Matrix6 BP fix

[Toto]

I still think we should just get rid of the BP AND the tracker.

Row 1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Row 3	Town Cop	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Row 4	Town Cop	Town Doctor	Mafia Roleblocker

[Ranmaru]

Maybe have a Mafia Rolecop in there too? In general I like what you have so far though.

[Gamma Emerald]

Why is JK/VT/goon in there twice?

[Toto]

Why is JK/VT/goon in there twice?

It makes it harder for mafia to fake claim doctor.

[rb]

may as well make row 2 something different without doctor than just another JK + VT setup though

i like the idea actually

[Toto]

may as well make row 2 something different without doctor than just another JK + VT setup though

i like the idea actually

Is this concern about aesthetics or because you think we should have more set ups?

If the former: you can think of it as just 3 rows where the first row has 50% chance.

If the latter: IDK what other set up we could add in there that has enough evidence of being balanced, and relatively town-sided. I suspect anything I come up with will be highly controversial.

[Toto]

Maybe a bit more clear:

				Chance
Row 1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon	50%
Row 2	Town Cop	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon	25%
Row 3	Town Cop	Town Doctor	Mafia Roleblocker	25%

1) Flip a coin, if

heads

choose row #1, otherwise go do step (2).
2) Flip a coin, if

heads

choose row #2,

tails

choose row #3.

[BTD6_maker]

Once Roleblocker 6 fills in the Micro queue I will enter this setup.

List3 is probably a more appropriate name for it.

Adding Tracker/Doc may be mildly Townsided. Follow the Tracker is not Townsided in Matrix6 but if the Tracker can always guarantee the existence of a Doc it may be more Townsided than normal.

[Zachrulez]

Jailkeeper is a pretty awful role for newbie games as well. There's just too few players and the odds of blocking kills are just too high with that role. (Every 2 kills stopped is an extra lynch for town in addition to the power role problem scum has to deal with.)

[mhsmith0]

Jailkeeper is a pretty awful role for newbie games as well. There's just too few players and the odds of blocking kills are just too high with that role.

And yet, in jk/goon/goon, even a block doesn't force a guilty result, as you reasonably have protected the target, or scum could have (suboptimally) no killed. I think it's a fine role for a newbie game; it gives the power holder a lot of potential strength, but it has to be played effectively to be good, and unlike cop it doesn't spoon feed information to the player who has the role.

I'd also note that JK/goon/goon has a town win rate under 50%, but not far under, which means that balance wise it's quite good.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not debating the balance. I'm saying that there are things that are likely to happen in a game with a jailkeepers that are more typical than otherwise should be. (Specifically stopping kills.)

[Ranmaru]

Make it 1 shot then. Maybe make all the PR's 1 shot or 2 shot. Just throwing this out there.

[mhsmith0]

I mean, I'd say cop is a kind of shitty role because the game becomes more heavily focused on "did scum kill the cop or his target" and there's relatively less skill involved compared to figuring out who might be a jailkeeper, who said jailkeeper might target, and working around that (and the reverse for the jk) compared to cop which is basically just "don't die, don't cop someone who scum is very likely to shoot".

OTOH cop is pretty standard role so might as well get people used to it. But cop as a role is pretty lame IMO.

[Creature]

We could like only keep tracker/cop/doctor/roleblocker, so we got four setups:
Cop vs Goons
Tracker + Doctor vs Goons
Cop + Tracker vs Roleblocker
Cop + Doctor vs Roleblocker

[mhsmith0]

Make it 1 shot then. Maybe make all the PR's 1 shot or 2 shot. Just throwing this out there.

Towns already have <50% win rates, in that world it'd go even lower.

[Ranmaru]

It'd make it so they have a role, and are excited to have it. Yet, they must use it with caution. "Do I use it n1, or n3?" Then, it'll force them to play the rest of the game out PR'less (or if they saved the shot, still with a PR) The simple idea of even having that PR is really fun because they can think of the possibilities of what they should do with it and appreciate it. With a full shot PR they can take it for granted.

"Cop as I expected, as I deserve"

I don't think the purpose for towns is to have a higher win rate, but actually have a harder environment (yet slightly less harder than a town without pr's at all) so it'll harden them and make them appreciate mafia for what it is and want to improve at it. I mean this is for newbies right?

[Zachrulez]

Make it 1 shot then. Maybe make all the PR's 1 shot or 2 shot. Just throwing this out there.

Limiting JK shots would vastly reduce the downsides of the role.

Problem with unlimited JK in the confines of a newbie game is that you start with a 25% chance of blocking a kill regardless of how it's done. The deeper you get into the game, the higher those odds get.

[mhsmith0]

Problem with unlimited JK in the confines of a newbie game is that you start with a 25% chance of blocking a kill regardless of how it's done. The deeper you get into the game, the higher those odds get.

Why is this bad? Like, this is basically saying that the problem with a role whose primary function is to prevent kills it that it has realistic odds of randomly preventing kills? (I'd also note that odds are lower than that, since it ignores the case where scum shoot the JK, or where it's JK/BP/RB, which lessens the information that the JK can get from a stopped kill, which helps to nerf its OPness a bit)

[Gamma Emerald]

Why is stopping kills bad
PEdit thanks mhs

[Zachrulez]

I would argue it's not 'good' to stop kills just for the sake of stopping them.

A jailkeeper makes a stopped kill in a game about twice as likely as one that has a doctor and two stopped kills = extra mislynched required for a scum win.

This scenario is pretty rare with a doctor but is probably more possible than desirable with a JK.

[mhsmith0]

I would argue it's not 'good' to stop kills just for the sake of stopping them.

A jailkeeper makes a stopped kill in a game about twice as likely as one that has a doctor and two stopped kills = extra mislynched required for a scum win.

This scenario is pretty rare with a doctor but is probably more possible than desirable with a JK.

You're still failing to answer the fundamental question of why kill stopping is bad.

In 7v2 mountainous with mandatory NKs, towns have 30% odds from lynching randomly (and in newbie games, I'd venture that random lynching is probably a pretty good description of behavior). To improve those odds, you give town some kind of power. Said power can be investigative, protective, blocking, etc.

So in that context, I don't see the problem with "maybe scum will need an extra mislynch to win" (since achieving that point requires pretty effective play on the part of the jailkeeper, since just one kill stop doesn't create an extra mislynch). If town gets an extra mislynch via TWO stopped night kills, that's something that town has earned, and good for them if they then enjoy the reward. What's the problem with that?

[Zachrulez]

I would argue with the JK that you don't get to that point via good play. If there's one scum remaining it's actually pretty simply optimal to just keep targeting the same player if you've stopped a kill. That is not a situation we should really be striving to create. At least if a doctor is present in that situation the scum can kill the doctor. If they're being targeted they can't kill the Jailer.

[mhsmith0]

So scum are in trouble if they

1) Lose a scum member early
2) Get targeted by the town PR
3) Fail to kill the town PR by say n2

... ok? Like, this all seems fine enough to me? In jk/goon/goon, town doesn't get to a dominant position until the first scum lynch AND scum failing to hit the JK, so to avoid that, scum need to not let any of their team get lynched or nail the jailkeeper first thing after said scum lynch.

[mhsmith0]

I mean, one of the defining features of matrix6 as a setup is that scum are basically screwed after a day 1 scum lynch, unless they're in a roleblocker setup and the lynch is a goon (and even then it can be tough). The precise nature of that screwing is different in jk/goon/goon than it is in, say, tracker/doctor/goon, but you basically get to the same place more or less.

[mhsmith0]

I'd also say that if you generally expect quality town play, then towns are overpowered in nearly all of the matrix6 setups, but since you don't really get great play since it's a newbie game, I'm not sure it's super relevant. Basically, in any of the six setups, there are mechanical ways for towns to crush the scum given early scum lynches, or recover from early town lynches. I don't see why jailkeeper sticks out as more annoying than any of the other setups, and indeed I'd say it's probably less so, given how annoying cop is as a role, for instance.