Open 680.1 C9++ | Endgame

[CommKnight]

GC,
Brian, Shannon
Alchemist, Dave
Frank, Rory, Umlaut,
Gamma, Titus, Narna
Comm

Very fluid still apart from the poles but theres generally where I am just now.

Shannon read explanation?
Dave read explanation?
Narna and Gamma?

I mean I get you dislike me and Titus, but if you flip scum, I'm willing to write Gamma, Titus and Narna off as town because of how backwards this is.

Also, my experience with Frank says he's not active when scum and is more active as town. It also says that he's just as quick as I am to pick fights with someone when scum (notice last game when I grilled him for his poor play in our first game together and he went right back at me, he doesn't mind fighting as scum but when we're town, he's more on the fence and not very aggressive in his stances).

So I'm willing to place a bet on Frank being town, anyone care to bet against me? I'll gladly take your money (or in this case, TR'ing ability points).

Also what Titus said earlier strikes me as correct which I'm surprised people want "good" cases, when essentially you should be trying to TR people to create a smaller pool to look at. FS has not once landed in my TR's this game. Last game I even admitted if I was town he would've quickly fell in my TR's. This game he isn't and there's one good reason I can think why. I'll give you a hint. It's some red text in his role.

[CommKnight]

Also, about Campbell's ban. Fucking good. I bet he tries to make an alt and return before the six months is up and gets perma banned. The little dipshit. I don't feel any remorse for that one.

[Green Crayons]

@Comm:

how many times have you rolled scum?

And let me just jump right to the point of why I'm asking. Because all of the bolded looks exactly like what you posted last game, when you were scum:

I have a serious question. Where the hell did all of ya'll get your previous experience playing mafia from? It's like playing the game with guppies who think they're a shark.

It isn't "bad play" "scummy" or whatever you want to brush me off as. Hell, half the people against me keep using "well he was scum last game and played similarly. So he MUST be scum. Because we believe he's stupid enough to draw attention to himself if he were scum two games in a row."

I'm going to stop there, otherwise it will get personal. Trying to brush me off as bad play.

You know, scum always try to do that, and they always get caught by me. Then post game one of two things happens. Either they continue their bullshit claims of bad play or admit it was a good game with them falling in my crosshairs.

I say go ahead and lynch me. It'd provide me relief of not having to scum hunt for you guys because when you're looking this far off of finding scum (both wagons are on me and GC which I know I'm town. But I can tell you I'm pretty damn confident GC is town too).

When we both flip green and you try to rub it off as "bad play". Just remember you SR two townies and let scum control the lynches.

Want to find scum and be a good hunter? Look at who's directing the wagons on myself and GC. I can promise you you'll find a scum in it.

Anyway, I'm done with this for a bit. Don't like my play? Don't like my case? Make your own. Or you know, "Oh Comm's case is bad, let's vote him instead of.. ACTUALLY MAKING OUR OWN CASES."

@Frank, this is like that damn bastard game. I nailed both scum and even 3rd party tyrant king. Yet my play was always brushed off as "bad" or "illogical" or "scummy". But I was right, wasn't I?

In case I'm lynched, (Claiming now: VT) calling it now.

Town: GC, Brian Skies, shannon, Narna, Alchemist, Gamma Emerald, FrankJaeger
Mafia: FS, Umlaut (and if three, Titus).
SK: davesaz or RoryMK (If no SK, both are more than likely town).

When half of that is right come end game after my lynch, I'm going to look at Brian, Alchemist and GC for letting scum roll them over.

[Green Crayons]

BSkies:

CK's admitting to my accusation of being from tos fits with his "vote for claim" mentality. This is because I to do tows.

Town.

Comm or Narna?

[shannon]

I very clearly cannot read you. Do more things. Give me a fighting chance. Sort and be sorted. Don't just turtle up.

I don't think you are reading me anyway.

What have you done for me to attempt reading?

I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt here because I think you'd be a real asset if you started working at this game and theres plenty of time left for you to do it. So yeah you are right I havn't been reading you but i've been waiting for you to give me something to read.

To start, can you please tell me why you voted me way back in the 100s?

The most damning point for me is that the whole thing was a total non-issue until Gamma brought it up like 300 posts later.

The specific issue is that it was [Gamma] who started the whole GC vs Alchemist shit show we've been seeing the past umpteen pages.

I don't get this impression.

What's the impression that you get? For me, Gamma, Alch, and Titus all come out of it looking bad.

I can see it, though it was not my intention. I ended up causing an avalanche of strife by shaking a tree of a question.

It was the wrong question. Should've asked, 'Titus, why didn't you answer GC's question'.

[Gamma Emerald]

I wasn't disturbed by Titus' irresponsiveness, and I hadn't read past that post so I couldn't tell she didn't answer. I was disturbed by GC's phrasing.

[Brian Skies]

BSkies:

CK's admitting to my accusation of being from tos fits with his "vote for claim" mentality. This is because I to do tows.

Town.

Comm or Narna?

Narna.

[Brian Skies]

What's the impression that you get? For me, Gamma, Alch, and Titus all come out of it looking bad.

I don't think Gamma had anything to do with the shitfest.

[ThinkBig]

Vote Count

FireScreamer

(3): FrankJaeger, CommKnight, Titus

Gamma Emerald

(3): shannon, Narna, FireScreamer

Titus

(2): davesaz, Umlaut

RoryMK

(2): Gamma Emerald, Brian Skies

Alchemist21

(1): Green Crayons

CommKnight

(1): RoryMK

Green Crayons

(1): Alchemist21

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-05-03 20:06:48)

[Brian Skies]

What's the impression that you get? For me, Gamma, Alch, and Titus all come out of it looking bad.

I don't think Gamma had anything to do with the shitfest.

But that also depends on what you consider to be the shitfest (I'm just assuming GC v Alch).

[CommKnight]

Tip GC: Never try to compare my words from one game to the next. Because both play styles will be similar. When I'm mafia, I play the game like I'm town. When I'm town, well I'm town. The only added thing when I'm mafia is I try to set-up town or lead them astray. Even if I clusterfuck them between two townies (like last game).

So far, for finished games. I have only rolled scum twice, both times upon replacing into a game (guess scum don't like playing scum). So far all my games I begin from the start, I roll town. Just seems to be the luck of the dice.

Though you'll love trying to figure me out as we play together more, because I can promise not all my scum/town plays are the same (even if they are similar).

Now I can't pull a power play as town this game, because a VT is a VT, so all I can do is be active and call FS out for being a scummy little bastard. I gotta go through and make my case on him clear. But he's not actually made any real cases that go past saying my cases are bad. I'm very straightforward when I say, if you think my case is shit, make a better one. Scum reading me because you think my case is shit is not a valid reason.

@GC, also notice how you no longer have an L2 wagon on you? Hmm, I wonder what motivation could be behind getting that off you hmmm? I'll take my thanks after game when we both flip green. But I want you to go through the player list, try to cross out the bigger TR's you have. Make a pool of who you think even *could* be scum. PoE by taking out TR's and other small assumptions D1 will help more than you think. I do wish I could have a day vig ability though, just so I could prove who is scum this game.

Umlaut I am having doubts about. I mean I still think he could be scum, but not as confident as I was before. Titus seems to kinda buddy me. But my confidence is more on FS flipping red still. I might not have the perfect case on why he's scum. But I'd love to see a case on why he's town.

[Titus]

Brian join me? My gut feels Rory is town, or maybe that's my ego.

[Gamma Emerald]

Yo CommKnight
Doesn't the lack of cases made suggest a passive attitude from FireScreamer? Your post not only tilted my read of FS to the scum side, it made me find a reason.
VOTE: FireScreamer

[CommKnight]

@Gamma, well compared to last game, he's been only focused on the defensive this game. I mean hell, when he voted me it was an OMGUS vote and I assumed Umlaut was with him when he constantly defended FS's poor play. Initially it was gut from me, but it become more scummy when he was only reactive and not proactive like he was last game.

Not only that, but I think FS's flip will be good for associations. Look at the people who avoided his wagon early on (and kept creating counter wagons) if he flips scum like I believe he will.There's CLEAR resistance to his wagon, it's just hard to tell which ones are his buddies and which ones are just TR'ing him more than me.

That and some of the reasons for voting other people (from the ones who've avoided voting FS thus far) have been rather borderline making up excuses. I'll try to do a full ISO of him before bed tonight.

[Green Crayons]

@FS:

A lack of proactive town play.

People have asked me in both day 1s why I don't feel buddied by you GC. GE has demonstrated none of the reasons I can give for that.

re the bolded: Eh. His ISO could be "let me just be present and somewhat engaged" scum. I mean, he has asked a bevy of questions. Not so much on the forming solid suspicions bit, though.

re the underlined: I don't know what you're saying here

Finding Umlaut more townie. Finding Alchemist less.

A good post.

[Green Crayons]

well compared to last game

So we shouldn't compare your play between two games, because they're similar; but we should compare another player's play between two games, because they're different?

[Green Crayons]

he's been only focused on the defensive this game. I mean hell, when he voted me it was an OMGUS vote and I assumed Umlaut was with him when he constantly defended FS's poor play. Initially it was gut from me, but it become more scummy when he was only reactive and not proactive like he was last game.

Also I just skimmed FS's ISO and defensive/reactive weren't descriptors that jumped out at me. What are you thinking of other than his first time voting you?

[CommKnight]

well compared to last game

So we shouldn't compare your play between two games, because they're similar; but we should compare another player's play between two games, because they're different?

Becuase I admit to playing like town when I'm scum to make my similar play unreadable. You'll never know if I'm a manipulating scum or insane (but correct) town.

However, FS has no excuse for being less proactive if he rolls town again. See the difference? I was scum playing like a town-me would play. If he's town, then why would he act differently than he did as town last time?

[Green Crayons]

If he's town, then why would he act differently than he did as town last time?

Well, we had this convo before:

Expecting anyone to act the same in different games after there is a mental reset and also a literal role reset, and then suggesting that any differences between the two games is negative alignment indicative, is not particularly fruitful. Heck, I even notice my own different playstyles between games even when I pull VT in the different games. It's going to happen.

I would say Alchemist (much more targeted, focused questions), Umlaut (general vibe), Titus (lol where is she?), and shannon (actually answering questions) have all acted differently. Sure, FS has too because he isn't literally dominating the thread peppering everyone with questions.

[Gamma Emerald]

well compared to last game

So we shouldn't compare your play between two games, because they're similar; but we should compare another player's play between two games, because they're different?

Becuase I admit to playing like town when I'm scum to make my similar play unreadable. You'll never know if I'm a manipulating scum or insane (but correct) town.

However, FS has no excuse for being less proactive if he rolls town again. See the difference? I was scum playing like a town-me would play. If he's town, then why would he act differently than he did as town last time?

I don't like this explanation but it makes

some

sense.

[Green Crayons]

Becuase I admit to playing like town when I'm scum to make my similar play unreadable. You'll never know if I'm a manipulating scum or insane (but correct) town.

I mean, this answer is what it is and NAI, but I'm always going to be more suspicious of a player who is playing the same as his/her scum game than a player who is not conforming to how they played as a VT.

[Green Crayons]

Three quick votes on GC - 402, 403, 404 (for unrelated stuff - complaining about someone complaining about trust tells)
410 Alchemist could support the GC wagon but wants to stay on Rory

Gamma brings up the Titus voting me issue again in 412 (he has been ISOing GC?) and asks for an explanation.
GC responds in 421

Alchemist gets involved, says it doesn't look like GC was expressing suspicion in 132. (See 425).
GC responds in 519
Alchemist 532 'You didn't call (titus) out for lack of reasoning, but for voting before you did'

The rest I am calling 'blah blah blah'.

Comm's being weird again like last game, but I can't tell if it's scummy or just plain bad.

What would help you get off this fence?

If someone could make a good case for or against him. Right now it's hard to not see the things he's done as just bad play, because even scum would normally know this is bad.

So is Alchemist always this hesitant to join wagons when he's scum?

Also, the "I'm going to fence sit until someone else does the work for me kthx" is bad and bolsters the theory that he's waiting to find an excuse to join an already popular wagon.

[Brian Skies]

Brian join me? My gut feels Rory is town, or maybe that's my ego.

I'm still not a fan of Rory, but sure.

VOTE: FireScreamer

[Titus]

Thanks.

[RoryMK]

^Umlaut, what're your thoughts on this?

The asking about daytalk is weird, I have no idea why Rory would think that. I guess it's worth pursuing but it's not something to hang a case on by itself.

Saying his townread on you "feels disingenuous" isn't really useful by itself. What feels disingenuous about it?

I never play open games and I am a big fan of daytalk. I didn't realize open games don't allow daytalk, or at least this setup doesn't.
That's my explanation, for what it's worth.