Night and Day Mafia (Game Over)

[Aronis]

Pagetop!

[Bulbazak]

You can do this literally quote by quote since there is only 4

please describe how you got a strong town read from this slot :3

The townread is from his predecessor: Zeus. Zeus was asking questions and helping to solve the game. I didn't get a buddying vibe from him, and he was very sincere in his posting. That was a very strong townread for me. Snarky is just acting like Snarky right now. I assume that there's a reason for his actions, and that he'll tell us eventually. At most, questioning was needed, and TB already did so.

Okay first off, I don't exactly get your perspective here? What did any of the Hunger Games have to do with this?

You threaten to scumread me and expect that I'd back down. Given that you got to know me as a player during Hunger Games, I only have to wonder if you came away with a false impression if you thought that'd somehow work on me and not tick me off as any alignment. Although, that might have been the point.

If anything related, I'd refer back to how I hated arguing with you, but I want your take on me directly challenging you and willfully picking a fight.

Instigating a confrontation doesn't imply towniness. In fact, it's a really good way to hide, and I used to do it a lot as scum.

and like, you didn't engage with any of the reasoning, and just gave it your own. To this very moment you use your own interpretation of the Aronis vote when I clearly stated it was to be used a sorting tool which I very clearly described in the post below

Except if you read my post, I did engage with that reasoning. I just didn't quote it. And RVS can be used as evidence, since it's not always random. And given the pre-game section, it was pretty obvious that early votes were going to fly to Aronis.

That's literally all you say on that topic, it's nothingness. So a question I want answered, is why do you have literally no expression of a thought dealing with reasoning, yet your push on me is that I'm pushing weak reasoning on players. I HAVE reasoning, while your pushing me on stuff that you've shown no real support for besides making a statement.

My reads come from my interactions with other players, especially early on. If a read seems kinda sudden to you, you can always ask how I came to that conclusion, and most of the times I will even tell you.

But that's besides the point, because we both know that you don't need to know alignments to know when a wagon or a push is off. And I don't need to freaking know their alignments to point out a pattern of voting that does not seem right.

This will be a great learning moment for me, possibly. I've never seen this theory of seeing a push as bad on D1. Just learn me up on this because I don't agree with it, but I don't want to argue with something that I don't understand.

Check out Hilariously Unbalanced 2 for an example of me attacking and pushing against a bad wagon. In that case, it was based on the composition. In this case, I didn't see the initial backlash on Snarky that'd I'd expect. That tells me that scum are already content with the current state of the wagons. That was the ultimate tipping point of my getting off CE.

It's called scumhunting. You see something that looks off and push at it.

So, you have admitted that the snarky thing was weird, meaning it looked off, and I pushed it. That's called scum hunting. So what did I actually do wrong?

There was no questioning. It was a vote attacking a post that looked off. That's not really pushing. Pushing requires more effort.

*coughs* V/LA at a summer camp *coughs* Besides the point, once I got home, and I started pushing TB, I think we can agree that the level of activity in me pushing a slot increased exponentially? Yay, or nay; if nay, give a reason to say?

Point. I'm kinda on vacation now as well, and I've probably been posting more than I should. I feel like I could be doing more, though, and that I'm partially responsible for things dying down.

One question

what is stopping you from voting me?

I'm conflicted. I'm torn between that earlier read and wanting you to be town and all the paranoia that the Snarky event caused. It seems so wrong that scum wouldn't jump on that, and TB is expected there, as he'd definitely vote an unexplained townread on himself. But otherwise... And I don't know whether this is a well reasoned and proper push or if I'm losing it. I feel like I'm losing my solid footing in this game, and that's casting doubt on several of my reads, because I'm not convinced there may be some undue paranoia there.

Okay but what do you think about Gin doing it? And what's your stance on her?

I'm not sure. I'm really not.

Also this is a lot of words and I'm not understanding what you're saying

That's okay. I think I started rambling there. It was mostly me struggling with my Gin read and their actions recently.

aronis can you read my titus case?

can anyone else acknowledge that they intend to read it besides Kelvin?

I read it, and it's mostly in line with my read.

if there's anytime to try to catch Titus-scum, now is the time to do so.

Elaborate?

Titus is one of those class of players that grows stronger as the game goes on, regardless of alignment (I'm one, too.), so if she's scum, she's just going to be more difficult to lynch later on.

Math, someone, talk to me. I just don't know anymore. I'm going to take this day and think. I'll put my vote down again tomorrow.

Gin doesn't do the cheap hostility and discrediting with zero argumentation thing as town. He has no depth as scum and he has no depth here. He's not interested in talking to anyone and he doesn't even seem to have any reads. It's just scum.

Maybe.

Also, can Math just stop it with the role thing. It's getting annoying/distracting.

I have other things I need to do, so I'll pick this up at page 55 later.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

[QuantumRadius]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

Please tell me what "scummy" means to you.

[QuantumRadius]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

Please tell me what "scummy" means to you.

suspiciously nontown or anti-town.

[Titus]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

Please tell me what "scummy" means to you.

suspiciously nontown or anti-town.

Which means what? Not spamming the thread while waiting on people to catch up that Aronis and Rauth are scum. Ok.

[QuantumRadius]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

Please tell me what "scummy" means to you.

suspiciously nontown or anti-town.

Which means what? Not spamming the thread while waiting on people to catch up that Aronis and Rauth are scum. Ok.

the aronis went up quickly, and it's unlikely scum would bus that hard that early; i highly doubt they're scum. and rauth is v/la and is unavailable to defend.
i am not comfortable with either of those lynches as of now. you, on the other hand, are pushing them as ml bait continuously. it looks like you have an agenda for yourself with the closed scumteam, and you really have no excuses for the rest of my wall. i want to see responses on my commentary from you; something isn't in sync here.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

Please tell me what "scummy" means to you.

suspiciously nontown or anti-town.

What separates suspiciously non-town from regular non-town? Likewise, what separates suspiciously anti-town from regular anti-town?

-Kelvin

[Aelita]

bb

[QuantumRadius]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

Please tell me what "scummy" means to you.

suspiciously nontown or anti-town.

What separates suspiciously non-town from regular non-town? Likewise, what separates suspiciously anti-town from regular anti-town?

-Kelvin

consistency.
i know from experience that as town, you might sometimes say things in passing that are scummy in isolation.

however, when I can consistently trace that scummy nature, eg having enough material to pvpa wall you, that piques suspicion from me.

[dramonic]

huh
We clearly have VERY different experiences

[Titus]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

Please tell me what "scummy" means to you.

suspiciously nontown or anti-town.

What separates suspiciously non-town from regular non-town? Likewise, what separates suspiciously anti-town from regular anti-town?

-Kelvin

consistency.
i know from experience that as town, you might sometimes say things in passing that are scummy in isolation.

however, when I can consistently trace that scummy nature, eg having enough material to pvpa wall you, that piques suspicion from me.

So basically someone who can spam nonsense about it.

Is that what this site has become, spam nonsense?

[texcat]

Is that what this site has become, spam nonsense?

Evidently.
VOTE: Aelita

Spoiler: The entire ISO

Hello.

Paddy is a third party. Paddy's first target will be the doctor. So will the doctor kindly out themselves so Paddy can kill them?

- Paddy

Garrisons.

VOTE: Aronis

10 pages in. Only strong read is TB town.

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

Lol! I have contributed nothing to the game so far (that will change today) I should not be a town read

This is A. Scum or B. Rlly stupid
Take your pick

Of course you'd say that so deter people from lynching you so it means jack squat.

The love of my life

Love you Paddy. Stay adorable.

bb

[SnarkySnowman]

getting slowly closer. of course you all post another 10 pages as I do that :S

[QuantumRadius]

Titus is doing things that are objectively scummy.

I'm not sure how you are defining "objectively" or "scummy," but I'm thinking you are using the former incorrectly, and possibly the latter too.

-Kelvin

yeah I think the word I was looking for was "fundamentally"
but I definitely meant the scummy part

Please tell me what "scummy" means to you.

suspiciously nontown or anti-town.

What separates suspiciously non-town from regular non-town? Likewise, what separates suspiciously anti-town from regular anti-town?

-Kelvin

consistency.
i know from experience that as town, you might sometimes say things in passing that are scummy in isolation.

however, when I can consistently trace that scummy nature, eg having enough material to pvpa wall you, that piques suspicion from me.

So basically someone who can spam nonsense about it.

Is that what this site has become, spam nonsense?

i literally do not understand what you are saying to me

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Well, I'm gonna spend this afternoon playing catchup prepare for many posts. In case I forget to sign any of them, they are all from me, Kelvin, the best one of the three (shameless Futurama reference). I'm gonna do things in order from where I left off after I keep my promise to Quantum.

Spoiler: My Thoughts on the Titus Case

ok, who's ready for this

Whatever, let's do this shit.

titus begins pregame and memephase, but tires quickly, even becoming agitated
after placing his rvs on rauthedir in 151, she immediately tires of rvs and bails in 162
that move is somewhat confusing, and i dislike their cover up in 169 (it's rvs, all rvs wagons are devoid of reason that early, that should not make you bail from rvs)

I fail to see anything even remotely off with this. Some people don't like being told what to do (as Vedith was doing) or wagons that get too big, too fast. I don't know Titus's stance on early wagons, but I've seen her get irked when people start trying to push her around. And I can't remember where, but I know I've seen her just walk away before when someone starts annoying her.

started hunting scum as early as 109
immediately latches onto rauthedir, who seems inactive (182, 214)
i'm confused as to why the interest in a semi-active slot, especially moving forward with her other scumreads

It's called confirmation bias. Titus scumreads at the drop of a hat and will hold onto those reads for the majority of the game. Read her ISOs in Railgun and Girls ♥ Girls 1 and tell me I'm not right.

262
this post is just awful. there is no reason for town to object that highly to mention of a traitor, especially with a setup where traitor wouldn't fit well. also, the latch onto the single word seems opportunistic

Bad =/= Scum
Sure, it's pretty bad thinking, especially given the setup, but that doesn't mean she considered the setup at the time. People like to jump on stupid perceived slips, that's not even uncommon. And it's understandable how a person could think that only scum would have reason to be primed to think about the possibility of a Traitor role.

rauthedir push intensifies in 279
oddly seems to think there's a major difference between what fkb and ginngie were doing, and what rauth was doing
the only real counterpoint she has is rauth's inactivity, which is nai unless there's meta i'm unaware of

Is your implication to contradiction/hypocrisy is scummy? I've heard the argument that scum are actually less likely to be contradictory than town because they feel like they need to have their story straight. Most people are a bundle of contradictions. If you can even call this a contradiction.

285 begins interaction with ginngie
she immediately wants out, pushing away at every available opportunity
i don't feel like this can be svs, assuming mafia has daychat (which is nearly confirmable since the mafia have the factional switching action) i really don't think that would have resolved like it did
interestingly, she thinks that ginngie is in the way, but does not scumread her for obstructing her reads (292)
she states that "you should already know i'm town" in 294, which is just not true

At the risk of offending Titus after Girls ♥ Girls 1, as Tammy pointed out multiple times in that game, Titus can be a very arrogant player. I'm pretty sure I've seen lots of players, both town and scum, who make the ridiculously unfounded claim that people should "just know" that they are town. This cancerous "obvtown/obvscum" bullshit that is the of my existence, but it's NAI.

begins negative interactions with math in 300 via shadecast. this develops later

Is that shadecasting? Like, that seems like a statement about their personal history together. Unless you have some sort of knowledge of their personal history, I'm not sure how it's possible to make heads or tails of this satement.

302 is her scumteam.
imo the aronis wagon was too fast to be scum, i don't think that's a logical sr
math doesn't seem that scummy to me, but i am lacking meta there, and meta is the main case against him
rauth is inactive, not a good reason to scumread someone

I don't think I've ever played a town game with Titus where she didn't lock in a scumteam off of weak reads Day 1. Granted, I've only played two games with her as town where I read her early game.

the end of 322 is almost laughably bad.
"i'm scumreading you for getting off a wagon. for that, i'll vote the person you want to unwagon, instead of you"
there is no visible reasoning there

Isn't there? I don't agree with her reasoning, but she said pretty clearly what her reasoning here was, so this feels like a misrepresentation. She already had a scumread on Aronis prior to that post. Our unvote was suspicious to her and strengthened her conviction on her scumread, as well as making her suspicious of us.

326... what even is this
it's like a hybrid between shadecasting, discrediting and distancing

Is it still shadecasting when you scumread the person? Also, is discrediting your espoused scumreads a bad thing? And distancing from who? Are you implying that we're scum or that Aronis is?

327 is a good post.

What about it is good?

330 is a repeat of the first readset, with the addition of fkb.
all of my commentary for the other three still stands

What's your point?

i'm not really sure what the reasoning on the fkb sr is, might be 326

Or it could be 345. Or it could be 322, where she first expresses the scumread... Take your pick.

the reaction in 345 is bad. it's really desperate finger pointing

Desperate for...?

wise words in 350

Well, at least we agree on this.

353 contains a formal declaration of a mathblade scumread, but somehow takes that and transitions it to town!bulbazak

So she's not allowed to state her other reads or...?

374 isn't much better, now you sr math for a read interruption... while you were being interrupted by ginngie... idk something isn't in sync there
i need some math meta apparently

What? Like, that's not even what she said. 297 makes it clear why she called Math scum and Gin agreed (at the time, at least).

458 yes and no, they would probably first look for what a teammate was trying to do

Both of you feel so narrow-minded to me. Like there's one fucking static thing that scum would do in any given situation. Scum playstyles are just as varied and inconsistent as town play and people are far too confident in their ability to read either.

465 is heavy shade on bulbazak. tvs

Why is asking somebody a question "heavy shade"? Certainly, it's an accusatory question, but so?

468 false, you're not lining up at all. your explanations only made that worse

Did they only make it worse? Like, what about it didn't add up to you? Because it made sense to me.

473 what is that
why is that a thing

Hell if I know.

489, obviously dissatisfied with the pace of the aronis wagon, resorts to casting more shade on aronis

How is what she did there literally any different from what you're doing when responding to that post? You're both ascribing arbitrary intent to other people as a means of attacking them.

564 woah there. flips back to rauth wagon
idk what you have that vote there for if you're not working with anyone to get it lynched

I'll take it you've never read Titus Academy. She talks about working with people and trying to work towards consensus, rather than trying to force things yourself, among other things. Here it seems like she's making the statement that she's so confident in Rauth as scum, she's going to disregard her espoused standards of cooperation and force his lynch.

And even if that wasn't the case, how does that equate to her being scum?

564668 repeats the exact same scumteam. also shows unwillingness to vote anyone else

Quantum! What the fuck is your point? You keep harping on her having the same reads. Are you saying that's scummy? If so, why? Why isn't it indicative of confirmation bias? Why isn't this whole case on Titus not indicative of your own confirmation bias?

564my guess is that she's got 1 buddy in here

Because...? If so, who and why? You're just making unfounded claims.

564857 voices interest in a quick flip
i'm not sure if that's actually kosher on this site because days are so long, but with the inactives she mentioned in 854, ending the day before potential prods or replacements would not have been wise

The false dichotomy of 79 CE or Aronis was crap, but not inherently scum-motivated. And the day ending would have been no great tragedy. I've said it in other games and I'll say it here: Day 1 usually ends in a mislynch. While I'd obviously prefer it didn't, I wouldn't lose sleep if it did. Day 1 is a fucking farce anyway. If it ended early, nothing of significant value would be lost.

564my main question after this is why she's choosing to shadecast mathblade over pushing him. she has evidence on that wagon, apparently solid meta
why is she not doing anything about it, over the sporadically active rauthedir?

You mean other than because in recent posts, she's said she now thinks Math might be town? I mean, who can say, other than her? Why does anybody do any of the nonsense that they do in Mafia? Because human beings are complex, unpredictable, contradictory creatures.

564also, why the closed scumteam?

Because confirmation bias.

God, what a fucking ordeal that was. Don't expect any more walls out of me. If you respond to this, I'll probably do it in chunks or something. Part of the reason I was going to quit this fucking game was so that I wouldn't have to make multi-hour posts anymore.

P.S. inb4WhiteKnightAccusations
-Kelvin

[Kelvin Smith]

Spoiler: Texcat case before I go to bed.

Ego post!

I guess this is one way to sign your posts. ThinkBig, aren't you supposed to be a hydra?

VOTE: 79 CE

For claiming town and town slipping by not knowing the number of scum in the dark thread.

Rauth could still be scum bussing and expecting the wagon to die.
Not only did Aronis post in red (obviously on the mind due to seeing red on their role pm) but also called the other Scum read town and tried to say that my reads won't be worth reading just because I voiced my opinion on the opening post.

Easy game, easy money.

you decided I'm scum solely because I posted a quote using red text, anybody in their right minds would discard your reads in a heartbeat

So why don't you vote Vedith instead of Rauth? What is your case on Rauth?

The more people post "you should just

know

that I'm town" the more I dislike the playerslot.

This kind of rhetoric is silly. If you really expect people to have a confident town read of you less than thirteen pages into a game (if we remove mastina's posts, this thread is probably only at 10, moderator influencing game thread length, tyranny), you are you silly.

While I do believe that confident posting is good, the high level of "I'm right and you should just

get it

" is irritating and needs to stop. If you want to convince me of something, you're going to have to actually provide reasons rather than try to berate me into thinking you're right because the sky is blue, you had a banana for breakfast, and your dog didn't shit on the floor today. Your good mood or overwhelming magical self-confidence and competence is not a reason that I will accept.

I absolutely agree with this post, but hey, it's mafia; that's what people do.


I still think CE 79 is a good lynch, but Titus, I appreciate your 374 and can see your point, but I see town jump on what they see as an rvs wagon all the time for no reason at all and just because it's there.

Based on this VCA Rauthedir reads like Town newb, Aronis reads like lynchbait, Vedith always annoys me as Town, EddieFenix reads like a limp in vote after not providing more details like I asked. Titus and dramonic seem like scum partners.

Thinking Titus dramonic EddieFenix.

You can deduce all of that from a vote count???

The 79 CE wagon has stalled

That doesn't mean that they're not scum. In fact, some might say that it makes it

more

likely.

96 - This reads fake here. It looks like she is trying to be concerned here, but it really reads like she doesn't care at all.
165 - Shit vote. In the hood they asked why Aristophanes said he was town and made that "slip" and it's a question that doesn't really go anywhere and looks like a faked attempt to gamesolve. Not to mention scum aren't going to fake a townslip to the degree that Aristophanes did in the dark PT. They're gonna try to be a bit more sly about how they do it. If anything, I'd say 70 CE is town because of that.
204 - I don't buy that texcat is concerned about the question being asked here, not to mention the question here seems really manipulative.
383 - Okay. This is what buddying really is. I usually say that buddying isn't a scumtell, but that's because people think buddying is "warming up to someone to get them to townread you" and that's litterally what site BFFs do all of the time and that is not scummy at all. What buddying really is is hiding behind someone else's content. And that is exactly what is happening here. This makes Frosted Town and Texcat scum.
669 - Gaslighting MathBlade. This probably also makes MathBlade town.
926 - Trying to assume why BTD unvoted 70 CE here is scummy. They don't even attempt to hunt or sort the slot or even attempt to figure out why the slot did what it did.

tl;dr Texcat isn't really interested in scumhunting and developing reads, and their tunnel on 70 CE looks super fabricated. If I had a 1 bullet and I was in a room with Hitler, Stalin, and Texcat, I'd shoot Texcat. Too bad I don't have that 1 bullet and the gunstore is closed, so I guess I have to wait for that shit to open I guess. Going to sleep now.

I don't even know where to begin on the flaws in this. And I'm not about to make another wall deconstructing it, but the logic here is just so flawed.

-Kelvin

[Titus]

Meh Kelvin might be town.

I'm running into a problem where I think all the scums are in the dark PT. :/

[A2]

Titus who is scum?
Also Texcat is our lynch for the day.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

Apologies for the Hydra slip. Won't happen again.

-Kelvin

[Titus]

Titus who is scum?
Also Texcat is our lynch for the day.

Aronis and Rauth and maybe Bulba.

No. He isn't. I am not voting Texcat before those 3.

[A2]

Titus,
please don't let this turn into Spring Fever
Like, I can't see Texcat as town, if you think they're town help me out here.
Like Titus, you know I am willing to work with you, it's just things like what happened in Spring Fever and Railgun where you hardpush town just give me sads

Also, What do you think of the Bulb v Gin fight?
I'm still trying to make something out of that.

[Frosted Kelvin Bran]

This is a weird concern, but it concerns me that you're not pressing me at all, there are so many questions or sorting that can be done that's just tossed aside.

you're asking to be read
that self-consciousness pings me scummy

Can confirm Gin has done this as town before.

[Titus]

Titus,
please don't let this turn into Spring Fever
Like, I can't see Texcat as town, if you think they're town help me out here.
Like Titus, you know I am willing to work with you, it's just things like what happened in Spring Fever and Railgun where you hardpush town just give me sads

Also, What do you think of the Bulb v Gin fight?
I'm still trying to make something out of that.

Who are you?