Mini 1918: Paint Mafia Threequel! Game Over!

[Havo]

With Varsoon I'm bothered by this:

Titus, do you think a player like Varsoon would risk such a ballsy strat and not NK? I'm basing the remaining scum on that play.

If I'm scum, I'll do anything to secure a win. If an NK was the best way to get us to victory, I'd gamble on it. I guess I tend to play high-risk, high-reward as scum a lot?
Regardless, it seems pretty clear that Aptil claimed the way they did to try to bait out PR claims, imo. Which leads me to believe that scum think there might be more town power than what we've already seen.

Someone explain to me how the paint mechanic works on this game please.

During the first half of the day phase, we only vote to see a player's current color.
Town players generally begin the game colored BLUE.
Mafia players generally begin the game colored RED.
From what we've seen, players can end up colored PURPLE.

Given the flips from town so far, I think that whatever scum remains is either a PR or scum have factional abilities beyond just painting a single person purple at night. No way that town gets both a jailkeeper and, essentially, a second cop if scum is all just goons.

I think we should flip Varsoon for color just based on the contention in current reads there.

Thoughts?

I didn't think there was any contention of reads on my slot other than bomber's paranoia.
Max brought it up because he thinks I'm unlikely to be painted, though I find that the most likely painted players are between me, Aristo, and Havo.

It's like Varsoon is hinting at scum being more powerful, like maybe they can paint more than one person at night, which to me looks like he might be setting up the play as to why he might flip a different color.

As I disagree with him being likely to have been painted last night, I think Myself, then Bomber and maybe Ari for his attempt to flip the wagon on Aptil.

But I don't think Varsoon would have really been a paint candidate. But that's open for debate.

[Havo]

What bothers me about Ari is his aloof play, which has been kind of played off as his meta.

Then of course he took a shot at flipping the Aptil paint wagon.

[Havo]

What bothers me about Bomber is :

I'm not liking Bomber for:

Posts 148/275/278/316/*530*/534/551/**708**/853/974

There's quite a few posts there that don't sit well with me.

[Varsoon]

Oh--I'm saying to consider game balance.
Town has a Jailer. Town has a soft-cop that informs where to shoot with their public day cop. Town has a public day cop.
What abilities have we seen scum with? Goons and the ability to make people purple.
I would say that we account for more and we don't rule bussing out as a strategy, given scum has given up two goons and no PRs.
In every previous game, scum had PRs. I either see Cheetory doing that again or giving scum a lot of factional power that wasn't in the previous games.
That's why making assumptions based around the info we had on deck re:fro99er wasn't going to hard-clear anyone, because we don't know the full mechanics at play.

[Bomberman]

I'm still interested in a mass-claim regardless of who is being voted today.

[Havo]

Oh--I'm saying to consider game balance.
Town has a Jailer. Town has a soft-cop that informs where to shoot with their public day cop. Town has a public day cop.
What abilities have we seen scum with? Goons and the ability to make people purple.
I would say that we account for more and we don't rule bussing out as a strategy, given scum has given up two goons and no PRs.
In every previous game, scum had PRs. I either see Cheetory doing that again or giving scum a lot of factional power that wasn't in the previous games.
That's why making assumptions based around the info we had on deck re:fro99er wasn't going to hard-clear anyone, because we don't know the full mechanics at play.

That's a valid point, but it's also an obvious one IMO.

We're not gonna know the complete mechanics til it's over, making assumptions have to be done with some common sense.

[Titus]

Is there anything that precludes scum from being blue?

[Havo]

I'm still interested in a mass-claim regardless of who is being voted today.

I'm not opposed to a mass claim.

[Havo]

Is there anything that precludes scum from being blue?

We're not 100% sure, we don't believe so based on this:

Just went back to make sure--in the first game, the scum team could paint a player blue once per game and had infinite uses of painting a player red, green, orange, yellow, black, white and purple. There was also a mechanic revolving around 'freshly' painted players where several roles could figure out if a player had just had their color changed.

Cheetory didn't like the 'bastard' elements of painting a player red/blue and also didn't like how some role interactions could allow town a very easy victory (one player could check what the total color of players were of each color at night and another could remove one player from that check, essentially letting town, if coordinated, color-check players each night as well as each day).

The second game was scaled down to a 13 player setup and the 'wet paint' mechanic was removed. Town roles were made more direct/straightforward, too and scum power was taken down a whole lot. In that game, the mafia could only paint players as Black, white, red, orange, green, yellow or purple.


So, why bring all this up?

I was thinking about my first post here and started to recall that scum could paint players a lot of different colors, then realized that in the first game they could even paint players red and blue. In the design topic for the game, I recall telling Cheetory that I thought Mafia might, outside of gambits, only paint players blue/red because that's most effective at throwing a wrench into town strategies based on public mechanics.

While it's clear that between game 1 and 2, Cheetory removed painting players blue, the ability to paint them red stayed in.

That said, I would still trust that Red = Scum unless we have any provable role-claims that can show us otherwise.

And for D1, Red definitely equals scum and Blue definitely equals town.

Just flip the script here from what I said previously:

BLUE players are very, very likely CONFIRMED TOWN unless someone can prove that players can change others blue.
RED players are likely to be CONFIRMED SCUM in the EARLY GAME but we can't rely on that as much moving forward.
Again, this is somewhat speculative, as Cheetory could've changed some core things between the second game and this one, but
I do NOT see Cheetory giving Mafia the ability to paint players blue, since he really didn't like how much that could skew things in scum's favor in the first game and was essentially 'bastard'.

The only thing we have seen so far was JJH flipping Purple. He started out as Blue.

[Varsoon]

Is there anything that precludes scum from being blue?

Literally where the mod said he would never do that in future games in this series.
But ayyy, if you don't want to trust word of mod, then we can't trust the system the game is built on, at which point color flipping becomes a pointless endeavor.
Don't just take my word for it. S'not like I helped design the first game and read through the entire second in prep for this one.

[Titus]

Ok Varsoon is prolly town. Havo Bomberman more likely.

[Bomberman]

Based on Havo's play I don't know I'm really sold on Havo being the (individual) last scum, and that might seems like a slight against his intelligence but I feel it is a bit warranted. Scum were anticipating Aptil being revealed and they wanted to use him being painted purple as a possibility of him being town, wihch I don't really know if those calculations could be made with Havo/Aptil alone. Is there a possibility of 4-man scumteam?

[Varsoon]

But, ay, here's more:

In the first game, scum could paint players blue. This is what Cheetory had to say 'bout that:

Subject: Paint Mafia! - Game Over!

Brief modthoughts:
I had a nightmare running this game.
The mechanics ended up being even more complicated than I had already thought.
Scum was kind of given the shaft in some ways. Especially the unintended ways that Spiff/Elbirn's role could interact. I didn't see that coming at all.
The mechanic being borderline bastard was kind of giving town the shaft in other ways which was upsetting.

Which I feel somewhat responsible for because I okay'd it and didn't catch how it'd be a problem and gave players far more merit than I should'a:

Subject: Paint Mafia Setup

I agree with that.
Given there's no protection, the paint mechanic does feel scum-sided (as any publicly confirmed 'dry blue' player can be killed at night or left alive if not a threat) especially due to false positives at late game.
I find it appealing and worth doing regardless, because it punishes players for relying entirely on mechanical effects, and unlike godfather, the players are at fault for assuming blue=town in all scenarios.

I think the false positives also aren't too horrible, as the Palette knows for a fact paint colors can change (otherwise it is a useless role) and Sensor knows dry/wet paint is important.

But hey, it's not like anyone brought this up in the first page of this game for any reason...

Just went back to make sure--in the first game, the scum team could paint a player blue once per game and had infinite uses of painting a player red, green, orange, yellow, black, white and purple. There was also a mechanic revolving around 'freshly' painted players where several roles could figure out if a player had just had their color changed.

Cheetory didn't like the 'bastard' elements of painting a player red/blue and also didn't like how some role interactions could allow town a very easy victory (one player could check what the total color of players were of each color at night and another could remove one player from that check, essentially letting town, if coordinated, color-check players each night as well as each day).

The second game was scaled down to a 13 player setup and the 'wet paint' mechanic was removed. Town roles were made more direct/straightforward, too and scum power was taken down a whole lot. In that game, the mafia could only paint players as Black, white, red, orange, green, yellow or purple.


So, why bring all this up?

I was thinking about my first post here and started to recall that scum could paint players a lot of different colors, then realized that in the first game they could even paint players red and blue. In the design topic for the game, I recall telling Cheetory that I thought Mafia might, outside of gambits, only paint players blue/red because that's most effective at throwing a wrench into town strategies based on public mechanics.

While it's clear that between game 1 and 2, Cheetory removed painting players blue, the ability to paint them red stayed in.

That said, I would still trust that Red = Scum unless we have any provable role-claims that can show us otherwise.

And for D1, Red definitely equals scum and Blue definitely equals town.

Just flip the script here from what I said previously:

BLUE players are very, very likely CONFIRMED TOWN unless someone can prove that players can change others blue.
RED players are likely to be CONFIRMED SCUM in the EARLY GAME but we can't rely on that as much moving forward.
Again, this is somewhat speculative, as Cheetory could've changed some core things between the second game and this one, but
I do NOT see Cheetory giving Mafia the ability to paint players blue, since he really didn't like how much that could skew things in scum's favor in the first game and was essentially 'bastard'.

P-EDIT: ><
I'm just gonna leave this here because I was so going off on you
If Blue is scum, I'm going to have serious words with the mod in post

[Bomberman]

Seems to me Cheetory rectified his mistake by allowing scum to paint their own as a means of spreading WIFOM, and right now it looks like the only color is purple.

[Varsoon]

Pretty sure scum could paint their own in earlier Paint setups.

[Varsoon]

And, yes, at this point, I would be very surprised if anyone flipped red on the color flip.

[Varsoon]

I actually need to go back and see who really pushed for Aptil's color to be revealed, especially the day they got lynched.
Because they were definitely purple by then, at least.

[Bomberman]

Is a 4-man a possibility in your eyes Varsoon? Talk to me about my theory and who you're looking at. Every 13-man I've played usually is 3 scum (1 possible indy) and the rest town.

[Titus]

VOTE: Havo

[Varsoon]

Wait, what's your theory?
I don't see this being a 4-man team unless scum is just 4 goons with no abilities besides painting people purple. Even then, I think we'll know when we lynch another scum and the game doesn't end.
If you think we should proceed with caution and assume Lylo is when we're at a 2-scum situation, I think that's fine, too.

[Havo]

Based on Havo's play I don't know I'm really sold on Havo being the (individual) last scum, and that might seems like a slight against his intelligence but I feel it is a bit warranted. Scum were anticipating Aptil being revealed and they wanted to use him being painted purple as a possibility of him being town, wihch I don't really know if those calculations could be made with Havo/Aptil alone. Is there a possibility of 4-man scumteam?

LMAO! R u serious dude?

Nothing reveals character like when someone goes out of their way to be a dick.

But you do you man.

[Bomberman]

You've been someone who plays more emotionally and focuses on the tone of things instead of someone who seems like they're meticulous and calculating. This is true even based on the response you gave to me, which you focused on the fact I questioned your intelligence on a certain play.

[Bomberman]

I think the idea of you hamming it up more than usual is relevant however, which was a point I made against you earlier. Instead of focusing on the logical aspect of my arguments, you zeroed in on the fact I didn't like your play, and had a fit and stated how you're town and the only one giving effort. This doesn't impress me because I don't feel it's warranted, and even right now I question your authenticity if the highest priority you had was to call me a dick on a comment that was not related to your personal character.

[Havo]

You've been someone who plays more emotionally and focuses on the tone of things instead of someone who seems like they're meticulous and calculating. This is true even based on the response you gave to me, which you focused on the fact I questioned your intelligence on a certain play.

And you could have said what you said without being a dick about it. But you chose not too.

Like I said, you do you man.

[Aristophanes]

Oh god, I still have the Paint Sequel in my "Ongiong games" section of my wiki
I need to update that asap!

I haven't Iso'd the people I need to do yet. That'll be a tomorrow at work thing.