Micro 708: H4rdcore Mafia (Game Over)

[moonbird]

Scum pool for me is duppin/zzx/infinity

I'm really in agreement about GL's logic behind NM being town: the wagon encountered no resistance whatever, even though the initiating vote from ZZX was weak and somewhat fency. Yes, as LQ pointed out, resistance is unlikely in a two scum game, but sucm also won't just wander onto a wagon on their buddy D1. Duppin's push on GL continues upon the basis that assuming NM is town is strange; given the context, it really isn't.

Duppin's stance on GL is shit in general. I don't likey. Nor do I like being pocketed by Duppin with, as LQ said, one day's worth of posts and my sudden drop-of-the-face of the earth.

VOTE: Duppin

momo's high horse is zzz

infinity's pushes are weird; i really don't follow their order, especially in 333 and 334. I understand the reasoning, I don't understand how the chain of thought unravels. Apparently GL recognized the same in 392. :^)

I like LaLight.

[Infinity 324]

I think the thing with 333 and 334 was that I posted 333 before I read 331 and 332. So I voted lalight for 330, then I saw duppin's point, checked back, and made 334. If that makes any sense at all.

Can we talk more about duppin and lalight tomorrow?

[momo]

Duppin is at

L-1

I will be fine with a hammer as long as someone states intent first.

[Infinity 324]

Can we not

[LaLight]

I don't really like the idea.

[LicketyQuickety]

ZZZX promised a Reads list. Did they deliver?

[duppin]

Duppin comes across like he is telling himself "this can't be happening"

I am not 100% that duppin is Scum, but it sure looks like he is really uncomfortable in this game. I think this is much more of a Scum trait than a Town trait.

Why would I be uncomfortable? I don't really get that invested in a game especially not when it is my first one back. I sometimes get a bit frustrated in the moment but well yeah. Oh and I've already said that I think it's fairly likely that the lynch is going to end up on me, so even if you thought I felt uncomfortable earlier I'm not sure why I would feel so now.

I do think duppin fears being made a fool of this game. I think he may be in over his head this game or at least feels that way.

Hm not really, although I don't think this is that bad of a read. But I really don't, I think my logic is a good and that is all I really care about.
I'm kind of curious though, if you think I had this mindset + was uncomfortable, would you really expect me as scum to try to push scum you d1, when you went very aggro, tried to take control of the town and had a lot of early townreads on you? It's WIFOM I know, but I'm not entirely sure where this read is coming from.

Duppin's push on GL continues upon the basis that assuming NM is town is strange; given the context, it really isn't.

But I disagree with this. Perhaps NM was town, perhaps he wasn't. Basing your reads on him being town, especially before he even got lynched, makes no sense given the setup unless you had a real town read on him, in which case it would probably be difficult not to, but GL had a null read on him. GL was also just speculating in 422 that if I was town (and several other players) it'd be difficult for him to find two scum, but couldn't that simply be explained by NM was mafia? I have no idea and we obviously shouldn't live in that world either, but I think we should forget about the actual wagon and just focus on our reads.
I'm also not entirely sure why he would hunt for 2 mafias right now, you should just focus on individual reads and then reconsider everyone after a lynch.

if you want me to see that you're town then the best thing to do would be to start pushing someone as scum? Like you're not voting anyone rn and I honestly don't remember who you last said was scum before I go back and reread. I don't see the point in complaining like this

I literally just pushed on LaLight and changed my read on him. I mean it probably isn't that unfair to have expected me to actively push more on players, but honestly that has more to do with this being my game first back, having to spend the majority of the time I have responding to the push on me plus my approach to the game. I said d1 I'm mainly looking for townreads in this setup and then I'll go from there. Actually I'm going to give all of my reads in a moment.

Nor do I like being pocketed by Duppin with, as LQ said, one day's worth of posts and my sudden drop-of-the-face of the earth.

You think I am pocketing you? Out of curiousity how do you attempt to pocket players as scum?
If I wanted to pocket you I would've either actively engaged you somehow or tried to defend you when someone pushed on you, not just give you a read town when giving out my reads. I mean unless you think that I think you're a super weak player and I'd be able to pocket you that easily, then sure I guess.

Also I just want to say that this is pretty much the main problem I have with the push on me, is that it's not really based on my actual content or logic but more so just seems to be pretty vague, like claiming my reads look fake without really explaining why or trying to claim what my intentions were even though logically it doesn't make sense. Like instead of claiming I tried to pocket you, why not address my read on you instead? Do you think my actual reason for townreading you is bad?

[Infinity 324]

I can't explain it for the life of me but I swear duppin is town

Maybe it's that I think scum would read over that kind of wall before posting it and it doesn't look read over

But I think it's just the tone. It feels so genuine to me.

:/

[duppin]

Anyway, I'm going to give my reads once more and elaborate on all of them.

LQ:

My initial read on LQ day 1 was that he was pretty scummy. I didn't like his actual content (like the no naked votes that early), didn't like the pushes he made and I really did not understand all the naked townreads he was given. I explained why I thought he was inconsistent, because if he believed that town should not throw naked votes around because it would be harder for scum to come up with proper reasoning, it would make no sense for him to accept naked town reads either because the exact same logic applies there as well. I also really disliked how he pushed this no naked vote agenda, yet he responded differently to the players doing so. Like he instantly called me scum for it, but when GL did it a moment later he asked him about the vote. So I thought the townreads on him were pretty trash, which was why I asked the players to explain the townread. I could kind of accept all of the explanations, but the read that stood out to me was GL's. I thought that read was really good and it actually made me lean town on both of them, which is why I backed off LQ and instead tried to work with him by asking him about momo's meta etc. I will say this that the only thing that worried me about GL's read was that I was speculating that either they are the exact scum team (which would explain why LQ politely asked about GL's naked vote) or both of them are town. I thought that the read GL gave would never come from a scum giving a townread on a town because I geniunly believed he had shown specific interest in figuring out LQ's alignment, on the other hand I could maybe see a partner do it to a partner, as he would probably be aware of what his partner was doing. Do not get me wrong, I am not actively pushing this world as I find it rather unlikely, but depending on how the game progressed, I'm not sure I'd want to bring both of them to a possible final 3.

GuiltyLion:

I've kind of already explained my initial townread on him above. It mainly came from the townread he gave on LQ. I also think overall he has played a pretty pro town game. I am still not a fan of what he did d1. He had a nullread on NM, yet still assumed NM was town before NM got lynched and based his reads around that fact. I dislike that read for multiple reasons, the first one is that his 'town' read is pretty much just based on probability.
That means that no matter who we ended up lynching d1, he could've pushed the exact same read. He also brought up the lack of resistance to the wagon, but there was another wagon going as well plus this read is also based on the assumption that scum would have no reason to bus - a read I am kind of inclined to agree with but it is WIFOM and is certainly not a read you should base your worlds around because that'd make it fairly easy for scum play around, especially given the fact that some of us had already mentioned that scum would have no reason to bus before this point. I'm not saying it is what happened because I think it is unlikely, I am saying you can't just base your reads around what you think scum would do. The correct approach to this game (in my opinion) is to focus on your individual reads.
I'm also not a fan of his tunneling, but I'd also gladly admit I am biased. Overall I still think his play is leaning more towards town, but there are aspects of his play I do not like.

moonbird:

I'm going to explain this read on final time.
I had no read on moonbird until 67, where he asked me if the only reason I voted on momo was because of inactivity. This was after I was getting pushed on for voting on 'mislynch bait' and the wagon was kind of being shutdown etc.
Moonbird's question seemed to imply he had an actual reason for voting on momo. I thought this was very townie for two reasons: a) I don't think scum would have had a real reason for voting on momo there, b) he had absolutely no reason to reveal it at that point, since the wagon had already kind of been shut down and I was getting pressured at this point. My thought process was that why would scum feel the need to reveal an actual read at this point? I don't think scum would ever have a good scumread at that point, especially not for 1 single post, so why would you feel the need to give out a weak scumread? I kind of assumed it would be a rather weak read, which I think it was. I said I really agree with the actual read, but I thought it was super town for him to have it.
So that's my full moonbird read. There is nothing else but I feel very good about it. The fact that he has been rather inactive since doesn't really change that much, because I still think that what he did was extremely town. If you want to challenge my townread on him, then I'd rather you go for my actual read and explain why I could be wrong rather than just tell me I shouldn't have that read because he has been inactive.

momo:

I wanted to lynch him for pretty much the majority of d1. Looking back at it I'm actually rather surprised it was so easy to lynch NM when it was so difficult to find support for momo's wagon.
I got a townread on him based on his interaction with NM. I actually now realise that I might be townreading him for a not so good reason. I townread him for pretty much dumb tells - like him trying to call NM out for his cop claim. Like that was so silly I just couldn't see a scum not being more aware. Given you told me he was mislynch bait, I assumed it had something to do with him being a rather inexperienced player that has several dumb tells.
But then later he claimed to do a reaction test on GL which felt a bit awkward to me (when he pushed on GL, then backed off as soon as GL responded and said it was some kind of reaction test). The way I see it is that if he was sincere about that being a reaction test of some sort, then it doesn't really align my townread on him. A player that tries to do a reaction test at that point shouldn't really be throwing out dumbtells like that a day before. I'm not sure I buy the actual reaction test, but that doesn't necessarily make him scum. I remember in some of my first games on MMO-C I was pretty quick to backtrack if someone kind of ruined my push or logic, claiming it was a reaction or something like that. I'm not trying to apply my self meta to him, I'm just trying to say I should probably revaluate my read on him, because if his reaction test was legit then that means the reason I had for townreading him is invalid. I actually think I should check some of his games tomorrow, perhaps that will help my read on him.

LaLight:

I think you all know how I feel about him. Had no read on him until he called me out and questioned NM's train. The read on me didn't seem consistent with what he had said before. He tried to push shade on LQ when me and LQ interacted (although he also said he townread LQ, so I kind of buy his explanation he gave me I questioned him about it). I also obviously wasn't a fan of his reaction to NM's train. It didn't make sense to me from a town perspective. I'm not sure there is any reason for me to go over this once again, because I've changed my read on him for one single reason. When I questioned him today I wasn't really a fan of his responses, but the fact that he changed his read on me also made me change my read on him. I just have a hard time seeing why he as scum would suddenly townread me there, from my point of view it doesn't really serve any purpose. Infinity did bring out a possible reason but I don't really believe in that. I think LaLight is more town though.

Infinity:

Oh boy, this is a difficult one for me. I liked him day 1 for his push on LaLight. Didn't like the way he opened d2, because I got the impression he was trying to make his way over to a lynch on me, which didn't really make sense to me since he had just pushed on LaLight for his read on me. I questioned it and I guess I can kind of buy his explanation, although ultimately I don't think it says too much about his alignment.
As the day has progressed his reads have kind of evolved. He seems to be townreading me now, and I guess he could be pocketing me and honestly, it's kind of working. My logic is that, if Infinity is scum why would he feel the need to defend me today? Seeing as it is flipless and several players seem to be scumreading me, what is his motivation? He doesn't really stand to gain any town credit from my mislynch due to the flipless mechanic, so I actually think it's more likely he is town.

ZZZX:

I still don't have a read on you honestly. I think the main problem I have is that your playstyle makes it difficult for me to read you. I didn't really get much from your interactions with LQ. Sure you responded fairly well, but it didn't really seem alignment indicative to me. I get the impression you are confident in your play as either alignment, which is why I'm more interested in your reads and logic at this point so I'd really like to see your readlist.

[duppin]

Wow I apologise for the formatting. Accidently ended up quoting instead of bolding.

[duppin]

Actually a lot of typos as well.

Oh and I obviously meant that I did NOT agree with moonbirds read on momo, but thought it was town for him to have it.

[duppin]

By the way LQ, what do you think about the fact that everyone seems to just accept the townreads on you?

[GuyInFreezer]

ZZZX has been prodded.
So is GIF.

VC in 4 hrs

[ZZZX]

Apologies. Been too busy last two days so couldn't provide a list yet at liquit. I'll get it tomorrow.

Had to renew my passport and shit

Also intent to hammer in 2hs

[ZZZX]

VOTE: duppin

[GuiltyLion]

ZZZX what is your actual read on duppin

I don't like how you hammered but didn't say whether you thought it was a good or bad wagon

[LicketyQuickety]

Let me get this straight. ZZZX promises a detailed reads post and instead they hammer without giving a reason?

I think we found our next lynch.

[momo]

zzzx just shows up at hammer without waiting when I have already bolded L-1 earlier on this page. on top of this, he seems to be trying to give no reason to sr him by lurking. tomorrow, i will vote him.

Pedit: GMTA LQ

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 2.2

duppin (2) - GuiltyLion, momo, LicketyQuickety, moonbird, ZZZX
LaLight (1) - Infinity 324
ZZZX (2) - LaLight

Not Voting: duppin

With

8

votes,

5

to lynch

[momo]

Voooooooooote Count

[momo]

pls explain this

momo's high horse is zzz

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 2.2 revisited - Oh it's a lynch edition

duppin (2) - GuiltyLion, momo, LicketyQuickety, moonbird, ZZZX
LaLight (1) - Infinity 324
ZZZX (2) - LaLight

Not Voting: duppin

With

8

votes,

5

to lynch

[GuyInFreezer]

duppin was lynched Day 2.

He was... don't get your hope up now.

Now it's Day 3.

The deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-18 18:08:44).

[momo]

pls explain this

momo's high horse is zzz

Moonbird this was for you

[LicketyQuickety]

IMO both Infinity and ZZZX are both equally Scummy. I really hope I am not wrong, but I don't mind lynching both of these players back to back.