suggest differently.
Page 11
-Noodle attacks on nancy continue to be trying to make something out of nothing. This strikes me strongly as someone trying to take down a threat.
-
I do not endorse Tracker-claiming
: The whole point of BP-claiming is that it limits scum fakeclaiming opportunities without a drawback for Town. Having a Tracker claim is BEGGING for scum to roleblock or kill a major investigative role. Heavy suspicion of TesXX for suggesting this.
Page 12
-LoopDan pagetop endorsement of Tes!Town and Noodle!Town just gobsmacks me. No.
-Noodle 279 "not sure about Tes" at this stage is another "wtf" moment. Tes has plenty of content out, a read should definitely be possible. Nothing at this stage looks like scumbuddies.
-Srceenplay 290 out of left field, strikes me as newTown, insufficient evidence for a strong read.
Page 13
-WhyMafia 303 strikes me as gamesolving. Asking incisive motivations-based questions of the hardest-to-sort active player.
-Tentatively agreeing with nancy 314, LoopDan looks like stubborn Town SE sticking to bad reads.
-CogMachine catchup post shouts newTown. TRing TesXX for very incorrect reasons (obsession with setup rather than reads is scummy, not Towny). I'd object to the srceenplay SR, but the guy has less content than I do and he's actually been posting consistently. Pressure is good.
Page 14
-Noodle continues being scummy. Cog continues to exhibit gamesolving traits. I'm liking his push on Srceenplay, it vibes genuine.
-Noodle's 349 readslist in particular seems...opportunistic is the wrong word? Advantageous, convenient? He's looking to get rid of threats, keep allies, and butter up people not SRing him. Readslist seems calibrated to support this objective.
Page 15
-Noodle yet again, 368, throwing absolutely everything against the wall to see what sticks. Going after nancy for VT-claiming is particularly egregious. Fabricating NAI stuff into a scumread is not a Town tactic.
Page 16
-WhyMafia's saltiness in 376 is Towny. @WhyMafia - Still give reasons, even if it's scum asking. Openness is
always
usually
sometimes
in this case good, and scum aren't the only one who will read your reasoning.
-386 is goodposting
OKAY! Finally down. Very sorry this took so long. I'm going to stay current from here out.
In post 334, Chronicle wrote:And with her stances on pine and noodle(disagree with both of them) as well as her recent reaction, it kinda reads as scum getting defensive.
I don't get defensive as scum but which parts read as scum getting defensive?
Defensive isn't a very good word to represent what I see it as in retrospect
In post 380, StealthyNoodle wrote:Whymafia:
*Is pretty actively asking relevant questions.
*Seems to put some effort into providing theories of his own.
*Seems to be pushing the game a lot, and is somewhat annoyed when the game stalls.
*He's fine with
Has he been asking relevant questions? Has he been pushing the gamestate?
I'd have to ISO him to verify these things, but the very fact I have to do that means I can't recall him doing any of these.
His questions always seem aimless and empty, and his posts are forgettable and have never stood out.
Note: The following is stream-of-consciousness as I read, so expect things to change as I go.
Page 1
-Post 17 (and subsequent posts) leads me to think nancy is Town. This isn't based on standard tactics or anything, it's largely based on my relationship with nancy. I have a sense that she tends to play a bit fast and loose when she's Town, especially in the early game. A first-post scumclaim-in-jest isn't something I see her doing as scum. Subsequent shenanigans over the next few pages suggests she's trying to feel out who's going to be too eager to jump on her, feeling out who's going to take the bait. That strikes me as genuine scumhunting.
-WhyMafia jumping on Chronicle for being vote 2 on Stealthy instead of LoopDan for being the third vote strikes me as odd and disingenuous, and if this weren't a Newbie game I'd be all over that. We'll see how it plays out.
-WhyMafia then jumping onto nancy looks like scum falling into her trap. Definitely putting a pin in that.
Page 2
-Not much to observe here, nancy continues to come off as Town.
Page 3
-Pine enters, nancy interaction is pretty obvTown.
Page 4
-Stealthy's entrance looks like newScum. Praises TesXX and LoopDan for empty reasons, votes nancy as the most dynamic player present. Does not support BP-claiming strategy, agrees with nancy, but does it anyway? Then flips around and says she's not supporting a pro-Town agenda? Naaaahhh. Also as noted in Post 90, exaggerating charges against nancy.
-WhyMafia continues to make moves that come off as opportunistic, specifically moving against LoopDan for a page 1 RVS vote. Hesitating a little on my scumread though, not sure even newScum would do this.
Page 5
-A little concerned about LoopDan's push against non-claimers in the BP strategy. Citing prior results does not guarantee future success. This looks like a fallacy of some kind. Also not a fan of his dig at nancy about her statement about teaching>wincon (though I superficially agree with him, the best way to teach is to stick to wincon). As a player new to SE-status, nancy is allowed to be wrong about meta.
@nancy: Per your statement in 122, please claim either "Not BP" or "BP". While I will be interested in moderating a post-game discussion on the strategy in MD, for now it is the order of the day. Suffice to say that, if you are BP, there is no real downside to claiming it. If you aren't, there still isn't a downside. That was the whole basis of the proposal, that there was no downside for Town, and it limits scum fakeclaiming options.
Page 6
-Conversation veers into theory at this point, so some general observations: Chronicle strikes me as classic newTown, trying to figure stuff out but not really knowing how. TesXX has been focusing almost exclusively on theory and strategy discussion, with a surprising dearth of real content. Suspicions at this point include StealtyNoodle, WhyMafia, TesXX, maybe LoopDan. TRs (Town reads) include nancy and Chronicle. Still need sorting on Srceenplay and bjc/CogMachine.
Page 7
-nancy's push against TesXX at the bottom of 6/top of 7 doesn't make any damn sense. However, what's much more incisive is TesXX's reaction to it. His reaction to strong suspicion screams "I am scum frustrated at being caught for the wrong reasons." This is a classic tell, but is sometimes hard to distinguish from "Town suspected for bad reasons." This one definitely strikes me as the former. Post 167 in particular raises a red flag.
-Ha, I knew I was right on Chronicle. 168 is the Towniest of Townposts. Objective-driven, shows evidence of doing research, saltiness directed at people who aren't helping accomplish wincon. Chronicle's a hard TR now.
Page 8
-Getting cold feet on my WhyMafia SR now. Meandering uncertainty looks more like newTown than newScum. Some of his reads in 194 are hard to push, where I see newScum going for easier targets.
-Much of this page was devoted to discussion of lurker theory, so I'm going to slip into IC Mode...
Page 9
-Interactions between StealthyNoodle and WhyMafia don't strike me as scum theatre, especially given lack of daytalk (I double-checked; post 3)
-Just because someone is posting elsewhere doesn't mean they are intentionally ignoring the game. Playing multiple games at once is a significant time investment, and when one has limited time, one must often prioritize games they're caught up on. I was quite a few pages behind at this point.
Page 10
-Not a ton to say here, though the vultures circling over my absence are really obvious. StealthyNoodle, TesXX, and WhyMafia spend the whole page setting up pushes against me and her. Taking down a Town IC and dynamic SE would virtually guarantee a scum win. Not sure completely which two of the three is scum, but I'm pretty sure it's in that set of {Noodle, TesXX, WhyMafia}. Still, this is stream-of-consciousness, so it's possible that later events will suggest differently.
Page 11
-Noodle attacks on nancy continue to be trying to make something out of nothing. This strikes me strongly as someone trying to take down a threat.
-
I do not endorse Tracker-claiming
: The whole point of BP-claiming is that it limits scum fakeclaiming opportunities without a drawback for Town. Having a Tracker claim is BEGGING for scum to roleblock or kill a major investigative role. Heavy suspicion of TesXX for suggesting this.
Page 12
-LoopDan pagetop endorsement of Tes!Town and Noodle!Town just gobsmacks me. No.
-Noodle 279 "not sure about Tes" at this stage is another "wtf" moment. Tes has plenty of content out, a read should definitely be possible. Nothing at this stage looks like scumbuddies.
-Srceenplay 290 out of left field, strikes me as newTown, insufficient evidence for a strong read.
Page 13
-WhyMafia 303 strikes me as gamesolving. Asking incisive motivations-based questions of the hardest-to-sort active player.
-Tentatively agreeing with nancy 314, LoopDan looks like stubborn Town SE sticking to bad reads.
-CogMachine catchup post shouts newTown. TRing TesXX for very incorrect reasons (obsession with setup rather than reads is scummy, not Towny). I'd object to the srceenplay SR, but the guy has less content than I do and he's actually been posting consistently. Pressure is good.
Page 14
-Noodle continues being scummy. Cog continues to exhibit gamesolving traits. I'm liking his push on Srceenplay, it vibes genuine.
-Noodle's 349 readslist in particular seems...opportunistic is the wrong word? Advantageous, convenient? He's looking to get rid of threats, keep allies, and butter up people not SRing him. Readslist seems calibrated to support this objective.
Page 15
-Noodle yet again, 368, throwing absolutely everything against the wall to see what sticks. Going after nancy for VT-claiming is particularly egregious. Fabricating NAI stuff into a scumread is not a Town tactic.
Page 16
-WhyMafia's saltiness in 376 is Towny. @WhyMafia - Still give reasons, even if it's scum asking. Openness is
always
usually
sometimes
in this case good, and scum aren't the only one who will read your reasoning.
-386 is goodposting
OKAY! Finally down. Very sorry this took so long. I'm going to stay current from here out.
In post 303, WhyMafia wrote:@srceenplay
If you could protect one person who would it be
If you could kill someone who would it be (daykill)
This one? A couple of things.
1) Scum tend to hedge their bets with their reads. They like to have few TRs, few SRs, and lots of grey area that they can work with and be flexible/opportunistic. By pressing someone to commit to hard reads, WM is narrowing that grey area and putting the suspect off balance.
2) The choice of suspect is also kind of telling. WM didn't pick someone who was strongly present or someone who was absent, he picked someone who had thus far been difficult to sort. That strikes me as gamesolving.
3) This sort of question forces people to make connections and associatives, and can be very handy down the road.
Now, I don't think WM meant all of that, but the motives are probably Town. The quoted post more than anything else seems to vindicate my cold feet regarding early WM suspicion.
In post 392, Chronicle wrote:Same goes for nancy, you never told me which posts felt town to you.
Some of his early postings seemed like clueless newbie Town to me, basically. I haven't liked his content since then, though, and unlike Pine I think the questions about who you're going to kill / doc to be really sketchy.
hi meet my mafiascum gravestone, the flowers were probably left by camn or schadd or Prism, blow them kisses for me would you?
but which parts read as scum getting defensive?