Micro 713: 5p Vengeful (Endgame)

[MortFeld]

You say it's talking about how ASP, tenshii, and me went in too hard. I say it's about how we were too aggressive. That's the same thing. I responded by saying it wasn't too aggressive since te aggression helps us get reads.

You're moving the goalpoasts here. My issue is this progression:

Because you guys were like "why the fuck would you say that" "100% this" "if he's town, he's playing against his wincon" "FOS vij, he's bluffing having a vengeshot" (FOS I Havent seen in years so thanks for making me laugh). You guys went in real hard.

Why won't that help us form reads?

Vij in 26 says he thinks people went in too hard on stuff - the only real implication is that stuff is NAI. You said "why won't that help us form reads?" That question presupposes that Vij said something to the effect that what people were doing wouldn't help form reads. Or, as you said,

26 implies everyone was too aggressive and that didn't help anyone. 27 is pointing out that that will help us form reads.

But that's why I said we're apparently reading different posts, because Vij never said "You guys went in too hard and that won't help anyone!" He only said "You guys went in too hard." So your 27 is a question that Vij can't even really answer. For a crude comparison,

Person A: I hate chocolate ice cream.
Person B: Why won't chocolate ice cream give you more energy?
Person A: What are you talking about?

[MortFeld]

Why won't that help us form reads?

I also don't like the phrasing here. Infinity speaking for Infinity? Reasonable. Infinity speaking for a group who are all nebulously pushing the same person? Fishy.

[MortFeld]

Tenshii 19 is a fallacy.

Why/How?

I mean, do you?

Assuming he's invested into playing to his wincon, I can't see why town would offer a self lynch.

1. Scum would also have no reason to offer a self lynch.
2. He didn't offer a self lynch. He contemplated one.

Completely forgot
3. He didn't even contemplate a self lynch - he contemplated a self vote.

[MortFeld]

Idk why I said 19 was a fallacy, it was just off base.

[Infinity 324]

You say it's talking about how ASP, tenshii, and me went in too hard. I say it's about how we were too aggressive. That's the same thing. I responded by saying it wasn't too aggressive since te aggression helps us get reads.

You're moving the goalpoasts here. My issue is this progression:

Because you guys were like "why the fuck would you say that" "100% this" "if he's town, he's playing against his wincon" "FOS vij, he's bluffing having a vengeshot" (FOS I Havent seen in years so thanks for making me laugh). You guys went in real hard.

Why won't that help us form reads?

Vij in 26 says he thinks people went in too hard on stuff - the only real implication is that stuff is NAI. You said "why won't that help us form reads?" That question presupposes that Vij said something to the effect that what people were doing wouldn't help form reads. Or, as you said,

26 implies everyone was too aggressive and that didn't help anyone. 27 is pointing out that that will help us form reads.

But that's why I said we're apparently reading different posts, because Vij never said "You guys went in too hard and that won't help anyone!" He only said "You guys went in too hard." So your 27 is a question that Vij can't even really answer. For a crude comparison,

Person A: I hate chocolate ice cream.
Person B: Why won't chocolate ice cream give you more energy?
Person A: What are you talking about?

Ok I get where I skipped a step but I don't see why that is a problem. If being as aggressive as we were helps us form reads, then it can't be too aggressive. So I think it was still a totally valid question.

[Infinity 324]

Why won't that help us form reads?

I also don't like the phrasing here. Infinity speaking for Infinity? Reasonable. Infinity speaking for a group who are all nebulously pushing the same person? Fishy.

I was speaking for the whole town. One push helps everyone form reads.

[MortFeld]

Ok I get where I skipped a step but I don't see why that is a problem. If being as aggressive as we were helps us form reads, then it can't be too aggressive. So I think it was still a totally valid question.

Why won't that help us form reads?

How should a townie answer this? And what is a suspicious answer?

Why won't that help us form reads?

I also don't like the phrasing here. Infinity speaking for Infinity? Reasonable. Infinity speaking for a group who are all nebulously pushing the same person? Fishy.

I was speaking for the whole town. One push helps everyone form reads.

Vij was saying that people went in too hard on him. While Vij didn’t take any specific conclusions from this, the implication is that Vij thinks the way people pushed him for NAI stuff is suspicious. A townie pushing Vij there obviously knows that their push was not scum motivated, which is why you speaking for yourself would be reasonable. But the fact that you assumed off the bat that Tenshii and ASP were also pushing Vij in order to help form reads is what’s fishy since you did not even consider that Vij might have a point and that they were going in too hard. The idea pinging me is that one of Tenshii/ASP is your scum partner and you were unconsciously protecting them.

[MortFeld]

Like. Do you really feel like the level of aggressiveness was warranted? i.e. did it help you form reads, and judging from their posts do you think it helped ASP/Tenshii form reads too?

[Infinity 324]

How should a townie answer this? And what is a suspicious answer?

"I guess it might but I didn't think that direction was a good one"

"Bad pushes don't generate good reads"

Or some other reason

The first one would be somewhat suspicious, but I think the question is mainly useful to hold vij to a certain playstyle if he's scum. If he doesn't think pushes based on weak things make good reads, then he can't later do that and say he was just trying to get reactions out of it. Anyway this is all hypotheticals but you can kinda see my thought process with asking that question.

[Infinity 324]

Like. Do you really feel like the level of aggressiveness was warranted? i.e. did it help you form reads, and judging from their posts do you think it helped ASP/Tenshii form reads too?

Yes I do, and that's why I didn't question their pushes. Of course they could be scum for other reasons, but their pushes is not one of them.

Also if vij thought the pushes were significantly scummy, he would've specified who and why.

[Tenshii]

@ASP

Why do you have Vij as "gut lean town" and why would you be willing to lynch Mort?

[A Simple Plan]

@ASP

Why do you have Vij as "gut lean town" and why would you be willing to lynch Mort?

As much as I disagree with any town having a mindset of "maybe I should self-vote", my gut tells me that scum wouldn't be that ballsy in a vengeful. And whether it was preconceived or not, it got the game moving and gave us something to talk about. I may not agree with the mechanic behind it, but I don't think scum would've made such a move.

In terms of Mort, like I previously said, a lot of his posts were nothing more than fancy busy-work. Examples include 36 (just listing off responses to other posts), 38 (asking a question and then offering his own answer to it), and after my post commenting on it, 46, specifically the first bullet, "I think I was talking about"... does he not even know what he was talking about? That further suggest to me that he was saying things to look active and engaged rather than to actually gain anything from what he was offering.

Yknow what, sure.

VOTE: MortFeld

[Tenshii]

@Mod I will be V/LA from Friday to Monday.

[RadiantCowbells]

Game start!

Votecount 1.01:

Tenshii (0):
MortFeld (1): ASP
A Simple Plan (0):
Vijarada (0):
Infinity 324 (0):

Not Voting: Everyone

[Tenshii]

VOTE: MortFeld

I think ASP can only be teamed with Infinity.

[Tenshii]

That's L-1.

[Infinity 324]

Why is mort scum?

[Tenshii]

Actually I should be voting here

VOTE: Infinity

[Infinity 324]

Why am I scum?

[A Simple Plan]

Actually I should be voting here

VOTE: Infinity

Why? I don't see what you're getting at.

[Tenshii]

I think ASP can only be teamed with Infinity.

Following the above:

Infinity Town Flip = ASP Town
Infinity Scum Flip = Scum Lynch

[Infinity 324]

And why can't ASP be partners with anyone else?

[RadiantCowbells]

second set of prods.

if I have to prod anyone even once again there will be a force replace.

[MortFeld]

I will not be prodded again. My back to back shifts are over, and my offsite game is done. I have won.

I do feel bad about my activity level here but not too bad because nightmare shifts. But let's step it up.

Why is mort scum?

What do you think about 61?

VOTE: MortFeld

I think ASP can only be teamed with Infinity.

Is this vote based on 61, or on 70, or on something else?

Like. Do you really feel like the level of aggressiveness was warranted? i.e. did it help you form reads, and judging from their posts do you think it helped ASP/Tenshii form reads too?

Yes I do, and that's why I didn't question their pushes. Of course they could be scum for other reasons, but their pushes is not one of them.

Also if vij thought the pushes were significantly scummy, he would've specified who and why.

Fair enough. You're also town leaning Vij IIRC so it's not like you're using perceived lack of follow up to push them. I do still dislike the question in 27, it is a leading question with a hidden premise and I think it could potentially 'trap' a townie into saying something that appears scummy. But I don't think your intent was to do that.

[MortFeld]

I think ASP can only be teamed with Infinity.

Following the above:

Infinity Town Flip = ASP Town
Infinity Scum Flip = Scum Lynch

And why can't ASP be partners with anyone else?

Yeah, where are you getting this PoE? Is it PoE? Game is extremely young (in posts, not time) and barely any pushes have happened from which to form associations.