I see where jj is coming from with that case but he doesn't really address why she'd be on Not_Mafia at that moment in time. Her defense is weak (and hard to read ffs) but I'm more inclined to let those two play than get involved really.
I mostly want Kowls to get in here and do things.
Un game related, but sorry for difficult to read posts - if you have ways you'd like me to make them easier to read do let me know. I was wary, i think, of messing with quote tags/spoiler tage, cause I reckon I'd probs have fucked something up.
In post 440, jjh927 wrote:For the record Zito, I'm staying out of your push on Kawl for the same reason as you're staying out of mine on Cece.
Cece- who is your main scumread right now?
Agh I was gonna do a proper readthrough tonight, particularly looking at everyone's interactions with NM, but decided to get hammered instead. Gutwise, without a recent detailed readthrough, I'm not feeling ok with Zito. His townread on me (and probs other people save tchill) feels super weak - its not like I lead the lynch on NM and tbf even if my case was strong-ish, without the fake BP claim it wouldn't have lead to a lynch. I don't like the only wagon/lynch crew justification for townreads, I think I mentioned earlier but it feels like an easy copout.
Saying 'Cece's town cause she was first on NM with a case' - eh, it's weak and if I were scum I could've easily done the same thing. I don't reckon there would've been a way for scum me to figure out that would lead to a lynch. Although maybe it would be too strong/long a case? I dunno. Feels off to me.
Lol I reckon I just don't like the pure-wagon reading, it seems too open to mistakes, and too pointable to "here are solid facts! My reads are based on facts, not opinions! You can't read me as scum for this, it's all based on facts!
Sorry for any mistakes. Also, sorry for focusing on Zito's stuff on me, haven't had a chance to properly sit down and take notes &c, so the bits I remember are largely the stuff that concerns me.
Am not voting for these reasons also, but my main - not scumread, is not that strong - but off-feeling is Zito atm.
Here is my reasoning (post 449). Accusing me of voting w/o reasoning is as disingenuous as accusing Arnold of hammering without reasoning.
Last edited by PenguinPower on Fri May 19, 2017 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
I've once again hit that "you're not playing how I want" wall. sigh
A takeaway from this game that I will reiterate when it's over - you need to be looking at motivations behind actions, not just actions themselves. You need to be looking at things in context, not in isolation. What you really should be asking is "why did Zito decide to apply a vote to someone and not explain why" instead of just saying "he refused to explain why!" You should be asking "why is Zito more interested in looking at votes just before the claim, why does he put more weight on interactions with the flipped scum slot, who does that benefit?" instead of "he just looks at facts!" What you should be examining is which team benefits from my actions?
I've once again hit that "you're not playing how I want" wall.
In post 474, Cece wrote:
I might disagree with purely wagon/vote reasoning, which is a way of playing and isn't in itself necessarily scummy --- if I thought that it would be p shitty cause that's kind of 'my way or the highway' thinking. But, I don't like the way you do it. I also don't like the relatively easy defence of "facts" that you use, and PARTICULARLY the fact that you've set up your reads and reasons for your reads in such a way, that you can defend yourself by defending a strategy. That's analysis of theory, and not a defence of play.
Just to point out that I tried to make it clear that it wasn't purely for the strategy, but the way in which it was excetuted.
Although........thinking it thru, I may not have made quite enough of an effort to separate the two in my own mind. It is possible that my dislike of the strat is influencing my read on you, which I'd like not to happen.
So, UNVOTE: Papa Zito
This is only until I can read through post work tomorrow and make absolutely sure my read on Z is unconnected to the value of the strategy, and not for the way he employs it. I'd do it now but tis late and working tomoz, not in the best frame of mind.
And also, assuming the latter is the case rather than the former, I'll also attempt to clarify my exact problems with the way he employs the strat. off to bed now, till tomorrow.
In post 468, Papa Zito wrote:To me at least hard data are basically objective facts. Soft data would be stuff like behavioral patterns or anything else that requires interpretation.
I'm insulted because that's incredibly subpar play. Scum need options, limiting myself as scum is stupid. If my "hard tunnel" (note - this conversation means that point is moot) fails and I don't get that lynch then I'm stuck. Or if Kawl suddenly turns on the gas and reveals himself to be the best mafia player ever then I can't NK him.
Getting back to the original topic - is there not anything more concrete to your case than the fact you dislike my reads? Is there not any other player who you view as worse for any reason? If I were lynched today and flipped town what would you do next?
Suggesting scum wouldn't play a certain way is shortsighted. Because if that were true, every scum would attempt to play like that. If scum can't get the mislynch they want, that's even better. They won't be accountable for it.
It's not the fact that I dislike your reads, it's the fact that I think your reads are forced/based on bad logic. If you would flip town, I would look into Kawl, your suspect, a little more. To me, he is still a null read. Another slot I want to see more from is Cero, who hasn't posted since the day started.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
Sorry for not posting, busy week for me. I just read through the thread since we went into night. I just want to say that town votes would be considered hard data, but it should be analyzed in conjunction with the soft data from the rest of the game. From my reading this morning it seems that this might be why Zito's commentary might be sounding off since he doesn't seem to be incorporating the soft data as much as the group might like. Not trying to defend anyone here, but we should try to analyze the data at the time.
Also Zito, I know you keep bringing up the fact that you don't have to play the way people believe you should play as the IC, but from my perspective it comes with the job. The fact that you are an IC means you hold more sway than most and that your moves mean more than most. You are the role model to new players which makes it a type of PR in a way. That being said it's really off putting when you tell the group what is essentially f u I play the way I want, you need to figure out why. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but we have to be very cautious if you are scum since you would hold more power than if you were playing in a regular game.
I want to read Cece's updated argument on Zito before I vote.
So I'm a little worried about Zito, because he seems to be targeted right now because of his approaches to his arguments. Honestly its generally my policy to worry about everyone except for confirmed towns like tchill. I'm trying to analyze is what advantages do scum have from killing Zito? I ask because this isn't a simple yes he's scum case and we need to be able to think what scum would like to happen since they are placed in a hard place. There is only 1 scum left so my gut tells me they want the town to hone in on someone who isn't them. I guess the way Zito isn't too bothered by his current situation makes me wonder.
As for Cece, I'm not to sure to be honest. Zito did add her to his townlist early on day 2, which was made with information he had at the time. If she is scum why challenge him to the point of adding him to L-1?
But just some of my thoughts at the moment.
Also I'll be heading out for work around 10:30, so if anything please ask me more before I have to go. Thanks.
People trying to push Zito are basically just patting each other on the back and not saying anything that actually indicates he's scum. Also I like how he was making an effort to gamesolve before he had to start defending himself against arguments with no merit.
I'm not a big fan of how he's made his townreads, but the case on Kawl is alright. I just don't think Kawl is scum because of how first-hand interactions have gone. Zito's attitude/tone has been consistent within itself so I don't see any issue with his style of play. It's actually how he is playing, as opposed to him explaining it away as such.
So yeah, Zito is the mislynch target for scum right now, because they'd expect him to be more clued in than the other players on scumhunting and there's not going to be a better opportunity to get him lynched than today, when a couple of people had lingering suspicions on him.
Went back and re-read a few things. After a few thoughts I'm thinking Arnold or Cece should be lynched today. I'm just not sure which one. I'd prefer that jj and Zito give their reads on which of the 2 they think is scum. Arnold hammered NM and specifically stated that he doesn't think hammering there would give town cred. Specifically stating that he shouldn't get town cred stands out to me. I really, really like jj's case against Cece.
Also this is a thing. Not sure why. Wouldn't it be funny if they were mafia together?
I apologize if I repeat anything anyone has said about Cece to this point just trying to build my own case. OK so this post needs more attention. If Cece is scum To me this comes off as cece trying to push a possible scum pair EARLY. She would know NM is scum and seeing how NM looked scummy for the entirety of his game she could sense it was going in a bad direction. Which is why she would "shade" this as jj put it.
