Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Tywin Lannister]

and me pressuring you to vote someone has nothing to do with the deadline and everything to do with your entire d1 play revolving around majiffy flipping scum, then majiffy flipping scum and you not following through on any of that

He did flip scum, and my entire D1 play was to get him to flip. The things after that aren't so solid. I was almost certain of Majiffy being scum, but I don't have the same certainty with anyone else. Not yet anyways. I was tunneled on Majiffy, and even though others accused me of tunneling D1, I was confident I was tunneling scum. Idk about anyone else. We may need to flip Socrates no matter what, but I need to reread and see what exactly happened.

You still haven't answered my question about why you're voting ABR or if you have anything else to add? Your posts look like you're either trying to shade me specifically, or you're hoping to push me in a direction that you aren't taking yourself. What's the deal with that? Why are you worried about if I follow through with my pre-flip associations or not after my original SR proved to be correct? Am I not allowed to reevaluate after every flip? I'm curious why you haven't. What exactly make you think ABR is scum?

[Tywin Lannister]

Just read Socrates' posts. I'm smh right now at the claim, since I come from the thought that nobody with that role should absolutely ever claim, and I also dislike mass claims as a whole, but if others agree, I'm fine with it. Scum already have their top NK target now, and if Socrates somehow survived a night or two, he's certainly scum. He know this so wouldn't claim Doc if he was scum. Even a single night not being NK'd now looks insanely suspicious.

So honestly Socrates, what you did was paint a target on your back no matter if you told the truth or not. Scum can never leave a doc alive, so you're toast tonight. If you aren't NK'd it almost certainly means you fake claimed. So you're lynched tomorrow. Regardless, you're now toast.

That being said, I still want Desp or NC, and since Almost says NC is super town, Desp is my next choice.

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates: here's what you didn't think about.

1. You claimed doc so hello, goodbye, today is your last day alive.

2. Tomorrow night, if everyone mass claims, vigi is toast. Hello, goodbye vigi.

3. Next night.. Any other PRs, peace out you're dead.

4. It's not a shit ton of VT claims and no way to CC. No way to stop an NK. No way to kill scum outside of a lynch, which as we've already seen from D1, is far more likely to be on town than ever land on scum.

5. Lylo happens with two of the least townie players with the worst reads, and 1-2 scum with all the power. Add in dragon balls and that's game over folks.

6. Mass claims are always bad without knowing the setup.

[Tywin Lannister]

EBWOP: 4. It's now**

[Tywin Lannister]

Anyway, Socrates can't be lynched now, so move along folks. If he survives the night, then it gets suspicious, but scum would have to be huge gamblers to leave a doc alive. Could also be Mafia doc, but seriously, after a night phase or two where Socrates isn't NK,d, he gets the rope and flips scum. So even if anyone SRs him now, wait a day or two and go for him then if he isn't NK'd. Scum can't ever leave a doc alive and win, so he's toast.

[Not Chara]

i'm awake now, just skimmed up.

there's no need for the vigilante to claim here. like Tywin said, they'll just be killed the next night. Socrates being outed, if town, already protects the vigilante enough.
i'm stuck between that and the suspiciousness of Socrates's claim being enough to protect them from being killed, meaning the vigilante

should

claim to be protected. i don't know. i'm not happy with the claim.

i spent the night ISOing Majiffy and Tywin. suppose it doesn't really matter now. there's just no way Tywin is scum here.

[Not Chara]

Socrates, i fail to see any correlation between your "Thing I Can Do" post and your doctor place. the post that you said outed yourself so badly looks like something related to the dragonballs, not to being a doctor.

[Not Chara]

*doctor claim.

[Socrates]

Oh yes, yes, yes, I am aggressively throwing myself on the chopping block here.

But I am a very self-sacrifice oriented player, and if I can guarentee the Vig's safety tonight, and then he gets to shoot again tomorrow, we ensure 4 pro-town kills in two days and will be down to endgame anyway. A worthwhile use of my role in my view. (I also suck at playing doc.)

[Socrates]

Socrates, i fail to see any correlation between your "Thing I Can Do" post and your doctor place. the post that you said outed yourself so badly looks like something related to the dragonballs, not to being a doctor.

I'd rather explain after massclaim, but think about it: what can a doctor do WITH the dragonball mechanic?

[Socrates]

@Tywin: I'm working on figuring things out. I'd appreciate your patience before I respond.

@Socrates: Since you are still around, would you care to explain what about "this specific vote count and the pages leading up to it" you wanted us to remember?

Hey, thanks for reminding me about that! My suspicion at the time was that we had just seen (or were about to see) our first dragonball handoff between the scum.

I'll need to review that.

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates, i fail to see any correlation between your "Thing I Can Do" post and your doctor place. the post that you said outed yourself so badly looks like something related to the dragonballs, not to being a doctor.

This is how I read it too, and I only read it after Socrates brought it up. I think it's a case of overthinking and being self critical. I certainly wouldn't have remembered it without Socrates bringing it up, and if scum had remembered, then he'd have been NKd already.

[Not Chara]

Oh yes, yes, yes, I am aggressively throwing myself on the chopping block here.

But I am a very self-sacrifice oriented player, and if I can guarentee the Vig's safety tonight, and then he gets to shoot again tomorrow, we ensure 4 pro-town kills in two days and will be down to endgame anyway. A worthwhile use of my role in my view. (I also suck at playing doc.)

and if the scumteam has a roleblocker?

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates, the vigi shouldn't claim now that the doc did. There's still a chance you're scum and fake claiming doc to sacrifice yourself to out the vigi to scum.

The optimal move for the vigi is to now stay silent and let you get NK'd. You're now the top target if your claim is true. If it isn't true, then vigi claiming only helps scum here. There's in no way any cause for vigi to claim now. If you're really a town doc, then you're death tonight saves the vigi from a random NK. If you lied, then you'll flip scum in tomorrow's lynch, and your mass claim hope was a shot in the dark gamble to hopefully out the town PRs.

No, I don't think the vigi should say a word. Can you argue differently? If you're really the doc, then vigi claiming only protects him for ONE night. If he doesn't claim, then you'll die and still protect him for one night. Same thing. Big difference for towns chances.

Vigi: don't claim

[Not Chara]

i've been thinking about Clumsy's hammer. i'm not sure if the scum would snipe the hammer like that, in a way that really makes it seem that they did it without thinking. there's nothing to prompt the scum to be so nervous around the hammer when i said i would take it. and they would know Maria is town and thus probably not lying about her claim not to have a dragonball.
i'm considering that if could have been done precisely to look genuine, but it was so sudden and in direct response to my asking for the hammer that i'm thinking that unlikely. not to mention it doesn't fit at all with the scum narrative of that hydra being cautious.

[Socrates]

Also Socrates, while you're writing up your argument for a mass claim (which I want to see despite us having claimed), what is your read on our slot?

I am currently viewing you with an intense, stress inducing paranoia.

What you did is

exactly

what I would have theoretically advised you to do if you are scum, but it's also

exactly

the kind of thing I like doing myself as a townie.

I forgot to mention this as I was claiming: The Six Star dragon ball mysteriously arrived in my mail this morning.

[Not Chara]

Socrates: did you say who you protected night 1?

[Socrates]

Socrates, the vigi shouldn't claim now that the doc did. There's still a chance you're scum and fake claiming doc to sacrifice yourself to out the vigi to scum.

The optimal move for the vigi is to now stay silent and let you get NK'd. You're now the top target if your claim is true. If it isn't true, then vigi claiming only helps scum here. There's in no way any cause for vigi to claim now. If you're really a town doc, then you're death tonight saves the vigi from a random NK. If you lied, then you'll flip scum in tomorrow's lynch, and your mass claim hope was a shot in the dark gamble to hopefully out the town PRs.

No, I don't think the vigi should say a word. Can you argue differently? If you're really the doc, then vigi claiming only protects him for ONE night. If he doesn't claim, then you'll die and still protect him for one night. Same thing. Big difference for towns chances.

Vigi: don't claim

Vigi should only claim if we go for the full massclaim.

If we don't do the full massclaim, then the vigi should absolutely not claim.

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates' last few posts all reek of role fishing. He may legit be one who likes to sacrifice himself, but that may be for scum over town. Scum gain WAAAY more in a mass claim (with their fake claim roles to boot) over anything town gets. Town gets a doc to protect for a single night, assuming scum don't have a roleblocker and he's even telling the truth. Scum get all the town PRs for no legitimate reason at all. Essentially, it's a bad, bad move for town to claim here.

NC pointing that out gives them TCred in my view. I didn't think about it that way until they mentioned it. I also like this Clumsy argument tbh. I didn't think about the hammer snipe either. This is why I wanted NC to post before I voted. Desperado takes my top scum spot now.

[Socrates]

Socrates: did you say who you protected night 1?

Sorry, no. I forgot.

I protected Albert.

I also forgot to claim my role's flavor.

I am Dende, A character I had complely forgotten about, and then went "Oh right! The kid Namekian with the healing powers!"

[Not Chara]

Vigi should only claim if we go for the full massclaim.

If we don't do the full massclaim, then the vigi should absolutely not claim.

i don't understand this.

why did you claim before even making sure the town wanted to massclaim? your claim only makes sense to protect the vig, even in a misguided sense. now you're saying the vig should only claim if we all agree.

that isn't to mention that in a massclaim situation, the vig should absolutely claim VT. there are surely more and obfuscating their identity would just be a better idea.

[Not Chara]

Socrates, i won't ask why you chose Albert because it's frankly obvious that he was a major townread.
can you go into more detail as to why that is?

[Socrates]

Socrates' last few posts all reek of role fishing. He may legit be one who likes to sacrifice himself, but that may be for scum over town. Scum gain WAAAY more in a mass claim (with their fake claim roles to boot) over anything town gets. Town gets a doc to protect for a single night, assuming scum don't have a roleblocker and he's even telling the truth. Scum get all the town PRs for no legitimate reason at all. Essentially, it's a bad, bad move for town to claim here.

NC pointing that out gives them TCred in my view. I didn't think about it that way until they mentioned it. I also like this Clumsy argument tbh. I didn't think about the hammer snipe either. This is why I wanted NC to post before I voted. Desperado takes my top scum spot now.

*sigh*

At least acknowledge the argument for why town benefits from massclaiming, even if you disagree with it.

[Not Chara]

Also Socrates, while you're writing up your argument for a mass claim (which I want to see despite us having claimed), what is your read on our slot?

I am currently viewing you with an intense, stress inducing paranoia.

What you did is

exactly

what I would have theoretically advised you to do if you are scum, but it's also

exactly

the kind of thing I like doing myself as a townie.

I forgot to mention this as I was claiming: The Six Star dragon ball mysteriously arrived in my mail this morning.

might as well answer this too.
are you referring to asking for a read on one's slot, or is it something else you're talking about?

[Tywin Lannister]

Frankly, this entire mass claim argument borders on helping scum over town too. Mass claims shouldn't be done by a town doc claiming first. Legitimately, all a mass claim does is narrow everything down the the VTs, which are almost certainly the majority of players. Scum get the PR targets handed to them. Town get... A vigi to stay alive for one night? That's equal to a single kill. It makes absolutely no sense. Doc protecting doesn't work when the doc dies tonight. Vigi being outted only works when the doc isn't, and mass claims only work within known set ups or during desperate situations like mylo. It's... D2... With one scum down.