Mini Normal 1908 - In The Web (Game Over)

[Kelvin Smith]

You can't have a spoiler inside of a spoiler, which Yoshi's post had. You probably would've been best off spoilering each post one by one and also removing Yoshi's spoiler tag. Though if you aren't super familiar with BBCode, then it can be a pain.

Go ahead and sleep. I'll probably respond to that tomorrow. Got some things I agree and disagree with.

[MortFeld]

I never posted an Ircher case, how can anyone agree with it

[RayFrost]

I'm here now. Give me about 1-2 hours to collect my thoughts and finish my catchup read and I'll get a post out to you guys or collapse in a heap and actually write it up in the morning depending on how my exhaustion works against me.

[MMM]

---snip---
and it's not Ircher's fault that he is a scumlord.
---snip---

He's a scumlord... how and for what, exactly?

---snip---
This town would rather lynch 1559
---snip---

That's not even why I'd be fine with a PP lynch.

---snip---
than 1573, 1454, and 1392 (which ends up with "Oh wait lol we have to lynch PP"
---snip---

Lurker lynch d1 isn't that bad (if it's not someone who clearly needs a replacement). PP lynch isn't tht bad. And I assume when he lynched PP he might have seen enough people willing to lynch him that he could get, in his eyes, a good lynch, as opposed to a compromise lynch. I don't think pushing these lynches, on its own, makes him scummy.

But I feel like Ircher's ISO speaks for itself. His case on Titus didn't read like analysing whether things meant town/scum, just whether things could be considered scummy.
---snip---

This however I do admit is a decent point - I didn't like his Titus case a lot and it's probably the scummiest thing I've seen from him thus far, but in my opinion his other posts outweigh the quality of his Titus case.

I never posted an Ircher case, how can anyone agree with it

This also concerns me - and makes me think there's a decent chance at least one, if not two of the leading wagons (Gamma/Wheme, I assume) are scum, and them/their buddies are shifting onto Ircher, who would be town in this scenario.

I need a

good

case on Ircher to vote him - and the same goes for anyone outside BYF/PP/Wheme/Gamma for that matter.
I'm fine with lynching both main wagons including Gamma right now since both claimed VT, and at weird times too at that, which if I am right hopefully means that we're likely to lynch scum, and even if we do mislynch it won't be drastic since neither is a power role.

[ThinkBig]

Official Vote Count

WhemeStar

(5): TwoFace, TwoFace, PenguinPower, MMM, Kelvin Smith

Ircher

(3): MortFeld, MarioManiac4, Gamma Emerald

PenguinPower

(2): Ircher, BigYoshiFan

Gamma Emerald

(1): Tarkus

Not Voting

(3): havingfitz, RayFrost, WhemeStar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-05-16 18:21:03)

[MarioManiac4]

mmm the point is that he went from "I don't have strong reads so I have to compromise" to "PP and wheme are basically modconfirmedscum" within two pages
you don't get solid read structures that way. this is what Titus did x10,000 and everyone is just ignoring it

[MortFeld]

mmm the point is that he went from "I don't have strong reads so I have to compromise" to "PP and wheme are basically modconfirmedscum" within two pages
you don't get solid read structures that way. this is what Titus did x10,000 and everyone is just ignoring it

I've said I think Fitz is scum. People are just scared to lynch potential watcher

[WhemeStar]

So why do people want Ircher all of a sudden

[MarioManiac4]

mmm the point is that he went from "I don't have strong reads so I have to compromise" to "PP and wheme are basically modconfirmedscum" within two pages
you don't get solid read structures that way. this is what Titus did x10,000 and everyone is just ignoring it

I've said I think Fitz is scum. People are just scared to lynch potential watcher

I don't really think Fitz is scum tbh
What Titus did wasn't scummy because it was on a small scale- this is a complete and random change of viewpoint on the game in two pages

[MarioManiac4]

who do you even think is scum wheme?

[WhemeStar]

Maybe Ircher maybe pp maybe Tarkus

[BigYoshiFan]

This town would rather lynch 1559 than 1573, 1454, and 1392 (which ends up with "Oh wait lol we have to lynch PP", and I guess I can't stop that. But I feel like Ircher's ISO speaks for itself. His case on Titus didn't read like analysing whether things meant town/scum, just whether things could be considered scummy. He apparently changed all of his reads from "willing to compromise" to "townreading 80% in the game, must lynch PP." and coming in to try and tell Mort that lurkers should always be lynched d1 on this site --- what?

VOTE: Ircher

With Mort's vote, I believe that is on the same level as Gamma.

Those posts make me townread Ircher tbh. Also, I don't recall where Ircher said lurkers should always be lynched d1. I recall him saying that they aren't bad D1 lynches, but not that they should always be lynched.

[BigYoshiFan]

PENGUIN

What changed?

[BigYoshiFan]

GUYS STOP PENGUIN IS TOWN I KNOW IT UNVOTE

Sorry, that's the full quote.

[WhemeStar]

I felt like penguin knew I was town and wasn't scum, but voted me just to try and save himself

[BigYoshiFan]

I still don't understand why he voted you and what scum motivation he sees in the context that he did.

[MortFeld]

3 Votes for Ray (no IDGAF because lynching lurkers Day 1 seems like a bad policy)

I disagree with tht greatly -- lurkers ar good lynches if there are no better alternatives in my opinin.

You're Mafia??

What's that have to do w/ nme being mafia?

I don't know who taught you that lynching lurkers D1 was bad because that is how lurkers slip through to LyLo.

I didn't say why I thought he was scum because of that post, but he assumed. I don't think that makes him scum. But I can't think of too many scenarios where a person's explicit and truthful opinion on theory is AI and I feel like that's not the right assumption? The issue for me was not that Ircher was saying that lynching lurkers is sometimes viable, nor even that he was potentially setting up for a Ray push.

3 Votes for Ray (no IDGAF because lynching lurkers Day 1 seems like a bad policy)

I disagree with tht greatly -- lurkers ar good lynches if there are no better alternatives in my opinin.

My lynch pool current is {Penguin, Tarkus, Rayfrost} for PoE related reasons.

Ircher's picture of the game is very weird. Actually I'd say it's kind of similar to MM4's. Basically there is a very large group of people in a town pool and the lynch pool is those who are not in the town pool.

But the latter group is pretty arbitrary if that is the criterion. I think in order to even consider lynching Rayfrost you'd need to explain why Greyposting was not town because Grey posted a lot of content. And there are some people missing (me, Wheme, GE, MMM(?)) where the onus is on Ircher to explain why.

So you have Ircher's lynch pool in which neither Wheme nor GE are included, and then this big post by Hikari where they go 'Ok so consensus says Wheme and GE are the lynches now vote one of them' and all Ircher says is 'well hey, lynching lurkers isn't all bad!'

I don't think he's on my team this game.

Originally I thought 1592 was very bad. But the first part is not bad at all. And the second only has one minor issue which I don't even blame town!MM4 for.

[MortFeld]

I didn't really explain my issue with 1568 very well. I feel like it's a number of things.

Feeling that Ircher is just saying *something* to put words in the thread
Ircher not interacting with the entirety of the rest of Kelvin's post, yet he clearly read it

Also I was like, half shitposting half trying to stir the pot. The people under pressure at that point were like, GE Wheme PP. PP responded in a towny way, GE had been under pressure since fkn RVS and has responded literally the same since then, and Wheme is just a trainwreck regardless of alignment. So I just wanted to try something and I think it actually had good results.

Tarkus... again, is probably town but scum!Tarkus is very reasonable

[MortFeld]

The idea from 1551 actually came from the other game we're in, Wheme

[MMM]

Re: MM4

I strongly prefer Wheme over Yoshi and Gamma. I also strongly prefer Fitz over Wheme.

Actually, I'm fine w/ either Penguin or Wheme.
VOTE: Penguin

It's called compromise.

Also, when my reads aren't very strong, I am generally okay w/ lynching anyone who isn't someone I'm against lynching. Boring games contribute to those not-so-strong reads.

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

This actually makes me slightly tr Wheme -- I've seen quite a few self-votes but practically all of them have been town w/ the exception of self-hammers.

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

Oh I love when scum give up. Thanks.

No problem bud, how much will you yell at me when I flip town tho

If I flip town*

This also reads as town based on my experience w/ this stuff.

We are lynching PP because despite how bad Wheme is, I can see both his and Transcend's play as coming from town, ever so slightly.

(Or we can policy-lynch RayFrost on the basis of Lynch-all-Lurkers)

My lynch pool current is {Penguin, Tarkus, Rayfrost} for PoE related reasons.

I see progression, and I don't think his changes of mind come and go willy-nilly. It's also 5 and not 4 pages - in case it's of any relevance to your argument. Sorry but I just can't see scum!Ircher choosing these lynches the way he did if it's all you have on him.

[MarioManiac4]

it only took one townread for him to go from, "when my reads aren't very strong, I am generally okay w/ lynching anyone who isn't someone I'm against lynching." to basically declaring he cannot see pp as town whatsoever?

[MMM]

it only took one townread for him to go from, "when my reads aren't very strong, I am generally okay w/ lynching anyone who isn't someone I'm against lynching." to basically declaring he cannot see pp as town whatsoever?

I think I'm missing something and don't have the right picture here. Quote the posts that are relevant to this please.

[MortFeld]

I see progression, and I don't think his changes of mind come and go willy-nilly

I get that you're responding to MM4, but what is the progression?

[BigYoshiFan]

I can see why all that makes Ircher look scummy, but he isn't pushing for a lurker lynch right now, not even trying really. He's stating his opinion and justifying the others in his lynch pool because he doesn't like the other likely wagons. That's how I see it.

[MarioManiac4]

It's called compromise.

Also, when my reads aren't very strong, I am generally okay w/ lynching anyone who isn't someone I'm against lynching. Boring games contribute to those not-so-strong reads.

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

This actually makes me slightly tr Wheme -- I've seen quite a few self-votes but practically all of them have been town w/ the exception of self-hammers.

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

Oh I love when scum give up. Thanks.

No problem bud, how much will you yell at me when I flip town tho

If I flip town*

This also reads as town based on my experience w/ this stuff.

like
his selfvote is bad af as scum and I can't see scum doing it ever
His selfvote was evidently not a scumclaim now and although it is bad I don't think it was scum at all
(im going to feel so stupid if wheme flips scum lmao)

Scum self voting is not uncommon. More often it's as a hammer to avoid discussion but I've seen non hammer scum self votes. For the reaction you're having.

Quote me some non-hammer examples.

Soooo Ircher why you fine with voting me, and then have me as a slight toweread???

Please explain good sir.

I said that before I read those posts.

My reads have changed, and I no longer feel as confident in lynching you right now.

No, it becomes NAI when you do it as scum as well.

Pedt: I wonder as well....

Wheme, if I'm understanding correctly, you are handicapping your town game so that you aren't obvious as scum. I feel like you would be better served elevating your scum game. Better to be an asset to your team than to be a hindrance.

Half of the players on this site are doing this. ive been saying this since i got here. Players don't know how to play as scum so they dumb down their town play so they can skate by as scum.

It's why people get mad at me for pushing scummy people and being wrong. They should be mad at the people playing bad but whatever.

Yeah, it is an issue when players intentionally do it. But I always assume good faith.

We are lynching PP because despite how bad Wheme is, I can see both his and Transcend's play as coming from town, ever so slightly.

all of the read-related posting between Ircher's "unsure" post and "PP is basically modconfirmed scum" post is that he got a townread on wheme