Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Socrates]

What ho!

I understand this to be a sequel game? Do I need to read the previous one? (I'd rather not if I don't have to)

[Socrates]

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Almost: i don't know! and after i joined to play with you... it brings a tear to my eye.

Oh, I'm sorry

But it's probably bc the last 2 Kuroi games we were in as a hydra, so I subconsciously thought we were playing with the hydra account.

But now I do have a thought: This dragonballs thing makes the game potentially very swingy. I think we all should keep passing them around if we get more than one just to prevent their potential accumulation with scum. Like, it should be ok for any one player to keep only ONE dragon ball at a time. Thoughts?

So what your saying is: write off the dragon ball mechanic and never let it happen.

It occurs to me that The Thing I Can Do is obvious enough that the mod had to have anticipated it. I need to reread the mechanics real quick.

[Socrates]

Dragon balls are individually identifiable. Interesting.

[Socrates]

Socrates, it is a sequel game and the previous one isn't required reading.

Vote: MariaR

I was asking in the sense of whether the mechanics are repeated and if there is insight to be gained about how to handle said mechanics.

[Socrates]

oh and Kuroi: very interesting mechanic with the Dragonballs. i look forward to sabotaging all attempts to gather seven of them.

Why?

[Socrates]

Scum like to tell townies not to use unique game mechanics, thinking that they will look protown by advocating caution, but really all they do is betray their own greed.

You didn't actively call it scummy to collect dragon balls, so it's not the full tell, but this is a good starting place.

VOTE: not chara

[Socrates]

Scum like to tell townies not to use unique game mechanics, thinking that they will look protown by advocating caution, but really all they do is betray their own greed.

You didn't actively call it scummy to collect dragon balls, so it's not the full tell, but this is a good starting place.

VOTE: not chara

I said it first, so why NC and not me?

Well no, nc said they were going to actively sabotage collecting dragons balls on the first page.

Two, your suggestion did earn a squint from me. Maybe you failed to notice. But my feelings on you re:Tywin mirror Nacho's, whereas NC only has this.

I find annoying that people think about the mechanics only in terms of how they can be used directly, not in terms of how they can be a vector for scumhunting. Scum can do a lot, but they can do very little without leaving a paper trail if we approach it correctly. I will have more to say on this day 2.

[Socrates]

hmmmmmmm...
VOTE: Socrates

I would really like you to explain the scum motivation behind saying this on page 1:

oh and Kuroi: very interesting mechanic with the Dragonballs. i look forward to sabotaging all attempts to gather seven of them.

Because I'm not seeing it.

I already did. Its quoted in the post directly above yours.

[Socrates]

I need to learn how to read. Give me a second.
/me takes a second.
Kay heres the thing. I don't think scum!NC gets anything out of writing that post. Granted town!NC gets nothing out of it either. Like that post seems really NAI to me. Especially considering it's page 1, we're still in RVS, so I don't really see how they're trying to prevent scumhunting from happening on page 1?
I feel like if anything scum are most likely to jump on that post rather then town.

You'll note that I didn't immediately jump on her, but asked her to elaborate. If she said it was just a first page joke, I would have shrugged and let it go, but she didn't and went with the classic "scum can manipulate this mechanic so we shouldn't use it" argument that scum themselves love to make. They love to make the same argument about masslcaims and such, too.

As I said, it wasnt the full tell, because they didn't check the final checkbox of calling it outright scummy, but I feel better about this vote than anywhere else at this moment.

I've caught scum this way before.

[Socrates]

Any simplistic wand-waving ball policy proposal the kind of which Almost50 made is almost assuredly made by scum.

Should I be voting him instead of NC?

[Socrates]

Re: post in question: Not necessarily. It would be easy rhetorical food for him to force a scumread on Tywin, but he chose to back off and look elsewhere. That's what makes it seem genuine.

Incidentally,

vote count

?

[Socrates]

Any simplistic wand-waving ball policy proposal the kind of which Almost50 made is almost assuredly made by scum.

Should I be voting him instead of NC?

Yes, I'm moderately confident that he is scum.

Cool. I still want a vote count.

I see where you're coming from, do you see where I'm coming from? or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[Socrates]

"I would have been here sooner but I was too busy plowing your mother!"

Vote Count 1.03

MariaR

(0/7)

-

Clumsy Phoenix

(0/7)

-

Imperium

(0/7)

-

Majiffy

(1/7)

- Not Chara

Almost50

(3/7)

- ɀefiend, Albert B. Rampage, Majiffy

Not Chara

(3/7)

- Socrates, Imperium, Alisae

Tywin Lannister

(0/7)

-

Alisae

(1/7)

- Tywin Lannister

Vifam

(0/7)

-

ɀefiend

(0/7)

-

Desperado

(0/7)

-

Albert B. Rampage

(3/7)

- MariaR, Desperado, Vifam

Socrates

(0/7)

-

Not Voting:

Clumsy Phoenix, Almost50

Notes:

- Trying out the new format. Let me know your thoughts[/color]

(expired on 2017-04-04 12:55:00) until the end of Day One.
With thirteen alive, it takes seven to lynch.

Fascinating. Remember this specific vote count and the pages leading up to it tomorrow if I'm no longer around.

mod: can the mafia pass balls when they are tied for leading wagon?

[Socrates]

I was going to say something else, but I forgot.

The ABR wagon almost certainly has scum on it.

[Socrates]

Imperium, how do you feel about Almost popping up to say some stuff to Vifram on the very page people were talking about wagoning him without any acknowledgement ? Unless I missed a post.

[Socrates]

Scum will be able to transfer dragonballs among themselves at any time, with the exception of if they are the leading wagon.

You misunderstand the question. I'm asking if they can still do it in the case of a tie.

[Socrates]

I was going to say something else, but I forgot.

The ABR wagon almost certainly has scum on it.

Why the ABR wagon compared to the other ones?

Why does the ABR wagon exist?

[Socrates]

Oh should I? When not one member of the wagon has said word one about why he is scum?

I am leading the NC wagon, ISO me and see why.
ABR asserted why he is voting Almost, as has Majiffy. I must admit that Zefeind almost seems like he's stalling, tbh.

There is a clear contrast here.

[Socrates]

Oh should I? When not one member of the wagon has said word one about why he is scum?

I am leading the NC wagon, ISO me and see why.
ABR asserted why he is voting Almost, as has Majiffy. I must admit that Zefeind almost seems like he's stalling, tbh.

There is a clear contrast here.

2 of those votes on ABR are RVS votes the other is naked. Your assessment is strange. I would think you would know this if you were reading.

You haven't tweaked to the reason why I am looking for signs of wagon manipulation. That's fine, it just makes your condescension all the more toothless.

[Socrates]

I'll catch up on this game tomorrow.

[Socrates]

Alisae, CP said multiple times in his opening that he knew he was going to be scumread, and here we are.

You implied you don't think he's that hard to read. How do you feel about This?

[Socrates]

Okay, I lied, I'm not sleeping anytime soon, so I might as well catch up.

alright, scratch what i said earlier.
i'm townreading the intent of 121, but i dislike that Socrates's push on me so far is based on this tell that they've said twice isn't complete because i haven't scumread anyone for the dragonballs, just given my opinion.
for one, zefiend has come to exactly the same conclusion, and Socrates hasn't mentioned it. they've caught scum this way before, but 2/3 players with the same opinion haven't even been spoken to. if there was real concern, why isn't the same care being taken? Socrates only mentions Almost after he brings up this exact problem.
and reading 121 again, there's the main issue. Almost is fine because Socrate's agrees that Almost's reasoning is towny. therefore, the mechanics tell isn't that important. zefiend gets a side-eye for stalling in 217, but no mention of the mechanics tell. the reply to Almost sounds like a retroactive excuse.
so in the end it just looks like my post caught Socrates's attention as something they could push safely, instead of the tell being the cause.

Let me put it this way:

Player A does something you consider to be moderately scummy.

Player B does something you consider to be moderately scummy and something you consider to be moderately towny.

Who do you vote?

And no, I did NOT bring up Almost only after he mentioned it. As I told HIM, I did in fact voice issue with his suggestion. And you are ignoring the part where I was openly discussing joining the Almost wagon.

As for Zefiend, Yeah, the mechanics tell ties into the stalling. That's one of the things he seemed to be stalling with. I don't like him. I suppose I should have made that more clear.

I also haven't been beating this drum too hard because I had been specifically waiting for you to respond.

I do find your act of talking yourself from a townread into a scumread on me interesting. It's precisely one of those little things I myself like to do as scum precisely because I know it tends to draw townreads from other players, so whenever I see this kind of stuff I have to ask myself if it's theater. But that kind of sophisticated scumplay doesn't fit well with committing such a short-sided tell.

Oh, and I do want to see Imperium respond to you, if they didn't.

[Socrates]

Socrates, do you have any experience with this player list?

This is my third game back after a 6 year absence. (Secret: this wasn't my first account, though)

I can't remember if I ever played with Nacho or Albert back in the day, but I do recognize their names and I read a lot of games I didn't play in back in those days.

That said, my first game back was with Nacho, so I do have experience with him.

[Socrates]

Why was this never followed up on? This question was asked and (unless I'm missing a post), never answered nor re-asked.

Oh, I noticed, and I was hoping he would say something, but his next post (unless

I

missed a post) is just now, jumping on you.

I would still like him to answer, though I honestly don't expect much.

[Socrates]

MariaR reminds me of UncertainKitten. My intuition is that Scum!Maria would only condescend to me the way she did if she knew I was on the wrong trail, so I'd be surprised if she was scum WITH Not Chara.

[Socrates]

Similarly, I'm town-reading Alisae, but scum!him would never respond to my case on NC the way he did if it was on a scumbuddy.

[Socrates]

My eyes instinctively glaze over at Tywin's posts. I need to correct that.

[Socrates]

I had this whole thing written about Desperado and then double checked the vote count and realized I had confused Tywin's vote on clumsy as being from Desperado. Ugh

His scumread on me is still nonsense, though.

Question to players that would know: Is NotChara typically a low volume poster?

[Socrates]

Liked the rest of the post, don't understand what you're saying with this point.
Saying that get scumread frequently is them trying too hard to pretend to be town...?

tbh, looking back at it, I really do not know what I was trying to accomplish with that.

Are you still happy with your vote on them?

[Socrates]

Imperium, how do you feel about Almost popping up to say some stuff to Vifram on the very page people were talking about wagoning him without any acknowledgement ? Unless I missed a post.

I didn't think anything of it in that regards. Why was he supposed to mention it before talking to Vifam?

I thought the post to vifam was a bit weird, but there are several awkward posters this game and it reads like a rather awkward stern warning, which is whatever, but I don't know why he had to acknowledge others talking about him.

It's not about before or after, it's that he just flatly ignored people talking about voting him while posting about other things. It struck me as weird. It might be his style to not bother addressing that kind of stuff, though.

[Socrates]

Question to players that would know: Is NotChara typically a low volume poster?

As of late, YES. Unpredictable schedule I suppose or something like that.

Kay. I really want to get more out of them, but I don't want to jump to the conclusion that they are avoiding the thread.

[Socrates]

P-edit: Socrates: if I was scum, that would be a good thing, but since I'm not, it's bad. I can try to keep posts short, but at least pretend to read the non-wall posts.

I know. It's my fault, not yours. Our reads have seemingly no overlap, yet I don't see much of a scum motivation to your posting, so my focus keeps drifting elsewhere. and if I didn't make conscious note of it, I would just keep ignoring you.

For example, Sharizo's pity party entrance is indeed lame, as Alisae put it, but it's the kind of thing I see from bad townies more than I see from scum, and Alisae more or less confirmed that it wasn't totally out of character for them.

This doesn't add up to a town read, mind you, and I see other townies fall for that red herring enough that I don't really question you jumping on him for it.

(If anything, that behavior does deserve a good slap because no player of any alignment has any business being so defeatist.)

[Socrates]

His scumread on me is still nonsense, though.

wrong answer

Our assessment of Almost differed purely on how difficult we felt it would be to fake.

Not agreeing with my case on NC isn't a good reason to scum read me.

Your last point is some links without any grounding whatsoever.

A nonsense read.

[Socrates]

Liked the rest of the post, don't understand what you're saying with this point.
Saying that get scumread frequently is them trying too hard to pretend to be town...?

tbh, looking back at it, I really do not know what I was trying to accomplish with that.

Are you still happy with your vote on them?

There was other stuff I pointed out in that post plus my interactions with them so I'm happy with it, but I could always join you back on NC.

Could you elaborate on what parts of your direct interactions with him furthered your scumread? Or just link me to the correct post, I probably just missed it.

[Socrates]

unvote
vote: socrates

Huff and Puff.

But is it fake?

[Socrates]

MariaR reminds me of UncertainKitten. My intuition is that Scum!Maria would only condescend to me the way she did if she knew I was on the wrong trail, so I'd be surprised if she was scum WITH Not Chara.

I don't disagree with your intuition, but I'm not sure what you're talking about wrt the condescension itself.

When I pointed out that the ABR wagon had no substance to it and she implied the other wagons were bad and the ABR votes were just RVS and I'm clearly not reading the thread.

[Socrates]

there's no huff and puff

what reaction did you expect a handwave and discredit to engender?

Further elaboration.

Or nothing, if it wasn't actually an important read to you.

But it seemingly is, and you seem insulted that I cared little.

Huff and Puff.

[Socrates]

yup

Albert, what do you think of me?

D-Do you like me, Senpai?

[Socrates]

Socrates what do you make of NC's latests posts?

I like that they stepped back from looking at me specifically and looked at the followers on the wagon, something I had been watching for myself and exactly what they should be doing as town. Imperium was not particularly clear on why they voted NC in the first place, and I don't believe ever specified how they felt about my own read of NC, so this interaction between the two was what I was hoping to see.

I had been lingering on NC for as long as I had because I wanted to ensure they were not just waiting for me to get distracted by a shiny object and go away, and getting independent confirmation that their activity level was not unusual went a long way towards alleviating that particular concern.

My suspicion will linger, but I'm now happy to move on to my next place of interest.

[Socrates]

VOTE: mariaR

She has been flatly dismissive of most of this game, jumped on the easiest vote possible, and has been active lurking with panache.

And this post:

*eats popcorn* this is getting good

reads to me as "townie slap fight! Wheeeeeeee!"

[Socrates]

I'm bored

Allow me to entertain you.

[Socrates]

Good scumplay is super fucking boring, for sure.

[Socrates]

(Input self meta on how I love being scum and hate being town wifom here)

Oh, no need to shy away from this, it's the crux of my concern here.

What is it that you enjoy about playing scum?
Because I put myself in the shoes of a hypothetical Scum!Maria, and I see someone with nothing to do.

You've got all these townies with their back and forths and their sorting reads and it's all so droll, but they are all just walking around in circles sniffing each others asses and haven't even really looked your way. But you have no reason to challenge the status quo, so you find yourself just sitting there.

Bored.

[Socrates]

But what do you do when the town is ignoring you? Do you like to go "tee hee I'm going see how far I can push it before these stupid fucks catch on!"?

A lot of your posting feels like a cry for attention, to be honest.

As far as twisting words, it's good to note that you are self conscious about the act. Many scum tell themselves that their rhetoric is rock solid and that they are making perfectly sound observations that happen to be wrong. I look at the way you just interacted with Desperado and go "yep, that fits."

[Socrates]

I keep wondering if I need to bring back my List.

[Socrates]

Note that Majiffy is making a holistic argument about which he is encouraging players to examine and see for themselves. He named a few examples, and it would be nice if he named more, but he wasn't asking people to take his word for it.

Tywin, you yourself admitted that you are being too wordy with your posts, you should hardly act surprised when a player goes the next logical step of accusing them words as being fluff. And please stop using the term OMGUS, you seem to misunderstand what that meaningless buzzword is

supposed

to refer to.

It does not refer to a player simply scumreading someone who scumreads them, it refers to instances of players using the FACT that someone is scumreading them and making a (to their perspective) bad argument for that read as further justification TO scumread someone.

So yes, the only person here who that term might theoretically apply to is you, Tywin. Good thing OMGUS isn't actually a reliable scumtell.

[Socrates]

Tywin you know better.

Does he? This isn't the first time he accused someone not following him as being the obvious scum buddy.

[Socrates]

Hey Clumsy, where you at?

[Socrates]

This head thinks Tywin is looking worse and worse as this goes on. It might be pot calling kettle black and all, but desp does seem to be sidelining and doesn't look good to me as a result. Clumshead isn't at work but idk where he's at.

-Shaziro

Hey Clumsy, where you at?

Right here how ya doing?

-Shaziro

P-Edit- because we are both awesome?

Ah I'm doing fine thanks for asking.

Where do you feel like moving your vote now that the player you sheeped moved on?

[Socrates]

There's lying and the there's having self-delusions about the strength of your own argumentation.

I find the dichotomy between Majiffy complaining about people bending over backwards to TR Tywin at the same time that Tywin is complaining about how everyone is suddenly scumreading him amusing.

Frankly I am more inclined to scumread Tywin and town read Maj over their exchange, but only slightly. And if I was literally forced to pick between the two, I would pick Tywin. Luckily I don't have to.

Vifram voiced concerns that scum were going to take advantage of their argument, but the only person who seems to have actually taken the bait is CP.

I wish Almost didn't jump on Maria as fast as he did. It would have been better to wait and see if she let the vote linger.

Imperium needs a prod.

[Socrates]

This head thinks Tywin is looking worse and worse as this goes on. It might be pot calling kettle black and all, but desp does seem to be sidelining and doesn't look good to me as a result. Clumshead isn't at work but idk where he's at.

-Shaziro

I realized I quoted this but didn't say what I meant to say.

Please to be distinguishing between looking "worse" and looking "scummy".

[Socrates]

I also find it annoying that the prophecy that sharizo would look scummy while clumsy would look towny is proving disturbingly accurate.

[Socrates]

Liking Albert on this page.

[Socrates]

Eh? I gave reasons for voting you. You even said they were fair?

[Socrates]

Lets see if this works twice:

Yo, Clumsy! Where you at?

[Socrates]

ty Majiffy :3

What do you mean, ty majiffy? He linked you to a post that contained nothing more than a vote. No explanation. Did you even read his link?

He elaborates in his ensuing conversation with Desperado along that page. That's what he meant by "start here".

I certainly hope his read has developed in some way since then, since that was awhile ago.

[Socrates]

VOTE: clumsy

Don't think this means I TR you, Maria.

[Socrates]

Majiffy, have you given an opinion on Maria?

[Socrates]

I need a votecount. That wasn't L-1, right?

[Socrates]

Do you also have authority to do a prod, Gin? Imperium needs one.

[Socrates]

Shaz, have you guys rolled scum as your hydra before?

[Socrates]

I was going to ask why you focused on Alisae to ISO, Imperium, but then I thought it was because he was first alphabetically, but then I just checked and no he isn't.

So why spend so much time on Alisae, especially when you I thought you already town-read them?

[Socrates]

Kay, non-arbitrary sorting method that wasn't alphabetical was what I wanted to hear. Carry on.

especially when you I thought you already town-read them?

Also, where did we give the impression that we already townread Alisae?

Fuck, now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know. Maybe you had some interaction at some point that I misread or maybe I'm confusing something someone else said or maybe I just pulled it out of my ass.*

*Im not that old, relatively speaking, but I do have serious concerns about the quality of my memory for reasons that are beyond the scope of this game.

[Socrates]

Shaz, have you guys rolled scum as your hydra before?

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66931

Dammit. I was expecting you to say no and this was informing my read of you. Now I have to read this and re-evaluate my entire read on your slot.

Not going to on my phone. But later!

[Socrates]

Clumsy, I didn't mention this at the time because I wanted to see more of your posting first, but I found it highly amusing that you, of all the players in this game, singled me out as an outsider and asked me about my familiarity with everyone, because the one bit of meta information that I DID carry into this game is that I know you to have used the 'I Suck' defense before as scum.

It got linked to me in an argument about Appeals to Emotions.

What you guys are doing here isn't exactly the same, but it wouldn't be. That would be silly.

Now that I'm at a computer, I'm going to actually read that link you provided.

[Socrates]

Gods, yet another game that starts off with a massclaim proposal being shutdown by "it only helps the scum!" and "mod wouldn't be that dumb."

Kids these days. Not even familiar with the arguments for early massclaim.

[Socrates]

Okay maybe ABR flipped scum lol no it is so RARE you ever wagon 2 scum in a row let alone 1 on day 1 the fact everyone is okay with both these wagons should be red flag city showing scum are okay with this like this is mafia 101

Funny, Day 1 of the scumgame that Clumsy linked me to consisted entirely of jockeying back and forth between two players the entire day with not even the slightest hint of a wagon forming on anyone else, with one person going "I don't like these two wagons and think scum are lurking on the wagons".
That person was scum. One of those two people being wagoned were scum (Clumsy Phoenix themselves).

I note also that this game serves as minor evidence that their "always scumread" thing is not entirely alignment indicative. They aren't like Maria is basically claiming to be -- only ever scumread as town -- and they are certainly self-aware enough to use this shield AS scum. I haven't finished reading the game yet to my satisfaction, though, and then I still need to take a look at some of their town games.

Tywin makes it real easy for his rhetorical opponents because of how excitable he is, how reductive he seems to get about his opponent's arguments once he scumreads them, and the sheer volume of words he puts out making it easy to find holes.

This, in turn, is making it hard for me to tell if CP has stepped up their game or if they just found an easy person to argue with.

Imperium, I would actually like to hear your hard sell on why Tywin is town, if you don't mind.

In the meantime, I'm moving back.

VOTE: Maria

[Socrates]

Also, Tywin isn't reading my posts anymore than I am reading his if he thinks Almost was the first person to give Maria heat.

[Socrates]

CP, entertain a seemingly random question: are there any reads that you guys

disagree

about?

I wouldn't mind if Imperium answered this question as well.

[Socrates]

By the way, unless there is some kind of meta-history of Nacho mis-reading Majif, Scum!Majif would only want to directly play chicken with him if they were scumbuddies.

[Socrates]

CP, entertain a seemingly random question: are there any reads that you guys

disagree

about?

I wouldn't mind if Imperium answered this question as well.

Not at the moment to the best of my knowledge, but I'll get with clumsy head as soon as I can and discuss this. We are usually pretty good about avoiding hydra dissonance. For a time previously in this game, my read on MariaR earlier based on their behavior vs Clumsy saying that was actually most likely either NAI or towny.

-Shaziro

Before talking to Clumsy, what is your riskiest read? Do you have any reads that you would consider 'risky'?

[Socrates]

Funny, Day 1 of the scumgame that Clumsy linked me to consisted entirely of jockeying back and forth between two players the entire day with not even the slightest hint of a wagon forming on anyone else, with one person going "I don't like these two wagons and think scum are lurking on the wagons".
That person was scum. One of those two people being wagoned were scum (Clumsy Phoenix themselves).
:
<clipped out for convenience>
:
VOTE: Maria

Hold on a second! So you saw the game had similarities with the situation here, and Clumsy was in a similar position to the one in here, and they were scum there, so you leave the 5 person wagon on them and join the wagon that had just dissipated on Maria??

Explain this to me like I'm 4 not 5. Because I would have stayed on the larger wagon of the two if I thought both Clumsy and Maria are scum (which I do).

What you just did is a classic SCUM move. It only leaves me wondering if Clumsy is your Scum p and you want the wagon on them to go away, or if they're Town and you want to not appear on the wagon now that it looks likely to go all the way.

What does everybody think of this??

The similarities were only surface level, but there were key differences in circumstances that I did not want to get into too deeply since I have not finished reading what I want to read.

For one, CP lurked their asses off when placed in those competing wagons and let their belligerent counterpart dig their own grave, which they have not done here. but I need to see how day 2 went (where they got lynched) before I can judge how this might have informed their play going forward.

The scum profile I imagined for them also isn't panning out in general, so I'm moving my vote off of an L-2 until I Find footing with them again.

I can see where you're coming from, but I, as town, am not going to leave my vote somewhere I am uncomfortable.

I was also curious if people would follow me back onto Maria, myself.

[Socrates]

i also hope you would recognize what I'm trying to do in my last few interactions with him.

[Socrates]

Literally the only thing that I read that actually supported Clumsy!scum is the notion that their "inherent scumminess" seems to follow them regardless of alignment and was saying that I hesitate to read too much into their interaction with Tywin because Tywin, but I'm

less

confident in their scumminess than I started.

I suppose this was a failure in communication on my part. Allow me to try again:

My

intention

with that post was to draw attention to Maria's trying to use the lack of competing wagons as evidence that their wagons were bad, when I was literally reading a game that contradicted that sentiment.

Did you even read my follow up with Almost?

And Albert, do you really think scum!Clumsy would still be holding any dragon balls? I'll have to double check, but Im

pretty

sure that there was a window where they weren't the leading wagon, and they would have gotten rid of their balls post-haste if they were scum. How does that fit with you thinking I'm just angling for a hammer?

[Socrates]

Now I need to go back and see if their vote on Not Chara made NC's wagon bigger than his.

[Socrates]

The similarities were only surface level, but there were key differences in circumstances that I did not want to get into too deeply since I have not finished reading what I want to read.

For one, CP lurked their asses off when placed in those competing wagons and let their belligerent counterpart dig their own grave, which they have not done here. but I need to see how day 2 went (where they got lynched) before I can judge how this might have informed their play going forward.

The scum profile I imagined for them also isn't panning out in general, so I'm moving my vote off of an L-2 until I Find footing with them again.

I can see where you're coming from, but I, as town, am not going to leave my vote somewhere I am uncomfortable.

I was also curious if people would follow me back onto Maria, myself.

[Socrates]

And before you ask, the "scum profile" I had in mind was that Sharizo was having legit performance anxiety about not fucking up their scumgame for his hydra partner/friend, and that being why he was afraid to do literally anything without Clumsy's approval, even talk about minor reads or game events. Though Now that I think about it, I was looking to see if this would be their first go as scum, but it being their second after a bad first try does still fit, I guess.

Pre-edit:uhgggg, I want to see Imperium comment one way or the other about the current gamestate!

Ugh, and we DO need to talk about hammering in case of mislynch/incompetent scum. Who do we want to do this?

In the meantime, I guess consider this l-1 for CP. I am not averse to seeing a claim from them.

Albert, what do YOU do with a CP townflip? And don't you "he won't flip town" me!

[Socrates]

I'd look at everyone who sat quietly by and benefitted from the lynch without any skin in the game.

A good answer. I was hoping for a name or two, but I think the real "side liners" here are pretty clear.

I want you to hammer, Albert. How about you and I switch? You unvote and and I'll hop on the wagon.

[Socrates]

VOTE: Clumsy Phoenix

[Socrates]

When I say flesh it out, it means ask questions, sort players, do anything other than angry defense. When will you ask me a question Clumsy? Or do you both just randomly believe your reads without thought or question? When you're wrong, it's pretty much your own fault then, because you didn't try to find out. Apparently, only a flip of whomever will ever give you any info, because you don't ask questions. That's what I mean when I say you haven't scum hunted or tried to sort anyone. Granted, my opinion is subjective like always, but that's how I see it.

Pedit: is clumsy L1? Did he claim yet? I need to catch up.

He should be at L-2, we're switching early so Albert can control the hammer without risk of interference.

[Socrates]

I was suggesting that it would be silly for me, if I was Clumsy's scumbuddy, to work around the wagon to angle for a hammer when he could have just sent any balls to me earlier. (And if I was scum I sure as fuck would have instructed any lynchbait partners to do so

immediately

)

BUT, we should still be disciplined about how we handle the hammer in case of a mislynch/scum aren't as smart as me.

(And there might be more to my thought process than I am sharing at this moment.)

As for Zef, I have never been comfortable with that slot, but I really need to take a look at him again at some point because my focus has mostly been directed elsewhere. His take on my scumread of you was interesting, but I wish he was more active. He seems to lag behind the rest of the town, which is a convenience I would like taken away from him. How about you?

[Socrates]

I follow you, but I have to wonder how much of that ties back to his activity issues. His next post from 660 is post 1004. It of course might be a lie, but he threw out a prodge yesterday and promised to catch up today.

I said I wanted to see Imperium, but I also want to see if he keeps that promise.

[Socrates]

Jesus Christ I already clarified that post.

[Socrates]

Who's going to be online for the next 30min?

I will as well.

[Socrates]

It should go without saying that ball ownership should be counterclaimed with impunity.

I doubt Zaj and Clumsy aren't scumbuddies.

[Socrates]

It should go without saying that ball ownership should be counterclaimed with impunity.

I doubt Zaj and Clumsy aren't* scumbuddies.

*ARE

I don't think they are both scum, to be clear.

[Socrates]

It should go without saying that ball ownership should be counterclaimed with impunity.

Counterclaimed?? Are the balls in the show of certain functions each? Or are they related to certain characters?? Because from what I read (trying to familiarize myself with the flavour) they had so many users I don't even think anyone would fake claim having x-star ball to begin with. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Btw, I love this fat Guru guy Kuroi keeps using in the VCs, and from what little I've seen he is weird and ordering Nail around like the latter is his slave or something.

I also want those who are familiar with the flavour to weigh in regarding that claim. Does it sound legit? Is that character a main character (as in must be included) or does sound more like a safe fake-claim (Kuroi does provide those, btw).

Dragon balls are individually identifiable by their star number. It's in the opening rule post. Clumsy claimed to have the six star ball. If someone else has the six-star ball, they should counter immediately.

[Socrates]

It should go without saying that ball ownership should be counterclaimed with impunity.

Counterclaimed?? Are the balls in the show of certain functions each? Or are they related to certain characters?? Because from what I read (trying to familiarize myself with the flavour) they had so many users I don't even think anyone would fake claim having x-star ball to begin with. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Btw, I love this fat Guru guy Kuroi keeps using in the VCs, and from what little I've seen he is weird and ordering Nail around like the latter is his slave or something.

I also want those who are familiar with the flavour to weigh in regarding that claim. Does it sound legit? Is that character a main character (as in must be included) or does sound more like a safe fake-claim (Kuroi does provide those, btw).

Dragon balls are individually identifiable by their star number. It's in the opening rule post. Clumsy claimed to have the six star ball. If someone else has the six-star ball, they should counter immediately.

My point is/was: If they're Scum and have the 6-star ball there's no need for them to fake claim THAT. Having a ball on it's own isn't a Town feature .. or is it?? If it IS, then with no CC they're Town. If it isn't then there's no way we can tell their alignment just from having this particular ball, so it's safe for them to claim it anyway.

No, it isn't alignment indicative in itself. But in case you missed it, Albert and I just talked about how scum would be unlikely to keep their balls if they thought they were going to die, and as Imperium noted, scum might fakeclaim having a particular ball to a) appear counter to this logic, and b) attempt to flush out the real owner of the ball.

B) is stupid and easily remedied by the town (but shush don't tell the scum this) and if they do A) and no counterclaim nor ball is produced, them we know someone else in the scumteam is in control of that particular ball.

I don't expect many ball ownership counterclaims to happen outside of Lylo, but if you do have conflicting ball info, fucking claim it. It only benefits the town.

[Socrates]

Will weigh in on Imperium's posting more deeply when I'm sober, but I am totes happy with a Maria lynch. More so than Clumsy at this point.

I'm hesitating to unvote yet because my switching votes with Albert was part of an

elaborate scheme

that I'm hoping Albert picked up on. I should delete this sentence but fuck me, Almost already ruined it but unvoting and it's not like my stunts ever worked back in the day.

[Socrates]

And Nacho, I don't know if you remember nor care about this topic, but THIS is what a Rusty Socrates looks like.

[Socrates]

About Fakeclaims: The guy in the sample PM was a minor Freeza's goon yet is listed as earthling aligned. Unless there's some specific moment that makes that make sense that I'm forgetting, alignment looks independent of flavor.

[Socrates]

Yeah no I think Vegeta wrecked him as soon as he got on Namek

Maj, I have whipped up a quick survey I would like you to fill out at your earliest convenience:

Spoiler:

if you could summarize the Phoenix wagon in one word, which word would

best

match your opinion?

A: Good
B: Bad
C: Ugly
D: Indifferent

[Socrates]

No I'm here Tywin talk to me about things.

How you feeling? You haven't said much in a while.

[Socrates]

I'd Maria flips scum, I'll gladly follow next seeing as I was so wrong

we don't lynch people for being wrong. if you're town, stop suggesting to take a dive for no reason.

It's really getting tiring.

Also Tywin hasn't seen scum hard bus a partner day 1?

I did it in my last game, and I should link him to Mayor Mafia. Both scumbuddies hard bussed their roleblocker and even stuck to the bus

after he claimed cop

.

This is also the game that I first observed the thing that I scumread you for at the beginning of the game, NC.

Though if anyone does read that game, prepare to see a much younger Socrates. So much energy! So full of life!

[Socrates]

I literally struggle to follow what the current arguments are even about.

[Socrates]

I read through that whole wall and my eyes only glazed over once or twice! You've made a few shit assumptions here, and I'm assuming that's because you're scum trying to push a narrative.

I like the confidence and conviction in this read; Socrates I noticed liked it too but managed to dismiss it by rationalizing it by Clumsy finding someone to spar with who had weak rhetoric, but I don't think that makes sense. If Clumsy is scum here, nothing changes with the discovery of Tywin; the wagon on them is still much stronger and, even if stars align and they manage to get Tywin lynched, they're still dead tomorrow - finding a player you can beat up as scum is nice, but it's typically not enough impetus for a change in attitude. Finding scum is different; as town, finding scum Day 1 means that even if you get lynched today, there's a roadmap to follow after you're gone and even if scum manage to lynch you today, you will still win if they fall down after you die.

This is a fine perspective in a vacuum, and I didn't dismiss it so much as hesitated to give it too much credit. Things like this ARE part of why I keep flip-flopping on him. But remember that CP's arguments with Tywin almost exactly mirror what happened between Majiffy and Tywin. Majiffy was being wagoned, came out with a case on Tywin, Tywin tunnelled hard, and Majiffy came out the other side looking better to the audience than he went in. There is a blueprint for this success already sitting in this very game, and it wouldn't be hard to Scum!CP to see that and strategically place his vote there, anticipating that he could rely on the resulting explosion from Tywin to only be to his benefit.

And remember that when he placed that vote he wasn't the Topic of the Day.

[Socrates]

Oh I think I get the argument? Zefiend stated Tywin's perspective on the wagons backward, Majif pointed this out, and Zefiend jumped straight to 'we don't have to agree on everything' instead of simply admitting that he got something wrong?

Or something?

Majif, help me out here.

[Socrates]

Okay. Then yes, this is a dumb argument.

The fact that you are choosing to just shut it down rather than scumread him is ++good.

[Socrates]

I'd Maria flips scum, I'll gladly follow next seeing as I was so wrong

we don't lynch people for being wrong. if you're town, stop suggesting to take a dive for no reason.

It's really getting tiring.

Also Tywin hasn't seen scum hard bus a partner day 1?

I did it in my last game, and I should link him to Mayor Mafia. Both scumbuddies hard bussed their roleblocker and even stuck to the bus

after he claimed cop

.

This is also the game that I first observed the thing that I scumread you for at the beginning of the game, NC.

Though if anyone does read that game, prepare to see a much younger Socrates. So much energy! So full of life!

Why are you linking past games like I'm supposed to care? I gave my experience, which is extensive, but based on making smart plays. Bussing a buddy on D1 is a gamble that's completely the wrong move 99.9% of the time as scum, and it only becomes a decent play when the buddy you bus is a weak sauce lynchbait player. Nobody would ever do that if their scum team was all strong. Linking games where you made a bad move, regardless of it paying off or not, doesn't change my opinion. It's frankly a terrible move to make as scum. Yes, ANYone can do absolutely anything in Mafia, and I promise that if you look hard enough, you can find a game where someone has done ANYTHING you can think of, regardless of how stupid or illogical.

That doesn't refute my point. Scum don't do it because it's a terrible move to make. If I play Russian roulette, I may not shoot my face off. I may live, but that doesn't mean it's stupid af. If people don't make the optimal moves as town or scum, that's their own fault and not something worth linking to excuse future behavior.

A-are you high? This post is literally nonsensical.

[Socrates]

Before you ask idunno what I just wanna talk to someone cuz I feel like it's going to help me get back into this game after not being in it.

I tried talking to you a bit ago and you didn't respond.

[Socrates]

Oh it was just this:

No I'm here Tywin talk to me about things.

How you feeling? You haven't said much in a while.

Have you been reading?

[Socrates]

You think they are distancing?

[Socrates]

Sorry, I misread.

Feel like selling me on Desperado?

[Socrates]

Hey CP! Where you at?

[Socrates]

in my interpretation of events, the threat of maria selfvoting had already dissipated when you unvoted

that is the crux of the issue

pedit: i wish. i take a piss test monday morning that essentially decides the future of my career and last i checked i still wasnt pissing clean so i'm anxious as fuck about it

Desp, do you understand that it was Nacho who voted and Tammy who unvoted?

[Socrates]

Hey CP! Where you at?

You better not lurk to deadline dammit!

[Socrates]

If you are town and also townread Maria, this the worst time in the world for you guys to lurk.

[Socrates]

Tammy, have you caught up yet? If not, please make that a priority over arguing with Desperado.

I have to meet someone for lunch, otherwise I would be hunting for activity from the two main accounts on CP right now.

[Socrates]

Jesus Christ I don't think I can play a full game of Mafia with Tywin. He is the probably most obnoxious player I have ever met.

I don't want to stick the mod with a replacement request this close to deadline, so I'll stick around for until we get a lynch, but come nightfall I am done playing this game.

VOTE: Maria

Desperado seems fine. He's just short spoken so his posts are getting lost in this fucking sea of nonsense, which is why he doesn't seem to have much presence in this game.

[Socrates]

I guess you're no longer sad.

Depression doesn't magically go away.

You are an incredibly charming person who is a pleasure to talk to, I hope to have the chance to play with you again some day.

[Socrates]

there's really no reason to replace out socrates

Tywin spent a page plus openly berating me and i suspect it will only get worse as the game goes on.

Why should I subject myself to this?

[Socrates]

Socrates plz don't replace out I'll miss you ;~;

Im not in a good place emotionally, myself.

[Socrates]

Yeah, sure.

VOTE: tywin

The irony being that I get nightkilled anyway.

[Socrates]

For those wondering, I did request a replacement, but then I cooled off and rescinded it.

Looking at the flips and based on my own role, we should massclaim.

I'm willing to start.

[Socrates]

Albert, massclaim?

Clumsy, it has to do with my role and what I can do with it. I have other minor observations, those will only be potentially relevant after masssclaim.

It's a

bit

of a gamble, but I think we still come out ahead in the worst case.

[Socrates]

I can give you a more lengthy run through on massclaim arguments in the morning. Phone posting from bed, so I can't type out too much.

[Socrates]

I said I am willing to go first, mostly as a good faith gesture because I'm the one that wants to do it (obviously going later would be preferred). I just want the town's consent before starting.

Fakeclaims are overvalued, and we're not flavor hunting, here.

[Socrates]

But we can E7 this shit.

[Socrates]

Real quick, I've been so busy looking at a number of other games and I can't remember if this game is confirmed to be a 10-3 spread or if that was one of the other games I was reading.

Any help?

[Socrates]

Tywin why aren't you voting right now?

I'm waiting for NC to respond, among others. I don't like throwing my vote around without weight behind it.

what? you spent the majority of d1 pushing majiffy and then linking him to Ali and Socrates. why do you need anyone's response to vote?

Reconsidering your reads is exactly what you do when there's a scumflip? That you naked-voted Albert without verbally showing any curiosity about what Majiffy's flip meant is the weird thing here.

I'm going to go eat, and then I'll give my big long massclaim argument that Clumsy asked for.

For the record, I didn't particularly scumread Desp yesterday, but he's already pinged me multiple times today.

[Socrates]

Okay I see I have a lot of questions to get to, but first:

Spoiler: The Benefits of Massclaim

First of all, remember that the standard for this argument is not that we can solve the entire game by massclaiming, but merely that a massclaim will improve the town's position overall. This is something a lot of Massclaim naysayers forget.

The core principal here goes back to something I posted early on day 1:

I find

it*

annoying that people think about the mechanics only in terms of how they can be used directly, not in terms of how they can be a vector for scumhunting. Scum can do a lot, but they can do very little without leaving a paper trail if we approach it correctly. I will have more to say on this day 2.

The short version of the argument is that by massclaiming early, scum are forced to lock themselves into a specific narrative early and then have to make it stick throughout the full course of the game. When you wait for Lylo to massclaim, scum only have to tailor their claims to look good for only one or two day phases and one night phase.

They have to do this, while at the same time avoiding risk of early counter-claims (Town takes this trade this early every time) and investigative roles like trackers, watchers, and rolecops.

Further, the scum are already down a man, so they absolutely, positively

cannot

afford to fuck up on this massclaim, and I am fairly confident we will be able to force scum to participate in the massclaim fairly early, so they are unlikely to try anything fancy and just stick to their safe, mod-provided fakeclaims.

Secondly, while it is true that scum get to direct their night game towards their win condition, remember a disruption in the town's planned night actions are

themselves a vector through which the town can hunt the scum.

Thirdly, an early massclaim can disrupt the mafia's daygame through the inverse of the first point: A weakly positioned townie (like, say, me) that the mafia were keeping in their back pocket for a potential mislynch claims power. Since the townie isn't doing it at L-1, when that townie can be easily dismissed as fakeclaiming and then hammered, this presents a dilemma for the scum. The longer the townie is left alive, the more likely it is for their claim to be demonstrated to be true through some form or fashion, even if it's just through it matching their perspective in the daygame.

This is the gist of the generalized argument for an early massclaim, as I understand it. I am not an expert on this matter, and the Pie_Is_Good School of Massclaiming was something I only got to hear about, never see in action for myself.

Note that this argument is proportionally stronger the more power roles there are in the game.

Now, to the second point:

[spoiler="The Relevancy Of My Role]Okay, enough beating around the bush, I said I was going to go first anyway and any competent scumteam will have already have a pretty good idea of what my role is. In fact, they should have known for quite some time, since I thoughtlessly soft-claimed my power way back on page 2:

(in response to Almost)

So what your saying is: write off the dragon ball mechanic and never let it happen.

It occurs to me that The Thing I Can Do is obvious enough that the mod had to have anticipated it. I need to reread the mechanics real quick.

I felt real stupid after I posted this, and part of the reason I am being so open is that I figured I couldn't make things any worse.

I am a doctor. I want the vig to claim so that I can protect him, and by coordinating with him like this, avoid something silly like me and the vig targeting the same person.

Because of the earlier stated reasons, scum would have to be suicidal to try to counter-claim the vig and we will be able to trust the claim.

And before you ask, I will not explain what That Thing I Can Do was just yet.[/spoiler]

Also,

Spoiler: Super Secret Bonus Reason

Anyone familiar with the source material knows that there is a particular character that would perfectly fit the role of a Serial Killer.

But optimal play is for townies to buddy up to the SK

anyway

until the mafia is dead, so keep this a secret! This is just between you and me. Tell no one!

There are potential weaknesses here, and perhaps I should have taken a different approach, but it's too late now and this the best version of the argument that I can present.

Let's see how much of this anyone actually reads.

[Socrates]

I'll respond to standing queries in a bit. I need a break.

[Socrates]

Oh yes, yes, yes, I am aggressively throwing myself on the chopping block here.

But I am a very self-sacrifice oriented player, and if I can guarentee the Vig's safety tonight, and then he gets to shoot again tomorrow, we ensure 4 pro-town kills in two days and will be down to endgame anyway. A worthwhile use of my role in my view. (I also suck at playing doc.)

[Socrates]

Socrates, i fail to see any correlation between your "Thing I Can Do" post and your doctor place. the post that you said outed yourself so badly looks like something related to the dragonballs, not to being a doctor.

I'd rather explain after massclaim, but think about it: what can a doctor do WITH the dragonball mechanic?

[Socrates]

@Tywin: I'm working on figuring things out. I'd appreciate your patience before I respond.

@Socrates: Since you are still around, would you care to explain what about "this specific vote count and the pages leading up to it" you wanted us to remember?

Hey, thanks for reminding me about that! My suspicion at the time was that we had just seen (or were about to see) our first dragonball handoff between the scum.

I'll need to review that.

[Socrates]

Also Socrates, while you're writing up your argument for a mass claim (which I want to see despite us having claimed), what is your read on our slot?

I am currently viewing you with an intense, stress inducing paranoia.

What you did is

exactly

what I would have theoretically advised you to do if you are scum, but it's also

exactly

the kind of thing I like doing myself as a townie.

I forgot to mention this as I was claiming: The Six Star dragon ball mysteriously arrived in my mail this morning.

[Socrates]

Socrates, the vigi shouldn't claim now that the doc did. There's still a chance you're scum and fake claiming doc to sacrifice yourself to out the vigi to scum.

The optimal move for the vigi is to now stay silent and let you get NK'd. You're now the top target if your claim is true. If it isn't true, then vigi claiming only helps scum here. There's in no way any cause for vigi to claim now. If you're really a town doc, then you're death tonight saves the vigi from a random NK. If you lied, then you'll flip scum in tomorrow's lynch, and your mass claim hope was a shot in the dark gamble to hopefully out the town PRs.

No, I don't think the vigi should say a word. Can you argue differently? If you're really the doc, then vigi claiming only protects him for ONE night. If he doesn't claim, then you'll die and still protect him for one night. Same thing. Big difference for towns chances.

Vigi: don't claim

Vigi should only claim if we go for the full massclaim.

If we don't do the full massclaim, then the vigi should absolutely not claim.

[Socrates]

Socrates: did you say who you protected night 1?

Sorry, no. I forgot.

I protected Albert.

I also forgot to claim my role's flavor.

I am Dende, A character I had complely forgotten about, and then went "Oh right! The kid Namekian with the healing powers!"

[Socrates]

Socrates' last few posts all reek of role fishing. He may legit be one who likes to sacrifice himself, but that may be for scum over town. Scum gain WAAAY more in a mass claim (with their fake claim roles to boot) over anything town gets. Town gets a doc to protect for a single night, assuming scum don't have a roleblocker and he's even telling the truth. Scum get all the town PRs for no legitimate reason at all. Essentially, it's a bad, bad move for town to claim here.

NC pointing that out gives them TCred in my view. I didn't think about it that way until they mentioned it. I also like this Clumsy argument tbh. I didn't think about the hammer snipe either. This is why I wanted NC to post before I voted. Desperado takes my top scum spot now.

*sigh*

At least acknowledge the argument for why town benefits from massclaiming, even if you disagree with it.

[Socrates]

Socrates, i won't ask why you chose Albert because it's frankly obvious that he was a major townread.
can you go into more detail as to why that is?

Yes, but it's very complicated and I'm running low on stamina. It has to do with what happened between post 1036 and 1087. I'll get to this tomorrow.

Also Socrates, while you're writing up your argument for a mass claim (which I want to see despite us having claimed), what is your read on our slot?

I am currently viewing you with an intense, stress inducing paranoia.

What you did is

exactly

what I would have theoretically advised you to do if you are scum, but it's also

exactly

the kind of thing I like doing myself as a townie.

I forgot to mention this as I was claiming: The Six Star dragon ball mysteriously arrived in my mail this morning.

might as well answer this too.
are you referring to asking for a read on one's slot, or is it something else you're talking about?

I'm referring to him giving me his dragon ball.

[Socrates]

the argument is scum are locked into their narratives early-game, and have to be careful taking actions that would disagree with it.
it's

something

, but it's not worth giving scum a roadmap of kills.

yes, we can use how the scum react to the massclaim as a vector for scumclaiming, as Socrates said... but i wouldn't know how to effectively do it without falling into wifom.

In truth, I've resigned myself to not getting the massclaim, so I'm not going to continue to push it any harder than responding to direct questions, but I'll say this: you can't learn unless you try!

And also that

I

would certainly have a great deal to say.

[Socrates]

Tywin, every time you say I

have

to die tonight, the easier you are making it for scum to not bother killing me because they could mislynch me tomorrow instead.

I'm not asking you to change your mind, but you should backburner that thought for now.

[Socrates]

I literally just sprung up from sleep with a thought:

If the player who killed Majiffy received THREE balls, this might very well be the one possible scenario where the town can successfully summon the dragon.

Back to sleep.

[Socrates]

Tomorrow is moving day! To celebrate a full day of packing, we went to our favorite restaurant, where we happened to mention to the manager that we were leaving, so of COURSE he breaks out the special family tequila.

I have never been this drunk in my life. And I won't be available the majority of tomorrow for reasons that, if you cannot successfully infer, you are an idiot.

I have not read the thread. If you have pending questions, then that's a shame. I will catch up Saturday.

[Socrates]

I'm sorry I came across as insulting your intelligence day 1 Tywin, that not my intent. I do believe you need to work on your rhetorical skills, but you admitted to that yourself, so i wan't expecting you to get so angry about it. And then I got pissy about your response. That was childish of me.

I want mafia to be a respectful game, but I often fail to live up to my own standards. It's frustrating to recognize one's own hypocrisy.

[Socrates]

If not chara is scum then goddamn i will feel so fucking validated about my first vote that it will be dangerous to my ego.

[Socrates]

prod received. Internet achieved.

Catching up now.

[Socrates]

Okay, I read up from when I last posted, but now I have to find the posts I skipped when I drunkposted on Thursday.

Going to put this out there right now: IF Desperado is scum, the scumteam has a roleblocker.

[Socrates]

@Socrates: You do know you need to pass that ball in case you get NK'd. Right? I mean, I do not necessarily agree your claim was a bad move because I was going to push you if it wasn't for it, but I don't understand why you ALSO claimed you received that ball. Makes you an even bigger target IMHO.

I have no plans to hold onto this ball. I'm a doctor, the ball is best left in my target's hands (WIFOMWIFOMWIFOM).

I also revealed receiving the ball because I wanted people to know that ClumsyPheonix did that. What do YOU make of him doing that?

Tywin, every time you say I

have

to die tonight, the easier you are making it for scum to not bother killing me because they could mislynch me tomorrow instead.

I'm not asking you to change your mind, but you should backburner that thought for now.

see, there's the issue.
scum doesn't want their kills to be blocked. leaving a claimed doctor alive to hopefully wifom mislynch them, and risk that doctor protecting the player they try to kill?

it's just better play to kill you, even if they have a roleblocker.

The scum probably have a very good idea of who I am going to be protecting tonight. And if they have a roleblocker, no fucking way do they kill me. They block me, kill the person they think I am targeting (

for MULTIPLE reasons

), and then happily ride the mislynch train to my death. Especially if there's a townie who is almost on the brink of policy voting me tomorrow if I live.

[Socrates]

- Socrates is playing as though his whole claim/argument thing is a gambit. Whether it's a town gambit or a scum gambit, it will be resolved by Tomorrow, so trying to push through that lynch today is dumb.

I like you. You're sharp.

Three questions:

1) What do you think my gambit actually is?
2) What do you make of Desperado going from 'meh' to 'I'm all for it!' after I put out the hypothesis of me protecting the vig?
3) What ARE your feelings on massclaim?

[Socrates]

ABR was pushing Clumsy until the end of the day.

This is factually untrue:

ABR what is your read on us ATM?

-Shaziro

Not super sure.

He moved his vote to desperado.

[Socrates]

NC, when I gave you links to the interval of the game that made me Town Read ABR, did you click through and read it yourself, or did you just decide to wait for me to fill in the details?

[Socrates]

Also give me an example of Desperado "Pushing" an ABR lynch. Multiples would be nice.

If these examples could be found on day 2, that would be even better.

[Socrates]

Albert, is it possible that NC is choosing to hard-defend a townie?

[Socrates]

I want mafia to be a respectful game

Can't wait until you catch up and see not chara's insolence then!

Make Mafia Respectful Again.

Oh I get the joke here now.

[Socrates]

I'm here and queer

(Actually only one of those)

Please tell me in your own words major events that took place in this game while I decide who is getting nailed to a cross

How's the decision making coming along?

[Socrates]

Okay, I read up from when I last posted, but now I have to find the posts I skipped when I drunkposted on Thursday.

Going to put this out there right now: IF Desperado is scum, the scumteam has a roleblocker.

Entirely possible. This could be a reason not to massclaim I guess.

So we have two VT claims in Ali/Desp. What to do? Someone be a town leader and give us plebs direction. I'm at a loss.

NC has boldly refused to claim even in the face of a total massclaim (or at least that's how I read their words).

When they do claim, if they don't claim VT (or one other possible role) then power lynch at the next available opportunity.

[Socrates]

Why do I get the gut feeling NC is only motivated to get Dragonballs?

Why DID you get that feeling?

Also, Massclaim?

[Socrates]

Just checked NC's ISO. They are town.

[Socrates]

Albert, how good would you say your are at setup spec and reading power roles as scum?

[Socrates]

i do appreciate Socrates catching up.
why did my ISO give a confident townread?

Alisae: wanting to hammer Maria

was

dragonball motivated. why no response to my comments about Code Geass or your play this game?

There's no need for me to explain. I WILL be heavily scrutinizing your play day 3, however.

Care to respond to my other posts pointed your way? They are still relevant.

I'm giving you my dragon ball tonight. If it doesn't arrive, then Imperium's question about whether ball passing can be roleblocked can be considered officially answered.

Capiche?

[Socrates]

I also revealed receiving the ball because I wanted people to know that ClumsyPheonix did that. What do YOU make of him doing that?

Town who trusted you or scum p with you (in which case this may or may not be true to begin with). There's no 3rd way about it. Scum will not pass a ball to Town and Town would not lie about receiving a ball. Since we all chose to trust you then you should be both Town.

This is a dangerously simplistic viewpoint on how the scumteam can use the dragonballs as tools to manipulate the town. I am worried about whether this is because you haven't thought heavily about it or because you HAVE thought heavily about it.

Also, if you are town, your vulnerability to trustfalls is something I will backpocket for if I ever play scum against you in the future.

I asked you specifically because it runs counter to the strategy you endorsed of every townie holding onto ONE dragonball. I'm surprised you didn't raise an eyebrow when I believe you did at Alisae.

[Socrates]

Socrates: I take the NC wording as what we all assume it means, which basically invalidates any reason to not massclaim anyways, but whatever. If they later claim VT, I'm lynching them over it. Plain and simple. No VR refuses to claim when the town benefits look drastically to out favor scum, and also because anyone who reads the thread can already make educated guesses at things. It's pretty obvious who scum will NK with or without a roleblocker. If someone else flips what NC is assumed to be, then NC is fucked. I will make sure of that.

So really, it remains ABR/Lycan/Desp/Clumsy/Alisae, with Clumsy/Lycan my current preference.

There's no reason lycan hasn't caught up yet after claiming they would, and further lurking only adds to my suspicions.

Good.

As for Lycan, the dreaded

Double Flake

on a non-pressured slot was a surprisingly accurate scumtell in my personal experience*. Coinflip at worst.

(*experience that is 6 years out of date, mind you)

I can get behind a Lycan lynch, or at least a wagon.

But my heart is currently looking Desperado's way. His reactions to my massclaim push are, in my eyes, the scummiest posts in this entire game. Can you see why?

[Socrates]

Simplest scumteam: Desperado/Lycan

Most elaborate scumteam: ABR/Clumsy

[Socrates]

NC, when I gave you links to the interval of the game that made me Town Read ABR, did you click through and read it yourself, or did you just decide to wait for me to fill in the details?

Also give me an example of Desperado "Pushing" an ABR lynch. Multiples would be nice.

If these examples could be found on day 2, that would be even better.

These two.

These are less important now that I'm less inclined to think you are scum hard-defending a townie, but I am still curious as to your responses.

[Socrates]

hm, no. i suppose that isn't exactly it. after massclaim the vig can only get 2 more kills off, so it isn't absolute.

2 more kills puts us at endgame and the vig is no longer as relevant (having the SK question resolved at that point would be nice), as I already mentioned.

BUT:

but i did realize from that ISO that Socrates's allusion to why Desperado is scum and why the scumteam probably has a roleblocker are related to the post i just quoted from Desp.

FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE NOTICES.

[Socrates]

ah. first quote, i remember reading it but that was at a time i was

convinced

you and ABR were the scumteam. i still believe ABR is scum but i don't think you are. i do understand your reasoning from that time, and if i'm remembering correctly i still do, i just don't agree and think he was pocketing you.

I figured I was the third scum you were implying.

The thought occured that he was just trying to impress me, but frankly, I don't think Albert respects me enough as a player to think he would need to jump through all of those hoops just to pocket me. My thinking is that he would only bother playing 'bad cop' with Clumsy after the claim and then backing off and waiting for the rest of the town to weigh in (what pro-town Albert does in that position), rather than just pissing on Clumsy's responses and forcing through the lynch, is if he was actually in the middle of a hard bus and suddenly found himself off the bus. It's equally likely that Scum!ABR would double down on the bus PRECISELY to get that town cred, but he didn't.

The thing that makes me wander back to the bus theory is the way he slowly reworked his scumread on CP day 2 after one member of the scumteam turned up dead. Clumsy's hammer felt marginally unnatural to me, and if Scum!Clumsy did that hammer, I suspect it would be because he was coached to do so. That coach would be Albert.

This is all tin-foil though, and I am not particularly invested in it at this time.

on Desperado: first day he was certainly talking about his scumread on ABR and about the formation of narratives from it. Desp hasn't done anything today besides right at the beginning so that's a dead-end.

Precisely.

[Socrates]

I do want to see a Desperado flip right now. If he is scum, I suspect his buddy is in the lurkers.

Barring that, I want to see how Lycan performs. In a vacuum, I'm okay seeing that slot die.

Alisae was a townread day 1, and my intuition is that he is the type of player who would feel dirty maliciously using his emotional state as a weapon in game as scum*. (Though he still might not be able to contain it as scum, just that he would try harder to do so.)

Can you recap what makes him scummy? Sheeping Albert?

(*Evidence to the contrary will prompt an immediate and serious re-evaluation of him)

I suppose it's time to throw out my vote:

vote: Desperado

[Socrates]

Also,

I also revealed receiving the ball because I wanted people to know that ClumsyPheonix did that. What do YOU make of him doing that?

Town who trusted you or scum p with you (in which case this may or may not be true to begin with). There's no 3rd way about it. Scum will not pass a ball to Town and Town would not lie about receiving a ball. Since we all chose to trust you then you should be both Town.

If Almost is scum, this is him trying to set up a false association with his buddy.

[Socrates]

I'm sorry guys, I'm overloaded with school and work to be trying to keep up with this game. I thought I could do it, but I'm constantly 10 pages behind. I also promised I'd replace out if I got prodded again, as I don't want to be part of the "lurk", burst, "lurk" meta that causes a lot of discontent in games.

@Kuroi @gin-and-tonic, replace me out please

That's a bummer. I certainly can't judge.

[Socrates]

What happened to Lycan catching up last night?

[Socrates]

Desp is an option I guess. I just don't think he's scum for various reasons. Lycan may be, but let's see after he catches up. If he's a no go, I'll be voting Clumsy. The hammer wasn't town driven IMO, and let's be honest, they haven't been going after scum. I liken them to Desperado's play. They're overlooked way too much.

Tywin, do you think SClumsy votes you with Majiffy at the time he did day 1?

[Socrates]

Hiya!

Can everyone link me to where they say why they're voting for who they are? I'm doing some digging on my own but that will help me get up to speed.

I'm phone posting, but I don't think there have been many formal, unified case posts from many people anyway.

I'm voting Desperado because of how he reacted to my mass claim suggestion.

[Socrates]

Yo clumsy! Where you at?

[Socrates]

NC, is your town-read on Desperado really based on the premise that he would be playing better than this as scum?

[Socrates]

Busy busy busy, right when the thread gets active again.

I'll be back in a hour or two. Food first.

[Socrates]

Hiya!

Can everyone link me to where they say why they're voting for who they are? I'm doing some digging on my own but that will help me get up to speed.

I'm phone posting, but I don't think there have been many formal, unified case posts from many people anyway.

I'm voting Desperado because of how he reacted to my mass claim suggestion.

and why is that reaction indicative of scum and not consistent with me being a vt who has deduced that this is a power light game where you claiming unprompted made massclaim optimal fmpov?

Because if there's only one more pro-town power role, then my own argument falls flat (as I noted myself when I put forth the main post). And as Tywin noted, if my goal is only to protect the vig, my claim has already accomplished that goal. The only real benefit to massclaim in such case is to hem in a possible SK, but if you think there's an SK then there MUST be significantly more town power to balance this.

Mafia, on the other hand, would look at the post you initially quoted when you said you were pro-Massclaim and fucking

salivate

at the possibilities if they had a roleblocker or a strongman. Your initial bald ambivalence to my suggestion rather than confusion or curiosity or paranoia before I claimed also is in line with mafiaso behavior wanting to read the winds before committing harder.

If you have a history of devaluing the nightgame, that would help convince me you might actually believe your stated perspective.

[Socrates]

If we wanted, we could lynch the very obvious SK, but I don't think that's a good idea. I rather just let them shoot scum one more time.

This is the scummiest post you have made this entire game. :/

[Socrates]

For what it's worth, the only player in this game I would give enough credit to have the confidence to do the SUPER MEGA BUS strategy is, in fact, Albert. But I don't currently think that's the case, and if he's going that route, fucking let him.

[Socrates]

ill be shocked if both scum aren't already on me

Now that Lycan jumped on your wagon, If you flipped town, I might be inclined to agree, actually.

Why do you townread Almost, though?

[Socrates]

Because if there's only one more pro-town power role, then my own argument falls flat (as I noted myself when I put forth the main post). And as Tywin noted, if my goal is only to protect the vig, my claim has already accomplished that goal. The only real benefit to massclaim in such case is to hem in a possible SK, but if you think there's an SK then there MUST be significantly more town power to balance this.

Mafia, on the other hand, would look at the post you initially quoted when you said you were pro-Massclaim and fucking salivate at the possibilities if they had a roleblocker or a strongman. Your initial bald ambivalence to my suggestion rather than confusion or curiosity or paranoia before I claimed also is in line with mafiaso behavior wanting to read the winds before committing harder.

If you have a history of devaluing the nightgame, that would help convince me you might actually believe your stated perspective.

there's obviously more than one more power role remaining

but i don't think there's a that's so powerful that keeping it a secret (when the people who could have prs have either already softed or can be POE'd) is more important that leashing the vig/sk shot as a group

i don't grok your argument that town needs more power to account for a serial killer. if anything it's the other way around...

Publicly leashing a vig isn't that important, because they will have the town's input for their kill regardless and have an interest in making the most pro-town kill possible.

It is only an SK that we benefit by leashing, but lets just say that that window has passed. Also, I don't actually think there's an SK at this moment. There might! I wouldn't be surprised. But I don't think so.

As for SK balance... eh, I'll give you that, just because I'm out of date on current game balance theory.

[Socrates]

i've townread almost since page three and they haven't done anything to disabuse me of it

You've also apparently scumread Albert since page three, but if you have strong arguments for that read, please link me to them, because I have missed it.

[Socrates]

Faint apathy towards whoever gets lynched + implicitly framing the killer as an obvious SK to others while encouraging them to kill without pressuring them to kill a particular person/set of persons.

[Socrates]

If it wasn't deadline at this point I would just replace out

if I can stay, so can you.

[Socrates]

I am not hammering Alisae over Desperado today.

Game of chicken continues.

[Socrates]

If it wasn't deadline at this point I would just replace out

if I can stay, so can you.

Just for you I will

Wanna hydra someday? I've been thinking about giving it a try.

[Socrates]

Tywin you will be getting your Lycan wagon tomorrow.

[Socrates]

If they don't get shot.

[Socrates]

Tywin you will be getting your Lycan wagon tomorrow.

Lycan is only lynched tomorrow if Desp flips town. It's a waste to wait a day when Lycan' s flip solves Desp' s alignment.

And if desp does flip scum and you suddenly don't get your lycan wagon, that's actually a good thing, right?

[Socrates]

Think about all your scum pairings that look probable. Lycan wouldn't vote his scum buddy when there's a viable counter.

Whose desp' s buddies if he flips scum? Can't be lycan, ABR, Alisae, Clumsy, etc. Whose left, and do they look scummy to you?

Think about it.

I'm not sure Alisae looked like a viable counter when Lycan decided to throw his vote out, and Desp might have looked inevitable. Lycan would still be on the table for me.

NC looks townie, but I await finding out their role before I make final judgment on them.

Almost needs review.

Music box hasn't struck me one way or the other, aside from committing to the Alisae vote early.

Who am I forgetting?

[Socrates]

Good game, folks.

ALMOST SHOULD HAVE EMPOWERED ME!!!!

The town would have crushed the scum team even harder than they did!

I wonder if Albert killed me because he knew I was going to come down on his ass the next day when Desperado flipped town. I sheeped him on Desp because he was responding to my massclaim push like a power-role and his strong but shallow push on Desp meant he was either an investigative role or scum. His day 1 play said he wasn't mafia, so of course he turns out to be third party.

Also, no-one could believably claim vig and plausibly have shot Majiffy other than Tywin and maybe Zefiend.

I am also glad that I successfully pegged NC as some form of nightkill immune without the scumteam figuring it out. I announced giving my ball to them to try to and get the scum to shoot at them if they didn't go after the obvious target (Tywin). Then NC said not to send the ball to them despite seemingly catching my drift, so I shrugged and sent it to Tywin instead.

[Socrates]

Elite bodyguard. I'd have killed Lycan.