Mini Normal 1890 - Endgame

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: Key

For the reasoning stated yesterday, he wanted that wagon elsewhere, and my VCA on him continues to point at that slot.

He wanted that wagon elsewhere? I see a lot of votes and chatter about the Elena slot. How do you figure?

[Boonskiies]

*cough* Who was right, y'all?!?!?!

[Boonskiies]

Sheep and Key were a 1v1 from yesterday. I actually think it's TvT now.

I'm going to look into massive/ZZZx, with an off chance of Grey.

[Boonskiies]

Nah, Grey's town, haha.

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Key

For the reasoning stated yesterday, he wanted that wagon elsewhere, and my VCA on him continues to point at that slot.

He wanted that wagon elsewhere? I see a lot of votes and chatter about the Elena slot. How do you figure?

I figure because as soon as the wagon got steam he sprang off it, and eventually wheedled back onto it without even remotely addressing me saying he got off it for scummy reasons other than by posting a lot of pictures a day or so before, and then meekly voting again.
He didn't actually want that wagon to go through.

What is your evidence of actual intent for that lynch?
Because I see nothing.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Heck, even show me him pushing the wagon in any real way.

[Boonskiies]

VOTE: Zzzx

I kept getting the feeling yesterDay that he was trying to derail the Elena wagon. This fit into most of my proposed scum teams as well. :/

I think this is the first time I've ever voted Zz on site.

[Papa Zito]

What is your evidence of actual intent for that lynch?
Because I see nothing.

Well, here's what I see in the iso:

1767: You vote Elena - I include this because this starts the chain of events
1768: He asks why
1770: He votes Elena based on Boonskiies 1769
1789: He calls out her replacement request
1813: He reiterates Boon's case
1861: "Cloudkicker's slot can die right now" - his vote is still here
1880: Calls Cloud a liar
1886: Redirects Boon back to Cloud
1841: ALL CAPS wants Elena slot dead
1966: Reiterates commitment to Cloud wagon
1971: Reiterates commitment to Cloud wagon
1973: Requests your vote on Cloud wagon
1983: Votes you. You two had been having a bit of a back-and-forth at this point that I haven't really read
2008: Still would rather lynch Cloud
2015: Revotes Cloud
2022: Says Cloud is scum


In conclusion: Other than a blip of about 30 posts where he shifts his vote to you, after 1767 when the wagon forms his vote stays on the Elena/Cloud slot. In addition the vast majority of his posting after joining the wagon is about wanting the slot dead. I have no idea how you can read this and conclude that you "see nothing".

[Papa Zito]

I'll read ZZZX at lunch.

[ZZZX]

VOTE: Zzzx

I kept getting the feeling yesterDay that he was trying to derail the Elena wagon. This fit into most of my proposed scum teams as well. :/

I think this is the first time I've ever voted Zz on site.

I mean. If any of the lynches that I opposed that flipped town were scum the same could be said so... I really can't defend myself if the attack is non existent

And nah you voted me before for sure =P

Anyway I have a legit read on key that I explained since a while. Thoughts on it?

[Boonskiies]

I don't think key is scum. I see the case and I also see why scum would be pushing for key.

[Cooperative Sheep]

What is your evidence of actual intent for that lynch?
Because I see nothing.

Well, here's what I see in the iso:

I'mma add some thoughts to put it in the perspective I see

1767: You vote Elena - I include this because this starts the chain of events
1768: He asks why

Yup, because at this point he wasn't looking to get her lynched AT ALL

1770: He votes Elena based on Boonskiies 1769

And in explaining it - explains there is no case, so why does he sheep Boon and me, his top scumspect? Because he wants to...investigate the slot? None of his posting supports that - it's an utterly empty push that *looks* icky, meaning he wants it to dismantle the wagon, not support it

1789: He calls out her replacement request

Which is totally NAI and you know it, so does everyone else. It's an empty attack.

1813: He reiterates Boon's case

No he didn't, he just empty stated he was sheeping it - he never showed understanding of the case in any way.

1861: "Cloudkicker's slot can die right now" - his vote is still here

You are ignoring a number of posts wherein he was pushing me while leaving his vote on Cloud during this phase, 1817-19 is nothing but attacks on me

1880: Calls Cloud a liar

Only insomuch as Cloud saying he's town is a lie - he actually just sidesteps his case and doesn't press it.

1886: Redirects Boon back to Cloud

If Boon's vote had moved, I'd agree with you - it hadn't.

1841: ALL CAPS wants Elena slot dead

He also lines up a lynch to me in the same breath

1966: Reiterates commitment to Cloud wagon

Yes

1971: Reiterates commitment to Cloud wagon

No, here he is just now claiming CLoud is his top scumspect somehow, while I'm his second - which makes no sense with anything else he said before, nor with what he did after

1973: Requests your vote on Cloud wagon

No he didn't, and I was already voting Cloud even if you think he was - so, what, was he trying to get more support, or just empty making noise? WHy wasn't he trying to get someone who *wasn't* voting Cloud to move? That's actual pushing

1983: Votes you. You two had been having a bit of a back-and-forth at this point that I haven't really read

I think you should - his posts in that regard are very scummy. Also, if he had been so committed to Cloud, WHY DID HE GET OFF THE *INSTANT*THE WAGON GOT MORE SUPPORT!?! That is the opposite of wanting to lynch Cloud

2008: Still would rather lynch Cloud

Except via vote....

2015: Revotes Cloud

Yes, he did.

2022: Says Cloud is scum

Yes, he did.

In conclusion: Other than a blip of about 30 posts where he shifts his vote to you, after 1767 when the wagon forms his vote stays on the Elena/Cloud slot. In addition the vast majority of his posting after joining the wagon is about wanting the slot dead. I have no idea how you can read this and conclude that you "see nothing".

Your "blip" was maybe only 30 posts, but it was also 3-4 days, so don't try to tell me it was a short spell, he had spent 5 days voting Cloud prior to that and you're acting like every post he made was all about that lynch.

You also didn't discuss how slimy he looked getting back on - he was literally shamed into it, that is just a fact. That is not someone who wanted that lynch.

[Papa Zito]

Well that was quick.

[1]I get half of what you added on about Elena. But honestly speaking doesn't like half of the player list do the same.

[2]Also I don't see that much pressure on Elena that would force her to like you know. Force replace as scum/town/goat/whatever. I take the replace again as NAI

This is in response to Boonskiies' 1782. [1]Is a soft defense of Elena - it translates to "you can't scumread Elena for this when other players do it too!" Which I haven't checked the veracity of but can. [2] is just factually incorrect, Elena was at L-2 at this time, and is again defending a Elena.

I have no reads on Elena, but boon's reason is good so yeah

OK I do townread boon but I still can't read half his posts this game. Can you then tell me what you understood from his posts to prove you are not just trying to make up content right now?

This is the start of his attempt to shift attention to Key.

Key's

Flailing last two pages

is so..


FAKKKEEEEEEEE

I hate fakes

VOTE: Key

(Yes I am voting him just for that. Plus being one of the slots that I don't find towny)

I've listed out most of Key's posting already. There was no flailing, just a tunnel on a scum slot.

I am still repeating my wanting of a key lynch~ Or something

ZZZX lurks most of the wagon but does pop in to half-heartedly throw this out. It really feels like the only time he chose to post was when there was some possibility for change (like when I replaced in), but if Sheep wants an example of a player who wasn't actually pushing something here's a great one.

I'm comfortable voting here.

VOTE: ZZZX

[Papa Zito]

Sheep I disagree with pretty much everything you posted there but I'm not going to bog the game down attempting to counter 50 points. What I will say is this:

* I see nothing wrong with examining other players while leaving your vote somewhere
* I see nothing wrong with wanting multiple slots lynched
* I see nothing wrong with moving your vote
* I see nothing wrong with agreeing with someone else's case

Honestly I think a lot of your problem with the few posts that weren't about Elena/Cloud that day is that they were about you. I strongly suspect that if he'd been having a separate conversation with say MoI and had voted him for the space of 30 posts (days are irrelevant) then you'd have far less problem with it. #YosShrug

You're welcome to keep arguing this if you want but unless you say something grounded in reality I'm not gonna be interested.

[Aristophanes]

RIP Me.

[Papa Zito]

RIP you Ari

Nah, Grey's town, haha.

What brought you to this conclusion Boon?

[Boonskiies]

Grey and I have had A LOT of interaction throughout this game.

[Papa Zito]

Grey and I have had A LOT of interaction throughout this game.

Um. Ok. Which of those made you go from an "off-chance" to town?

[-Grey-]

I have no problem with a key lynch personally, but maybe we shouldn't be rushing into a lynch this early into the day.

[Boonskiies]

I got it through my mind that if someone bussed, it was him, but then I thought about it, and I don't think there was bussing on the Elena slot. Also, he was really buddy buddy with Elena early game in a way that I feel would be kind of weird for Scum Scum. If Grey was scum, I think I'd be lynched by now. Our interactions yesterday into his vote to Elena doesn't make sense to me from a scum perspective.

[-Grey-]

If Grey was scum, I think I'd be lynched by now.

Why do you think that?

You haven't been a threat to me.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Sheep I disagree with pretty much everything you posted there but I'm not going to bog the game down attempting to counter 50 points. What I will say is this:

* I see nothing wrong with examining other players while leaving your vote somewhere
* I see nothing wrong with wanting multiple slots lynched
* I see nothing wrong with moving your vote
* I see nothing wrong with agreeing with someone else's case

1. Nor do I - but I do see a problem in suggesting it suggests a strong desire to lynch a given player.
2. Nor do I, and said nothing to suggest that - i do see an issue with sheeping onto a wagon advanced by your top scumread though.
3. Nor do I, and never said I did - I did say I saw the vote move as, specificaly, having a goal to not see a given slot lynched.
4. Nor do I - I do think his failure to ever explain it, suggests he didn't understand it/didn't care what it was, which supports my stance that it was empty.

I am annoyed that you're dinging me for not using reality while straw manning what I'm saying, your rebuttal doesn't address my actual raised issues.

[Boonskiies]

If Grey was scum, I think I'd be lynched by now.

Why do you think that?

You haven't been a threat to me.

Neither was Elena.

[Boonskiies]

You've had plenty of pushes on me where instead of letting it go you went and stopped it prior to anything happening.

You want me to scum read you instead? Lol.

[-Grey-]

You want me to scum read you instead? Lol.

Of course not, I just didn't/don't understand the basis of your townread.