Real Folk Blues Rematch [GAME OVER]

[Insomniacs]

Tomorrow I will.

I have to get lunch and do RL things.

For now since mhsmith0 pings me and I didn't like his answer (he treated you better in In Memory) I will leave my vote here but PV needs a pokey poke if anyone wishes to pokey poke him.

VOTE: mhsmith0

--Math

[mhsmith0]

I should probably clarify that I like Titus and enjoy playign with her. But I don't think that her town game tends to be especially good, and her being aggressively wrong about silly things tends to be her biggest town tell. I've not really seen the standard fire that I see from her this game, which is weird, because I'm usually very good about seeing town!Titus when it exists (I think I'm one of the best players on site at IDing Titus fwiw), and I'm pretty weirded out by NOT having a strong opinion on her so far.

[Not Chara]

Almost, i'm still waiting on you to towntell here. or explain why you aren't. :>

[MariaR]

This is starting to turn into CIV Mafia again for me it's just page after page and I am trying to play this game mostly because I love the mod(s) and playerlist but trying to catch up feels so much like a chore instead of enjoying and trying to find scum I still have so many questions like "Is this multiball so looking at wagons is shit" "Why is ____ not engaging with me" etc etc I'd like if a few people shut up so we can get some other people talking because reading 20+ players is just it's a lot I don't know how you people do it

UNVOTE:

[mhsmith0]

For now since mhsmith0 pings me and I didn't like his answer (he treated you better in In Memory)

Wanna bet?

Spoiler: From In Memory

Subject: In Memory

I'm not building a scum-meta case on Titus, I'm trying to show how things appear in the context of THIS game. Also see above posts; I have experience with Titus as both alignments.

What if I told you that I had extensive experience with Titus and that she tends to be aggressive, tunnelly, and unafraid to strongarm lynches (even bad ones) as town, while as scum she tends to be more subdued and reasonable-sounding?

Subject: In Memory

So between game-time 27 and 601, the crux of Titus' case revolves around the PL comment.

Yes, she kept pushing that point, but the question is, did she do it insincerely?

Like, for comparison, just skim this set of posts from day 1 in rio (wgeurts ["Mysterious Lad"] was scum, while I, Secondhand, soah, etc were all town)

**SECONDARY SPOILER TAG**

[v"]mhsmith[/v"]

For the fifth fucking time.

[img"]http://i.giphy.com/lJIlmnkrqJRKcFdm.gif[/img"]

Can we just lynch smith now?

"tell us more"

with those three words, pisskop has solidified a town read unto the very core of my soul. I'd explain why but mere mortals cannot fully fathom the depth of my certainty here.

PS there can be only one yellow town player here, and I already have the lemon ninja avatar. Ergo yellow must be a wolf. QED my friend.

And with this post, you've became a scumread.

That's far to premature and this reeks of buddying.

"tell us more"

with those three words, pisskop has solidified a town read unto the very core of my soul. I'd explain why but mere mortals cannot fully fathom the depth of my certainty here.

PS there can be only one yellow town player here, and I already have the lemon ninja avatar. Ergo yellow must be a wolf. QED my friend.

And with this post, you've became a scumread.

That's far to premature and this reeks of buddying.

If that's the post that made you suspicious of him then what's the deal with your other posts about him?

First vote was semi-RVS based on a tell from another player off-site that I don't really value but I wanted to investigate. RVS is good for that.

That was garbled.

I meant another player off-site uses a tell that I am investigating. By that standard, mhsmith would be scum.

Then, he starts buddying.

Also, how sure are you that his last post was not a joke?

A joke claim in RVS = fry him. Pisskop knows this I believe.

Also, how sure are you that his last post was not a joke?

A joke claim in RVS = fry him. Pisskop knows this I believe.

Could you elaborate on what you mean here? If I'm not mistaken soah was asking why you were characterizing mhsmith's post as buddying and not a joke, which I am also interested in.

Jokes that imply scumminess = fry em.

It used to be a certain joke that happened always came from scum. (Namely X always rands scum). In general I don't like jokes that place others in bad lights.

Thor - Was my first town IC
.) Secondhand Revenant - no
.) Royal Ape - no
.) MysteriousLad - fair amount
.) soah - no
.) ljtrigirl - no
.) pisskop - fair anount
.) mhsmith - a couple games
.) spider - no
.) Yellow - no
.) Titus - years of experience
.) UpsideDownChuck - no
.) Azure - sounds familiar but cannot recall

What's complicated about

if someone says joke in RVS lynch it

so I don't consider the possibility of jokes in RVS that paint someone as scummy?

Like many many words obfuscating the truth

Add in mhsmith triggered a tell someone i highly respect uses

done case closed

My god. This one of those games.

If someone makes a joke in RVS and that joke throws shade, you lynch the "joker".
A player I respect has a tell that would suggest mhsmith is scum and I want to investigate its validity.
mhsmith is buddying.

What part about that is hard to get?

) There was no "joke claim", just someone asking me why I didn't consider your posting is a joke. To me, you were throwing shade, so it didn't matter joke or real. So rather than get into a semantic argument over what's a joke, just lynch all jokers who throw shade. That's what's true from games I'm in. I've seen too many "so and so always rands scum" jokes and they flip scum. So I am ignoring the "joke" defense.

Then again, you've answered part of what would qualify. Both you and yellow cannot be town because both yellow. That's a joke. Plus, it throws shade at yellow.

I'm not in the mood to discuss semantics. If it was a joke, it's a scummy RVS joke. If it wasn't a joke, it was throwing shade.

Seriously, not rocket science.

[img"]http://i.giphy.com/lJIlmnkrqJRKcFdm.gif[/img"]

Can we just lynch smith now?

Has your play style changed recently or something?
Little surprised you would even jokingly suggest that.

It's been a year. I have added a little bit of Mollie, Shiro and a hint of DGB (who I believe has the tell on Smith). It might have been Mollie retelling it.

Oh and I wasn't joking. We should lynch smith.

[MENTION="]Titus[/MENTION"] - I will happily compare bad tunneling instances versus you any time - I don't think it's a contest that will change my stance towards your play this last year. Your current push is based on air and you're acting like it's serious and then dishing at people pointing out that it's air. You deserve a scumread.

[MENTION="]Yellow[/MENTION"] - your vote on mhsmith looked pure survival to push the two competing wagons of which you were part of into an mhsmith leading wagon. When you combine that with your lack of real stated reason to suspect him along with no mention of it being a survival oriented vote, it makes your vote look very scum motivated. That's why I think we should flip you.

Royal's reaction to me calling him suspect looks scummy to me. Consider that a stronger read now.
Sora's reaction to my post is a joke - but he can feel free to read up on me all he wants.
MysteriousLad is starting to hug a fence, I'd like to see that change.

If you're town, get out of the way. The student has surpassed the teacher. Just because you don't get it, doesn't mean it's based on air. My push has withstood the litany of scum pushing against it and the counterwagon formed on obviously town Yellow.

I presume you've played with boring. Not a chance they are scum here. Yet, there's a counterwagon on them.

Let's keep it shall we. No butthurt negative reactions.

Gut evil .

[img"]http://i.giphy.com/BaIaIDLSXEI.gif[/img"]

Does that recalibrate your gut? It's off bad.

It maybe recalibrates it on you. Azure can still be evil though - right?

Theoretically, I don't have mod confirmation, but I highly highly doubt it.

Evil does something to save smith.

Like compare wgeurts asking about the tell to investigate, versus those who just outright attack with no questions.

wgeurts is scumhunting trying to figure out whether I'm blowing hard.

Thor, who has the most experience with the players who I drew my play from, has remained utterly silent.

Also, how sure are you that his last post was not a joke?

Take this...

He wants to get most players to dismiss smith as joking and jovial, the very fake tone Smith is attempting to project.

He is hypersensitive so he paints technical errors as scummy.

smith is just scum.

Also, how sure are you that his last post was not a joke?

Take this...

He wants to get most players to dismiss smith as joking and jovial, the very fake tone Smith is attempting to project.

He is hypersensitive so he paints technical errors as scummy.

smith is just scum.

So now you're disputing that smith was joking?

And you're calling me a wolf?

This would all be a lot easier if you'd communicate more clearly.

I don't believe in RVS "jokes" that paint people as scummy. That's pretty clear from my posting so far.

I'm suspecting it. Why else are you so desperate to have smith be labeled a joker when he was wildly throwing shade around?

Yeah, let's pretend the reason you're not voting scum is because I didn't communicate clearly.

If you feel there's something "unsaid" about my smith rationale, you can comment.

smith triggered a tell.
smith is faking a joking attitude.
smith isn't scumhunting.
counterwagon on obvious town.

Done.

Anything about that not clear? or just not clearly attackable?

Thor and Titus can you please quit attacking each others play if you're town? It just clogs things up and gets us nowhere. Work together, or ignore if you are unable to overlook your differences.

If you're scum, carry on making a good player look less reliable. Give us an easy way to get one scum knocked off our list.

There's no need for this otherwise.

You townreading Thor? To me, he's just chainsawing for Smith.

I don't believe in RVS "jokes" that paint people as scummy. That's pretty clear from my posting so far.

I'm suspecting it. Why else are you so desperate to have smith be labeled a joker when he was wildly throwing shade around?

Yeah, let's pretend the reason you're not voting scum is because I didn't communicate clearly.

You are changing the timeline here.

You initially attacked smith for buddying, and made no reference whatsoever to the other half of his post. A charge of "buddying" is one that necessarily requires a very careful analysis in order to distinguish wolfy buddying from a villager who is just making a read on another (presumed) villager. Most people do extremely poorly at making this distinction even when interpreting posts correctly, so it seemed to be of particular relevance that you appeared to not even be interpreting the post correctly. (To be more specific, it was the other thing you said, something about his read being way too premature, which would be completely invalidated if smith's post were not meant to be taken seriously, though the two issues were tied together to some degree.)

It was not until after I raised this point that you introduced the argument about making a joking attack, though you still referenced the buddying argument again later without ever offering any clarification about whether you were reading that part of the post as a joke as well.

You label smith as "wildly throwing shade around", which, again relies people actually interpreting his post as anything other than a joke. But you would have us believe that this game can be solved solely by blindly applying simple heuristics, with no examination whatsoever of context and the specific details of the posts. This, frankly, is absurd.

I have offered you many chances to transparently lay out the thought process that went into your posts, yet you have chosen instead to ignore my simple questions and engage in ad hominem attacks on me in place of explaining your own actions. Calling me "desperate" is begging the question. I started out merely by asking you how sure you were that the post you'd responded to was not meant as a joke. As you continued to evade my questions, I became more forceful in asserting myself, as it seemed that my original tactics were ineffective. There is no need for me to be desperate in painting smith's post as a joke, because such a conclusion seems transparently obvious to anyone who reads it, and even you yourself won't go out on a limb far enough to say otherwise. The only thing that I have been desperate about is to try to get you to actually explain your own posts.

I've laid out the thought process repeatedly. In fact, your opening betrays that fact as you accuse me of changing the timeline. Which is it? Did I lay nothing out? Or is what I laid out insufficient?

Nah, on page you say someone's buddying it's good enough to get things going. He was buddying. Yet, you are always there trying to force alternative explanations down my throat and claiming it's scummy not to agree. You tried to shove "joking" down my throat and now you're trying to say town buddying. Town buddying on page , why? You're the one that needs to justify it.

You were the first to claim joke. I don't believe in joke RVS. I told you as much. I even analyzed supposing your "joke" assertion was correct. Jokes that shade are scummy. I don't think mhsmith was joking at all.

Again, wildly throwing shade around is scummy, jokes or not. There are no "RVS jokes". That's just scum flailing.

You have opted to ignore my succinct to the point rationale and instead dismiss everything as a "joke" by mhsmith. He's no jokester.

[url"]http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=#p[/url"]

There you go mhsmith/wgeurts.

:<

titus is posting links to games where I get lynched as scum.

I dont get lynched as scum all that often. Hell, my win record as scum is like %

That's actually a coincidence. I posted it to show there's no such thing as joke RVS.

Mastina hydra joked I always drew scum and voted me. (Was scum)
Dave joked I always drew scum and voted me. (was scum)
Blackest Magic joked I drew scum and voted me. (was scum)
mhsmith "joked" that I was scum because I struggled with the vote counter and voted me. (alignment undetermined.

I've laid out the thought process repeatedly. In fact, your opening betrays that fact as you accuse me of changing the timeline. Which is it? Did I lay nothing out? Or is what I laid out insufficient?

Nah, on page you say someone's buddying it's good enough to get things going. He was buddying. Yet, you are always there trying to force alternative explanations down my throat and claiming it's scummy not to agree. You tried to shove "joking" down my throat and now you're trying to say town buddying. Town buddying on page , why? You're the one that needs to justify it.

You were the first to claim joke. I don't believe in joke RVS. I told you as much. I even analyzed supposing your "joke" assertion was correct. Jokes that shade are scummy. I don't think mhsmith was joking at all.

Again, wildly throwing shade around is scummy, jokes or not. There are no "RVS jokes". That's just scum flailing.

You have opted to ignore my succinct to the point rationale and instead dismiss everything as a "joke" by mhsmith. He's no jokester.

You're changing the timeline of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. And you have not laid out your thought processes repeatedly. For example, I've asked you at least three times what prompted your "Can we lynch smith now?" post, and you've refused to acknowledge it. You've also refused to give a straight answer about to what degree you interpreted smith's post to be serious or a joke, even going as far as to argue that such a distinction is merely a matter of semantics. In this post, you're now asserting that you don't actually think smith was joking, despite the fact that you've repeatedly asserted that "jokes throwing shade" are wolfy. Now that you're finally taking a stand that you don't think smith was joking at all, the burden is on you, the prosecutor, to actually make the case. So far you've mostly just danced around all of the relevant issues.

Nope. The burden is on whoever is changing minds. You're not going to vote smith because the truth of smith being scum isn't enough. I don't need all of you, just some of you.

Smith has been obvious scum since his introduction. The cheeky "caught up". There's nothing townie about him.

You want to derail his wagon, you find a better suspect.

@Thor,

) You should be familiar with the tell, because you've played more with DGB and Mollie than I have. One of them uses it.
) I laid evidence that jokes that throw shade are bad regardless of who does them.
) You agree that mhsmith isn't scumhunting but claim this isn't enough because no one else is. Like dude, shade patrol is out in full force.
) If you think obvtown is a bad stance to take, why didn't you pressure pisskop for it? I've taken obvtown stances and been right before. I'm frankly a better townhunter than I am a scumhunter. When I work from PoE, I am at my best.

Yellow has made it overwhelmingly clear that she never voted Titus as a genuine vote, but to demonstrate the sites voting mechanics.
Do you disagree?

I find it a little hard to believe you're unaware of this, neither do I understand why you persist.

His point is the one Chuck made - Yellow made a "joke" that cast shade.
He's asking why that got him grief and not Yellow.
The implication is that Titus is applying scumtells without logic, or that Titus has a marked agenda for who she wants lynched. Both raise issues with Titus' current push.

Now do you understand why he brought it up?

I think that this is slightly off, actually. smith was responding to this line from Titus:

[quote"]mhsmith "joked" that I was scum because I struggled with the vote counter and voted me. (alignment undetermined.

The post that is described here was written by Yellow, but Titus seems to be attributing it to smith. (Hence smith refers to it as mis-remembering events).

Ok that's fair. Given the number of allegations that mhsmith was joking, I did get something shifted in my notes.

Yellow wasn't clearly wasn't shade joking.

[MENTION="]soah[/MENTION"], You and I have very different views on "good" village play. Good village play to me is nailing scum and then persuading the thread to follow you and sheeping if confused and giving your townreads space to investigate. What's yours?

[MENTION="]soah[/MENTION"], You and I have very different views on "good" village play. Good village play to me is nailing scum and then persuading the thread to follow you and sheeping if confused and giving your townreads space to investigate. What's yours?

If your attempts to persuade other players result in all of the active players expressing bafflement at what you're trying to say, and your reaction is to complain about how everyone other than yourself is an idiot, then you're not even meeting your own definition of good play.

Do you see me giving up? Fuck no. I cannot control the comprehension of others. I can control continuing to pummel Smith into the ground because he's scum.

And what are we supposed to draw from this self meta flail spam mhsmith?

If you're aware of your meta, you can do whatever you want with it?

If your attempts to persuade other players result in all of the active players expressing bafflement at what you're trying to say, and your reaction is to complain about how everyone other than yourself is an idiot, then you're not even meeting your own definition of good play.

Do you see me giving up? Fuck no. I cannot control the comprehension of others. I can control continuing to pummel Smith into the ground because he's scum.

Titus the idea that smith's joke was intended to 'throw shade' at Yellow in any real way is preposterous. So it the idea that that's a reliable tell, witness your own townread on Yellow.

At one point you indicated you believed that smith went after you for struggling with the vote counter, then it was pointed out to you that that was not the case. That seemingly hasn't shaken your confidence any, neither have people talking about how you were misreading Yellow's intent in her joke post (which could more reasonably be construed as shade-throwy). What gives?

Yellow didn't throw shade. That's your interpretation.
mhsmith has thrown shade at everyone here, one instance not withstanding that I misinterpreted.
mhsmith rather than scumhunt has basically put up a bunch of self-meta and told the thread to go find reasons why he's town.

Titus the idea that smith's joke was intended to 'throw shade' at Yellow in any real way is preposterous. So it the idea that that's a reliable tell, witness your own townread on Yellow.

At one point you indicated you believed that smith went after you for struggling with the vote counter, then it was pointed out to you that that was not the case. That seemingly hasn't shaken your confidence any, neither have people talking about how you were misreading Yellow's intent in her joke post (which could more reasonably be construed as shade-throwy). What gives?

Yellow didn't throw shade. That's your interpretation.
mhsmith has thrown shade at everyone here, one instance not withstanding that I misinterpreted.
mhsmith rather than scumhunt has basically put up a bunch of self-meta and told the thread to go find reasons why he's town.

To be clear I don't really think either of them were throwing shade in a meaningful way (I hate that phrase in mafia by the way, it seems like a way of mischaracterizing people's scumhunting attempts). But if someone told me one of these was throwing shade:

[v"]yellow[/v"]
choo choo

Yellow, specifically tell us why you thought Titus was worth a vote there after she (tried to) vote me after my back and forth with soah? Any opinion on me or soah? Or spider for that matter?

Titus, you, and Soah are clearly all scum. Her struggling with the vote thing was just a ploy to get us to think she's an innocent townie. You and Soah are obviously scum-buddies trying to distance in the beginning while it's safe.

Spider is conf. town. Only town worries about their avatars. Everyone knows that. I realize that pisskop is heavily trolling, but he's town too.

Solved the game in . hours. New record.

"tell us more"

with those three words, pisskop has solidified a town read unto the very core of my soul. I'd explain why but mere mortals cannot fully fathom the depth of my certainty here.

PS there can be only one yellow town player here, and I already have the lemon ninja avatar. Ergo yellow must be a wolf. QED my friend.

It would be the former.

I'm not sure how your second and third points are even compatible with each other. Is it possible that what you're calling 'throwing shade' is actually his style of scumhunting, which differs appreciably from what you're used to?

No. I've played with mhsmith. He doesn't do this when pressured.

The idea is a joke that throws shade. Yellow wasn't joking. She was calling out a baseless scumteam to get the game going.

There can only be one yellow so you're scum is a joke like Titus rands scum a lot so vote her. It's not scumhunting at all.

Like, you can keep saying reality isn't true, it is true.

@Thor - I've already listed the people I've played with. I've never played with mhsmith before. You can have your meta, but I'm going to hold out hope, for his sake, that this isn't his typical approach.

I've played with him and am saying that he doesn't fake stupid.
Is your current theory that

. I am utterly wrong in my awareness of him.
. I am his scumbuddy lying to protect him.
. He changed his playstyle for this game in order to fool people.

I see a lot of 'meh' there.

You should vote Azure.

While it's true that I don't fake stupid, to my recollection, I don't think you've seen my wolf game. Have you in the past read any of my wolf games? Why are you under the impression that I don't fake stupid as a wolf? Or do you merely think I tend to be derpy as town?

Are you seriously arguing "I'm too dumb to be scum right now?"

I'm not really seeing the obv!town from yellow, but maybe I'm just being a dumbass. Is it as soah described or more than that?

[MENTION="]Yellow[/MENTION"]: were you aware that your vote on Titus wasn't counted when you made it? If so why didn't you just tell me when I first asked you about it?

I explained it in my very first post. In the post where I was doing the "voting". Your response looked like (still looks like) a retarded line of questioning. I responded in a way I thought fitting. You asked again after the vote count came out and it clearly wasn't there. So I figured on the off chance that you really were that obtuse, I even quoted it to you in red.

Now, you can keep asking about the same thing over and over again. You can keep at it all the way up to your deathbed. But I'm done responding. It's just making it harder and harder for me to be civil. Ask others what they think of it, turn it into the most convincing case mafia universe has ever seen. IDGAF, but don't look for me to rehash this again with you.

*sees the word "retarded"*, *hears nails on a chalkboard*

Ok, I'm going to try this again. Your post was scumhunting by suggesting a team. mhsmith has been shading people without solving them. How the fuck is that "selective"? I'm not pressuring people for being town.

And yes, I do agree people being dumb makes it harder to be civil.

I explained it in my very first post. In the post where I was doing the "voting". Your response looked like (still looks like) a retarded line of questioning. I responded in a way I thought fitting. You asked again after the vote count came out and it clearly wasn't there. So I figured on the off chance that you really were that obtuse, I even quoted it to you in red.

Now, you can keep asking about the same thing over and over again. You can keep at it all the way up to your deathbed. But I'm done responding. It's just making it harder and harder for me to be civil. Ask others what they think of it, turn it into the most convincing case mafia universe has ever seen. IDGAF, but don't look for me to rehash this again with you.

*sees the word "retarded"*, *hears nails on a chalkboard*

Ok, I'm going to try this again. Your post was scumhunting by suggesting a team. mhsmith has been shading people without solving them. How the fuck is that "selective"? I'm not pressuring people for being town.

And yes, I do agree people being dumb makes it harder to be civil.

Her post was scumhunting by jokingly selecting a team that she didn't actually think was the team? Is this really your read of what happened there?

Yes. Much like Clue. You throw shit out there. Then you get information. That's scumhunting. That's why I giffed her.

Oh, and it looks like there's a vote againat me already. Yep, this is the Champs game all over again. Except this time, instead of letting it go like I did before, which placed a wolf firmly in my definite town read spectrum, I'll keep my suspicions.

Doubt it's something people will follow.

Thoughts on Titus and her argument against smith? I think it's fairly ridiculous to push him all day over that

You're smith's buddy so of course you paint me as ridiculous.

Doubt it's something people will follow.

Thoughts on Titus and her argument against smith? I think it's fairly ridiculous to push him all day over that

You're smith's buddy so of course you paint me as ridiculous.

I've laid out why and I'm hardly the only one. Your logic is either terrible or scummy

You've recycled the "selective" point which I've already proven false, but you don't care because you want the attention on me and not on Smith.

Got any original thoughts?

mhsmith hasn't done one ounce of scumhunting, yet everyone says my push is minor.
mhsmith has shaded everyone fucking here, yet, I'm excluding the rest of the thread, despite putting a read wall up and having reasons for all of it.
I'm selectively scumhunting allegedly because I honestly highlighted Yellow is obvious town.

[MENTION="]pisskop[/MENTION"], Not funny.

I'm gonna throw this out there:

A bunch of people are meta-defending Titus on the basis that she tunnels a bunch, etc. This is creating incentive for her to continue tunneling, in other words, if she's a wolf then she's being given a pass for not being more productive and even as a villager it might (negatively) affect her play.

In order to nullify this incentive, I'm going to point out that in her wolf game on this site, she death-tunneled someone all of day (and died that night), and in her village game on this site she came out of her original tunnel and won the game alongside the guy.

Tunnelling for me in NAI.

I just am right though so...

**END SECONDARY SPOILER TAG**

Because tunnelling, even if it's derp tunnelling, is if anything town-indicative for titus. The key is if it comes across as her believing it, not whether the case is actually good.[/quote]

Subject: In Memory

What is more likely is Drealmerz is SK and mhsmith is covering it up.

~~Math

What possible reason would a player have to cover for an SK?

Why haven't you & Titus been lynched yet?

Do you think that Titus/math saying something ridiculous is scum-indicative for them? I would say it's town indicative for Titus as long as it comes w conviction; I admit to not knowing math well enough to say on that end.

I mean, in In Memory I took the time to dig up a bunch of posts from a different game we'd played together that made her look really bad, so I guess I don't see at all how I was "nicer" in that game? Please clarify?

[Vaxkiller]

I feel like town!ginandtonic does alot more scum hunting/game solving. I'm not seeing that here.

[mhsmith0]

Insomniacs and Titus are very unlikely to be scum together, so at least that was something helpful from the last page or so.

[Gorkington]

you could probably get rid of the entire playerlist as insomniac partners, so.

[mhsmith0]

You think so? That kind felt like a shitty pocket and/or an easy excuse to make a lazy hop to me. What makes you think Insonmiacs can't be part of a groupscum?

[Gorkington]

math is playing on a level that i just cant even remotely imagine scum being able to fake. like.
scumMath has absolutely 0 reason to shade NC and i there.
its something i believe coming from townMath genuinely thinking that me agreeing with some of their reads means that im buddying them.

why bother pocketing people if youre going to do stuff like that? lol. who do you even think theyre trying to pocket?

[Cerberus v666]

I should probably clarify that I like Titus and enjoy playign with her. But I don't think that her town game tends to be especially good, and her being aggressively wrong about silly things tends to be her biggest town tell. I've not really seen the standard fire that I see from her this game, which is weird, because I'm usually very good about seeing town!Titus when it exists (I think I'm one of the best players on site at IDing Titus fwiw), and I'm pretty weirded out by NOT having a strong opinion on her so far.

Hmm. I believe "fire" is the same verbiage chosen by Gorkington D1 to explain his suspicion of Titus. I don't believe I saw you express any opinions about her when the idea was brought up previously. Did you feel this way on D1, or is it a recent development? If it's recent, what prompted it? If not, why haven't you been pressuring her?

(My apologies in advance if I missed previously stated positions on Titus.)

[mhsmith0]

math is playing on a level that i just cant even remotely imagine scum being able to fake. like.
scumMath has absolutely 0 reason to shade NC and i there.
its something i believe coming from townMath genuinely thinking that me agreeing with some of their reads means that im buddying them.

why bother pocketing people if youre going to do stuff like that? lol. who do you even think theyre trying to pocket?

The obvious answer on pocketing there would be Titus.

I guess I'll mull over your argument otherwise; the back and forth pinged me a bit on Math, and I've been bothered by a few things here and there from the slot, but I guess I could just be ignoring something that is better for sorting them.

[Cerberus v666]

@Gorkington: not ignoring your question, I simply don't have an answer for you. I want to say something like Titus, Smith, and idk who else(maybe Not Fury, but that could simply because her whole cop thing annoys the hell out of me),but i dont have reasons for the suspicion.

[mhsmith0]

Hmm. I believe "fire" is the same verbiage chosen by Gorkington D1 to explain his suspicion of Titus. I don't believe I saw you express any opinions about her when the idea was brought up previously. Did you feel this way on D1, or is it a recent development? If it's recent, what prompted it? If not, why haven't you been pressuring her?

(My apologies in advance if I missed previously stated positions on Titus.)

See

That didn't mean run away.

VOTE: mhsmith0

Insufficient derp in this post to earn a town read. FYI I'm "on an airplane" with "the doors closing" so I'll be strategically lurking for the next few hours.

Only been skimming a bit, RachMarie is a townlean mainly because I've seen her scum game twice and both times it was ridiculously obvious and it isn't here (viewtopic.php?t=69441&f=56&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go and viewtopic.php?t=68747&f=56&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go for the curious). Titus isn't playing her usual town game at all but I guess I'll buy that it might be how she's choosing to play mason for whatever weird reason.

Will try and catch up more substantively tonight, leaving work soon.

for starters. She's basically claimed some kind of (I think?) verifiable town role, and it's pretty clearly multiball, which means even if she's scum faking it, she'd have known she'd be a target for the other team, which just makes her likelier town even if she's really not playing her typical town game.

So she's behaviorally suspicious, but mechanically at the very least not a short term problem. Like, what scum in multiball ever needlessly claims a role THAT early? Like, MAYBE some kind of goon (or BP/godfather ala last game???), or something obnoxious like character vig?

But it'd just be WEIRD I think to build a world where her claim wasn't just an actual real claim, even if she's skeezing me out a bit at times behaviorally.

Also I shoudl probably note that in In Memory, when she was a town PR (doc/neighborizer iirc), she also lacked her typical fire, so it COULD just be that I'm overly used to VT!her and she plays town PR differently.

[Cerberus v666]

Response unsatisfying. The quotes you gave conveniently don't include this rather salient data point in your read progression:

Where I'm at rn:
{rb}
{SQ, Titus, Tywin, Wall}
{doggo, rach, random}
{a bunch of nulls}
{cerb, daneler, davesaz, not fury, pv, ram, scott/ramona, sly}

None of the scumreads I have are screaming off the page at me, which is kind of annoying (there are a couple nullscums - Gamma, Insomniacs). Probably gonna wait and see what sly has to say for when he comes back before really doing anything unless something becomes obvious, probably gonna try and reread some of the key cases as well when I get the chance.

So, you started, in basically super early game, expressing a tiny bit of suspicion, then 800 posts later(and without any mention of her in the interim) she's in the top tier of your town reads? And then now, today, she's back to being a suspect? There are steps missing in this progression. There's nothing natural about it with regards to what you've shared with the rest of the class.

[mhsmith0]

I don't understand your point at all. Behaviorally she makes me a bit uncomfortable, but she made a claim that is nearly nonsensical to come from scum, and it's realistic that this is simply how she tends to play town PR and I'm more used to her VT game (she was also a PR in Rio tho, and she was pretty aggressively derpy there).

So in terms of my reads progression, it makes perfect sense to weirded out by her behaviorally but still think that she's town due to claim? Like I literally express that at

Titus isn't playing her usual town game at all but I guess I'll buy that it might be how she's choosing to play mason for whatever weird reason.

so I don't see any steps missing in the progression, or how it's at all unnatural? Explain?

[Almost50]

Almost, i'm still waiting on you to towntell here. or explain why you aren't. :>

The game is too big, and I'm old and forgetful. Who are you again?

[Cerberus v666]

First of all, she's not a mason? Nor is her she "verifiable" in any way. The mechanical things don't actually apply in any sense. Even if fhey did, what prompted you to start talking about her again if you've decided that her behaviors you find suspicious were NAI due to the mechaniCal claim? For that matter, how does someone whose behaviors you are expressly suspicious of end up as one of your top town reads in the first place? The mechanical argument holds no water. How is her claim nonsensical as scum? I said earlier that it's a very good claim in multiball because it allows her to actively be loud and participate while suggesting that if the other team shoots her for drawing too much attention they'll confirm a bunch of people as town. Basically, your reasoning on the mechanics and how that interacts with her play doesn't make sense, and the position you ended up at with these thoughts doesn't make sense, and coming back town the idea that she lacks her town fire when you already decided that didn't matter doesn't make sense.

[Not Chara]

Almost: really?
come on. help me out here. i joined because you asked and the game needed players.

[Hiraki]

so youre just trolling then? thats what im taking away from this.

Yup, you got me - you are totally not overreacting to this even after I explained what I wanted

like, hiraki, youre literally shading me and calling me suspicious, but implying that the average person doesnt think that thats someone calling them scummy?

Yeah it would be weird if I would offer my interpretation of you and then you decided to give me what was wrong about my facts and then also called me scum because i decided to come forth with something I said, wouldn't it?

i'm really not doing any ad homs and i still think you're a TR but I'm not gonna lie that your persistence toward this argument is annoying; you can do w/e you want at this point

I townread Rach.

Expand please

For example I am at the top of Gork's town list and I don't like how Not Chara in essence recycled my argument. Plus Not Chara agrees with me on Vax even after Titus said no to a Vax lynch so I don't know what purpose that serves. And it asked about Gork's reads when they are literally a few posts back.

These are weak and you know it

(

note that I am not calling you scum and there is no assertion of scum here and that I am merely questioning your motives here because i need to do this now

)

Math, you're SRing town blocks again.

I agree with this

[PeregrineV]

To add to my reads, smith is also a townread.

"Why, Pere? He so scummy?!?"

Because he's explaining where his thoughts and opinions are coming from. In staggering good detail, (which I applaud, because I think I stopped doing that in 2015).

I get he may rub people the wrong way, but I think that's more on the rubee, frankly.

[MariaR]

Pere going after Titus is more towny then it is scummy now that I think about it.

VOTE: Tywin

Back to this.

[Vaxkiller]

Pere going after Titus is more towny then it is scummy now that I think about it.

VOTE: Tywin

Back to this.

You dont think SQ's town result could have been on them?

[Almost50]

Almost: really?
come on. help me out here. i joined because you asked and the game needed players.

Aw shucks!! I totally forgot that I invited you in. I guess that makes me responsible for this mess. OK, I'll up my game here sooner than later then.

The key point that I'm still missing here is whether there are 1 or 2 scum factions. I know there has been 2 NKs already, but that could very well mean 1 scum faction + a SK. It could also mean a few other things, but most likely a scum faction + SK or 2 scum factions and no SK.. unless a 3rd kill has been blocked (which I can neither confirm nor deny because I honestly don't know), so I was waiting for N2 results to give me a better view of it all.

Now why would I care if it's single or multi-ball? I know YOU (Chara) already understand, but someone else might (and WILL) ask, whether it be in all seriousness or just to appear like they're asking questions. Well, it has to do with how people are voting and interacting.

For example, Nero got shot and flipped GF of the syndicate. Yes? It thus makes those who pushed Sly the hardest unlikely to be members of the syndicate, and I'd also lean than everyone who voted him might not be too. The syndicate didn't want to lose the two roles that would have been immune to investigative/informative roles. Are you following?

BUT ... can I automatically TR the entire wagon just because of this? The answer is NOT YET. Why? Because I do not KNOW it's single ball, so it might as well has been the "other scum team" pushing Sly for the lynch regardless. Of course the SK (if existent) could have been on that wagon as well, but certainly you can see the difference between "one scum might be on the wagon" as opposed to "the entire second scum team might have been on the wagon".

There's also the matter of fake claiming/fake crumbing coming from some players who might or might not be Town. I do understand and don't object to Town faking in some situations (and you know I do it all the time as Town), but it doesn't make it less confusing for me to sort out, and especially so in early game and with this many players (which in-turn opens the way for many possibilities).

If I try to focus on one thing and keep another unwrapped I'd look like tunneling or WKing, while if I choose to expose all and lay down all possibilities I might be pointing out stuff that went unnoticed by scum.

In short, I have some observations, and even some reservations, but it's far too early to out anything now. Like, remember how I slept on Wraith's crumb in our last game until he tried to fake claim another character? (Yet THAT also backfired because he was still Town) but anyway, my current file is a mess and I don't even want to out my strong TRs for fear they might get picked on, so I literally have little room to wiggle here.

Give until D3 and I will probably start giving you some good analysis with some degree of confidence.

P.S. I had played a similar game on another site (actually, that was my very first Mafia game ever), and I have followed the first version of this game closely, and yet FA seems to have changed a LOT from the two previous versions I saw. For instance, Vicious was a Usurper in the former, so it would have served him well that the GF was gone so early, but Sly didn't flip a Usurper Also the Bebop group were already in a Masonery in the original version, and were in a neighbourhood along with a traitor in the second, but they don't seem to have an already established "meeting point" as of yet in this setup. The original version had only one scum team, but 3 SKs of different killing flavours, while the second had 2 scum groups (and a SK.. I think??), so again.. too many possibilities for me to say I'm standing on solid ground just yet.

[mhsmith0]

@A50

Vicious

Ninja
Aligned with Red Dragon Syndicate


Ninja: Noone will be able to detect you when you're doing the killing.

Factional Kill: Your faction has a night kill. You as a member of the syndicate who kills with Katana, will be able to do this killing as well.

Factional Chat: You can talk with the other members of the syndicate at any time in here.

You will win if the red dragon syndicate controls 50% of the votes or more

and no other type of scum (Enemy of Town) are alive

.

It's multiball or the mod is outright trolling everyone. Proceed as if the mod announced in thread that it's multiball (since he basically did).