Mini Normal 1908 - In The Web (Game Over)

[ThinkBig]

Official VC 1.11

Titus

(5): Ircher, Transcend, BigYoshiFan, Gamma Emerald, Hikari Link

Transcend

(5): TwoFace, TwoFace, MMM, Titus, -Grey-

Hikari Link

(1): ChannelDelibird

Gamma Emerald

(1): MortFeld

Not Voting

(2): Tarkus, MarioManiac4

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-05-16 18:21:03)

Notes

:
-Still searching for the replacements.

[Hikari Link]

In post 729, Hikari Link wrote:
In post 699, MMM wrote:
With the bit of time I have right now:
In post 692, MarioManiac4 wrote:
like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.
Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?
I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm asking you why that's the case. Other than insult you, what activity made him

so

scummy that even with a replacement, his slot can't be redeemed.

When Transcend was still in and I hadn't voted him yet it seemed to me like it could really just be a playstyle thing, but by the time he subbed out he changed literally nothing and just kept spewing what at least seemed to be nonsense the entire time. And I feel like it's deliberate, and hence scum motivated.

Wouldn't that be indicative of his personalty then, not his playstyle or his alignment motivations?

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

And now it becomes a trust tell... sigh.

It's not a trust tell, it's just NAI.

How can you reconcile these two statements when both of them subbed out when they had a large wagon on them? If they were scum, they were fairly caught. So if you say that they weren't caught scum, it sounds like a trust tell. I'm not trying to misrepresent you, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Wagons can easily shift over time even if for a few days there are only a couple of people that are being focused on/wagoned. Unless 75% of the town says a person is scum (or there is evidence from a cop/similar), wagons can change, and therefore scum is not caught at all.
Just because there is a large wagon on you, heck even if it's at L-1, does not mean that if you replace out the reasoning HAS to be that you're caught scum.

I feel like we have different definitions of "caught." And you're applying your definition as though everybody feels it is the same definition. For all you know, one or both of them could feel that L-2 is serious enough to be considered caught.

That said, I'm not saying that caught scum necessarily have to replace out because they are caught. They can be caught and they can be scum and they can replace out, but that doesn't me that they replaced out because they were caught scum.

[MMM]

obvtown
{Hikari Link}
{Ircher,

-Grey-

, TwoFace, MortFeld}
{

Tarkus, Titus, ChannelDelibird

}
{BigYoshiFan, Gamma Emerald, MarioManiac4}
{

Transcend

}
obvscum

Sadly can't do that much with this given that 3 people (Transcend, -Grey-, Titus) need a replacement and 2 (ChannelDelibird, Tarkus) have hardly said anything. The only one of those slots that I have any confidence on is Transcend (I know I placed Grey in my townlean pile but at the same time he always seems townie to me, and that's considering I played him in both my completed games so far, so my confidence in my read on him is low) and technically his sub can still convince me not to lynch him.

Also offtopic but how long's it been since mods started looking for replacements... 2 and a half days almost, I think? We might never even get them at this rate which would be really disappointing as I was looking forward to this quite a bit.

@Hikari response coming in new post

[MMM]

In post 729, Hikari Link wrote:
In post 699, MMM wrote:
With the bit of time I have right now:
In post 692, MarioManiac4 wrote:
like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.
Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?
I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm asking you why that's the case. Other than insult you, what activity made him

so

scummy that even with a replacement, his slot can't be redeemed.

When Transcend was still in and I hadn't voted him yet it seemed to me like it could really just be a playstyle thing, but by the time he subbed out he changed literally nothing and just kept spewing what at least seemed to be nonsense the entire time. And I feel like it's deliberate, and hence scum motivated.

Wouldn't that be indicative of his personalty then, not his playstyle or his alignment motivations?

No I think if he was town he would have at least tried doing SOMETHING, but yet he didn't. Unless he gets banned for being a huge troll or something that's the way my read of his actions is going to stay.

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

And now it becomes a trust tell... sigh.

It's not a trust tell, it's just NAI.

How can you reconcile these two statements when both of them subbed out when they had a large wagon on them? If they were scum, they were fairly caught. So if you say that they weren't caught scum, it sounds like a trust tell. I'm not trying to misrepresent you, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Wagons can easily shift over time even if for a few days there are only a couple of people that are being focused on/wagoned. Unless 75% of the town says a person is scum (or there is evidence from a cop/similar), wagons can change, and therefore scum is not caught at all.
Just because there is a large wagon on you, heck even if it's at L-1, does not mean that if you replace out the reasoning HAS to be that you're caught scum.

I feel like we have different definitions of "caught." And you're applying your definition as though everybody feels it is the same definition. For all you know, one or both of them could feel that L-2 is serious enough to be considered caught.

That said, I'm not saying that caught scum necessarily have to replace out because they are caught. They can be caught and they can be scum and they can replace out, but that doesn't me that they replaced out because they were caught scum.

We might have. And yes, I do tend to assume that I am obviously in the right a lot of the time even if it's not really obvious and sometimes even if I'm not right. Perhaps all my viewpoints on the matter of subbing out come from the fact that I have a somewhat petty dislike for giving up until having actually tried everything I could.

[Hikari Link]

obvtown
{Hikari Link}
{Ircher,

-Grey-

, TwoFace, MortFeld}
{

Tarkus, Titus, ChannelDelibird

}
{BigYoshiFan, Gamma Emerald, MarioManiac4}
{

Transcend

}
obvscum

Am I the only one bothered that I'm at the top of that list? Even above TwoFace.

Spoiler: Regarding Transcend

In post 729, Hikari Link wrote:
In post 699, MMM wrote:
With the bit of time I have right now:
In post 692, MarioManiac4 wrote:
like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.
Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?
I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm asking you why that's the case. Other than insult you, what activity made him

so

scummy that even with a replacement, his slot can't be redeemed.

When Transcend was still in and I hadn't voted him yet it seemed to me like it could really just be a playstyle thing, but by the time he subbed out he changed literally nothing and just kept spewing what at least seemed to be nonsense the entire time. And I feel like it's deliberate, and hence scum motivated.

Wouldn't that be indicative of his personalty then, not his playstyle or his alignment motivations?

No I think if he was town he would have at least tried doing SOMETHING, but yet he didn't. Unless he gets banned for being a huge troll or something that's the way my read of his actions is going to stay.

What are you basing that assumption on? Also, please point out the approximate post where he went to obvscum status on your chart.

Spoiler: Regarding Replacing Out

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

And now it becomes a trust tell... sigh.

It's not a trust tell, it's just NAI.

How can you reconcile these two statements when both of them subbed out when they had a large wagon on them? If they were scum, they were fairly caught. So if you say that they weren't caught scum, it sounds like a trust tell. I'm not trying to misrepresent you, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Wagons can easily shift over time even if for a few days there are only a couple of people that are being focused on/wagoned. Unless 75% of the town says a person is scum (or there is evidence from a cop/similar), wagons can change, and therefore scum is not caught at all.
Just because there is a large wagon on you, heck even if it's at L-1, does not mean that if you replace out the reasoning HAS to be that you're caught scum.

I feel like we have different definitions of "caught." And you're applying your definition as though everybody feels it is the same definition. For all you know, one or both of them could feel that L-2 is serious enough to be considered caught.

That said, I'm not saying that caught scum necessarily have to replace out because they are caught. They can be caught and they can be scum and they can replace out, but that doesn't me that they replaced out because they were caught scum.

We might have. And yes, I do tend to assume that I am obviously in the right a lot of the time even if it's not really obvious and sometimes even if I'm not right. Perhaps all my viewpoints on the matter of subbing out come from the fact that I have a somewhat petty dislike for giving up until having actually tried everything I could.

[/quote]Again, you're misunderstanding me and your feelings on giving up aren't relevant here, because what I said has nothing to do with giving up.

I'm saying that different people have different ideas of when they are caught. For example, I tend to feel caught as scum when 15%-25% of people suspect me and or when nobody townreads me. So you can't (or at least, shouldn't) apply your definition of caught to them when you don't know when they feel like they are caught.

On top of that, I'm saying that both Titus and Transcend could've considered themselves caught scum, yet still replaced out because they didn't like the attitudes of players in the game. I'm not trying to argue with you here, I'm just pointing out that there can be differences in communication and perspective that can be barriers to understanding somebody's motivations.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm suspicious that you figured his reaction would be along those lines, like setting a test he was bound to fail (in your eyes) in order to justify pushing his wagon.

What kinda reaction would you expect if he's town?

Him actually getting off his ass and doing shit in a way that is at least somewhat understandable.

It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything

Nah it really isn't.

Agree to disagree.

@MMM: Do you happen to have any completed games where somebody has called you an idiot or otherwise insulted your intelligence? This could easily confirm your claim.

No completed games on Mafiascum or other forums. I mostly play on PS where the games aren't stored [publicly] to refer back to later. Gamma might be able to confirm but I'm not sure if he ever witnessed a similar reaction.

With the bit of time I have right now:

like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.

Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?

I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

Yeah, I can confirm that he plays on a chat site. Not sure he's been insulted in the manner stated.

[XnadrojX]

RayFrost replaces -Grey- effective upon his confirmation of role.

Please be nice to one another.

[RayFrost]

/confirm

I'm going to read and catch up on the 33 pages of nonsense this thread is likely to be and then throw my hands up in exasperation before claiming I've got no results. Gimme a day or two.

Unvote

until further notice

[TwoFace]

If that was me and I was fed up to hell with the game I'd leave without explaining anything regardless of alignment honestly. Might just be me though.

I don't really see why Titus was fed up with the game though. I clearly missed something

[TwoFace]

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

Both replace outs though were unusual and both while under pressure

[TwoFace]

I still don't get the titus wagon ftr

Yeah I'm still waiting for somebody to explain it

[TwoFace]

Am I the only one bothered that I'm at the top of that list? Even above TwoFace.

I was about to ask why you were top.

[TwoFace]

UNVOTE:
UNVOTE:

Just until I can get a grasp on this game. The next few weekends are super busy and I just ran a half today and am exhausted

[Hikari Link]

Am I the only one bothered that I'm at the top of that list? Even above TwoFace.

I was about to ask why you were top.

And in case my tone wasn't clear, MMM, I'm looking for an explanation.

[TwoFace]

second

UNVOTE:

[Hikari Link]

@TwoFace:

MN 1848. I think one or two scum were on the wagon but a lot of town were too obviously.

I'm SRing Titus because her push on me is very bad and she has continually avoided my prods to expand on it. Similar situation for her Yoshi push.

On top of the push being bad and her never answering for it (or other things), she was pretty much doing exactly what she accused TwoFace of doing: taking "potshots."

[Gamma Emerald]

I didn't like her turnaround on Transcend

[MortFeld]

@TwoFace:

MN 1848. I think one or two scum were on the wagon but a lot of town were too obviously.

I'm SRing Titus because her push on me is very bad and she has continually avoided my prods to expand on it. Similar situation for her Yoshi push.

On top of the push being bad and her never answering for it (or other things), she was pretty much doing exactly what she accused TwoFace of doing: taking "potshots."

when did she accuse TF of taking potshots

[Hikari Link]

@TwoFace:

MN 1848. I think one or two scum were on the wagon but a lot of town were too obviously.

I'm SRing Titus because her push on me is very bad and she has continually avoided my prods to expand on it. Similar situation for her Yoshi push.

On top of the push being bad and her never answering for it (or other things), she was pretty much doing exactly what she accused TwoFace of doing: taking "potshots."

when did she accuse TF of taking potshots

Sorry, I meant you. I don't know why I said TwoFace.

[Ircher]

1. 702 by MMM really doesn't strike me the right way. I think 703 sums up my concerns for the most part, but I also think it's being stated after-the-fact.

2. 731 by Titus also feels off. But, I'm gonna try to avoid reading a lot into it.

3. 770 by Mario --> I disagree with your statement that I haven't done much this game. There's a lot of noise right now, so I haven't done much recently, but otherwise, I've done quite some.

Yeah, so a lot of noise and not a lot that I feel the need to comment on in the last 6 pages. I'm still convinced that Titus's slot has the best chances of flipping scum at the moment.

I mean, town!Titus for starters tend to be actively involved in the game. In this game, Titus just seems to be skirting by on as little as she can.

[ThinkBig]

[Tarkus]

VOTE: MMM

I'm not buying this stance on transcend. I don't think it's accurate or fair to say that transcend wasn't doing anything and was only spewing nonsense. Seems more like you're scumreading him for doing things you don't like-- such as attitude and trying to lynch you and titus. It's true that he wasn't explaining much but I think you're exaggerating how cuHrayZee rAnd0m anTi-t0wN transcend was acting.

Could also go for a Mario wagon. Seems to be coasting by townreading too many people and acting exasperated about it.

@Mario Could you elaborate on what about MMM's explanations changed your read on him?

As I see it we're bogged down in two slots that are now empty, and I have a strong feeling that scum's pretty content with the game state. I know I'm part to blame, and it's tough playing without a full lineup, and motivation is low after the shitshow, but let's get something going!

[MortFeld]

I want to lynch GE.

[Tarkus]

I need to sort him too. Got a case?

[MortFeld]

79 bad post

107 jumps into a discussion from 98 and contextualizes it as figuratively gladiating me and Yoshi. 1. completely unnecessary 2. the discussion was about who in {Gamma, me, Yoshi} is most likely to be scum so I'm not sure why Gamma would give his input there anyway

121 says he's letting people know his reads by gladiating us in this way which is bullshit (122)

235 see 238, 242, 243, 246. The fact that double voter is very close to IC because of setup history doesn't change what I was saying a whole lot. It's not that I don't think he should be TRing TwoFace there, it's that it feels like he got there so easily. Like the doublevote is a convenient way to justify prior knowledge that TF is town. 250 never answered, I think 248 was trolling but still avoidant.

That's the early stuff. I have to admit I've barely read anything since Transcend replaced out. I usually read sections of the game multiple times but can't really be assed this game. If GE has done anything relevant since then, lmk, but I seriously doubt it.