Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Almost50]

no proof

So? Even you assume I didn't, I am now doing it. So what's your point?

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin why aren't you voting right now?

I'm waiting for NC to respond, among others. I don't like throwing my vote around without weight behind it.

what? you spent the majority of d1 pushing majiffy and then linking him to Ali and Socrates. why do you need anyone's response to vote?

My win con is to find and lynch scum, not go on a witch hunt of whoever was wrong on D1 after I was proven right. I seriously doubt that both Alisae and Socrates are scum, and I have doubts about either leitimately being scum here. It's too easy, just like how easy it was to lynch Maria.

I made plenty of pre-flip associations if/when Majiffy flipped scum, but that doesn't mean they're right. Why would scum buddy each other in the thread? It makes no sense. What does make sense is scum buddied townies that were already conf biased into thinking I was scum. Being wrong about me/Majiffy doesn't make them scum, and the most likely play scum made was to do what Not Chara (and you desperado) did and stay on the sideline of the 1v1 of me/Majiffy.

Smart scum don't buddy in the thread like Socrates/Ali did when they took majiffy's side, and nobody in this game is bad or new. All the players are high quality, which means thinking they'd make the obvious bad scum plays is a fallacy. Majiffy's play was even pretty damn good. I just recognized the tactics used, but they are great tactics regardless.


Also, why are you pushing me to vote? There's 13 days left til deadline, and I want to vote scum over town. Why are you voting ABR? He's pretty damn townie to me.

[Tywin Lannister]

I didn't have to "say it". It was implicitly understood. Even if it wasn't, it still is how I thought and had it noted in my text file anyway.

@ABR/Almost: I don't remember which post, but I'm pretty sure I did read Almost say this on D1. He wanted Maria over anyone, but he did say he'd move to Majiff/Socrates if Maria doesn't go through. I don't remember his exact words though, but that was my understanding of it.

[Tywin Lannister]

My current lynch pool is as follows:

Not Chara
Vifam
Desperado
Socrates
Alisae

Socrates/Alisae being lower on the totem pole due to me thinking they'd not hard defend their scum buddy. More likely is scum stayed on sideline. IMO, NC and Desperado fit the bill here. Zefiend also wanted Majiffy lynched, so I think he's town. Almost/ABR both TR me and kind of ignored Majiffy, but I know Almost was SRing him. ABR was hard defending me when Majiffy made a push. Clumsy SR me and TR Majiffy, so they're a slight SR still, but they got way too close to being lynched for me to believe they're scum.

So this still leaves Not Chara and Desperado. NC was universally TR, left alone by everyone, and would not comment on the 1v1 between me/Majiffy. Rather than even giving any real reads, they said they would ISO us both. Never happened of course, but NC did state I was looking scummy. They weren't voting Maria, but said clearly they'd join if needed. Obviously, it wasn't needed.

Desperado was also on the sidelines, didn't comment much about Majiffy, but said we were both town. Voting ABR here looks weird too, and there's no comment on Majiffy flipping, updated reads, etc. Even questions why I'm not hard pushing Alisae/Socrates yet.

Vifam is just a lurker that gives no content, but never gets SR for it. I don't have anything to add here, because they've not done much. They did sort of question the Maria wagon though.

None have a strong case, but NC/Desperado looks better to me than Ali/Socrates right now, and if I had to pick between them, I'd say Alisae was the scum buddy. He's too universally TR for my taste, and no comment on the Majiffy flip, their hard defense of Majiffy, etc. Even their latest vote looks weird, especially since it gave no reads or reason to vote there. If Ali flipped scum, desperado is town.

Anyway, that's how I see it. NC is my top candidate until they give some thoughts. Will decide after that.

[Alisae]

Then it goes w/o saying that scum got it and you didn't think they'll claim, did you? In other words, your question smells. It seems like posturing for Town cred.

Oh you don't like it? WELL THAT'S TOO FUCKING BAD HUH?

Why rge 4-star in particular?

I gave my 4-star ball to Imperium.

why would you give imperium a ball when they were either scum or a high probability NK target

Because I trusted them? I wasn't thinking of nightkills or anything I just wanted to get rid of something I had no interested in using.

[Alisae]

VOTE: Desperado
LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Annnnnd... Why?

Also, what are your updated reads? Do you still think I'm scum? Still think Majiffy is your strongest TR? Anything to say about your hard defense of him in the 1v1?

I'm mostly sheeping ABR here but also still believe they were coasting D1.

[Tywin Lannister]

Then it goes w/o saying that scum got it and you didn't think they'll claim, did you? In other words, your question smells. It seems like posturing for Town cred.

Oh you don't like it? WELL THAT'S TOO FUCKING BAD HUH?

Why rge 4-star in particular?

I gave my 4-star ball to Imperium.

why would you give imperium a ball when they were either scum or a high probability NK target

Because I trusted them? I wasn't thinking of nightkills or anything I just wanted to get rid of something I had no interested in using.

I mean... You essentially just handed them off to scum then. This makes no sense to pass them, especially with just one. You knew you'd not be NK'd, so why would you do it? It just helped scum.

[Alisae]

I mean... You essentially just handed them off to scum then. This makes no sense to pass them, especially with just one. You knew you'd not be NK'd, so why would you do it? It just helped scum.

I really didn't think when passing the ball, I just wanted to get rid of it and give it to someone I trusted I'm super sorry ;~;
Wait.
I KNEW I wouldn't be NK'd?
How could I possibly KNOW that?
FUCKING JESUS TYWIN!
ARE MY READS REALLY THAT BAD?

[Almost50]

@Alisae: We basically agreed that we should hold on to ONE ball if we ever have it, and we only pass "what's more than one". THIS is the Zefiend argument I had repeatedly stated was even better than my own and the reason why TR him.

Now, hypothetically speaking: Let's assume Imperium already started with a ball. Had you held on to yours then if they OR you get NK'd; Scum would collect ONE ball. You passing yours (which was the only one I presume) meant they get none if they NK you and TWO if they NK Imperium.

Now, the N1 NK doesn't necessarily relate to reads and how good/bad they are. N1 NKs either target the most Town read player, the most skilled player, or the one scum suspect is a PR. (Most TR'd = hard to lynch, most skilled = could put 2 & 2 together with some flips, and a PR could return a guilty). Now Scum are going to hunt the Vig, most probably.

Now you admitted you weren't thinking when you passed the ball. You obviously didn't think when you asked who got it now either. SO DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE RESPOND TO ME WITH GARBAGE LIKE "Oh you don't like it? WELL THAT'S TOO FUCKING BAD HUH?". You don't want me riding your sorry ass.. trust me. One more response like that and I AM "going to be" rude to you. This time I'm being NICE.

[Alisae]

Yeah almost I forgot that was what we were supposed to be doing with the balls tbh I just wanted to get rid of it and give it to a townread.
This also says that scum has it over the vig meaning majiffy didn't preform the kill?

[Alisae]

idunno why I care anymore tbh I made a bad play.
I admit it.

[Almost50]

OK, fair enough. Also that was a good point about the Vig. "Maybe" they have the balls if Majiffy was the one who shot Imperium. If they had them though, I'm sure the're going to distribute them on their TRs so nobody would have a bulk of them (it would be 2 at max)

[Tywin Lannister]

I mean... You essentially just handed them off to scum then. This makes no sense to pass them, especially with just one. You knew you'd not be NK'd, so why would you do it? It just helped scum.

I really didn't think when passing the ball, I just wanted to get rid of it and give it to someone I trusted I'm super sorry ;~;
Wait.
I KNEW I wouldn't be NK'd?
How could I possibly KNOW that?
FUCKING JESUS TYWIN!
ARE MY READS REALLY THAT BAD?

Relax. It was just my assumption. I didn't think I'd be NK'd either, mainly because I was a mislynch candidate if Majiffy wasn't NK'd. Just based on who claimed what and which players looked the most town, I figured only a select few players would be NK targets. It is what it is, not based on your reads or anything.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Almost: do you think it likely that Socrates would attach himself to his scum buddy majiffy's hip, or is it more likely that scum stayed away from them entirely and let town go through with the Maria mislynch? Socrates fits the first option. Desp/NC fit the second. Do you remember any games where scum buddied this hard on D1? I can't, because it's usually a bad move. That's how you caught Nero last game, but he wasn't so strongly attached to his buddies as Socrates possibly was here. It just looks like a red herring to me.

@Desperado; why do you think ABR is scum? Anything to add?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I mean... You essentially just handed them off to scum then. This makes no sense to pass them, especially with just one. You knew you'd not be NK'd, so why would you do it? It just helped scum.

I really didn't think when passing the ball, I just wanted to get rid of it and give it to someone I trusted I'm super sorry ;~;
Wait.
I KNEW I wouldn't be NK'd?
How could I possibly KNOW that?
FUCKING JESUS TYWIN!
ARE MY READS REALLY THAT BAD?

Let's be real here. You weren't getting NK'd lol

[Alisae]

I mean... You essentially just handed them off to scum then. This makes no sense to pass them, especially with just one. You knew you'd not be NK'd, so why would you do it? It just helped scum.

I really didn't think when passing the ball, I just wanted to get rid of it and give it to someone I trusted I'm super sorry ;~;
Wait.
I KNEW I wouldn't be NK'd?
How could I possibly KNOW that?
FUCKING JESUS TYWIN!
ARE MY READS REALLY THAT BAD?

Let's be real here. You weren't getting NK'd lol

ikr I'm so bad at this game.

[Clumsy Phoenix]

Shazhead here catching up, Tywin I don't know if it's because you're now pretty obvtown, because you're not just shouting back and forth with us or Majiffy, or because you're not posting walls, but I'm reading your posts and they make sense and everything.

[Almost50]

@Tywin: I'm working on figuring things out. I'd appreciate your patience before I respond.

@Socrates: Since you are still around, would you care to explain what about "this specific vote count and the pages leading up to it" you wanted us to remember?

"I would have been here sooner but I was too busy plowing your mother!"

Vote Count 1.03

MariaR

(0/7)

-

Clumsy Phoenix

(0/7)

-

Imperium

(0/7)

-

Majiffy

(1/7)

- Not Chara

Almost50

(3/7)

- ɀefiend, Albert B. Rampage, Majiffy

Not Chara

(3/7)

- Socrates, Imperium, Alisae

Tywin Lannister

(0/7)

-

Alisae

(1/7)

- Tywin Lannister

Vifam

(0/7)

-

ɀefiend

(0/7)

-

Desperado

(0/7)

-

Albert B. Rampage

(3/7)

- MariaR, Desperado, Vifam

Socrates

(0/7)

-

Not Voting:

Clumsy Phoenix, Almost50

Notes:

- Trying out the new format. Let me know your thoughts[/color]

(expired on 2017-04-04 12:55:00) until the end of Day One.
With thirteen alive, it takes seven to lynch.

Fascinating. Remember this specific vote count and the pages leading up to it tomorrow if I'm no longer around.

mod: can the mafia pass balls when they are tied for leading wagon?

[Clumsy Phoenix]

Also Socrates, while you're writing up your argument for a mass claim (which I want to see despite us having claimed), what is your read on our slot?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Shazhead here catching up, Tywin I don't know if it's because you're now pretty obvtown, because you're not just shouting back and forth with us or Majiffy, or because you're not posting walls, but I'm reading your posts and they make sense and everything.

Scum grovelling to escape execution

[Almost50]

@Tywin: I skimmed the ISO'd of the Socrates, Desperado and NC, and I have confidence in NC being Town. Tone, trying to sort me early, and explicitly asking for the hammer vote all point to Town!NC. Like, I can't see Scum!NC being bold enough to say "I want hammer" in a game where hammer = acquiring a ball.

I can't find anything on Desperado to make me confident on his alignment either way. I don't even remember why I Town read him yesterday.

Socrates I have a problem with his tine and I get the feeling he's being obscure on purpose, but then he now asks for a massclaim. I can wait for him to clarify and I may change my mind afterwards, but for now let's just say I SR him based on the tone of his posts more than anything else.

And yes, I can see scum defending their mastermind that blatantly. Nobody expected Majiffy will flip so soon anyway since nobody was listening to you, and they certainly had no idea there was a Vigilante in the game, so why wouldn't they? Now, let's look at it from the opposite direction: What do you think of the way Majiffy interacted with Socrates? Do you think it's mire likely to come from (Confirmed Scum) Majiffy towards Town!Socrates or Scum-buddy!Socrates?

[Desperado]

Tywin why aren't you voting right now?

I'm waiting for NC to respond, among others. I don't like throwing my vote around without weight behind it.

what? you spent the majority of d1 pushing majiffy and then linking him to Ali and Socrates. why do you need anyone's response to vote?

My win con is to find and lynch scum, not go on a witch hunt of whoever was wrong on D1 after I was proven right. I seriously doubt that both Alisae and Socrates are scum, and I have doubts about either leitimately being scum here. It's too easy, just like how easy it was to lynch Maria.

I made plenty of pre-flip associations if/when Majiffy flipped scum, but that doesn't mean they're right. Why would scum buddy each other in the thread? It makes no sense. What does make sense is scum buddied townies that were already conf biased into thinking I was scum. Being wrong about me/Majiffy doesn't make them scum, and the most likely play scum made was to do what Not Chara (and you desperado) did and stay on the sideline of the 1v1 of me/Majiffy.

Smart scum don't buddy in the thread like Socrates/Ali did when they took majiffy's side, and nobody in this game is bad or new. All the players are high quality, which means thinking they'd make the obvious bad scum plays is a fallacy. Majiffy's play was even pretty damn good. I just recognized the tactics used, but they are great tactics regardless.


Also, why are you pushing me to vote? There's 13 days left til deadline, and I want to vote scum over town. Why are you voting ABR? He's pretty damn townie to me.

wtf???

you made plenty of accusations against Ali and Socrates yesterday for openly buddying majiffy. now you're saying scum wouldn't buddy that openly in thread?

[Desperado]

and me pressuring you to vote someone has nothing to do with the deadline and everything to do with your entire d1 play revolving around majiffy flipping scum, then majiffy flipping scum and you not following through on any of that

[Socrates]

Okay I see I have a lot of questions to get to, but first:

Spoiler: The Benefits of Massclaim

First of all, remember that the standard for this argument is not that we can solve the entire game by massclaiming, but merely that a massclaim will improve the town's position overall. This is something a lot of Massclaim naysayers forget.

The core principal here goes back to something I posted early on day 1:

I find

it*

annoying that people think about the mechanics only in terms of how they can be used directly, not in terms of how they can be a vector for scumhunting. Scum can do a lot, but they can do very little without leaving a paper trail if we approach it correctly. I will have more to say on this day 2.

The short version of the argument is that by massclaiming early, scum are forced to lock themselves into a specific narrative early and then have to make it stick throughout the full course of the game. When you wait for Lylo to massclaim, scum only have to tailor their claims to look good for only one or two day phases and one night phase.

They have to do this, while at the same time avoiding risk of early counter-claims (Town takes this trade this early every time) and investigative roles like trackers, watchers, and rolecops.

Further, the scum are already down a man, so they absolutely, positively

cannot

afford to fuck up on this massclaim, and I am fairly confident we will be able to force scum to participate in the massclaim fairly early, so they are unlikely to try anything fancy and just stick to their safe, mod-provided fakeclaims.

Secondly, while it is true that scum get to direct their night game towards their win condition, remember a disruption in the town's planned night actions are

themselves a vector through which the town can hunt the scum.

Thirdly, an early massclaim can disrupt the mafia's daygame through the inverse of the first point: A weakly positioned townie (like, say, me) that the mafia were keeping in their back pocket for a potential mislynch claims power. Since the townie isn't doing it at L-1, when that townie can be easily dismissed as fakeclaiming and then hammered, this presents a dilemma for the scum. The longer the townie is left alive, the more likely it is for their claim to be demonstrated to be true through some form or fashion, even if it's just through it matching their perspective in the daygame.

This is the gist of the generalized argument for an early massclaim, as I understand it. I am not an expert on this matter, and the Pie_Is_Good School of Massclaiming was something I only got to hear about, never see in action for myself.

Note that this argument is proportionally stronger the more power roles there are in the game.

Now, to the second point:

[spoiler="The Relevancy Of My Role]Okay, enough beating around the bush, I said I was going to go first anyway and any competent scumteam will have already have a pretty good idea of what my role is. In fact, they should have known for quite some time, since I thoughtlessly soft-claimed my power way back on page 2:

(in response to Almost)

So what your saying is: write off the dragon ball mechanic and never let it happen.

It occurs to me that The Thing I Can Do is obvious enough that the mod had to have anticipated it. I need to reread the mechanics real quick.

I felt real stupid after I posted this, and part of the reason I am being so open is that I figured I couldn't make things any worse.

I am a doctor. I want the vig to claim so that I can protect him, and by coordinating with him like this, avoid something silly like me and the vig targeting the same person.

Because of the earlier stated reasons, scum would have to be suicidal to try to counter-claim the vig and we will be able to trust the claim.

And before you ask, I will not explain what That Thing I Can Do was just yet.[/spoiler]

Also,

Spoiler: Super Secret Bonus Reason

Anyone familiar with the source material knows that there is a particular character that would perfectly fit the role of a Serial Killer.

But optimal play is for townies to buddy up to the SK

anyway

until the mafia is dead, so keep this a secret! This is just between you and me. Tell no one!

There are potential weaknesses here, and perhaps I should have taken a different approach, but it's too late now and this the best version of the argument that I can present.

Let's see how much of this anyone actually reads.

[Socrates]

I'll respond to standing queries in a bit. I need a break.