Mini Normal 1909: Girls ♥ Girls 1 ~ Endgame

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Alrighty, I'll let Ari respond to that.

[Nachomamma8]

@Hikari Link: I'm splitting my reads into three posts; townreads, reads I have no idea about, Frogger. I've tried to avoid talking about meta when able to but it's inevitably made it into a couple of reads that I just can't separate it from - let me know if this is helpful at all.

{Tammy, Implosion, Boonskiies, Alisae}
{Firebringer, Aristophanes}

I think that Tammy's town looks posting in a vacuum but a large part of my confidence in her being town is due to meta; she's the player I'm the most familiar with in this playerlist by far and we've been playing together for a while and while meta tells can absolutely be wrong I don't think this one is. The posting that I think looks town regardless of meta is how she's working through reading people while still messing around and having fun - every read she's given makes sense and has nuance.

I thought that Implosion's push on Tammy looked town. Part of thinking that looks town is also due to meta - Tammy has been playing for years and has never been mislynched and had an opening that I thought looked pretty town - I don't think that implosion as scum would decide to push Tammy as the first significant thing that he did in the game (especially for reasoning as shaky as "you haven't towntold in your first post"), but it makes a lot of sense for him to push her a bit prematurely because he wasn't townreading her yet and was used to townreading her instantly. I also agree with and can understand exactly where all of his reads are coming from; his stance on rb is complicated for scum faking a read and reflects my early perspective perfectly, and I think that his reasons for starting to scumread Alisae make a lot of sense, as do his reasons for wanting to hold onto that scumread - the way he sort of lets the read fizzle out as he inevitably loses confidence in it anyways also seems very genuine.

The towniest part of Boonskiies's play is how he's handling Alisae's push on him; posts like this where he's saying "I gave you a chance to survive but you fucked up, time for you to die" is some pretty smooth confidence as scum, posts like this where he says that he was waiting for Alisae to vote him also look very genuine and make sense when a big part of the reason he suspects Alisae is Alisae's push on him, and posts like this also just seems like a townie who feels confident that he caught scum. It also helps quite a bit that he's pushing Alisae for very legitimate reasons (I talked about where I think he's going wrong a bit in my response to Alisae, I can go through their exchanges again if that's something you were interested in). Him having legitimate reasons to back up his confidence helps with townreading him because it makes it less likely that he's just going attacking Alisae because there's suspicion surrounding him and he thinks pressing someone hard will make him look town.

I'm townreading Alisae mostly because I don't think his play here makes a whole lot of sense from a scum perspective. I don't think that it makes scum to push Frog as hard as he was and then swap to Boonskies shortly after, but I can understand town who gets overzealous based on someone actively making posts that they disliked. I also think that his reads (for the most part) make sense - even his Boonskiies read which bothers me the most out of everything that he's done started out pretty reasonably before going off the rails later. Examples of reads that I think look genuine include his early implosion read: it looked kind of strange that he was pressing implosion but not voting him early on but then he explained that he didn't understand what implosion was doing but thought it was an odd thing for him to do as scum, which mirrored my thoughts on implosion at the time. I liked his read on Frog here. It, of course, helps that I share the Frog scumread, but I also liked how the attack started out very confident and ended with "I think you might be scum here" - I can definitely see feeling great about something in the moment but then losing confidence before you actually submit the post and don't think it's a detail that Alisae as scum puts in if the motivation here is to go bananas on Frogger to look town.

I think Firebringer could be town because it doesn't look like he's trying to get townread in any way at all - his scumread on implosion is based on one post, he has a scumread on Alisae also based on nothing, and very very blatantly rolefishes in thread. He might be scum who thinks that he can get away with it because "lol firebringer" and I don't really have any reason to believe that he isn't, just kind of gut reading him as town here.

I think Aristophanes could be town because he hates being scum and I don't think he'd open up with pushing me. This is not a very strong reason for him being town.

So right now, I feel okay about the top four being town - Tammy in particular I feel surprisingly confident about but every other read I wouldn't be horribly surprised if I was wrong with (I'd think they were playing a good game of course, but it wouldn't be a huge huge surprise), they just feel pretty town right now. Firebringer and Aristophanes I think are town basically based on a hunch - would turn my reads on them in an instant.

[Nachomamma8]

i can see scum alisae doing all of that since it would all look townie, and it's not like we're gonna lynch fro99er 1 day into deadline anyway and alisae knows this

I don't think that it's intuitive for scum to blast multiple people as hard as Alisae did out of the gate and then fake being upset because no one is listening to you. I do acknowledge that it being so early in the day weakens my reasoning in general (it's not a super strong read so not particularly worried about that yet).

[Fro99er]

ribbit -- I have some things to say.

I'm about to build a damn wall. An enormous, beautiful wall. The best wall you will ever see. Stay tuned...

[Firebringer]

I think Firebringer could be town because it doesn't look like he's trying to get townread in any way at all - his scumread on implosion is based on one post, he has a scumread on Alisae also based on nothing, and very very blatantly rolefishes in thread. He might be scum who thinks that he can get away with it because "lol firebringer" and I don't really have any reason to believe that he isn't, just kind of gut reading him as town here.

I actually had a gut feeling from Alisae, its not based on nothing. He is acting very like how I expect out of his scum play. I don't say anything more because Alisae will immediately discredit it because "fire bringer is always paranoid of me" Which is half accurate, and I think he already did.

Implosion first post about Tammy was so scummy, that wasn't nothing.
His back and forth with Tammy was bad too, but not as bad as the initial post.

Also yes, I would blatantly rosefish as scum. I wasn't honestly role fishing I was just pretending I was. I made up a "Rb is crumbing Jailkeeper" to see how he would react. Not sure what to think of his reaction, I am wondering why he is so nice to Titus this game.

Also, how is your day going?

[Firebringer]

I don't agree with reading Implosion or Alisae as town right now.
Alisae doesn't feel right to me.

If I am wrong on one, its probably Implosion.
He does sound more personal than what I think his scum game might be more like.
Where he is more objective and broad in his views and posts.

[Firebringer]

I will also admit for the most part, I am behind on this game.
I stopped reading at around page 12ish when I went to sleep.
I was feeling a little sick and tired, and I feel slightly better today, but I don't have plans to catch up today because I need to get some personal matters settled that I am seriously putting off. Got to have better life priorities.

I will post again tomorrow, hopefully i have caught up by then.

[Nachomamma8]

I think Firebringer could be town because it doesn't look like he's trying to get townread in any way at all - his scumread on implosion is based on one post, he has a scumread on Alisae also based on nothing, and very very blatantly rolefishes in thread. He might be scum who thinks that he can get away with it because "lol firebringer" and I don't really have any reason to believe that he isn't, just kind of gut reading him as town here.

I actually had a gut feeling from Alisae, its not based on nothing. He is acting very like how I expect out of his scum play. I don't say anything more because Alisae will immediately discredit it because "fire bringer is always paranoid of me" Which is half accurate, and I think he already did.

Implosion first post about Tammy was so scummy, that wasn't nothing.
His back and forth with Tammy was bad too, but not as bad as the initial post.

Also yes, I would blatantly rosefish as scum. I wasn't honestly role fishing I was just pretending I was. I made up a "Rb is crumbing Jailkeeper" to see how he would react. Not sure what to think of his reaction, I am wondering why he is so nice to Titus this game.

Also, how is your day going?

The point that I'm making is not that your process is based on nothing, but rather that you weren't really trying to sell them or act like you had genuine reads (if scum) - you just kind of went "here are reads I have right now and here's a post that made me think that" and left it at that. Does that make sense?

[Firebringer]

The point that I'm making is not that your process is based on nothing, but rather that you weren't really trying to sell them or act like you had genuine reads (if scum) - you just kind of went "here are reads I have right now and here's a post that made me think that" and left it at that. Does that make sense?

Yeah that makes sense.
Early game of any game as either alignment I am very vague in my explanations of things.

I was just saying if you want to know why i have a read, you can always ask.

[Titus]

The point that I'm making is not that your process is based on nothing, but rather that you weren't really trying to sell them or act like you had genuine reads (if scum) - you just kind of went "here are reads I have right now and here's a post that made me think that" and left it at that. Does that make sense?

Yeah that makes sense.
Early game of any game as either alignment I am very vague in my explanations of things.

I was just saying if you want to know why i have a read, you can always ask.

What does your gut think of Nacho/Tammy/Implosion

[implosion]

Fire: obviously you aren't obligated to believe me, but I don't think this is something I'd lie about as scum:

The cheeky opening post that I mentioned I wouldn't be able to make was going to be accusing Tammy of being scum for not having towntild yet. Despite not having posted yet. I had planned to make that my opening post before I got my role pm.

In other words my first post about Tammy was something I was planning to do before I got my role pm. It's not something that has any real alignment indicative meaning, at least if you believe me when I say this.

[Firebringer]

What does your gut think of Nacho/Tammy/Implosion

This is last post i respond to until i seriously try to block ms for the day to get stuff done:

Nacho-Feels townie. He isn't doing anything I expect him to do, he is engaged with everyone, theres no hold backs form anything he is saying or doing. Like theres more of a 'in control' vibe you get when you see between nacho town and scum. I am not feeling it here yet. It was harder to tell right in RVS because the playfulness but i feel he is townie.

Tammy-Unsure. I will be honest, everyone says Tammy is super fricking easy to read and I have never understood it. Anyone who people say is easy to read I fail almost 80% of the time. She seems to be enjoying herself and relaxed which apparently is her town tells but she also lately seems to have gotten better at enjoying scum so that could mean nothing. Overall hope she keeps up the fun, i don't like seeing her hate games she plays in. I said a lot without giving a read, so I am just saying Optimistic Town, but it is still null.

Implosion-I felt was more scummy and I explained it before. Its 629 and 630

[Nachomamma8]

@Hikari Link, this is my second reads post talking about reads that I'm still working through.

I'm probably coming around to a townread on Gin. It does look like he's genuinely trying to read me through posts like 19 (which I lean town on because of the whole "unreasonable expectations thing" I talked about with my townread on implosion) and here where he questions my early activity even though not really thinking it makes me more likely to be scum. I'm inclined to read him for wacky shit like this post, where not pushing implosion today is apparently a gambit or this post where he's crumbed something to me or this "I don't give a shit about them or I do give a shit about them" separation + "I'm scumreading Tammy because my reasons for townreading her aren't deep enough" wacky shit combo but I'm far more comfortable reading him on the reads he's formed and decided to push and he just hasn't really gotten into that a whole lot yet.

---


Titus I just don't really have a read on right now. I had some concerns early mostly because I wasn't really sure where she was coming from and she was poking at a dynamic that felt off to her in a way that was more laid-back then I was expecting and then I ended up liking her responses to that but not in a way where I could feel so much as vaguely confident about a read there. I think pressing a scum read based on a contradiction that's not a contradiction is something she's capable of doing as either alignment.

---

I'm not really sure what to make of rb. His interactions with me bother me for reasons that I'd rather not get into, but at a minimum, I'm annoyed that he played one game with me 6 months ago and assumes he knows everything about me and I'm not worth interacting as a result, and I'm still trying to figure out whether I think that conclusion is genuine when he didn't bring up any of that frustration in the game in question.

I think his perspective on Frogger seems genuine; I'm not sure he'd be going to bat for a scumbuddy who hadn't done anything yet, and the way he presents his reasoning here like it's immediately going to be discredited seems genuine to me. His most recent point on Alisae (dropping strong Frogger meta scumread to push Boonskiies) is not bad at all and is easily the one thing about Alisae that bothers me.

His interactions with Titus also look genuine enough and the things he's doing in general don't really look like things scum would do (in particular things like the self-vote and sheeping Titus stuff). If I didn't have the interactions stuff to parse through I'd be much more comfortable slotting him as town and he might just be town but as of right now I'm more comfortable leaving a bunch of question marks around him.

---

If I was forced to read you/Keyser I'd call you town and Keyser scum because the way you're trying to get a handle on the game seems kind of genuine to me and Keyser complaining and disappearing immediately doesn't but that's less than nothing type of reasoning.

[Nachomamma8]

Feel more confident about my Firebringer than I did like 5 minutes ago, think his recent posts look fairly genuine.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

My turn?

[Nachomamma8]

@Hikari Link: This is my scumread on Frogger. A good chunk of my confidence in the read is because of meta (I wouldn't feel it was anything more than a decent RVS vote otherwise), but I've done my best to explain context and where I'm coming from below; let me know if anything needs to be clarified.

First of all, in a vacuum, I feel like Frogger's posts aren't great. Voting Alisae is fine, but if it was a strong read like he claims it is in this post, I'd imagine he'd care a bit more about explaining it. Showing up and caring about nothing but the votecounts in this and this post while people are pushing a case on him and things are happening around him just feels unnatural.

The reason why meta makes this a read I feel somewhat confident about is because I've found that, in general, he'd rather be town than scum and it shows and I've also found that as town he's not inclined to let people just push him - he doesn't like being misunderstood and he generally feels very town when he's town and so usually struggles to see why people would suspect him. If you look through the first page of his ISO around this post, you'll see him responding to suspicion on him and pushing back a bit in a way that is much much different than how he's handling it here.

In Laundry Mafia, for example, Frogger played with Tammy and I and opened the game up in the same sort of way that we opened here; he was playful, he was active, he developed multiple reads and pushed them pretty much instantly.

There's also games like this one, where he was very busy but still managed to take point in a hydra and certainly didn't let the suspicion surrounding him stand while he flaked out of his scumgame that was going on at the same time.

I don't think that this is slam dunk reasoning or anything (it's possible that Frogger is town doing a weird gambit, it's possible he's just busy and not letting us know he is for some reason) and I think he's more than capable of faking the differences I pointed out in these game, but I think that him not liking scum as much as he likes town means that it's possible he's more inclined to have an opening like this when scum.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

lol Nacho for that very reason I'm not yet joining you because of The Thinker mislynch.

I'm giving him time to see what's up because if he's town he'll do something.

For the record I do agree on the meta considering he never posted as scum in the Open I held and one game I subbed into he posted a lot defending himself but you taught me this caution so yeah.

[Nachomamma8]

My turn?

you know last time you asked my permission to jump in you were scum

ooooOOOOooooOOOOoOoOo

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I'm going to take that as a serious concern of yours

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Highest Priority

Nacho---->Tammy and Hikari
Titus
Boonskiies
Fire
rb---->Alisae
Alisae

Keyser

Ari and Frogger




My personal to do list.

Nacho is my bae and if we are going to do a break the game 1, I need to have him as a town read or I'm fukt. Nacho should also be able to sort out Tammy(I mean they're dating so I think they know each other's play down pat) and Nacho is the only one I saw in the sign up threads welcoming Hikari so Nacho will be a great source of information on that slot

Titus I can't read for shite

Boon I just recently played with and I'll be experimenting with him to see if I can crack a town!tell out of him or not.

Fire I remember calling out Nacho's shit before and I also (you know this) get antsy about the slot as the game goes on.

rb apparently he's cool as town, could chill with Alisae insight.

Ari and Frogger, seen their scum game, it's literally not posting at all. They sort themselves.

Welcome to my head but you get to see it written out

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Here's the main difference which should be the major fucking signal flares of my town and scum games.

In my scum games, sure I'll make posts like the countdown I made here which reflects posts likes the one below:

Nacho, tomorrow night, be there or be square. It's a date.

/Gin

Pushing a lynch right now is not what I actually care about tho. I just want someone I can talk to about my reads on players going over them. I need fucking Nacho.

The main difference?

Town me interacts with you, it wants to sort you, it wants you to be town, it wants to work with you and fights your stupid scum reads until they pitter patter away and we can work together.

Scum me? I'll fake look like I want to interact with you and then just wait to night kill you.

You can judge yourself and people call it meta manipulation but you know the difference

[Nachomamma8]

I'm going to take that as a serious concern of yours

My only serious concern with you is that you seem more interested in talking about how you're going to sort as opposed to actually sorting - I don't think you're scum at the moment but I'm still waiting for you to bring the thunder.

[Titus]

Here's the main difference which should be the major fucking signal flares of my town and scum games.

In my scum games, sure I'll make posts like the countdown I made here which reflects posts likes the one below:

Nacho, tomorrow night, be there or be square. It's a date.

/Gin

Pushing a lynch right now is not what I actually care about tho. I just want someone I can talk to about my reads on players going over them. I need fucking Nacho.

The main difference?

Town me interacts with you, it wants to sort you, it wants you to be town, it wants to work with you and fights your stupid scum reads until they pitter patter away and we can work together.

Scum me? I'll fake look like I want to interact with you and then just wait to night kill you.

You can judge yourself and people call it meta manipulation but you know the difference

You promised a lot of content in Gay Mafia and never really delivered though and you were town...

[Titus]

Oh wait nevermind that was Pine..

~ Sads. I miss Pine.... ~

[Boonskiies]

@Nacho in response to the Alisae thing - She just dropped her frogger and my case and is now pushing on Implosion, who is at L-2. You said she was pushing Frogger hard, but with how willing she was to switch I feel like it was fabricated.