Mini Normal 1908 - In The Web (Game Over)

[Ircher]

@twoFace
The face that MMM vote was bad and MMM's progression so far this game.

[MortFeld]

Replacing out does become a trust tell. But allowing this to happen (i.e. only replacing out as town and never as scum on purpose) is morally suspect, in my opinion. In general I agree with Yoshi's stance for people who have a sense of the game's honor.

Either way I think that even if Transcend is scum only TF got anywhere close to a coherent justification for his vote. Bad wagon.

[MortFeld]

Wait I contradicted myself re: trust tells.

[Ircher]

@Mort
Titus or MMM?

[TwoFace]

@twoFace
The face that MMM vote was bad and MMM's progression so far this game.

Mmm has voted my 2 biggest scum reads. So see nothing wrong with the vote.

I don't really understand the progression part. Explain what you think transcend menat

[TwoFace]

@ ircher if you compare transcend vs mmm. I feel hands down transcend has played scummier

[MortFeld]

@Mort
Titus or MMM?

Titus. But I acknowledge that a lot of that is being very annoyed with how she was like, limply pushing me earlier.

[MortFeld]

MMM anger at Transcend is definitely fakeable but does a lot to help my MMM read along with their Transcend push since it's MMM actually interacting with the game.

[Ircher]

Actually, I think I changed my mind on MMM because it was moreso a perceived lack of any progression in reads, but relooking through the ISO, I've realized I kinda "misattributed" (for lack of better word--more as to just didn't pay attn to post authors) a few posts and didn't realize those posts were his.

[Hikari Link]

I really don't have time for this game today, but I want to come back when I can and try to analyze everything that's been going down.

This isn't a response on the state of this game, I just feel I need to leave this comment for TwoFace.

I know it's a bit on the long side, but I implore you to read it and at least consider it.

I've seen how toxic you can get. I don't blame him at all.

Right and I'm not doing that this game which makes his frustration towards me come off as fake.

Like if I was doing all the things that people say they hated about me, I'd get it but I'm literally not.

I'm not trying to insult you, but I've really got to disagree. You're not being super toxic, but a few of your attitudes could be perceived as toxic and could absolutely drive somebody away.

1. Your implication that different playstyles are scummy.

2. Your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge the legitimacy of other people's

feelings

about the game.

3. Your insistence that you haven't even done anything that would drive people away.

You may feel that you are new and improved (and you probably are), but there is always room for improvement. Some of your attitudes can come across as arrogant and toxic.

I've been in similar positions. Back around 2007-2010, I was a really shitty person. I was a little better by the time I joined this site, 2011, but still an arrogant prick. After I left, I worked to become a better person, and I thought I had. But after learning more about relationships in around 2015, I realized that I was still an asshole, so I kept working at it. Flash forward to now and I'm still a work in progress. How I am now is like night and day from how I was 10 years ago, but I still feel like I have a long way to go. I believe that not being an asshole is a lifetime pursuit; the second you think you aren't an asshole is the second you fail.

Again, this is not an attack on you as a person, TwoFace. It's just something I think you may want to consider. Now I really do need to do other things today.

[BigYoshiFan]

Ok, this looks like weak town Transcend. I can't really do much with naked reasons, but that generally is how he likes to play town. So I'll put him as town for now and hope he gives more later.

Getting d1ed by a bunch of idiots who can't read me.

Lame.

>calling everyone lynching him idiots

I don't like his progression through the game

I don't like his pre flip associations

>not a single example

Titus+Mort/BYF+GE for early scum team imo

Not associating anyone that's just who I think is scummiest atm

Titus for reactions on me
Mort/BYF gives me TvS vibes
GE just feels scummy to me

This is junk

This is junk too

Mort help get the votes off of me lol

>does ate

I'm bad at defending myself unless i ate/wifom which i don't like doing

>talks about ateing next post

I'm sorry is this mafia or is this a fucking popularity contest?

Baaah.

Willing to vote Trans based on this and TwoFace.

These don't coincide well with me, especially if it's TwoFace's 153 post that you're referring to.

[BigYoshiFan]

I really don't have time for this game today, but I want to come back when I can and try to analyze everything that's been going down.

This isn't a response on the state of this game, I just feel I need to leave this comment for TwoFace.

I know it's a bit on the long side, but I implore you to read it and at least consider it.

I've seen how toxic you can get. I don't blame him at all.

Right and I'm not doing that this game which makes his frustration towards me come off as fake.

Like if I was doing all the things that people say they hated about me, I'd get it but I'm literally not.

I'm not trying to insult you, but I've really got to disagree. You're not being super toxic, but a few of your attitudes could be perceived as toxic and could absolutely drive somebody away.

1. Your implication that different playstyles are scummy.

2. Your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge the legitimacy of other people's

feelings

about the game.

3. Your insistence that you haven't even done anything that would drive people away.

You may feel that you are new and improved (and you probably are), but there is always room for improvement. Some of your attitudes can come across as arrogant and toxic.

I've been in similar positions. Back around 2007-2010, I was a really shitty person. I was a little better by the time I joined this site, 2011, but still an arrogant prick. After I left, I worked to become a better person, and I thought I had. But after learning more about relationships in around 2015, I realized that I was still an asshole, so I kept working at it. Flash forward to now and I'm still a work in progress. How I am now is like night and day from how I was 10 years ago, but I still feel like I have a long way to go. I believe that not being an asshole is a lifetime pursuit; the second you think you aren't an asshole is the second you fail.

Again, this is not an attack on you as a person, TwoFace. It's just something I think you may want to consider. Now I really do need to do other things today.

I endorse this, and I really appreciate how you've put this, Hikari.

[Hikari Link]

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

My suspicion isn't gone, but I want to reevaluate the game state when I can. Need to see if there was blatant opportunism on the Transcend wagon, if Titus is worthy of consideration, and a few other things.

@BigYoshiFan: If you townread Transcend now, get your vote off of him. Same goes for anybody else still parked on him.

[BigYoshiFan]

UNVOTE: Transcend

[TwoFace]

I'm not trying to insult you, but I've really got to disagree. You're not being super toxic, but a few of your attitudes could be perceived as toxic and could absolutely drive somebody away.

You are basically saying anyone who pushes on a scum read is toxic. That's terrible logic

[TwoFace]

Your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge the legitimacy of other people's feelings about the game.

I have no clue what you are even referring to with this one.

[MortFeld]

Actually, I think I changed my mind on MMM because it was moreso a perceived lack of any progression in reads, but relooking through the ISO, I've realized I kinda "misattributed" (for lack of better word--more as to just didn't pay attn to post authors) a few posts and didn't realize those posts were his.

Changed your mind from a SR to less of one, or what?

[BigYoshiFan]

Your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge the legitimacy of other people's feelings about the game.

I have no clue what you are even referring to with this one.

I've seen how toxic you can get. I don't blame him at all.

Right and I'm not doing that this game which makes his frustration towards me come off as fake.

Like if I was doing all the things that people say they hated about me, I'd get it but I'm literally not.

One example is when you come to this conclusion that Transcend is faking his frustration. You may not be doing exactly what causes previous players to become frustrated, but that doesn't mean he's frustration isn't legitimate. He's had bad experiences with you, maybe he's afraid it will resurface and just wanted to avoid that.

[BigYoshiFan]

I'm not trying to insult you, but I've really got to disagree. You're not being super toxic, but a few of your attitudes could be perceived as toxic and could absolutely drive somebody away.

You are basically saying anyone who pushes on a scum read is toxic. That's terrible logic

Was this pushing your scumread?

If you play honest, you can't be scummy.

I agree with all of your wall but for this conclusion.

Well I've yet to see you play honest and you say I can't read you for shit so...

Getting d1ed by a bunch of idiots who can't read me.

Lame.

Blame others for your mistakes. LofuckingL

[Hikari Link]

Seriously last post until I've got everything else important for the day done.

I'm not trying to insult you, but I've really got to disagree. You're not being super toxic, but a few of your attitudes could be perceived as toxic and could absolutely drive somebody away.

You are basically saying anyone who pushes on a scum read is toxic. That's terrible logic

No, I'm saying that your policies are poor because they don't allow for context whatsoever. You seem to act as though everything happens in a vacuum, when it does not. Some of the things Transcend did could certainly be considered scummy, but you don't seem to consider the larger perspective of

why

a townie might be motivated to do them.

Your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge the legitimacy of other people's feelings about the game.

I have no clue what you are even referring to with this one.

I'm referring to your comments about townies being worried about looking scummy.

Maybe this will help:
>People don't like losing.
>Being mislynched

feels

like losing to some townies.
>Some townies don't want to be mislynched because it

feels

like they are losing.
>Some townies will avoid being incriminated so that they are not mislynched, because being mislynched is tantamount to loss, in their mind.

Now consider this:
>This is a thought process that some people have.
>You are saying people should not think this way.
> Some people don't like being told how to think.
> You appear to be telling them how to think.
> Those people will not like you because they feel you are telling them how they have to think.

The attitude of being preoccupied with staying alive, rather than trying to help the town, is definitionally anti-town. It's literally putting oneself above the town. However, it's not inherently scummy in that it is not inherently scum-motivated, since town can (and do) often have this motivation. You seem like you are conflating the two things when they should probably not be conflated.

[MortFeld]

People admonishing TF is gunking up the thread, this is a formal request that you either keep it game related or take it outside the thread.

[TwoFace]

1. When people scum read you the natural reaction is to defend yourself and explain why those people were wrong. Not get mad and quit.

Town motivation for that - 0
Scum motivation - get people to feel sorry for you and hopefully town read you.

2. Yes they are examples.

[TwoFace]

No, I'm saying that your policies are poor because they don't allow for context whatsoever. You seem to act as though everything happens in a vacuum, when it does not. Some of the things Transcend did could certainly be considered scummy, but you don't seem to consider the larger perspective of why a townie might be motivated to do them

Geese this is like every game I play.

I can't control what I find scummy. I do try to look for town motivation but I don't see any. I also don't see anyone explaining it to me either.

Like why would town feel the need to force people to townread them by doing stupid things instead of just letting happen natural by doing the towniest thing you could do, scum hunt?

Transcend didn't bother to explain to me why he did what he did. Neither did anyone else.

[TwoFace]

I'm referring to your comments about townies being worried about looking scummy.

So I because I think townies should play care free, I'm disregarding people's feelings? Meh that's a stretch.

People don't like losing - I agree so they should scum hunt. They shouldn't decided to make a bunch of BS posts and say "look I'm obvtowning" because you aren't going to find scum that way and you're going to draw negative attention on you instead.

Being mislynched feels like losing - i get that so do everything in your power to prevent that. Scum hunt, ask questions, make good arguments and respond appropriately when people disagree with you. If you still get lynched you at least left behind a good body of work. If you don't do these things you have hurt town, not helped.

Some townies avoid being incriminated - I don't understand this one. Maybe this is a skill level thing? If you give out your honest opinions and somebody disagrees with you and you can intelligently defend yourself, then you've done nothing to incriminate yourself. If you lie, or are dishonest, or do things to force people to read you a certain way than yes you deserve being incriminated.

My game philosophy is quite simple. It's very old school but still works.

The main problem is townies who decide to degrade their town game because they know they can't play well as scum. They have to muddy the waters.

I can't tell the difference between scummy town and scummy scum. Just like I can't tell the difference between townie town and townie scum.

If my opinions of how people should play is toxic to anyone I suggest you stop talking about them.

[Hikari Link]

People admonishing TF is gunking up the thread, this is a formal request that you either keep it game related or take it outside the thread.

Goddammit! Last post really was meant to be the last one, but this stood out too much, so I feel like I must respond.

1. If TwoFace were to understand the points that I'm making, then he might not scumread Transcend, which in turn would mean that he might not scumread his replacement.
2. His current attitudes have a strong chance of leading to mislynches, particularly with his power role. This discussion is extremely important.
3. Could we even take it outside of the game? I feel like that would technically be considered discussing an ongoing game.

All that said, I'm not attempting to change his mind. I'd like him to understand the points I'm making so that he'll change his mind of his own volition, but I ultimately can't and won't tell him how to think. To that end, I will continue to clarify any of the points I've made and respond to his responses on the topic when I can. I'm unsubbing from this thread now so I don't get anymore notifications about it until I am free.