Mini Normal 1917: :X Mafia (Game over!)

[Nero Cain]

I mean yea, you are going to be under a ton of heat once I flip town.

[SlingshotWaffles]

I mean yea, you are going to be under a ton of heat once I flip town.

And if that does happen, then it'll have just been me playing poorly, not scum.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Replacing out is null, replacing out under pressure is kinda scummy. I thought it was odd that MCM was town reading the replacement for replacing out.

All this "nitpicky" and "loaded" is just maniplutive word salad.

no - it's not. i literally explained what that meant in the sentence before it

your question is - "so you're townreading him for replacing out"... when the statement you're asking about is already in the question. by a "nitpick" i'm saying that it's a trifling detail that notsure replaced out. the real meat of the read as mcm says is in the

how

your question completely ignores that and asks something already answered. that's ignoring the meat of a read and undermining it, not trying to get an explanation.

means nothing.

lazily pushing on a tell is scummy because it gives you an excuse to not look into motivation

that

absolutely means something

Just look at 856,927. I'm still scumreading his slot. There wasn't support for his lynch. I could be right, I could be wrong. If I'm wrong then me just continuing to hollar that he's scum from the rooftops does nothing but distraction from lynching scum. Even if he was scum there were still two others so yeah. If you want to callit LAMIST fine but it was the pro-town thing to do also I unvote my scumreads like all the time so?

how does this make sense...........

the person who was getting wagonned at this time was n_m - your scumreads were gamma, waffles, pp, and backhand iirc. how would you asserting your opinion that waffles is scum here distract from scum getting lynched when you don't even think scum is getting wagonned? like you would have a point if gamma was the main wagon at the time and you voted gamma instead of unvoting, but you vote gamma like a day later.

the more salient point there too is why didnt you return

when

you pointed out things you found scummy in, say, 856, that weren't amished's tell.

How 'bout when I fucking vote him?

when you vote him you only mention his replace out

re-iso'd you again and this resurfaces though....... for you to call it nai

I didn't "need" too. I'm just saying it reinforced my own read.

this is like maybe the only retort you've said that makes sense but i really dont think your own gamma scumread was addressed that strongly in thread

Backhand had been snarking at the sidelines without engaging me for awhile. That's not townie. I ask ppl why they are scumreading me all the time. Why is that such a strange question to ask someone that was scum reading me/doing the leg work to try and get heat on me slot?

uhhh there's a lot more to that interaction than you just asking why someone's scumreading you, just the way you went about it feels off. plus backhand could have been trying to sort grendel with that line of questioning, i dont think your snipe really helps you figure that out

How is it misreppy when that's you know...what actully happened? Its me thinking outloud.

please tell me how, then, that thought was meant to piece together if theyre bussing or not

ummm...I've argued at least twice about not lynching NM. Like NM being a useless not entity and lurking through the game is a real possibilit I think and its in no way scuumy for me to keep that in the back of my mind. Why are you so bullish on NM slot being town?

first of all how am i bullish on nm's slot being town? i called vedith odd already and my townread of that slot has always been weak

but i dont understand the thought process where you say you scumread n_m but give reasoning that makes it seem like a non-committal and nonexistent read.

anyway, nero, what's your read on me? you obviously dislike my push but is it bad in a scummy way to you? why or why not

oh look, I'm everyone's top scumread now, besides maybe Hiraki and Cheet. Like that should be a huge neon sign that I'm a mislynch.

i dont think a scumteam with you tries to save you ever lmfao

anyway cheetory and hiraki are next, wanted to address my scumread first

[gigabyteTroubadour]

i) Lack of follow-ups to questions isn't a good scumtell and there are other reasons that could apply besides just asking questions for the sake of looking like you're asking questions. I would need examples where you feel like he doesn't have bite where you feel like townNero would otherwise.

ii) I feel like dropping reads is easier for town to do than scum? Do you have experience with the opposite? Because I feel like as scum, I generally just hold onto my reads because I'm scared that switching easily is something that I won't be able to do convincingly vs just doubling down on what reads I do have.

iii) Nero throws a lot of shade as town. I also think it makes sense for someone uninvested who isn't as overly concerned with how he appears to push angles that aren't thought through.

i) as a tell it's bad yeah but most static "tells" are kind of crap. the important thing is to look at the hows. anyway... for examples of what i mean in a condensed way

• 601 (mostly the second one - the answer to the question is in what he's quoting anyway and he's clearly missing the meat of the read)
  
• 1129 second example of a question he asks where the answer is in front of him and deconstructs the purpose of whoever he's asking's original thoughts
  
• 1197 i guess has "bite" but it's not the kind of bite you would see from someone gamesolving or who noticed something scummy. it's leading slingshot into saying something he clearly doesnt believe in

like all three of these questions have a leading premise (601 watering down mcm's read, 1129 adding his own reasoning to kraska's scumread when she already explained it as something else) and already have an answer in front of them. a question with "bite" would be something that throws scum off their trajectory if that makes sense, i guess. a question with an obvious answer or obviously misleads the person being questioned doesn't really do that, it's just an annoyance. and both of those qualities dont strike me as what i'd see from someone trying to solve the game since theyre not constructive.

ii) i think this is more of a personality tell - like i can tell you'd be the kind of scum more likely to tunnel because you'd be more self-conscious of how people perceive you in general (i'm kind of the same way). i'm sure nero has some degree of self-consciousness since we're all human but i dont get as strong of a vibe from him in that regard. like the way he backed off just looked awkward in of itself, where we would probably avoid doing that because of its repercussions while nero sees it as the right move to do as either alignment. it'd be scummy no matter who did it but nero decided to post it is my point though.

iii) it's not the shade that's scummy, it's how it's thrown. i still dont really understand how, say, the questions i pointed out above give any sort of insight to the game besides making slots (most of which are flipped town anyway) "look" worse. like i've seen nero be snarky and throw shade at his scumreads, but he was doing something with it. it just feels half-hearted here since he's not really pointing at scummy behavior but things that are "wrong".

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Question for you then - do you think the nature of this wagon being formed has scum on it or a bunch of VIs? Regardless of your personal opinions, there are some terrible votes here.

i feel like with how town has been playing there's kind of a subconscious need for some sort of leader figure to get everyone together

like... d1 ended in a deadline scramble. there was no sense of unity or leadership in town.

when i generally replace into a game as town i try to figure out what town needs me to do since i'm generally a flexible person who's good at understanding what people want. sometimes they want someone who's calm and willing to sheep town. sometimes they need a kick in the nuts and a good screaming to do something. sometimes they need someone nurturing who's going to point out what town is doing right and encourage everyone not to give up.

the second option was probably the best here since i had a read i was confident in and felt my slot was relatively townie anyway (and thus in a position to towntell).

the wagon as it is has 3 slots i basically know for a fact are town (me, kraska, and mcm). slingshot i had a theory on that's probably wrong but i dont think he's scum anyway, ccc strikes me as newbtown. so like... with that construction i'm not anticipating fantastic votes. the point is though that town is starting to find a center of focus in the nero wagon - maybe ccc is scum on the wagon, maybe waffles is, but there's now some unity. i think scum either are hanging back hoping that paranoia sets in from a "bus" (unlikely to actually work) or trying to figure out how to adjust to town cohesion. the latter can still be the case if nero is town or if ccc/waffles are scum, since voting nero is certainly a way to react to that.

does this make sense...? like i think it's just people finding a sheepable voice now

---

yeah, i'm totally picking up the same vibes from grendel but i think from his last few posts we're going to see a more transparent grendel which should make his trajectory a lot clearer and easier to read.

sorry, this interaction kind of wound up being outdated - i see what you mean though

---

I have no clue what you're trying to say here as much as that you think that it's easier for scum to not lie rather than to lie. I don't get how you could effectively use this as a way to find scum when it's also an effective way to find town.

I hate that my top SR is just gonna get a pass for "bad play" by multiple players and votes Nero. That's just fine.

this is another thing i can really just say "it's in the way it's done"

like... town wants to find scum - scum will want to simulate that, and one way to do that is to argue with people over details that ultimately arent relevant. i think that's what slingshot was seeing there and i can understand the thought process but i dont exactly agree with it being scummy in this instance.

like atm i want to secure a nero lynch before i sort most of the other slots because i think the gamestate will click once he flips scum and it'll be easier to sort people that way

[Hiraki]

does this make sense...? like i think it's just people finding a sheepable voice now

No and it's only because your voice isn't a vote. The only vote difference before you were in and after you were in was your own vote and CCC - someone who has the worst read progression ever and is getting passed as a noob when his join date was a year ago.

the wagon as it is has 3 slots i basically know for a fact are town (me, kraska, and mcm). slingshot i had a theory on that's probably wrong but i dont think he's scum anyway, ccc strikes me as newbtown. so like... with that construction i'm not anticipating fantastic votes. the point is though that town is starting to find a center of focus in the nero wagon - maybe ccc is scum on the wagon, maybe waffles is, but there's now some unity.

OK but what if they're already on there. This wagon has been stalled for days now. I'm not disagreeing with your first 3 reads (you, MCM, and Kraska) but I am defiant on those last two.

like... town wants to find scum - scum will want to simulate that, and one way to do that is to argue with people over details that ultimately arent relevant. i think that's what slingshot was seeing there and i can understand the thought process but i dont exactly agree with it being scummy in this instance.

Do you

honestly

think this is what Slingshot was actually thinking?

[Hiraki]

I will admit that Nero's responses are really subpar upon reading the argument (i'm weird, I read upwards a lot rather than chronologically - it serves no in-game purpose and actually causes headaches more than anything)

[gigabyteTroubadour]

ccc plays like a newb and does in all of his games - he's getting passed for one because he is.....

the wagon speed can mean anything imo, it could be stalling because scum dont want to bus or counterwagon, it could be because if they're on it.

The way he was insinsting that he was still "technically" correct and because of that I was scum seemed kinda eh. He did kind of the same thing with you but it was a bit different.

^ hiraki that's literally what he said here, so yes that's honestly what he's thinking

[CCC]

hmm

ok

then yeah

it's probably nero+grendel+comical third option

I can certainly see nero+grendel+vedith as a possibility.

Or nero+backhand+cheet. Or nero+waffles+vedith. There's loads of possible teams that include Nero (and comparatively few that don't).

[CCC]

Removing Mutton and Kraska my reads are something like this

Sling, NotPaul, Cheetory6,

Gigabyte, CCC,

Vedith, Backhand,

Hiraki, Nero Cain

Why's your Slingshot read so far in the green?

The rest I can understand, even if I don't always agree, but that one just seems wrong to me...

[CCC]

ugh ok my list is terrible

I think it looks quite sensible, myself.

[CCC]

today's lynch pool is {vedith, nero} for me
and slingshot but nobody else agrees

I'd be happy to vote Slingshot. His rolefishing attempt was just terrible.

I could see myself voting anywhere in {slingshot vedith nero}. Grendel's also a possibility still, but I'm no longer certain he's a good choice for today's lynch.

[CCC]

I'm trying here!
I'm reading parts and trying to determine motives.
To you I'm not doing anything maybe but my posts have purpose.

And you're in a slot that's made a speciality of silence. This is why I still think that seeing your flip will go a very long way towards solving the game.

[CCC]

but I’d apperiate a defense for why you think he is town/ a bad lynch aside from that.

OK - he is a player who's lynch is pushed on by scummy players for meta reasons when I'll bet a shitton that they have not read a snippet of his meta. I never said I TR'd Nero - I said it was a terrible wagon and lynch compared to Waffles and CCC.

I can provide a non-meta based reason to vote Nero as scum.

Take a look at the day one wagon on Not_Mafia. Aside from N_M's self-vote and a bunch of people who now have strong reasons to be considered Town, the votes on that wagon are Backhand, Cheetory, DeathRowKitty.

Now, take a look at the votes on the PenguinPower lynch at the end of the day. Backhand, Cheetory, DeathRowKitty are also on that wagon, along with a lot of very-probably-Townies and Nero Cain.

Now. Either Not_Mafia is Town or Not_Mafia is Mafia.

If Not_Mafia is Mafia: The people on his wagon are more probably Town than Scum. This causes Townleans for Backhand, Cheetory, DRK. There probably is scum on Penguin's wagon; this means that N_M being scum translates into a very strong probability of Nero being scum.

If Not_Mafia is Town: Almost certainly, one (perhaps two) of the people on N_M's wagon are scum. (That's between Backhand, Cheet, and DRK). Nero is still quite possibly scum; though the odds of Town Nero are a good deal higher in this probability branch.

Summed over both branches, Nero's probability of being scum ends up being higher than Not_Mafia's. (Though we get better information from the Not_Mafia slot).

[CCC]

NRTP seemed scummy D1 imo.
Though with night actions he seems a bit townie.

I still don't really trust him though.

And I guess I should explain the rolefishing. I don't trust him so I wanted to know his role.
Still bad, but yeah.

So... your explanation of why it looked like you were rolefishing is that you were, in actual fact, rolefishing?

VOTE: SlingshotWaffles

[NotTheRealPaul]

today's lynch pool is {vedith, nero} for me
and slingshot but nobody else agrees

I'd be happy to vote Slingshot. His rolefishing attempt was just terrible.

I could see myself voting anywhere in {slingshot vedith nero}. Grendel's also a possibility still, but I'm no longer certain he's a good choice for today's lynch.

This^

Not sure about vedith though I dont remember him doing anything except saying hi.

Nero's response was pretty trash IMO.

VOTE: nero

[CCC]

today's lynch pool is {vedith, nero} for me
and slingshot but nobody else agrees

I'd be happy to vote Slingshot. His rolefishing attempt was just terrible.

I could see myself voting anywhere in {slingshot vedith nero}. Grendel's also a possibility still, but I'm no longer certain he's a good choice for today's lynch.

This^

Not sure about vedith though I dont remember him doing anything except saying hi.

Nero's response was pretty trash IMO.

VOTE: nero

If the Nero lynch is actually going to go through I can put my vote back there.

VOTE: Nero Cain

I'm pretty sure that makes L-1

[implosion]

Vote Count 2.9

Nero Cain (6): kraska77, SlingshotWaffles, MuttonChopMagic, gigabyteTroubadour, NotTheRealPaul, CCC
SlingshotWaffles (2): Hiraki, Nero Cain
gigabyteTroubadour (2): Cheetory6, Grendel
Vedith (1): Backhand

Not Voting (1): Vedith


With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is at 11:30 PM PST on Friday, June 30, in (expired on 2017-07-01 02:30:00).

[gigabyteTroubadour]

still townreading the wagon comp here

[Cheetory6]

vote: Vedith

Is probably where my head is at.
If we do lynch Nero, he flips town and I die tonight, Vedith doesn't make it to endgame please and thanks.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

yeah probably, that's who i want tomorrow regardless of flip

[Vedith]

I don't want to die tomorrow

[gigabyteTroubadour]

then do something town

who is scum? why?

what do you think of nero?

[Vedith]

Look, I'm going to be real for you here, Gigga. Can I do that?

So I've been given a major company project since Monday and I'm spending over 12 hours a day working on it. Normally I do fuck all at work, and therefore catch up happens a lot at work.

I'm expecting to be finished with it today (at least this stage of it). I then promise to read the game and decide who is scum tonight /tomorrow at latest.

Give me that time before lynching, and we gucci.

We gucci?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

yeah we gucci - completely understand

just so far though i dont have a great impression of your engagement but if you do more and i townread then cool

lmao i barely can play when im at work i dont get how yall do it

im mostly here during bathroom breaks or days off lol