Spring Fever (Endgame)

[jjh927]

Hullo! The S in RVS stands for shitposts, right?

The main thing I picked up is that Gork is trying to insult the skill of players who scumread him rather than their arguments. On the flip side of this, all arguments thus far have been based on shitposting because we're early RVS, and a pre-game encounter in chat seemed to indicate that this is, regrettably, his playstyle.

I'm willing to be the little spoon because I want me a PT.

PEdit: Holy shit that's a lot more posts

[jjh927]

Hey Alisae.

Reciprocate: Hug

Transcend, why did you just consume and spit out my post

[jjh927]

Did someone say contentless? Did someone else say shitposting?

Hapless child, stares at his mother,
A provider, who disappears.
Newly longing, newly lonely-
Oh where has she gone? "Peekaboo!"
There! But too soon, she bids adieu.
And he is left there to ponder
brevity, though by no known name,
Reality, in oxymora-
Each beauty snatched by the dark,
And each flower tainted by fungi.
Doesn't see the face. Just the hand.
Can't imagine what can't be seen.
Reality, in - - "Peekaboo!"
"Uuh guu guu, weeuhbuweeow!"
"My child, you have yet to learn of pain-
Because darkness now's not darkness again."


I've been quiet for a while.

[jjh927]

Now onto real shit- why are so many people townreading Bella at that point in the game? 383 was, imo, the only post that could indicate alignment, and Frog posted that he thinks she's town 2 minutes after that.

These things you look for, Frog- point them out.

[jjh927]

So it's a meta-read? You're essentially saying "If she was scum, it would be obvious." but in a somehow positive way? That does not stand as an argument for me, and I don't think it should for anyone else.

[jjh927]

Woah, I'm gonna need more time with the actual posting here to put some reads together, but I'm suspicious of the Eddie wagon. Not because I disagree that Eddie's behaviour is a bit scummy, because it is, but because of how the wagon has formed.

I think Frog townread Bella for a combination of meta/familiarity and, more importantly, being on the Eddie bandwagon. I'm suspicious of Frog and Random from that wagon.

[jjh927]

Well, Alisae, you're the only one here who knows anything about my playstyle.

I just asked Frog a question and got a fairly respectable answer from it, but I'm not completely convinced so I need to figure out where to go from there. I don't know if Random is about right now and I only decided I scumread him after reviewing the wagon.

[jjh927]

On Random: My read is based on 359, primarily. I don't think he actually gave us any information, but he was certainly concise and direct about it as though he was doing so.


And Frog, don't dismiss me like that. You had valid reasons when you actually gave me them, and you know full well that is not the use of meta reads that is making me scumread you.

[jjh927]

Wait, how am I the one shooting down anyone? Frog dismissed my argument as something it wasn't. He's being passive aggressive here. I don't think he's trying to make me seem like I'm scum, but he's definitely trying to discredit me as a bad town.

Ali, you're the only person in this game I can meta-read and the only time you've been scum, you were SK and the way our little exchange went forced some differences in play. But I'm going to townread you for your total lack of subtlety in general here.


I'm actually townreading Bella because Frog reasoning is pretty solid and nobody has challenged his ability to meta-read Bella. I don't trust my opinions on the hydras, because I've never played with hydras before and there being 2 people fucks with the way I tend to read.

There's been a lot of shitposting that I'd have to wade through 2-3 more times in order to really get a feel for everyone, and we're getting into an actual conversation here with plenty of IRL time to go, so I'm not sure it's worth doing that.


PEdit:

Vote: Eddiebyte

I no longer scumread Frog.

[jjh927]

Wait, that puts Eddie on L-1. I'm gonna calm my shit and

unvote: Eddiebyte

but I find that shiqf vote to be an opportunistic and vain attempt to start a counterwagon.



PEdit: Ali, it's not a metaread. Please think of a point at which you were far less subtle than I am being right now, noting that I am being pretty damn unsubtle about this.

[jjh927]

That's not why I'm unvoting. I don't want a REGULAR hammer at this point in the game because I would like some more conversation.

[jjh927]

My reasoning for the Eddie vote is right after the vote. It's the shiqf vote and failure to the valid criticisms of his play that caused him to have so many votes on him. I didn't realise at the time he was L-2.

And again, seriously, my read on Alisae is not so much meta based, more a post with a total lack of subtlety that I don't believe I should bring up again.



Ali meta-reading me is amusing. I adapt my playstyle. The principal difference overall is level of skill. When I was playing town off-site. I was pushing really blatantly obvious misplays. When I was scum off-site, I was able to hide in the convenient neighbourhood and manipulate without any real risk of people catching on. There is no way I could reliably manipulate people I do not know in any way. Actually, I do know something about you lot. A lot of people seem to think this is one hell of a playerlist, which implies most players here are at least pretty good at the game. I'm not going to try shit.


PEdit: True, I'm not at all used to this climate. With hindsight, Frog was using that to discredit my scumread of him. I disagree strongly with his methodology but it's not inherently scummy, and presumably especially so here?

PEdit2: Eddie, what is your read on me? "Interesting" is not a read.

[jjh927]

Oh, also I missed the transcend unvote. My vote actually put Eddie back to L-2.

Gonna be honest- I didn't check the votecount before I voted and that was a mistake.

PEdit: So I do. You scumread me based on the vote/unvote.

What does scum!me stand to gain from that interaction?

[jjh927]

Oh man, look at all the towncred I got from the unvote!

[jjh927]

What do you think needs to be done, Heartless, and why don't you start doing it?

[jjh927]

You said "not many town things are being done". Why bring that up if you don't think there's an issue in our gameplay?

And no, I don't see your insinuation, unless it's that people are erring on the side of that which is light and fluffy with regards to reads. And if so, do tell.

[jjh927]

I was suspicious of Frog because on a similar line of reasoning but he's a light townread now for other reasons.

If you want to make a case against someone then do it. Cultivating general suspicion is not a town play in my eyes, and if you want to spin it to making sure everyone has their wits about them then please assume people are quite attached to their wits unless you have a reason to disagree.

[jjh927]

Quick question: do the PTs for bonds happen immediately after the second person submits their bond to the first, or do they start at the end of the day?

[jjh927]

How desperate are people for bonds? Are you asking people seriously or in a shitposty manner?

In general, my first thoughts are that you might want to make it clear whether you're going active or passive, and that there's got to be a weird one-way trust thing going on. The passive member needs to townread the active. The reverse does not have to be true.

On the other hand, you might not want to make that clear because roleblocking and such.

I guess there's a temptation to be in it for the ride, so to speak. Ignoring that euphemism, it looks like a pretty fun mechanic and, when all's said and done, I for one would like a PT.

[jjh927]

I'm pretty happy, actually. It's my default state.

Alisae, I actually townread ThinkBig just because he's deaf. He can't fake someone else not being able to post, right? So I have no reason to doubt that this is fact. Next up, we have to consider why a scum role would have this modifier, and I just can't see it happening. It smells of balance changes to make a town role weaker. I don't really think it would make scum any weaker.

[jjh927]

NAI?

I don't see why he'd be deaf if he was scum is all. This isn't an irrevocable read. I just have no interest in pushing them for anything at this time, not that he can really be pushed for anything until he posts more.

[jjh927]

I mean I'm not familiar with the abbreviation and can't find it what it means from the internet.

Titus has been happily shitposting for some time now. I assume this is how she normally plays day 1? Nobody has flaffed it. Anyways, she seems quite happy to go with a passive bond and has made no indication that they would benefit from being the active. There was some random voting before the Eddie bandwagon.

All in all, this amounts to be not having the faintest idea at this point in time and I'm not going to pretend I have a read here.



And Alisae, it can definitely be faked. If mafia wanted to pair up without linking to each other in order that one of them got buffed until one of them died, it would be a pretty nice way of doing it. I do believe you though.



Pedit: Woah thinkbig with the claim. That's a confirmed town now, right?

[jjh927]

Yeah, I can't see any way that he could fake that. But why have you claimed now, TB?

[jjh927]

But this is unfakeable, Alisae. If he passively bonds with someone, I will now expect a night chat the night after. In other words, if he was lying, he would be lynched day 3, correct?

[jjh927]

Tonewise, I don't have enough posts here to know normality. There is nothing different throughout. He is keeping to the same tone and the same story.

He is, however, wrong about the no-bonding being easily provable, for obvious reasons.

PEdit: It would be town utility, wouldn't it? I guess I'm assuming things are predictable like that. Maybe I am wrong after all.

[jjh927]

Important question is why claim now? I'd like that answered asap.

PEdit: I assumed it was town utility. I guess I can't make that assumption.

[jjh927]

It's consistent, though. He's not completely certain that his role is the way he understands it. Twice.

[jjh927]

What's scummy about his tone rn? I'm not picking it up and I use tone as one of my main tools.

Also, what does NAI mean? You still didn't fill me in on that.

[jjh927]

Alisae, if you want to justify things on tone, you need to be able to point out what's weird about the way things are being said.

[jjh927]

You're saying it comes off as fake. What gives you that impression?

[jjh927]

"Fake" is not a tone. Aggressive is a tone. Soft is a tone, harsh is a tone, mayonnaise is not a tone.

Thinkbig's has been informative, generally speaking. What he has said has been slightly contradictory, that is, "I was thinking about claiming ok full. However, I still have a few questions about my role. " followed by the claim. The "However" indicates that he was not going to claim. That, and the testability of Alisae's negative utility, are both contradictory.

The combination of an informative tone and a contradictory nature is not a great one, but I don't think it points to scum in this case. I need to see him talking about reads before we get anywhere with tone.

[jjh927]

Who's that directed at, Gork?

[jjh927]

I like waiting for people to give an inkling that they have reads before I start reading people, because I believe tone is a really important tool for scumhunting and you can't really analyse tone without knowing what people think about other people.

You're not looking for any specific tone by itself. You're looking for one that is itself out of place. I don't think Alisae has much of a case here, and I've been able to match his trains of thought in the past.

[jjh927]

Titus, what's your read on Alisae? Other reads would be nice too, but this is one I'm most interested in.

[jjh927]

Okay, so I assume that translates as you townreading Alisae. Got it. You seem insincere but you clearly know the game, how to push, how to respond. Nobody's called you on this so I assume it's par for the course for you. So why do you townread Ali? What is the extent of the read?

And the real question, of course, is do you have your own reasoning for the ThinkBig vote?



PEdit: So, Alisae, you're basing it off a lack of emotion? That would be the informative tone. And I don't find that suspicious because he has given us actual information with it. I think he's commenting on the number of pages because he needs to read them all and wants to affirm that.

[jjh927]

Titus, I'm only going to ask you this once.

Are you a care bear?


PEdit: Oooh, Titus is scumreading me

[jjh927]

If you want me lynched then make a case rather than shitposting, please.

[jjh927]

On Alisae's meta-analysis:

We have a 5/8 in the actual stats there, or 62.5%. You could get better reads by assuming he's always town.

[jjh927]

Titus' 773 there is scummy as anything.

Or at least confused. I could assign people numbers and throw darts at a dartboard and get 3 scumreads. Make a case or you're just going to slip into nothing. Coasting is not town play.

PEdit: You think you're helping town here, Titus? If you've set traps I'd like to see them, because if they exist they're bullshit and have caught at least 1 town. Justify your play.

[jjh927]

vote: Titus

Why do you think I'm scum, Titus?

[jjh927]

Gork, are you doing a bond yet? Frog's post ages ago suggests my other townreads are not options.

[jjh927]

To this forum, yes. To mafia, no.

[jjh927]

Somewhat of a disadvantage with the whole bonding thing tbh. A lot of bonds seem to have been formed on out-of-game friendships

[jjh927]

SC2 mafia was my first experience of mafia, and I played that a hell of a lot. Not like forum mafia, but it's closer to forum mafia than ToS ever will be to it.

I've played plenty of these kinds of games IRL, too. It's one of the defaults for my friend group. Obviously, days are shorter, games are less complex, and there's more body language involved, but that's still a thing.

My forum mafia experience is limited. I've only played offsite. I don't believe the rules permit me linking other sites. I have played with Alisae there, and he brought me here.




IRL I'm studying psychology at university and have a penchant for scientific method and logic, if you want to factor any background in.

PEdit: JJ the cat's fault, not JJ the me, right? I WAS eating tuna when you made that post.

[jjh927]

I haven't got a read on Aelita right now because I don't think they've posted much? For a bond to actually work, at least one person needs an actual read on the other person.

[jjh927]

Yes, but without firm reads I can't see an agreement being made.

One player has to be able to trust the other with an enhanced action, while losing their own, otherwise neither player gets an action. That means 1 player has to townread the other, but it doesn't have to be reciprocated. In fact, you could scumread a player and still bond with them, as if you fail to reach an agreement or are the active, you are essentially roleblocking them. But you need a read or it's not worth doing imo.

[jjh927]

Arcade.



PEdit: But ThinkBig promises a non-talking bond with positive results for town. Someone needs to bond with him, regardless of his alignment as he will have to be passive.

[jjh927]

Christ, I haven't played SC2 mafia in a loooong time. I think it would have been mainly around WoL and early HotS when I did play though, if I'm recalling correctly. I stopped because queue time started to become inordinate.

[jjh927]

Have we shitposted with this enough or do we have room for Exhibit A-2 Electric Boogaloo

[jjh927]

ThinkBig, you're clearly here. Do you have a real answer to the questions posed?

Vote: ThinkBig

[jjh927]

I really need to shower because I smell, but I also want to stay tuned. Do we have an ETA on this post of epic proportions and can we have some lift music?

[jjh927]

Okay, an hour means I can shower and come back expecting a post. That works for me.

See you when I don't smell

[jjh927]

TB has done nothing but shitpost since he revealed his role. I still think that would probably be a town role btw, but the way he's handled people voting him and asking him questions has been shit.

HOWEVER, I don't think we should lynch him today, scum or not. His role can only be beneficial to town. We just need to decide on a town member to pair with him to get that person a free active pairing in the bond and the ability to talk in night 2.

[jjh927]

Oh yeah I'm done with my shower

[jjh927]

I'm gonna

unvote

and go to sleep.

Well, unless anyone wants to ask me anything before I do. 5 minutes or so.

PEdit: Are replacements due to this kind of crap common here?

[jjh927]

I don't want to go to sleep with a vote active, and I remembered I was currently voting TB. I don't actually want to lynch TB unless I have reason to believe he was lying about his role.

[jjh927]

Gork, that's not it. If he's scum, but told the truth about his role, then it's still useful to town.

[jjh927]

The fuck is happening with TB? Is this a meta self-deprecating ATE? I'm with you on calling it unethical, Frog. The question is, would scum!TB destroy every last shred of future credibility with a last ditch attempt to sway the town with... this? I think TB is just a horrendously frustrated town now. If he actually pulled this shit off as scum, what would be the meta-consequences?

[jjh927]

Fire, that's only scummy if you first accept that TB is scum. And if TB is scum then why would scum!me defend him now? My reads are subject to change and I am going to inform you of such changes when they are relevant.

[jjh927]

I'm october 8th.



And what, you're saying that I would defend town!TB for towncred? I assure you, I do not know TB's alignment but I take his breaking down to be sincere and personally believe that it would be worse on so many levels to break down like that as scum. I do not think he is a terrible person, as Frog seems to be implying. If you townread someone who is on the chopping block, you should always speak up.

[jjh927]

I throw questions when I'm not sure of the answers.

Seriously by the way, would/will these actions have meta-consequences?

PEdit: I think everyone got the other crumb

[jjh927]

Am I good to sleep now or are there any more questions?

[jjh927]

In general I guess scum could have a genuine AtE, yeah. I assume scum probably do have some genuine breakdowns from time to time. But this whole thing reeks of poor play rather than scum motivation. From scum, this would be calculated, unethical and pathetic. From town, it's just kinda pathetic.

I guess I'm looking ahead a little, too. Say he flips scum. You get everyone on the wagon patting themselves on the back with how obviously scum he was. Say he flips town. You get everyone shitting on him for how obviously scum he was. There are things we still need to consider.

Most of all, could scum!TB actually write out a genuine-seeming AtE?

[jjh927]

Anything else before I sleep?

[jjh927]

Frog, I was responding to criticisms, I want to sleep, and the scumreads I want chased down right now are Titus and Random, neither of whom are currently present.

[jjh927]

Titus, why are you so insistent on this bullshit mishmash of coasting and playing the game?

You're basically using your desire to coast as an excuse not to give legitimate reads. That does not fly. You are not allowed to pretend you're hot shit and that you can vaguely allude to posts that anyone could totally find scummy behaviour in. People haven't been reaching the same conclusions as you with that so make a case.

Vote: Titus

[jjh927]

What's the case on shifq right now? I remember there was a decent looking one when Eddie had a wagon on him. Eddie's vote on him at the time had an opportunistic vibe to it, but then if you assume Eddie is town then that's irrrelevant.

[jjh927]

She's tunneling in a self-aware manner. That's her thought process. She picked up some reads partway in her trail of happiness and has stuck with them ever since. She has 5 scumreads despite there still being a number of people who haven't posted that much.

Alisae- you're not challenging her on it. It's gameplay that is not by itself alignment indicative, but the strategy itself is anti-town. Pro-town behaviour when you have reads like these is to case it. Keeping this kind of stuff in your head is not okay, because being able to accept counterargument is a core of this game. Doing this as town is poor play. Doing it as mafia is a solid way to mask yourself as a bad town and get ignored. Titus herself said this is not something that is her usual gameplay, so I don't get how your first point can hold traction.

Oh, and dismissing that as frustration is not going to work. It's a point. It's a description of what she is doing.


PEdit: Where did I look for permission to scumread you?

[jjh927]

Already googled it. You can have a link back. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ad_iram

[jjh927]

Geez, that Gork wagon looks pretty hot right now, maybe I shou. . .

Wait a minute! There's no vote there!

[jjh927]

Titus, I googled it because you said you used a Slayer's gambit and I didn't know what that meant.

[jjh927]

Now, where did I ask for permission to scumread you?

[jjh927]

You are suggesting I would not have had time to read the posts again, google "Slayer's Gambit" and read the wiki page in the 3 minutes between making the post and Alisae dropping the link?

What reason do I have to lie?




PEdit: Oh god, that post. Looking back, I have no idea what I meant when I said "flaffed" because I am aware "flaffed" is not a word. I think I meant "challenged"? But no. I had no idea how to read you at that time. That's honest. I'm not going to pretend I have a read when I don't have one.

[jjh927]

If you want me to expand, Titus, the second 2 things of the 3 point more to town behaviour, while the 1st was starting to seem scummy to me.

[jjh927]

I'm waiting for some responses from Titus, or for Random to catch up.

[jjh927]

Unvote: Titus

You're tunneling and scum would not be this obvious about it.

[jjh927]

Pretty much. Scum have an interest in being able to continue tunneling on people without making it this obvious. Titus pretty much only has one option here, which is to become self-aware.

[jjh927]

Titus' push here comes off as nonsensical and sincere, so I'm going to move on to pushing other scumreads.

[jjh927]

Random is the one I want to chase down next, when he's caught up.

[jjh927]

I don't know what that one means and it's not on the list.

[jjh927]

Oh right.

Read my iso. He's basically just stayed as a scumread.


I want to try and get a read on everyone.

[jjh927]

I was trusting Frog on that read, since he seemed pretty sure he was the best person to do it. I don't like trying to question more than 2 people at once, but I go by process of elimination on who seems scummy and who I have centre null.

Scum can tunnel too, but they know everyone who's town is town and need to be able to tunnel without it being really fucking obvious they're tunneling or they lose the entire purpose of doing so. Although I must admit, I was expecting Titus to become self-aware right about now.

[jjh927]

I don't think we have enough from Random to have a good read on him, which is why I want to push him a bit. It's 359 and the Eddie vote that I'm most interested in.

[jjh927]

Alisae, I'm not going to hunt when he's not here. I am going to wait until he's caught up and actively talking.

If I ask a question, and then we have another 2 pages or so after it by the time he's caught up, he's under no obligation to answer it and has ages to think about his response.

[jjh927]

It's about the amount of time he has to answer the question, and it not being a back-and-forth conversation. I need that to hunt.

[jjh927]

Shit, that does sound pretty bad Alisae. Uuh, maybe you shouldn't be playing mafia in school? Because you know, school's for learning. Tbh, you ought to be more inconspicuous when you're listening to music anyway. Learning is important. Education is important.

[jjh927]

Who is mislynch bait in this playerlist?

[jjh927]

Titus, ThinkBig is the biggest lynchbait of all. I'm trying to trigger introspection here.

[jjh927]

It's airtight as shit, which makes me think he's walking lynchbait rather than a shit tier scum.

[jjh927]

Bella, talk me through your opinions on Eddie right now.

[jjh927]

Okay, so there are two possible reasons scum!TB would behave like this. 1. He's utterly shit at the game. 2. He wants people to think he's utterly shit at the game, so people view him as lynchbait and don't lynch him.

The second is not a strategy that will realistically work, and in the case that it did hints at him being a better play than I will believe him to be.


Now, town!TB only has one reason: He's shit at the game.

Throw that in with the genuine frustration on his quit post and there's something there. He did kinda let himself be bullied back into continuing play though, which detracts from it somewhat.

[jjh927]

If anyone legitimately scumreads me, please don't hold back on pushing for a day 1 lynch because I'm new. Make a case.

[jjh927]

Well okay then. Now wouldn't be a great time anyway, since I'm about to do the food thing.

[jjh927]

Eddie, actually Alisae had already voted shiqf at the time iirc. I saw it as your best counterwagon option.


And if you keep going, I no longer scumread Titus because it feels like town tunneling rather than scum. Now, at least. If you want me to talk about my thought process at the time I guess I could indulge? But yeah, I retracted my vote. You won't miss it if you look at my iso.

[jjh927]

Vecna, try catching up before you do stuff.

[jjh927]

Yeah, inclined to agree there. I really want to know what's up with those but I, as with anyone else, want to have a back-and-forth conversation rather than just seeing him chip in a post every now and again.

PEdit: Hullo.

[jjh927]

McMenno, while you're about-

Why do you townread Dunnstral, and when did you first pick up said read?

[jjh927]

I think he might have been shitposting. I want to wait till he's caught up and I'm hoping he's gonna be more open to questions than TB.

[jjh927]

Did McMenno stop being about?

[jjh927]

Dunnstral, what's your read on McMenno?

[jjh927]

Talk me through him then. Have you just not analysed him enough? I'll settle for analysis of actions in general rather than a read, if it suits you.

[jjh927]

I really want to hear justification for his read on you.

[jjh927]

I need to actually go to sleep soon, because I need to be able to wake up.

McMenno, when you reappear, I want an answer to my question.

[jjh927]

I'm out of action on my computer for a bit. My monitor broke last night but hooray for Amazon prime - normal service will resume some time tomorrow. Posting on my phone will not be as frequent.

And Vecna, yours is an interesting situation. I'd offer to bond but I want a PT I can talk in, and I'm fairly sure Aelita was in the same position. That's why I find it a little odd that Aelita would offer to bond with you.

Speaking of Aelita,

Vote: Aelita

[jjh927]

I think there's something in the Dunnstral-McMenno interactions that's fishy, but can't tell you what. Call it a gut feeling atm. But I don't think that McMenno and Dunn are both town. I'm leaning towards scum!McMenno attempting to buddy town!Dunnstral but I'm not certain on it.

[jjh927]

Wow I reek of uncertainty right now. Could someone ask me my reads on me?

[jjh927]

Hmm, my read on jj? Well, in my experience playing with him, I've had a 100% read accuracy and played every single game he's been in- though whenever he's been scum, I've also been scum, so I don't have a good meta-case there without falling prone to confirmation bias.

He's town though; we live in the same house and his computer was on and I read his role PM.

[jjh927]

He definitely threw out a townread on you if you check his iso, but recently dismissed it and I'm not buying it.

Also I might be being stubborn and insisting I'm seeing something where I'm not because I wanted to ask you about your reads on each other for hours and I hardly got shit from the replies.

[jjh927]

Where's Titus on your readlist there?

[jjh927]

Wait what did I miss the previews somehow. Mb

[jjh927]

Titus, do you still maintain your view of events with regards to the slayer's gambit stuff? Because I know it's totally bullshit. I googled slayer's gambit after my post with the PEdit referring to the post you made about the gambit and before when I saw Alisae's post linking me to it. I thought the reasoning behind your push there was obviously shite.

Chain of events is as follows:

-You made the post.
-I was about to post and got previews so I PEdited and posted.
-I reread posts.
-I googled "slayer's gambit".
-Alisae made a post that would be helpful to someone who can't google.
-I reply in an admittedly slightly rude manner.

You can go at this ace attorney style if you want.

PEdit: How the hell do I even know who the lhf is? I know none of you. I find it highly unlikely that everyone I've been pushing could be considered lynchbaity unless you consider literally everyone lhf.

Please make a list of people you believe I've been after, Titus.

[jjh927]

Alisae, do you mind if I hang back on giving a readlist right now? I won't be able to use my computer until I've got a new monitor, which will be sometime tomorrow. Remind me about this time tonorrow and you can have one.

PEdit: Seriously? Unintentional metajoke! Hells yeah!

[jjh927]

Why don't you believe my version of events then?

[jjh927]

Okay, so you think something doesn't add up out of those three variables. What is it?

[jjh927]

I've actually asked for a list of people that she thinks I've targeted. I'd like a response to that at some point because we clearly have different ideas about it from our different perspectives.

[jjh927]

Okay, so Random now bringing up the low hanging fruit stuff. Could you answer that which I asked of Titus- make a list of the people I have, in your words, "gone after".

[jjh927]

Did Random disappear?

[jjh927]

Well, we could back and forth for a bit to make a new pagetop?

You got an opinion on recent dialogue between me and Titus?

[jjh927]

Oh, was that a response regarding the reads request, Alisae? I must have missed that post. I hate doing this on phone but I'll do it as best I can.

Okay then. Currently:

Townreading Frog, Vecna, Bella, Titus, Gork and Alisae.

Nulls are shiqf, Transcend, Dunn and the two hydras.
And Aelita. Cat's out of the bag, vote got no response, did not assist in getting a read. I figured they hadn't been properly keeping up with the game since they didn't seem to know Vecna is deaf, so I thought I might try voting them. As a newcomer who has picked up a few scumreads with all this lhf talk going around, I thought I might make like an apple tied to a string. It didn't get anywhere.

Unvote

Scumreads are McMenno, Random, and Fire.



Those are right-now off-the-top-of-my-head reads. I do keep track of shit in a notepad file I can't currently access, but I'm pretty sure I've not directly disagreed with my past self. Fuck that guy anyway. He makes my life harder on a daily basis.


PEdit: I said a list of everyone you think I've gone after, not just the people on it you think are lhf.

[jjh927]

I'm scared of hydras

[jjh927]

Seriously though, I have mentioned how important I deem tone. You don't need meta for tone; you can compare to shit in the same game. The issue is that even if I could figure out reliably which one of you is speaking without you signing, I can't say whether what I would consider inordane is so because you have talked about a post between yourselves or because it's one of you doing a thing I should pick up on.

PEdit: Gork read happened early and stayed. On reflection it might go up for reconsideration at some point. It was tone based iirc.

[jjh927]

Do I have anything else I need to respond to?

[jjh927]

I'm too sure that Vecna is town to vote him. Talk me through Bella. I'm interested in this one.

[jjh927]

I'm open to the idea of scum!Bella right now.

I've thought plenty about Dunn and I'm still one-track-minding the McMenno bond.

[jjh927]

Does RC even want theae pagetops?

[jjh927]

It was consistent with my view of him.

It was an early townread and it has been filed for review.

[jjh927]

High five!

[jjh927]

Because it was an early read that I abandoned and forgot about. It's like the PDA you have in a desk drawer somewhere.

It was kinda useful at the time for organising my thoughts and getting my priorities straight, but now it's close to worthless.

[jjh927]

So, while you're all stunned over how good that analogy was, I'd like to consider sleeping. Phone posting late at night is not something I want to get into. Like, I have to get up tomorrow and all that crap, but it's kinda important this time. Am going back to uni tomorrow and need my shit ready.

Though, I am willing to answer anything anyone has left to ask me atm. Over tomorrow I may be offline for some time. Obviously that's because uni sorting stuff and no monitor. Not because you people smell.

[jjh927]

I wonder how many people have said ""jj is probably town". I feel like those exact words have been said a lot. Please expect a questionable analysis at some point in the future.

[jjh927]

I'm picking it up as a catching-up I'm-doing-stuff whale call.

[jjh927]

Woah, I think Dunn also told me to change my avatar. That anti-Enel push clearly points to you both being scum.

PEdit: Dunn is on to you buddying him you buddier

[jjh927]

Do people really hate the enel face that much? I mean, One Piece has plenty of other characters doing the same face I can switch to.

[jjh927]

A Titus vote! Random, give me your rundown on my interactions with Titus.

I'm currently being taken back to uni so don't expect any big responses to shit from me for a while or I'll throw up.

[jjh927]

Hullo Transcend.

[jjh927]

Haven't figured out how best to pick up a read on you yet and getting carsick. Might check phone again in 30 minutes or so? We'll see if I think of something.

PEdit: I asked specifically about her interactions with me.

[jjh927]

Okay Transcend, talk me through Alisae- especially regarding the ThinkBig/Vecna slot.

[jjh927]

Wait, I thought he was joking? Was that a serious proposition of strategy?

[jjh927]

I don't want to just dismiss your argument here as frustration but it's getting pretty hard not to.

[jjh927]

Tone is a pretty big thing and you've switched into hyper-aggressive. This is an inconsistency. Is it possible that you're frustrated because you want to lynch Vecna and that isn't going to be as easy as when he was ThinkBig?

[jjh927]

What constitutes power town?

[jjh927]

Voting together doesn't suit me, I'm afraid. Gonna have to decline. I have a sausage sandwich rn though?

[jjh927]

Maybe we could do with some distance?

Aelita; completely excluding points regarding yourself and Vecna, talk to me about Eddie.

[jjh927]

Let's talk about Heartless.

Heartless is convinced that, regardless of Vecna's alignment, the people who jumped to ThinkBig's defence must be scum.

That is, he thinks that someone of Eddie, Transcend and Dunn is scum, and that it's likely to be Dunn. No problems up to this point, right, Heartless?

Let's case. So, first up, I seem to recall me attempting to defend TB too and I did a pretty shit job of it. Why am I not the vote? How has my interaction been missed? Probably overshadowed by the fact that me and Titus started slugging it out soon after that, but, nonetheless, I was there and have been missed.

Heartless has been able to specifically avoid having an opinion on the Vecna slot post-replacement through this without looking suspicious at all. Conflicted opinions? I'd think hydra dissonance was possible but we've not seen any of that. So no, it's not that. They likely agree on not giving an opinion.

So what does that leave? I have no idea what the first point could mean, but it might mean the posts in context were skimmed over a bit, or maybe I didn't actually defend ThinkBig at all and I'm imagining that I did. The second point is the foundation of my case. Heartless is setting up a case to lynch Dunnstral in day 2 if we lynch Vecna, and I think the case works regardless of whether or not Vecna is town or scum.

Vote: Heartless

Tell me why I'm wrong, scary hydra person.

[jjh927]

I don't want to be in your scum pool but was offended by the lack of invite.

[jjh927]

Does your Dunnstral case extend further than the defence of TB, and does it make more sense with scum!Vecna or town!Vecna?

[jjh927]

Last question; are you both of you right now, or just one?

[jjh927]

Yeah, that was what I was asking. Ty Heartless.

Unvote

I'm not confident in my ability to read hydras, but knowing that exchange was just one of you makes me happy. Have a townread. My case on you was shite.

[jjh927]

You haven't, Heartless; I looked at your iso making sure my admittedly contrived case made sense.

I'm far more open to scum!Dunnstral than I was yesterday, but I'd like to be able to talk with him before I get a real read.


And I townread Vecna.

[jjh927]

Maybe, but I pushed it seriously and they took it seriously, which is all I wanted from it.

[jjh927]

In that case, why not lynch Dunn and have someone bond with Vecna so we get the benefit of his ability and someone gets a free active bond?

[jjh927]

I don't want to lynch Dunn yet. I was just asking.

[jjh927]

I'm catching up.


Alisae, I think I might as well just outright claim my negative utility. I can't use my ability if I'm part of the lynch vote. So as much as I'd like to question Dunn, even if I scumread him I'm not taking part in the ending wagon.

[jjh927]

Maybe we could do with some distance?

Aelita; completely excluding points regarding yourself and Vecna, talk to me about Eddie.

Aelita, you never did this. Please respond.

[jjh927]

I don't think that's really talking to me about him.

[jjh927]

You're a tad uncooperative, but okay.

So, let's go right back to when Eddie had a wagon. Did you scumread him then? What were your thoughts?

What about after he started making obvtown posts, starting with that wall he hyped up? How did he handle that? Why did almost everyone start townreading him then?

For what reasons do you townread him?

That'll do for now.

[jjh927]

I think you're missing the part where you talk to me about this.

[jjh927]

"engaging". You're trying to find ways not to answer me. I want you to stop avoiding it and get some words down that I can read.

[jjh927]

Vecna is still obligated to respond.

I asked you this question about 700 posts ago, and Eddie brought it up again for me some time after. You've failed to answer. Please answer.

[jjh927]

Vecna, do you still scumread me, and if so- why?

I don't think anyone else is going to bond with me at this point in time, but as you can only take passive it's important to me that I prove to you that I'm town. I'd have liked a PT I could talk in but w/e.

PEdit: Ooh, you're even looking for a bond now too! Obviously you would be, but the timing is convenient.

[jjh927]

Will do.


Oh and Aelita- ty for answering.

[jjh927]

See, the night talk is a solid ability because it allows total transparency as to what is going on in the piles of other PTs, while things are going on.

We need to see it less as a night chat, and more as a way of shifting the PTs into something resembling a daychat. Because people in those PTs can discuss posts with each other as they happen.

Technically that might actually bring up a drawback for the role in the case that mafia don't have a daychat. I don't know what the consensus/meta is there but that would actually be a case for Vecna's slot having some scum utility. That's a tad awkward.


PEdit: I WAS RIGHT! Aelita isn't the only person who thought that was a serious post so I doubted myself when this was brought up.

[jjh927]

I have also submitted my bond request.

Aelita, appeal to hypocrisy is a fallacy

[jjh927]

It stops being a meta towntell when you say it.

Also hullo I'm new

[jjh927]

Aelita, I've played forum mafia offsite with Alisae, who is trying to introduce mafiascum meta there. Alisae can verify that I am in fact a person who has just joined and not an alt.

[jjh927]

Thinking about it, I am kinda flattered by people assuming I'm experienced.

This is my first game on mafiascum.

[jjh927]

Do you have reads on Bella and Mcmenno you can share?

[jjh927]

Oh, I must have missed previews. Still, McMenno?

[jjh927]

We can weigh up McMenno as a case. Nobody is unreadable.

He voted Eddie in a pretty shitposty manner when there was a wagon going. That can be chalked down to RVS.

He later responds to Eddie with

Obvious scum is obvious. Flail harder, Eddie.

~TD

He seems to have pretty much dismissed that read now, or he's not doing anything with it if he is.


He has also called transcend obvscum. I'm noticing a pattern in his tone here.

Wow, why did Titus just desperado Vecna? What the hell Titus, now we have a conftown lurksack.

Okay, let's lynch some obvscum now.

VOTE: Transcend

~TD

Then, around 200 posts later, he switches vote to Vecna.

Okay time to vote the real scumz~ and not the shitty joke scumz.

VOTE: Vecna

~Akarin

The justification on the Vecna vote is interesting.

You are scum because TB was scum and you haven't done anything that you couldn't do as scum.

Do I get a dog cookie now?

~TD

And I have pretty much just pulled up every last one of the actually-relevant posts by McMenno.


If that last post is legitimately considered his logic for voting Vecna, then there is no reason for him not to be pushing Eddie right now.

Also I think I'm his only stated townread and he prefaced it with "probably".

[jjh927]

watcher

In this monstrous post that I hope I have correctly spoilered.

Though Alisae is right- flavour makes for a tastier roleclaim.

[jjh927]

Fuck I fucked up the quote AND the spoiler

[jjh927]

What does mathblade mean? I've seen that word twice now and google is directing me towards Titus.

[jjh927]

Woah woah woah, Titus' reads may be ridiculous but I'm still townreading her pretty firmly over here. I thoroughly enjoyed our exchange from back before Vecna existed.

[jjh927]

But I think this is town v town.

In no particular order:

My townreads are Titus, Vecna, Frog, Alisae, Gork (reviewed again, still town), Aelita, Heartless, Eddie.

Nulls are Transcend, Shiqf, Dunn and Bella.

My scumreads are Mcmenno, Random and Fire.



So yeah, I said your reads are ridiculous. I'm not going to agree with them a post later.

[jjh927]

I reckon I could pick up scum Alisae. Also, Alisae is bad at crumbing.

And Vecna, nobody here can have any idea what I look for in townreads. The only reads I'm not confident in there are the hydras, because hydras are scary.

[jjh927]

Okay then.

I believe I have left the same number of breadcrumbs as you have.

[jjh927]

-cue everyone checking me and Alisae's isos-

[jjh927]

Vecna, my best reads are the ones I get from 1V1ing people.

Also, only Alisae and I know exactly how many crumbs we have each left, and I believe Ali has admitted to one. I'm taking him up on his offer to fight him lmao. Battles of wits are fun.

[jjh927]

Finally! Case me.

[jjh927]

I was waiting for someone to tell me if lie detector can be a day thing. Titus, does that mean lie detector can be a day thing?

[jjh927]

Oh, also, I can't have a vote on the wagon if I'm gonna use a night action, and if we're gonna go lynch Dunn then I need to put a vote somewhere soo

Vote: McMenno

PEdit: Shit, that's a good idea. I am town.


And I assumed tracker was if he wasn't in a bond at all.

[jjh927]

I am town.

[jjh927]

The logic is that it lets him function as a sheriff, right?

[jjh927]

I was sheeping Titus and I'm young and impressionable don't look at me

[jjh927]

No, I sheeped you on the lie detector claim lmao

[jjh927]

I think you're town and get that you're experienced but I think your scumreads are shite.

[jjh927]

Wait, when did Bella become one of your scumreads, Titus?

[jjh927]

I remember you asking me if I would lynch Bella but I didn't want to assume shit.

[jjh927]

I thought your main scumreads were me, Vecna and Dunn. I know one of those is false, believe another to be false, and could be swung either way on Dunn.

[jjh927]

Looking at your iso with a ctrl f on Bella seems to have jogged my memory. My bad.


Oh, I would have been happy to lynch Dunn with the lie detector claim, but I can't vote for someone who gets lynched and use my night action.

[jjh927]

The ctrl F reminded me of that too. Seriously, my bad.

[jjh927]

What do you mean, Titus?

[jjh927]

I am neither miller nor ascetic though.

[jjh927]

Yeah, but why should I have to claim negative utility in my first post? And why does not doing that make me scum?

[jjh927]

What do you mean, Titus?

Miller ascetic etc all get claimed post one.

[jjh927]

Titus, I was kinda enjoying the back and forth there and there's an implication that you should probably explain to me why I should have to claim negative utility in the first post.

[jjh927]

This isn't the first time in this game I've claimed it.

Also, why is is suspicious? Surely claiming negative utility would depend on what it was, too?

[jjh927]

My thinking in this circumstance was that it detracts from the pressure of my votes, so I didn't want to claim it unless I really had to.

[jjh927]

I did fuck up at least once. That was what happened with the Eddie vote.

[jjh927]

Check my iso? I haven't crumbed it but there's been a few scenarios where I behaved differently than I would have done without this.

Like Transcend's power town offer, for example.