Mini 1898 - Inception Mafia - The Hub (GAME OVER)

[Leonshade]

Do you kick all lower-level dreams at the same time or just one?

Does being in limbo count as being eliminated for win conditions?

Is it possible to get more than a majority into a dream using the normal mechanics?

Right now I'm thinking we should lynch first in the main thread, then have scummy players start a dream, then lymch there, and so on.

There are no flips from lynches that happen in dream threads, we should lynch in the main thread whenever possible.

The reasons to dream are the deadline extension, as well as whatever effects those PRs/afflictions have.

3. You should cast the public actions (like a kick) publicly in the relevant topic and the private actions - if any - using PM's.

kicks are public.
private kicks would mean scum would use them constantly to take advantage of their double Perception gain, and to ferry town players to Limbo en masse.

Ah, alright.

Giving scum the ability to abuse the mechanic is exactly why I thought they might be private, though you're right that that could be broken in the right circumstances.

[Not Chara]

we can only lynch in the main thread once, Leon. it isn't possible to concentrate our lynches there. the reasons to dream are that we're forced to.

[Leonshade]

Just when I understood how this setup worked.

Though I don't think the setup is all that hard to understand, it just feels that way because all this information is front-loaded. I think we could make a decent tl;dr of the setup's main points (though everyone should read the setup info anyway, it's literally why we have a pre-game ohase.

[Not Chara]

let me attempt to reword the setup. this isn't a tl;dr, it's simply a rewording in case one wants the first post structured differently.

mods, there are questions within.

Spoiler:

there are three types of threads. the main thread, the dream threads that are created during the game, and the limbo thread.
we start in a main thread, all of us. this thread (like all of them) is private so that we can be removed from it when we are brought into a dream thread/limbo.
there are multiple 'levels' to the dreams, like in Inception. they max out at four, as the level after that would be limbo (though limbo is

not

a dream thread).

when someone is majority voted with a

Dream

vote, they and all the players on that wagon are removed from the thread they are currently in, and brought into the lynched player's subconscious, one level deeper than before. (main thread goes to dream level 1, dream level 1 would go to dream level 2)
you can not see the levels above you, but you can see the dream created from the thread you're currently in. if i'm in dream level 2, and some players created a dream that went to level 3, i can see

only

the dream level 2 thread and that level 3 dream. (but i could not see a different level 3 dream happening from a different dream level 2 than the one i'm in, hypothetically). i can post in level 2, but not in level 3, i can only see it. i lose visibility in dream level 1 as soon as i move to dream level 2, and i can't see the main thread. whether you can post in a thread is reflected in the first post, and should always be checked.

lynching a player in the main thread or the limbo thread results in them flipping and dying. lynching a player in any dream thread sends them immediately to limbo. a player can only be lynched in the main thread

once

in the entire game.

players in limbo are not dead, not flipped. however, they are treated as dead only for the purposes of win conditions. dreaming players are still considered alive for win conditions.

it is not possible to lynch any players in a thread if that thread contains dreaming players.

mod, check my understanding. dreaming players cannot read the thread they left, but they are still 'in' that thread due to this rule.

fourth level dreaming is special. these players are able to see and interact with players in limbo. each player in the 4th level dream can bring back one limbo player with them, when they move up to a higher dream.

mod: can players choose to spend perception to move up a dream level without a kick being initiated?

players start with 100% perception.

please also confirm this part for me.

moving up one level of a dream costs 20% perception. 2 is 50%, etc. it's in the opening post.
moving from a 4th level dream

straight

to the main thread costs 100% perception, but moving only from a 4th level dream to a 3rd level dream costs 20% perception (as they are moving up 1 level).

this is not explicitly stated, which is why it's only a guess.

a kick can be publicly executed on a player who is currently dreaming. (by being majority dream voted, as explained, or being on that wagon). this means, you are in a thread and someone else is asleep, and one dream level deeper than you. (for example, you're in dream level 1 and there is someone in your thread who is one level deeper). that dream will be forcibly ended. (including all subdreams, of course) all players within those dreams must attempt to escape by spending perception, and move up levels to safety. if someone does not have enough perception to escape, they move to limbo.
2 or less players in any thread, with no dreaming players in that thread, is grounds for an automatic kick that will move them up one dream level (provided they can pay the perception cost)

i've omitted some exact numbers for things, and other info from the first post, such as how to recover perception.

[Edgar Allan Pro]

Since we only get 1 lynch in the main thread, should we also use this 7 days to figure out who that should be so we can start the game with a flip?

[Not Chara]

i mean, sure. but what does having only one lynch have to do with starting to hunt now? the two don't seem related. if we had normal lynching, starting now would still make sense.

[Neko Tail]

i actually understand all of the mechanics. wonderful. it's going to be hard to sort people if there's confusion about this.
but, to be on the safe side:

players in limbo only count as dead for the purposes of win conditions, correct? so they would still get the perception boosts on a player being flipped.

This is correct.

I assume Leonshade got his question answered? Not Chara's answer was correct.

mod, check my understanding. dreaming players cannot read the thread they left, but they are still 'in' that thread due to this rule.

False; that rule means that, if a dream was initiated in a thread and that dream still exists, you cannot lynch any of the remaining players in that thread until all dreams above it are gone.

mod: can players choose to spend perception to move up a dream level without a kick being initiated?

No. There may or may not be personal abilities that alter this, but by the standard rules a kick always occurs on an entire dream.

please also confirm this part for me.

Yes, unless otherwise stated in your role PM (which you will receive after this phase).

moving up one level of a dream costs 20% perception. 2 is 50%, etc. it's in the opening post.
moving from a 4th level dream straight to the main thread costs 100% perception, but moving only from a 4th level dream to a 3rd level dream costs 20% perception (as they are moving up 1 level). this is not explicitly stated, which is why it's only a guess.

This is correct.

[Not Chara]

thank you. :>

so to word it another way, it's impossible to leave a dream without relying on another player to kick you out?

and rewording your first answer: in a situation in the main thread where there has not been a main thread lynch yet, and there are dreams occurring in the game, no one in the main thread can be lynched until every dream is gone?

[Not Chara]

the above should refer to moving up out of a dream. i know a dream can be left by going to limbo or a deeper dream.

[Infinity 324]

Everyone good with scummy players dreaming? Unless we get the entire scumteam into a 2nd- or lower-level dream, it should work. and even if we do get the scumteam, we can observe them so it's not like they can just all lynch town without a reason.

If we don't like the group for whatever reason we can kick and start another dream. Or if we think scum don't have a lot of perception.

[Leonshade]

Mod: Can you confirm or deny that only Afflictions determine all abilities, even for mafia players?

That's a good summary, Chara. The most important information not in there is that the deadline is universal, dependent on the deepest dreaming party and scum win when the deadline ends.

Deadline might actually be scum's primary wincon here, since it's nightless. That means that scum will be looking to stall the game out. Though they can also use deadline panic to force rushed decisions. The counter is proactivity, we need to get things done right off the bat.

It's nightless and the available roles are semi-open (if I'm right about afflictions), so people should be open to claiming early on, at least if they have a role that benefits from being public knowledge (like investigatives). Then we can use that information to plan out who should enter which dream and what actions they should take. If people start getting roleblocked or similar, the dreams allow us to narrow down who's doing so. (I'm assuming that you can't effect things outside your dream. Though I bet some PRs allow you to effect things in a deeper dream level, but not above your dream level or laterally).

[Not Chara]

Everyone good with scummy players dreaming? Unless we get the entire scumteam into a 2nd- or lower-level dream, it should work. and even if we do get the scumteam, we can observe them so it's not like they can just all lynch town without a reason.

If we don't like the group for whatever reason we can kick and start another dream. Or if we think scum don't have a lot of perception.

i'd say it depends a lot of the situation. this also means that scummy players would have more (or the only) opportunity to pull players out of limbo, and send them there.

[Not Chara]

not to mention that forcing players onto any wagon is downright impossible. plus, there are roles that get power by going through dreaming levels.
no, i think that the entire game will stretch through all threads. that's what it's built for. we need good town players within the dreams as much as we need them out.

[Leonshade]

I don't know if we should use the main thread lynch first. The flip will be premier currency in this setup, we should save it for when we need it most.

PRs will have a big impact on who we send to dream. There should be at least one towny player observing and being on kicking duty, but we also want towny players in the dream threads to do the scumhunting and voting.

[Not Chara]

It's nightless and the available roles are semi-open (if I'm right about afflictions), so people should be open to claiming early on, at least if they have a role that benefits from being public knowledge (like investigatives). Then we can use that information to plan out who should enter which dream and what actions they should take. If people start getting roleblocked or similar, the dreams allow us to narrow down who's doing so. (I'm assuming that you can't effect things outside your dream. Though I bet some PRs allow you to effect things in a deeper dream level, but not above your dream level or laterally).

hm, i'm not sure.
i think claiming or not claiming would be up to the actual role and player discretion.
but i've never played a nightless. surely the scum will have other ways of targeting town roles that will cause trouble for them?

[Infinity 324]

Eh, we don't want scum in the 4th level dream cause then they get to bring scumbuddies back. Hrmm

[Not Chara]

I don't know if we should use the main thread lynch first. The flip will be premier currency in this setup, we should save it for when we need it most.

i was thinking that it might be better to save the main thread lynch, but now i'm not so sure. since we can't even lynch while there are dreams going on, without kicking out everyone, it might be difficult to get a good opportunity to use the lynch.

i would also be worried about apathy from no flips early on. the day one lynch is important.

i think getting information from deeper dreams/limbo will be like playing telephone. it relies entirely on the paraphrasing of players who can see what's going on in the layers below.

[Infinity 324]

not to mention that forcing players onto any wagon is downright impossible. plus, there are roles that get power by going through dreaming levels.
no, i think that the entire game will stretch through all threads. that's what it's built for. we need good town players within the dreams as much as we need them out.

Fair enough

Although forcing people onto a wagon is possible I think. I don't see why people would have strong objections to a certain player being in a dream.

[Leonshade]

It's nightless and the available roles are semi-open (if I'm right about afflictions), so people should be open to claiming early on, at least if they have a role that benefits from being public knowledge (like investigatives). Then we can use that information to plan out who should enter which dream and what actions they should take. If people start getting roleblocked or similar, the dreams allow us to narrow down who's doing so. (I'm assuming that you can't effect things outside your dream. Though I bet some PRs allow you to effect things in a deeper dream level, but not above your dream level or laterally).

hm, i'm not sure.
i think claiming or not claiming would be up to the actual role and player discretion.
but i've never played a nightless. surely the scum will have other ways of targeting town roles that will cause trouble for them?

If the role distribution is purely random, like the opening thread leads us to believe, then it's possible they don't. But I'm not calling for a massclaim, I just think that people have to be willing to claim earlier than usual due to the way the setup and deadline works.

Eh, we don't want scum in the 4th level dream cause then they get to bring scumbuddies back. Hrmm

I mean, if people start soloing and doing obviously scummy things, we just lynch them. This is a mafia game, scum still have to appear towny.

[Infinity 324]

i think getting information from deeper dreams/limbo will be like playing telephone. it relies entirely on the paraphrasing of players who can see what's going on in the layers below.

I thought you could see all lower-level dreams from higher-level dreams

[Not Chara]

i think it sounds very fun. all i can say for certain is there's no obvious strategy here. there are pros and cons to different dream approaches. :>
there's also a lot more incentive for scum to clump together on dream votes. it feels like this will just be something unique that we can't adequately prepare for. we just need to read the dreaming situations as they unfold.

pedit: as i understand it, you can only see the first level down. player in the main thread can't see a second-level dream.

[Not Chara]

actually i think that needs clarification, you might be right.

can you only see the dream spawned from the thread you're in, or can you see all of its subdreams too?

[McMenno]

@mod does the deadline reset only on a mainthread lynch, or also on a dream lynch?

[Infinity 324]

Thing is, the only way we will ever lynch scum that's in the main thread is if we kick the dreams below. And that might kill them, if they've already gone through a kick before. So I think we get quite a few advantages if we send scum into dreams.

[Leonshade]

I don't know if we should use the main thread lynch first. The flip will be premier currency in this setup, we should save it for when we need it most.

i was thinking that it might be better to save the main thread lynch, but now i'm not so sure. since we can't even lynch while there are dreams going on, without kicking out everyone, it might be difficult to get a good opportunity to use the lynch.

i would also be worried about apathy from no flips early on. the day one lynch is important.

i think getting information from deeper dreams/limbo will be like playing telephone. it relies entirely on the paraphrasing of players who can see what's going on in the layers below.

We will need to dream early on anyway, since the initial deadline is only two weeks. Kicking people out of dreams will also be a big hit on Perception.

It's something we'll have to agree on, preferably before the game starts. If we get a good lynch target in the pre-game, we could start the game with the lynch, but I find that unlikely. It's too easy to hide behind all this mechanics discussion.