Open 680.1 C9++ | Endgame

[ThinkBig]

VC 1.8

Official Vote Count

CommKnight

(3): Green Crayons, Umlaut, FireScreamer

Titus

(2): Brian Skies, davesaz

FireScreamer

(2): FrankJaeger, CommKnight

Alchemist21

(1): RoryMK

FrankJaeger

(1): shannon

Umlaut

(1): Narna

shannon

(1): Titus

Not Voting

(2): Alchemist21, Necta

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-05-03 20:06:48)

[Umlaut]

I mean I can't really argue with you if you say it was meant to be sarcastic, but when multiple people are asking you a serious question when trying to get a read on you, sarcasm isn't the answer.

Ircher tried that shit too in the last game.

Was he scum?
Is it alignment indicative?

Shit my bad. I thought he was in a scum slot but he wasn't.

UNVOTE: Shannon

I would be very surprised if this is scum.

[Umlaut]

Also Rory quoting my question reminds me CommKnight never really answered it, we just devolved into arguing the gambler's fallacy.

Why do you think someone in the townbloc is definitely scum this time? I can dismiss "scum last time won't be scum this time" as a common misconception, but I'm not sure how you're getting this one.

[Umlaut]

Can we slow down? I do has work and other games? Is shannon lynched yet?

I just counted and you have 180 new posts on the site in the past 24 hours, 3 of which are in this thread. "I do has work and other games" just isn't enough to account for that kind of discrepancy.

Honestly I'm not as ready as some people are to scumread you for this. While I've never met scum!Titus, I've heard she's pretty crafty, so I don't believe she has a tell this blatant. But... what gives?

[ThinkBig]

Mod Note

Proding Necta. This is necta's first prod of the game. He has (expired on 2017-04-22 15:39:01) to respond to the prod or I will search for a replacement.

[Titus]

Can we slow down? I do has work and other games? Is shannon lynched yet?

I just counted and you have 180 new posts on the site in the past 24 hours, 3 of which are in this thread. "I do has work and other games" just isn't enough to account for that kind of discrepancy.

Honestly I'm not as ready as some people are to scumread you for this. While I've never met scum!Titus, I've heard she's pretty crafty, so I don't believe she has a tell this blatant. But... what gives?

Trying to find gems in crap is insane. I just know shannon's scum.

Like whowver else has 3 votes prolly town too

[Green Crayons]

Well I'm pretty sure Umlaut's Town now.

I mean I can't really argue with you if you say it was meant to be sarcastic, but when multiple people are asking you a serious question when trying to get a read on you, sarcasm isn't the answer.

Ircher tried that shit too in the last game.

Was he scum?
Is it alignment indicative?

Shit my bad. I thought he was in a scum slot but he wasn't.

UNVOTE: Shannon

I would be very surprised if this is scum.

A bit excited, aren't we gents?

[Brian Skies]

I've already made a statement in the thread I wouldn't have as scum.

Not credible if you're the one claiming it. Also, if true, is borderline bannable as a trust tell.

[Brian Skies]

@Umlaut, depending on how you looked at it, it really was me, you, Alchemist, GC and FS. Of course, me being scum at the time I was trying to control the bloc away from scum and cause enough disruption on a TvT wagon that if I were to flip, the other might get looked into a bit further.

I doubt ThinkBig would abandon complete randomization just to make a second game more interesting.

[Brian Skies]

Can we slow down?

Is shannon lynched yet?

[Umlaut]

Trying to find gems in crap is insane. I just know shannon's scum.

Like whowver else has 3 votes prolly town too

You haven't said anything about how you know Shannon is scum and when someone asked you you said "cuz lol."

A bit excited, aren't we gents?

If you're insinuating something here you should spell it out instead of just eye-rolling.

I've already made a statement in the thread I wouldn't have as scum.

Not credible if you're the one claiming it. Also, if true, is borderline bannable as a trust tell.

True that it's not credible (and I think everyone has rightly ignored it) but not true that it's a trust tell or really even close to one, even assuming he's town. I could point out things in any of my town games that I never do as scum, because they're not things that get me townread and so I have no real reason to emulate them in my scum games.

[Titus]

*shrug* the votes talk to me.

There is no good case d1.

[Umlaut]

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

You aren't offering evidence that Shannon is scum, so I'm going to dismiss that read.

[Brian Skies]

True that it's not credible (and I think everyone has rightly ignored it) but not true that it's a trust tell or really even close to one, even assuming he's town. I could point out things in any of my town games that I never do as scum, because they're not things that get me townread and so I have no real reason to emulate them in my scum games.

This is what a trust tell is as explained on the MafiaScum Wiki.

It's not punishable to just say 'I would never do this as scum.' That is just playing to your win condition and is unlikely to be considered self-imposed.

"A Trust Tell is a specialized behavior a player may use to "prove" their alignment in any arbitrary game

via a personal meta argument

. For instance, a player may promise that they are Town if and only if they actually are Town in a game, and will use that self-imposed rule when they draw Town as an argument to confirm their alignment whenever they see fit." ~The Wiki

What FS is saying is that he cannot be scum here because he did something only a town him would do (what that is, I have no idea, but he insists that he did it). This falls under the first criteria of the trust tell definition that he's 'insisting he only does something as one alignment.' However, this is just one game. But if it happens over the course of multiple games, then it becomes punishable as a 'trust tell' or a 'trust tell in the making.' And there are players that have been punished for things like this (See: Varsoon).

I'm not saying that he has a trust tell, just that he needs to knock it off because the Skittles don't take stuff like this lightly.

[ThinkBig]

Mod Note

Checking to see if any site wide rules were broken. I am quite strict in following all site rules and will not hesitate to modkill you or force replace you if you are breaking any rules.

I don't

think

any rules were broken, but it is borderline and so I am checking with the list mods. Keep on going while this gets resolved.

[Umlaut]

Welp Firebringer is town.

[Umlaut]

FireScreamer.

[CommKnight]

Here's the problem with your questions Umlaut. They take posts too literally. Titus nor I can know 100% (assuming she's town as well) who scum are. In fact it's Day 1, the only ones who know who scum are 100% are... scum.

You're asking me how I know someone in last game's town bloc is definite scum. Well it can never be 100% we could all be town this game and it could be a game full of lurker scum allowing the town to go at each other. However, that is counter intuitive. I see FS postings as off. Even if only slightly. I can't point at something and be like "Ah ha, he's 100% scum, let's lynch him". I can only state that his reaction thus far hasn't been quite what I'd expect from him as town again.

If you got something better to bring to the table, then bring it. But you haven't been sticking your neck out for anything aside from questioning. (Legit, questions might 'seem' townie. But to me if they aren't backed by you taking a few gambits and risks, it tells me you're playing TOO carefully. Which can be a sure sign of scum play-wise).

I do find it funny how my two SR's are 2/3 of the people voting me currently. XDD I doubt that BOTH are scum, but they both seem scummy to me and I will laugh if they were the only two anti-town in the entire game.

[CommKnight]

Welp Firebringer is town.

He sure as hell wasn't town in the game I played with him. I'll nail both Fires for it. Also that mod post doesn't confirm his alignment. If he's scum doing it, it's the same result.

[Umlaut]

If I ask
"What makes you so sure of X?"
and you answer
"Well of course I don't

know

X 100%, no one can be 100% sure of anything except scum, I don't have to be 100% sure just to say what I think"
then you haven't actually told me why you're so sure of X, you've just evaded the question.

You're asking me how I know someone in last game's town bloc is definite scum. Well it can never be 100% we could all be town this game and it could be a game full of lurker scum allowing the town to go at each other. However, that is counter intuitive. I see FS postings as off. Even if only slightly. I can't point at something and be like "Ah ha, he's 100% scum, let's lynch him". I can only state that his reaction thus far hasn't been quite what I'd expect from him as town again.

This still doesn't explain anything. You're saying

• You think someone in the townbloc is scum, because you think it's unlikely that no one in the townbloc is scum, because that would mean no one in the townbloc is scum.
  
• You think FS is scummy, because his posts are off, because he's not acting like town.

You're not explaining anything.

[Umlaut]

I understand why you'd think someone who was town last game is more likely to be scum this game.

What makes you think someone who was

townread

last game is more likely to be scum this game?

I don't care if it's 100%, I don't care if it's 50%, I don't care if you're absolutely certain or highly confident or just barely moved. Why do you think this is even a thing?

[CommKnight]

Again, you're taking it too literally and skipping over the parts that help make it make sense. Not sure if intentional or if you're reading what you want to read into me.

- I've made a list of 2 people I won't lynch today due to probability (TODAY ONLY).
- I've TR'd two people.
- The other 8 people I'm up for lynching if there's a good case on them.
- Instead of building said case on them, you worry about defending FS. Which honestly started as a simple SR as scummy behaviour. But mixed with your defense of him. I'm willing to bet more on there being one scum in the two of you if you aren't both scum.

If you don't like my SR of yourself or FS, feel free to make a case for something. But worrying about me providing burden of proof (when there is none currently for anyone) is itself a fallacy. In fact, your entire thing and vote on me is that I don't have a solid case to vote FS. (Which shouldn't worry you unless you somehow know for certain he is town). Which I could argue the same back against you both. You got no real case. Just votes on me for voting FS and suspecting him. Which IS an OMGUS vote.

Back when I was going on about the probability numbers, you guys are soo worried I won't lynch into two other people (and myself included). I'm not enforcing this rule on others. But *I* won't vote in the pool. (Which of course I'm in the pool, I'm not going to vote myself. Herp a derp).

But yet you keep pushing this "Why won't you lynch X?" crud. Unless you got a case against either of them, then it's wise to drop it. Because why aren't YOU lynching X? Again, I have TWO people I'm not voting for DAY ONE. This is what you guys blew out of proportion because I said the random probability is lower on them being scum than others. Then you get antsy about a vote on FS. Again, unless you got some reason to solid TR him, you should want more information from the slot as well, should you not? Or are you going to claim mason buddies? Otherwise your defense of the slot as a townie makes zero sense. You should want to sort EVERYONE, but you're using past-game-confirmation-bias to be against my style of play while writing off the difference in FS now play compared to last game play.

Do I need to spell it out any clearer? So far you and FS have been the most scummy in my eyes and it's only getting worse. Want to prove me wrong? Then let us get more info, or you find a good case for me to look at. Because currently I only see the one valid case of your defense of FS and overreaction to initial reads. Part of it was gut, but now it's your guys' play thus far.

Fastposted by Umlaut. Well as I've stated in this post, it's leaving the probability phase and entering a more reaction phase. I had nothing solid to go on now, but now I believe I do. (Read the above paragraphs).

[CommKnight]

@Umlaut. I mean really think about what happened so far. Joke Phase > I create a list of people I TR, won't lynch, neutral about and two people I'm suspicious of. Partially using probability in my case. > The two people I happen to SR both vote for me because they don't like where my suspicion is placed. > They keep asking for something solid, with one always mentioning my "town cred" as a reason he'll win a 1v1. In fact if he were town, why would he already be thinking of a 1v1? I never mentioned one. > I then gain a read of a team dynamic. Maybe wrong, but maybe right and if right, it was due to a lucky guess from probability followed by reactions.

But I'm done with this for now, it's just us posting at the moment and it adds nothing to the game since you're going to keep reading only what you want to read of my posts and ignoring the reasons behind them or trying to over complicate them. I want to know what those who HAVEN'T spoken really yet on it on what they think. You should be wondering that as well if you're interested in finding the scum because we can't let others hide from this.

[Umlaut]

@FireScreamer

What's the thing you've said that you would never say as scum?

[shannon]

Can we slow down? I do has work and other games? Is shannon lynched yet?

I just counted and you have 180 new posts on the site in the past 24 hours, 3 of which are in this thread. "I do has work and other games" just isn't enough to account for that kind of discrepancy.

Honestly I'm not as ready as some people are to scumread you for this. While I've never met scum!Titus, I've heard she's pretty crafty, so I don't believe she has a tell this blatant. But... what gives?

We are not lynching me. That's all I have time to say before I go to work. Be good and post lots x