UK Pol - #independenceday

[Max]

The EU is pretty representative of the national governments of Europe. And when Western Europe shifted leftwards, we added a load of right wing Eastern European countries which kept the majority being right-wing.

Like put in right wing governments, get out right wing policies. Seems reasonable to me.

[Max]

Like just a quick glance at the dominance of right wing ideology across Europe from this image (and remember that France will have shifted since then):

https://mobile.twitter.com/PoliticsWolf ... 48/photo/1 (I can't get image embedding to work...)

Long term, governments change and they tend to change to be anti-status-quo. When there's a majority of left-wingers in Europe, the policy will be more left wing. (See the 90s, where employment rights such as the working time directive came into existence)

[Randomnamechange]

in terms of brexit negotiations, corbyn understands that there is going to be give and take and would be more inclined to do stuff like guarantee EU worker's rights (so the NHS doesn't get fucked over as an example of why this is good for both parties).May is going with a hyper aggressive, take as much as we can attitude which isn't going to achieve anything because we have a weaker standpoint. Corbyn is more likely to give the EU reasons to work with us than May. (at least from what ive seen)

[Max]

Last night was interesting. But neither party did anything interesting enough to win. Corbyn beating expectations surely can't win votes against a poor May performance, unless it is TERRIBLE.

[Nexus]

No deal is better than a bad deal.

[Max]

A) a beacon of stability, B) looking out for the best in Britain and C) refuses to acknowledge that Britain will be worse off after Brexit.

They can't all be true, but the spin says otherwise.

[shaft.ed]

B) looking out for the best in Britain

clearly they mean looking out for the people without an debilitations, ie the best
screw the moochers

[zoraster]

No deal is better than a bad deal.

It's hard to imagine a deal bad enough it'd be worse than no deal at all.

[Nexus]

No deal is better than a bad deal.

It's hard to imagine a deal bad enough it'd be worse than no deal at all.

T. May, 29.5.17, about twenty times.

[zoraster]

Can you specify? I really don't want to watch two hours of that.

[Nexus]

She was asked whether or not she would walk away from a Brexit deal if she didn't get exactly what she wanted or if she had to pay too much to get what she wanted. She said yes, and that "No deal was better than a bad deal."

[Randomnamechange]

gdi corbyn it was going so well

[zoraster]

She was asked whether or not she would walk away from a Brexit deal if she didn't get exactly what she wanted or if she had to pay too much to get what she wanted. She said yes, and that "No deal was better than a bad deal."

Oh. So we're agreeing. That's dumb.

Although it's almost certainly a negotiating position.

[Randomnamechange]

Theresa May is setting herself up to paint the EU as the bad guys when they won't give us a "good-enough" deal. she could be doing a much better job with negotiations.

[zoraster]

Theresa May is setting herself up to paint the EU as the bad guys when they won't give us a "good-enough" deal. she could be doing a much better job with negotiations.

In what way?

Don't get me wrong. She sounds delusional, and that's not great in a negotiation partner. But a big part of negotiation is the perceived likeliness to walk away from the table. Or in the jargon of negotiation theory, BATNA: Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement.

It's just that those things have to be credible.

[Randomnamechange]

Theresa May is setting herself up to paint the EU as the bad guys when they won't give us a "good-enough" deal. she could be doing a much better job with negotiations.

In what way?

Don't get me wrong. She sounds delusional, and that's not great in a negotiation partner. But a big part of negotiation is the perceived likeliness to walk away from the table. Or in the jargon of negotiation theory, BATNA: Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement.

It's just that those things have to be credible.

that wasn't really to do with that point. her general positions are needlessly confrontational and don't seem to be geared towards getting a good deal as appeasing the pro-brexit voters. this presents a possible reason for that statement, although i agree that she probs needed to say that regardless.

[zoraster]

Yeah the basic problem is brexit is a horrible negotiation position for the UK, no matter what your priorities are. It's easy to think "oh, we're big trading partners with the EU so of course they want our trade" but the existential threat of the UK's leaving as well as the political will at home to make sure the UK comes out worse than it went in is pretty much overwhelming. Whether it's Corbyn or May, the room for difference in result is limited. Corbyn may allow more ground on immigration, which can be helpful to UK citizens in the EU and perhaps open up certain other options, but for the most part it'll be coming to terms with the weak position the UK has found itself in.

[Randomnamechange]

Yeah the basic problem is brexit is a horrible negotiation position for the UK, no matter what your priorities are.

the thing is from her negotiating tactics May doesn't seem to think this. Whereas Corbyn knows they need to give the EU a reason to work with us.

[zoraster]

Yeah, it's hard to know whether that's an act or not. But ultimately it'll be enforced on her.

In any event, I just have a hard time believing that people will view EU negotiations as the salient, deciding point between May and Corbyn. There are bigger differences. If Labour had made a case for staying in the EU, then it'd be a totally different thing, but there are more important differences between the two.

[Randomnamechange]

i totally agree.

[Randomnamechange]

i think if we were closer to article 50 being triggered and EU were willing to negotiate now it would, but rn we don't know enough for it to majorly affect the vote.

[Max]

We do. We know that Theresa May offers strong and stable leadership. #theresabae

[Randomnamechange]

(contains a lot of swearing)
(sorry if its already been posted)

[Postie]

Oh this thread is a thing. I'd been wondering who to vote for but I just found out I'm not actually eligible to vote in general elections.
We're as screwed as ever regardless who wins though right weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Max]

Debates??? Debates!