Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith you should have a thing in your scum advice bit for faking townslips.

It's the sort of thing you can MAYBE get away with as a newbie, but even here in this game

Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?

was probably such an attempt, and it wasn't especially effective. A well-executed townslip can really help your team, but a newbie game is also structured so that people can improve instead of just so that they can win, and "I won because town bought my townslip" isn't actually effective for development. So I guess I might walk a scum-buddy through how they could try and pull one off, but honestly I'd rather try and teach them (or try to - I admit my scum game is mediocre ) how to play effectively as scum in ways that aren't just newbie-specific.

[mhsmith0]

Note to self; mhsmith postures as town.

Mhsmith is very posturey in general and I find it hard to townread him most of the time in general because of it.

I mean I'm probably not even really trying to do it tho? Maybe that's something I need to work on, idk.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not saying that I would never coach a newbie buddy to townslip but it's not a useful strategy in general.

[PenguinPower]

was probably such an attempt

It was.

[RadiantCowbells]

Just want to point out that no one townread Ulti's slip and everyone townread Dog except Mastina (who was tilted the whole game). That's not a coincidence.

Mafia is more about how you do things than what you do.

[mhsmith0]

In the event that I do play again, are there any obvious things I could do better? I played like complete shit early on in this game, and was never really correct about anything except Chris toward the end.

I don't think you especially played like shit. You made some mistakes, but a lot of people had bad reads and I really don't think you stuck out at all in that respect.

Probably some stuff later game where you were making "game state reads" stuff might be a good area to think on; I think that making reads that are game-state-dependent are probably reasonably likely to push you down into conf!bias land. I think that if you're going to be investing time and energy into that area, you also need to be doing work to ask yourself whether, if your'e wrong, what the game state might look like.

Like, in this case, it was thinkbig/chris instead of alisae/chris, and the day 3 game state was very consistent with that other pairing, since there was no real resistance to an alisae lynch (which suggests that he's probably being bussed if he's scum), and thinkbig/chris were happy to cast meaningless shade on each other while continuing to not actually push for each others' lynches.

In a world where it was alisae/chris, alisae may have behaved similarly to how you observed, but I'm not sure that chris would have. It seems likelier that he'd have been more aggressively bussing for the town credit, working to defuse peoples' suggested connections between him and alisae, and possibly trying to opportunistically swing the lynch to thinkbig, instead of the reverse.

So it wasn't COMPLETELY inconsistent with a possible alisae/chris team, but at the very least the game state shouldn't have been aggressively reinforcing your read there.

[mhsmith0]

Just want to point out that no one townread Ulti's slip and everyone townread Dog except Mastina (who was tilted the whole game). That's not a coincidence.

Mafia is more about how you do things than what you do.

FWIW, I'd note that I briefly townread the ulti thing, but more of a "I don't think actual scum would have made such a badly executed fake town slip" quick reaction, and then when actual content came from the slot (notably the attempted L-1 of mastina) I solidly walked back that read and went the other way.

[RadiantCowbells]

I saw it but I thought it was just a joke

[mhsmith0]

Mhsmith is very posturey in general and I find it hard to townread him most of the time in general because of it.

Could you talk a bit more about this? I don't especially intend to be posturey, so I think it kind of just happens, but if you've got some specific examples (maybe evne more than just this game) that might be a bit helpful for me to keep a better eye on it going forward.

[ChrisOrmie]

Mafia is more about how you do things than what you do.

^ This. So much this.

Tone is often a more useful indicator than content. People's gut works mostly because of the subconcious noticing things that your conscious mind hasn't picked up on yet. It's my favourite scumhunting/mislynching tool.

[mhsmith0]

Mafia is more about how you do things than what you do.

^ This. So much this.

Tone is often a more useful indicator than content. People's gut works mostly because of the subconcious noticing things that your conscious mind hasn't picked up on yet. It's my favourite scumhunting/mislynching tool.

Yes and no. "Gut" is also an easy way for people to be lazy about reads and thoughts. Gut can be a good starting point, but if that's your ending point you'll never convince anyone and you probably shouldn't. This game had a lot of "gut" and "well that's what I think" type reads and pushes, and that tends to be very anti-town because it's incredibly difficult to engage with pushes and reads based on essentially air in a useful manner.

[mastina]

Let's, uh, calm down with the Mastina bashing at this point which has definitely gone too far by now.

"by now"?

Fun Fact:

I was actively reading along with the dead thread.
As in.
Literally every word: every word posted prior to my death, and every word after it.
I never spoke once in there in spite of having access.

There was good reason for my silence.
I suggest rereading what was said in there if you want to understand why.

As the IC, in postgame (not to mention, when dead), my job is to provide constructive feedback.
This environment is not one which is easily fostered at the moment. Namely, defending my play would not allow for that constructive feedback even though it would normally be a part of my explanation in what I was getting at (did well), and what I didn't deliver on (didn't do well). (Tangent, I would also point out that the level of toxicity shown is one reason why I tend not to like spoilered dead threads, and I specifically name my spoilered dead threads "ranting/raving thread". Having perfect information biases quite a lot. Not just in perspective, but also tone. You are going to talk differently with perfect information than you would with imperfect information.)

Talking theory would likely be detrimental at this point. (In spite of it being the main thing I would normally discuss.)
Talking to non-newbies is something I have demonstrated no right to do. (If Blawb, ChrisOrmie, Alisae, ThinkBig, mhsmith, or RadiantCowbells

wanted

me to give them advice I could probably do so, but all indicators are that anything I would have to say would not be of use.)

Giving feedback to newbie players is, however, still among my responsibilities. I will provide this later tonight. (I don't have the time for a proper write-up right now. I like to give write-ups even to newbies who didn't finish the game, in case they come back to view it after the game has ended, which means I've got ~8 write-ups to do rather than 2 or 3.)

[Alisae]

mastina, advice from you is always welcome here
So I would like some.

[Alisae]

Also TB wanted advice on his scumgame.

[mhsmith0]

FWIW, I'd be perfectly happy to receive advice. My thought was that my major flaws with my d1 gameplay were getting into a pointless and prolonged fight and not quite being engaged enough in the game, but it's entirely possible that some other important issues that I've neglected to either recognize or address, and I'd be happy to have them pointed out and try and learn from my mistakes.

I'd also note that the toxicity in the dead thread was essentially just me. I was angry and vented spleen there. I did make a conscious attempt to avoid going over the line, and make active efforts to restrict my criticisms to game play and not personal attacks, but I suspect I failed at that in a few places, and for that I do apologize (my twilight comments in game thread I would say were inappropriate as a particular example, fwiw).

[mastina]

I'm pretty sure that Mastina knows they fucked up this game royally and rubbing it in their faces isn't going to help with anything

Like I said.
Silence from me is veeeeeeeeeeeeeery telling.

You don't see me silent in games where I feel the hate is unwarranted--I will talk along plenty. I will keep speaking. I will weigh in. I will continuously give my feedback and argue my stances even after my death, and well into the postgame.

If I feel

uncomfortable

talking (and while there are other ways to be uncomfortable, fucking up is a reliably large trigger of being that way), then...I don't. I felt uncomfortable in this game's dead thread. I feel uncomfortable in this postgame. I have a job, a duty, to provide postgame commentary and feedback--disappearing would be a final act of awfulness. So I have to talk, I have to give feedback, and I have to try and help, because it would be negligence for me not to. Sure as fuck doesn't make it easier though knowing it's an obligation. Because it's an uncomfortable environment to be in.

"Rubbing it in" in an environment outside of a game thread (postgame, dead thread, elsewhere on the site, game I'm not even a player in) is a good way to make me avoid you, for a myriad of reasons. (Guilt, not wanting to deal with the very strong signs of hostility, etc.)

It is undeniable that there were fuck-ups in my play.
I wouldn't argue it was as bad as has been painted. I could even argue in defense of many things. I feel like explaining the theory behind my play would be something I should do, both from a teaching perspective and a matter of personal pride--but I think (rather than feel) it would if I tried just be a bad idea which is why I don't think I actually will.

Basically, you're more right than not-right in your statement. And even the parts which aren't right aren't exactly wrong, either.
I performed below optimal.
Focusing on that is not, however, something I'd say is healthy.

I'm a firm believer in positive reinforcement--focusing on emphasizing the good, to amplify and improve it.
Not in making people feel shittier than they already feel.

[-Grey-]

@Grey, hope I made you proud with your slot.

You rocked bro, great job.

[ThinkBig]

@Grey, hope I made you proud with your slot.

You rocked bro, great job.

Thanks

[-Grey-]

I must be really shit at pushing my reads.

Lol, you can't even lynch me when my slot is empty.

[ThinkBig]

I must be really shit at pushing my reads.

Lol, you can't even lynch me when my slot is empty.

He could be a cop with a guilty and still couldn't push through with a lynch

[-Grey-]

This is the part where I describe every single game I've played with Grey and say I've read him correctly a lot.

I've also had to smack you around for misreading me a lot.

[Alisae]

This is the part where I describe every single game I've played with Grey and say I've read him correctly a lot.

I've also had to smack you around for misreading me a lot.

;~;

[Alisae]

I must be really shit at pushing my reads.

Lol, you can't even lynch me when my slot is empty.

Pretty much

[Alisae]

Grey Idunno if that's because I can't push reads well enough or if you did such a good job at getting TRs.

[drealmerz7]

Since you are a mod who cares I'll try and keep it in mind in the future.

I'm also a mod who cares