Open 680.1 C9++ | Endgame

[Brian Skies]

Part of that post was directed at Green Crayons, by the way. I just didn't feel like explaining my Narna read twice.

[Brian Skies]

His reads list is very safe. He inexplicably refused to speculate on why town Dave would be townreading him despite being in a situation where he has to have thought about that. Has been reactive and sort of around but refusing to step out of the nullspace to form a strong opinion on anything.

Case on me.

S L I P B O Y Z

VOTE: Alchemist

Self explanatory
So I think FS has a substantial amount of cases.

The first one is the only one I really consider a case based on original thought. But he's basically OMGUS'ing CK, so...

The second one was alright, but he immediately redacted it.

[Titus]

I'm more convinced than ever that Titus is scum. Her misuse of VCA is almost exclusively a scum thing, especially D1 VCA and especially the way she's going about it. "The votes speak to me"?? Really, that's town? I don't think so!! Yes, she does occasionally misuse VCA as town, and she does occasionally use it correctly, but in this case I think she's trying to use that quasi-town meta as a smokescreen for her scum game.

Votes speaking to me is not VCA.

[Brian Skies]

But consider this: Both FS and Umlaut have played in a way to keep me from sounding credible.

I don't know about Umlaut, but GC does it too. And you think GC is town, so...

I mean that GC has discredited other players. I have no idea if he's discredited CK.

[Brian Skies]

His reads list is very safe. He inexplicably refused to speculate on why town Dave would be townreading him despite being in a situation where he has to have thought about that. Has been reactive and sort of around but refusing to step out of the nullspace to form a strong opinion on anything.

Oh, is this a case on Gamma? Okay, he gets 1.

[Titus]

Dave, I could likely be sold on Titus but there are two things stopping me:

1. I've never played with Titus in this mode and can't pattern-match what she's doing to any particular scum MO. You seem to have more experience there so maybe you can point me to relevant examples of Titus' use and misuse of VCA.
   
2. I was certain she was scum last roll and I was completely wrong. Her play is obviously very
   different
   this time, and the circumstances are different too (she's not death-tunneling me this time for one), but all the same I'd really like to hear more from players who correctly townread Titus last game. (My first choice would be Narna except I'm not really townreading him.)

Last game I was sure she was town, her actions were 100% what I know of town titus. (I've played with her as town maybe 4 or 5 times now? Neither of us has ever been scum in a game we've shared). Regarding pattern matching, her actions here don't match what I know of Town Titus. You are right that she's different. Whether that's because she's rolled a PR, rolled SK, or rolled Scum, or just busy IRL, IDK.

Bored of d1.

[Titus]

Umlaut firescreamer alchemist scumteam

Davesaz sk

Final guess

[Umlaut]

Way behind on everything.

If I post here during the next 16 hours you should all yell at me to get back to work.

[Umlaut]

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

Will reconsider this when I get back.

[ThinkBig]

Gamma Emerald

(4): Narna, FireScreamer, Alchemist21, RoryMK

FireScreamer

(3): CommKnight, Titus, Brian Skies

Alchemist21

(2): Green Crayons, shannon

Titus

(1): davesaz

Not Voting

(3): Gamma Emerald, Umlaut, Firebringer

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-05-03 20:06:48)

[Firebringer]

VOTE: firescreamer

most scummy person rn

[FireScreamer]

Can you go over why you came to that conclusion.

[FireScreamer]

1. Either you independently agree with Titus or you are sheeping her. Which is it?

Both.

2. The narna townread. Why?

Narna has been a lurk sac all game. And by "lurk" I mean present just enough to know that he's been around and paying attention (compared to dave who has been MIA), but I really couldn't tell you what thoughts he's had at all (save one--mentioned below).

Then there was the night that Narna got drunk and decided to flurry post. And then immediately sunk back into a nonentity. I fully support getting shithoused and then posting on MS. But if that's your most significant engagement with the thread, I'm going to be suspicious because it artificially allows you to look involved and free-wheeling (loose and carefree = town, right?).

I disagree with this insofar as the Narna read goes. Observing that Comm's push for a vote-to-claim on a TR aligns with how other forums (or whatever) play mafia is not alignment indicative. Yes, town could say it because it is true; but so could scum (because, again, it is true), particularly if they want a good reason to not vote a popular wagon like Comm, regardless of Comm's alignment.

Partly gut. Partly because I don't see him just getting caught up in the same arguments or same logical conclusions as other people. I feel like he's actively trying to sort people and be vocal about his opinions. Admittedly, he hasn't been around for a while (not really that long, the day or so absence seems expected based on his posting pattern), but the last time he posted, he seemed to either have fallen behind or is struggling to keep up. He was also one of the top posters when he was around and is still one of the top posters despite being absent.

The ToS comment falls in line with his prior comments about Comm. Sure, scum can do it, but I also think it shows that Narna is actually trying to figure people out.

Also, just because you're not paying attention to him or don't remember his posts doesn't mean he's a nonentity. It just means you're not paying attention to him or don't remember his posts, which sounds more like a

you

problem.

3. Why is it wrong to "piggyback" an argument against a demonstrably incorrect strategy such as gamblers fallacy?

There is a right answer and a wrong answer

and there are only so many ways to express that.

That is just your opinion. And it's not about whether or not he has the

right

answer or not, it's about whether it's coming from a town mindset.

I don't really think it's wrong to piggyback. It just felt nice to say and I feel like I'm conditioned to scumread it. Either way, I still don't like the way you reacted to him.

4. Show me where I piggyback your umlaut read or reasoning in any way.

Spoiler: Me

How am I supposed to feel about you just bailing at the first sight of a non-PR claim and not just think you're PR-shopping now?

Spoiler: You

UNVOTE: CommKnight
It's too early to lynch and I think we've gotten what we can out of this wagon.

Gotten what we can? Are you claim collecting?

Granted, we could've just come to similar conclusions.

5. You don't know if I've given a scumread based on my own original thought? Go back and actually look. If you still want to defend that statement once you say you have done that be my guest.

It was a throwaway comment since I just wrote up a quick case. You're more than welcome to show it yourself.

6. Why do my statements seem unnatural from a town perspective?

Because your lines give off this weird impression that you know he's town and you want him to go somewhere else, and then you respond to him with a 'you couldn't lynch me if you wanted to' attitude. In most scenarios, I would expect either a 'you're wrong' or a 'EAT ROPE DIE SCUM' mentality, but that's not what you displayed here. I could reasonably expect different reactions (playful joking around or whatever), but this is not one of them.

If you look at the last game you'll find the same warning some one off from tunneling wit the same attitude with me vs Titus. It's not indicative of me being scum. Both arguments you've accused me of piggybacking are just very easy conclusions to come to in the game. I'm not sure what you wanted me to add in either case. Got any other complaints?

[FireScreamer]

Umlaut firescreamer alchemist scumteam

Davesaz sk

Final guess

Wow you are bad at this

[shannon]

I wasn't disturbed by Titus' irresponsiveness, and I hadn't read past that post so I couldn't tell she didn't answer. I was disturbed by GC's phrasing.

So you saw like 300 posts had happened between Titus voting me and you asking GC the question, and it didn't occur to you to:
- read a few more pages to see if it had been resolved
- read a few more pages to see whether anyone else had asked what you were going to ask
- ISO any of the involved players to establish same?

Your iso suggests ... that might actually be the case. It shows you responding to posts in order, regardless of what might have happened in between. OK, I believe you.

VOTE: Alchemist

Can you look back on the Gamma progression on me and comm and come back on the wagon kthanks

inb4 'shannon was bussing gamma and then the wagon got strong and she left it but now she's worried about not being on it so she came back'

[shannon]

VOTE: firescreamer

most scummy person rn

Growlithe used Vote. It was not very effective.

Join me on Alchemist?

[shannon]

Umlaut firescreamer alchemist scumteam

Davesaz sk

Final guess

While the undeniable benefit of not having two fire-persons in the game can't be understated, I'd prefer you to bus Alchemist please

[shannon]

Why is Gamma Emerald a wagon? Last I remember I saw more genuine attempt to solve from him than from anyone else.

I realize you're working in chronological order, but the best way to find an answer to this is just to read the segment of the game during which the wagon built up. Once you get to that I'd appreciate your thoughts on the cases presented.

I'll go further: Regardless of whether you think my case on Gamma was any good, I want to know what you think of the people who followed me on to him.

The TLDR is that Alchemist was voting Gamma as an OMGUS.
I voted Gamma but implicated Alchemist as being his team mate. (Alchemist voted elsewhere but I can't be arsed seeing whether it was before or after I voted)
Then FireScreamer, Narna, Umlaut, and Alchemist all voted Gamma again.

FireScreamer has emerged as the Gamma alt-wagon, Gamma apparently has no reads to vote despite having read the whole game ...

[shannon]

His reads list is very safe. He inexplicably refused to speculate on why town Dave would be townreading him despite being in a situation where he has to have thought about that. Has been reactive and sort of around but refusing to step out of the nullspace to form a strong opinion on anything.

Oh, is this a case on Gamma? Okay, he gets 1.

I just reviewed Gamma like you asked Fire and I can't say any reason to town read Gamma, it's mostly lazy play where he quotes a bunch of stuff and gives a one liner like 'this looks town' or 'reads change'. It's fine to do that stuff sometimes, but without anything substantive accompanying it I'd call it null at best.

[FireScreamer]

Alright. Come back on the Gamma wagon then.

[Firebringer]

Can you go over why you came to that conclusion.

Your demeanor and attitude seem centered around positions that I think scum are more likely to take, and I looked at your past games that were town and they didn't feel same as this.

So....scum.

Now I await for you to say I am being vague.

[Firebringer]

Growlithe used Vote. It was not very effective.

Growlithe used Tackle.
It missed!

Shannon tried to use Persuasion.
Growlithe is poor of hearing and didn't hear her.

[Firebringer]

While the undeniable benefit of not having two fire-persons in the game can't be understated, I'd prefer you to bus Alchemist please

Shannon this is gross.

[FireScreamer]

Can you go over why you came to that conclusion.

Your demeanor and attitude seem centered around positions that I think scum are more likely to take, and I looked at your past games that were town and they didn't feel same as this.

So....scum.

Now I await for you to say I am being vague.

Well I am going to need details if I am to refute that. It is fairly nebulous. Which positions?

[Firebringer]

Well I am going to need details if I am to refute that. It is fairly nebulous. Which positions?

I am being vague because if I point to specifics you will just correct them overtime, also I am not here to give you lessons on now how not to act like scum. You can dismiss my case all you want as vague or nonexistent, I am fine with either.

You made stances and approached scum in a way I believe was both manipulative in a way scum are more likely to behave and your scum hunting doesn't seem genuine.

Like the way you interact with a few players gives me the idea you know for certainty of their alignments, like with Titus, but also say at same time you aren't sure of their alignments.