Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates' last few posts all reek of role fishing. He may legit be one who likes to sacrifice himself, but that may be for scum over town. Scum gain WAAAY more in a mass claim (with their fake claim roles to boot) over anything town gets. Town gets a doc to protect for a single night, assuming scum don't have a roleblocker and he's even telling the truth. Scum get all the town PRs for no legitimate reason at all. Essentially, it's a bad, bad move for town to claim here.

NC pointing that out gives them TCred in my view. I didn't think about it that way until they mentioned it. I also like this Clumsy argument tbh. I didn't think about the hammer snipe either. This is why I wanted NC to post before I voted. Desperado takes my top scum spot now.

*sigh*

At least acknowledge the argument for why town benefits from massclaiming, even if you disagree with it.

Read up. I looked into it. Town get nothing. Vigi gets one free night before being NK'd. That's it. If scum have a roleblocker, vigi gets zero shots and all town PRs outted for no reason.

I don't understand what argument you're trying to make with it?

[Not Chara]

the argument is scum are locked into their narratives early-game, and have to be careful taking actions that would disagree with it.
it's

something

, but it's not worth giving scum a roadmap of kills.

yes, we can use how the scum react to the massclaim as a vector for scumclaiming, as Socrates said... but i wouldn't know how to effectively do it without falling into wifom.

[Socrates]

Socrates, i won't ask why you chose Albert because it's frankly obvious that he was a major townread.
can you go into more detail as to why that is?

Yes, but it's very complicated and I'm running low on stamina. It has to do with what happened between post 1036 and 1087. I'll get to this tomorrow.

Also Socrates, while you're writing up your argument for a mass claim (which I want to see despite us having claimed), what is your read on our slot?

I am currently viewing you with an intense, stress inducing paranoia.

What you did is

exactly

what I would have theoretically advised you to do if you are scum, but it's also

exactly

the kind of thing I like doing myself as a townie.

I forgot to mention this as I was claiming: The Six Star dragon ball mysteriously arrived in my mail this morning.

might as well answer this too.
are you referring to asking for a read on one's slot, or is it something else you're talking about?

I'm referring to him giving me his dragon ball.

[Tywin Lannister]

If the goal was to protect the vigi for one night, which seems to be what it is, then you've done that job by claiming Socrates. You're certain to be the NK and so vigi is saved for at least one night. Your goal for the mass claim is achieved.

If the goal was to narrow down the lynch pool to VTs, then it doesn't do much. Most of town are VTs and scum will claim it too. I guess the vigi could shoot at the scummiest VT, but that's no difference than no mass claim. Mass claims are more for very large role madness games with few VTs, known set ups, or desperate mylo situations. I don't know any argument for them otherwise that helps town more than scum, especially since we know scum have fake claims handed to them by the mod.

If the goal is to make scum work harder by setting up narratives they can't change, then a mass claim fails anyways. Scum have it easier when they have a roadmap handed to them, and narratives aren't ever remembered or enforced by town. You're all forgetting what happened yesterday. I was just ignored and called a drug addict for calling Majiffy scum, and I kept sayin the exact narrative he was using. Town as a whole aren't smart enough for advanced things that a mass claim requires IMO. Mob mentality rules.

Let me put it this way: when someone lies, who enforced it? When people naked vote, who enforced it? When someone acts scummy, who called them out? Not all of you, that's for sure. People ignore things, miss them, or just plainly don't care all the time. Vifam hasn't said a word since D2 started and nobody cares. Desperado is voting ABR without reason and nobody cares. I ask him why and he ignored it, and nobody cares. Mass claims happen, scum are 'supposedly' stuck in a specific narrative, but who will care when they switch stances? Nobody

[Socrates]

the argument is scum are locked into their narratives early-game, and have to be careful taking actions that would disagree with it.
it's

something

, but it's not worth giving scum a roadmap of kills.

yes, we can use how the scum react to the massclaim as a vector for scumclaiming, as Socrates said... but i wouldn't know how to effectively do it without falling into wifom.

In truth, I've resigned myself to not getting the massclaim, so I'm not going to continue to push it any harder than responding to direct questions, but I'll say this: you can't learn unless you try!

And also that

I

would certainly have a great deal to say.

[Desperado]

He did flip scum, and my entire D1 play was to get him to flip. The things after that aren't so solid. I was almost certain of Majiffy being scum, but I don't have the same certainty with anyone else. Not yet anyways. I was tunneled on Majiffy, and even though others accused me of tunneling D1, I was confident I was tunneling scum. Idk about anyone else. We may need to flip Socrates no matter what, but I need to reread and see what exactly happened.

You still haven't answered my question about why you're voting ABR or if you have anything else to add? Your posts look like you're either trying to shade me specifically, or you're hoping to push me in a direction that you aren't taking yourself. What's the deal with that? Why are you worried about if I follow through with my pre-flip associations or not after my original SR proved to be correct? Am I not allowed to reevaluate after every flip? I'm curious why you haven't. What exactly make you think ABR is scum?

i've stated several reasons for thinking abr is scum and they haven't changed since yesterday so i don't feel the need to restate those reasons

i'm pushing you because i don't think you're reacting how i would expect town who tunneled a widely town/nullread scum and built a couple serious associative tells off of that scumread.

[Desperado]

Oh yes, yes, yes, I am aggressively throwing myself on the chopping block here.

But I am a very self-sacrifice oriented player, and if I can guarentee the Vig's safety tonight, and then he gets to shoot again tomorrow, we ensure 4 pro-town kills in two days and will be down to endgame anyway. A worthwhile use of my role in my view. (I also suck at playing doc.)

i've gone from not caring either way to being in favor of mass claim

i think it's not a very power heavy game anyway. doc + vig + something not super important is probably all we have

[Tywin Lannister]

So that's my $0.02 on mass claiming, but I'm not the only player. Maybe others like it, idk.

As for the rest, I like the hammer snipe thought NC had on clumsy. I also think desperado needs sorting by everyone. Socrates is off the table for Almost and others, so let's see where they move.

[Tywin Lannister]

Of course the scummiest player would be in favor of it after all the ways it hurts town were explained... Lol.

Socrates, you may have inadvertently caught scum.

[Socrates]

Tywin, every time you say I

have

to die tonight, the easier you are making it for scum to not bother killing me because they could mislynch me tomorrow instead.

I'm not asking you to change your mind, but you should backburner that thought for now.

[Desperado]

do you disagree re: town's power?

[Desperado]

ps good luck justifying why i as "the scummiest player" would feel comfortable expressing support for mass claim "after all the ways it hurts town has been explained"

[Alisae]

Socrates who were you on N1?

[Not Chara]

i'm pushing you because i don't think you're reacting how i would expect town who tunneled a widely town/nullread scum and built a couple serious associative tells off of that scumread.

i don't agree with this case, and it's not because of the Tywin townread.

waiting for the player you're pushing to be around to push is pretty basic. so is reconsidering after a period of time.
just looking at Tywin, the focus is obviously on their 1v1 with scum on day 1. they were frustrated at not being listened to so the focus was on players who had seemingly skirted the argument.

i feel like you're looking at an inconsistency and so feel confident in your case, because you have evidence that you can quote and prove. Tywin is obvious town. i concluded as much on my reread of the 1v1. it's simply not a scum fight.

[Not Chara]

Socrates who were you on N1?

ABR.

[Alisae]

If you stated who you were on N1 already I'm super super sry ;~;
pedit: oh okay.

[Desperado]

i don't agree with this case, and it's not because of the Tywin townread.

waiting for the player you're pushing to be around to push is pretty basic. so is reconsidering after a period of time.
just looking at Tywin, the focus is obviously on their 1v1 with scum on day 1. they were frustrated at not being listened to so the focus was on players who had seemingly skirted the argument.

i feel like you're looking at an inconsistency and so feel confident in your case, because you have evidence that you can quote and prove. Tywin is obvious town. i concluded as much on my reread of the 1v1. it's simply not a scum fight.

i'm not scumreading tywin...

[Alisae]

Fuck gimmie like, 20 mins or something I should probably READ.

[Not Chara]

i noted it but forget to mention: i agree with Almost, scum don't get hurt very much by openly buddying Majiffy on day 1. he was in a good position with how the thread reacted to his fight and i'm not confident he would have been lynched without being shot. besides that, i don't agree that scum wouldn't want to take advantage of town players disliking Tywin after that, and joining in.

[Not Chara]

i'm pushing you because i don't think you're reacting how i would expect town who tunneled a widely town/nullread scum and built a couple serious associative tells off of that scumread.

but you're suspicious? don't split hairs.

[Not Chara]

last post was in response to 1641.

[Desperado]

i'm probing his thought process

you applied the word "case" so yes i'm going to split hairs

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin, every time you say I

have

to die tonight, the easier you are making it for scum to not bother killing me because they could mislynch me tomorrow instead.

I'm not asking you to change your mind, but you should backburner that thought for now.

It's not even tonight, but you won't make it to Lylo before being lynched or NK'd, regardless of alignment. If scum willingly ignored you in hopes you get mislynched latwr, then they gamble on you blocking them, and it's not hard to figure out who is probably the next NK target(s). Yes, they could ignore you, but for how long? If too long, then you may not be town. That's my point, and it's more in your favor than otherwise. If town, I don't see you lasting long. Scum fish for the doctor NK from D1 on, so giving them the target means you'll almost certainly die. There's only so much scum can really gamble on and be clever with before just hurting themselves.

Anyways, I'm not too worried about it. My point was said in favor of you being town, since you'd know how suspicious it is to not be NK'd as scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

i'm probing his thought process

you applied the word "case" so yes i'm going to split hairs

Why is it difficult for you to understand? My pre-flips weren't solid, but Majiffy was. Post-flip, I thought about it and tried putting myself in scum's shoes. Majiffy didn't expect to get shot surely, and neither did the other scum, but it's still a bad play for scum to buddy each other. Alisae/Socrates would have to have 100% confidence that neither they or Majiffy was getting lynched anytime soon to feel confident in buddying so hard. They'll all guilty by association after any of them flips. My other thought was that it's entirely possible for scum to have buddied conf biased town, and since nobody was listening to me, it's pretty obvious that town was conf biased. It doesn't take much to butter up a player who already holds the view scum want them to pursue. It's just a slight nudge to get them to do things scum want. Majiffy asked Socratesnto vote me at the end of the day phase, so Socrates obliged. Do you not see that as odd if they were both scum? They'd have just said it on scum chat if there's daychat, and if not, then interacting too closely looks bad down the line during VCA.

Also, Socrates now claims Doctor, so why would I pursue him? He's unlynchible now. His alignment will sort itself out either tonight or a few day phases from now. He won't make it past Lylo. So this leaves Alisae. Do you SR Alisae? If not, why? You're voting ABR, not either Ali or Socrates. Why? You want to push me on two players you aren't voting. Why?

And again, why are you voting ABR? Stop ignoring me.

[Tywin Lannister]

Desperado sure is interested in why I'm not voting two players he refuses to vote himself, while ignoring every single question I send his way. So he gets answers from me and ignores everything else that's said. Sounds familiar.

Interesting stances he's taken here. They're all highly contrary to what normal town would do IMO. He's interested in me over anyone else. He ignores questions he doesn't want to answer. He wants a mass claim after its explained why mass claim is bad for town, while he tried trivializing it as if it's more than okay to lose town PRs (ok for scum sure). He hasn't answered why he voted ABR, hasn't switched any of his reads post flip, doesn't ask any questions from his actual 'SR' and he prods me to vote past SRs over new ones while not actually SRing those players himself. It's just weird. I don't like it and think there's something off. Oh, and he got upset when I said I was waiting for NC to respond before voting them. Why?

So I now TR NC after seeing things I liked, and my sideliner stance on them looks to have been better in thought than practice. Their other posts are good, and with Almost saying they're town, then I'm content to leave NC off the lynch pool today. Desperado on the other hand was a sideliner without good posts to back them up. I want answers from Clumsy sniping the hammer spot and being nervous with NC taking it. I want answers from Alisae on any updated reads aside from desperado. Almost surely will have a new SR after the Socrates doc claim. Zefiend needs to give a reason for his Alisae vote Oh, and Vifam needs to post too. Etcetera

For now though: VOTE: desperado I could be convinced to switch to Vifam, Clumsy (maybe), or Alisae. The rest are TRs or too close to it for me to go there. These are my 4 candidates. NC gets a pass for at least one more day due to recent posts. My real SR on them was based on staying away from the 1v1 over anything else. Alisae would potentially be a better info flip if we went the association route.