Open 688: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[NJAC]

Don't replace me. I'm still reading. On weekends I can't contribute much.

WRT some recent posts I prefer to lynch Navy than AS. This could change when I finish reading, but meanwhile you have my support on that lynch, Vedith:

VOTE: Navy

[Kelvin Smith]

Why would they check Titus?
Cop should check Math.

Now if I act tonight, I am healing a cop.

Cops should check Navy.

This will sort most of the concerns in the n1 docs.

Fuck that. Cops should check you or Math, depending on if we lynch Math.

Why would a cop repeat Math's check? This kinda sounds like you know Math is scum and you're trying a hard bus that's failing. :/

What part of "depending om if we lynch Math" was unclear? Like, I'm not sure if you guys are willfully misinterpreting me or if I need to be 100% explicit in every word that I say.

[Kelvin Smith]

Can you guys please explain both the Navy and Agent Sparkles wagons and why you think either one is:

1. A good idea?
2. A better idea than Math?

[Titus]

Can you guys please explain both the Navy and Agent Sparkles wagons and why you think either one is:

1. A good idea?
2. A better idea than Math?

AS heal makes little sense.
Math is leashed and scum's problem.

[Kelvin Smith]

Can you guys please explain both the Navy and Agent Sparkles wagons and why you think either one is:

1. A good idea?
2. A better idea than Math?

AS heal makes little sense.
Math is leashed and scum's problem.

1. Why? And so?

2. How is Math leashed or scum's problem? Town Math is godsend for them. So lynchable that it hurts. And as long as Math is alive, there will always be doubt on you. If Math is town, scum don't need to ever deal with either of you or with me or anyone else who suspects that either or both of you are scum. You saying that Math is somehow magically a scum problem is why I have such a hard time trusting you, because it's a statement that doesn't make any sense to me from a town perspective, unless you're just so out of touch right now that you're convinced everyone thinks both of you are locktown or something.

[Titus]

@Kelvin,

You're arguing you haven't read d1. Go ahead and look at that n1 iso and tell me if anyone makes sense as an n1 kill. Or a VCA. Anything. Otherwise, I'll pass here.

I don't care about "doubt" being on me. If Math or I hit day before lylo, we can deal with it then. Math can never vote me and a cop check on Math can clear both of us (in any practical sense, mathmatically it could be cop, Math, me but that's a bit ridic as that falls like house of cards tomorrow).

It's just not a today thing. It never is.

[Kelvin Smith]

@Kelvin,

You're arguing you haven't read d1. Go ahead and look at that n1 iso and tell me if anyone makes sense as an n1 kill. Or a VCA. Anything. Otherwise, I'll pass here.

I'm not quite clear what you're asking me to do. You want me to ISO what and why? Are you asking me who makes sense as the N1 kill? Because that seems inherently loaded. If I'm scum, I never go for the obvious kill, because I have no idea if there will be a protective role on that kill. I go for somebody I'm pretty sure isn't widely scumread, is moderately townread, and/or I suspect is a PR, that way I won't likely be blocked. It's the best move strategically, in my opinion.

Likewise, as a town protective role or when trying to direct a protective role, I usually endorse not necessarily picking the most town player. Often, I'll advise leaving it to a coin flip or other RNG and have the choice be between the top townread and some other pool of players (or possibly all players). The town player should have about a 50% chance of being protected, while the other players have equal lesser chances of being protected. It is meant to force cautious scum to make suboptimal plays, while punishing greedy scum for going for the optimal target. So I really don't care if Navy's or Agent Sparkles's (or anybody else's) Doc protect makes sense to anybody, because there are perfectly reasonable town reasons for not picking a "good" target. And on top of that, there are players who just make picks at a whim or based on their own shitty reads. That's their choice and not scum-indicative.

To that point, why the fuck is a bad protect choice scummy? Fucking scum know who the kill target was going to be. They can literally just lie and say that they picked the next-most townread person. What the hell do scum have to gain from telling off-the-wall lies about their shitty protection choices? If anything, that should be far more town-indicative than scum-indicative to you people. And I now want to know how many people made that argument, because they should all either be considered suspicious or their critical decision-making should be seriously called into question as we move forward and consider whose plans make the most sense.

I don't care about "doubt" being on me. If Math or I hit day before lylo, we can deal with it then.

This is the day before MyLo. It's effectively the same thing. Therefore, let's deal with it now.

Math can never vote me and a cop check on Math can clear both of us (in any practical sense, mathmatically it could be cop, Math, me but that's a bit ridic as that falls like house of cards tomorrow).

It's just not a today thing. It never is.

We have no guarantee of a Cop tonight, we have no guarantee that any active Cop will survive the Night, and we have no guarantee that if somebody claims a result on Math tomorrow, they aren't scum too. And I'm just about ready to say that's a likely course of events at this point, because it's a fucking strong scum play in MyLo with you and Math knocking about to steer people away from wagons that actually have some merit. And tomorrow we won't have the luxury of making a test lynch on a claimed Cop, because if we mislynch here and don't protect tonight, it's MyLo. So it's gotta be a 4 reelz lynch.

@Everybody: If you seriously don't see what's wrong with this situation right now, I strongly believe that the town is going to lose. MathBlade's lynch is our last, best hope of turning this game into a winning situation. I firmly believe that (which probably means that conformation bias is getting to me too), but it's just so naked that if I'm wrong, I need others to point out why. I'm having a hard time figuring a town motivation for what's going on with Titus and Math right now.

[Titus]

I'll deal with this in the morning. But please for the love of God do something other than tunnel on Math. It makes me want to never ever lynch them.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'll deal with this in the morning. But please for the love of God do something other than tunnel on Math. It makes me want to never ever lynch them.

The problem is, your staunch defense of Math makes me feel like I'm on the right track, because it feels like you are dead set on shutting down any conversation on a Math lynch for what appears to me to be no good reason. Which also increases my feelings that you are scum. And which is why, if you are town, I need you to understand this is why I fucking hate reads and don't trust my own or anyone else's. Hell, even if I'm right and you are both scum, that doesn't fucking help me. For all I know, I'm right for the wrong reasons, meaning that my ability to form reads is still ultimately valueless and destructive.

[MathBlade]

Blatant dodging and too many words to read.

[Kelvin Smith]

Blatant dodging and too many words to read.

I'd appreciate if you weren't just purposefully vague.

[MathBlade]

Blatant dodging and too many words to read.

I'd appreciate if you weren't just purposefully vague.

If I had time to read everything I would be more clear. You can appreciate what you want but...I am walking or the door now.

[Titus]

I'll deal with this in the morning. But please for the love of God do something other than tunnel on Math. It makes me want to never ever lynch them.

The problem is, your staunch defense of Math makes me feel like I'm on the right track, because it feels like you are dead set on shutting down any conversation on a Math lynch for what appears to me to be no good reason. Which also increases my feelings that you are scum. And which is why, if you are town, I need you to understand this is why I fucking hate reads and don't trust my own or anyone else's. Hell, even if I'm right and you are both scum, that doesn't fucking help me. For all I know, I'm right for the wrong reasons, meaning that my ability to form reads is still ultimately valueless and destructive.

If you had actually said something based on their play, I'd be amenable to talking with you. You aren't. You're crowing strategy lynch when I'm the one slot in the game that learns nothing from your "strategy" lynch. You aren't having a read. Math also has pissed several people off which makes it an easy scum lynch. I don't expect you to be right, but I do expect a conversation.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'll deal with this in the morning. But please for the love of God do something other than tunnel on Math. It makes me want to never ever lynch them.

The problem is, your staunch defense of Math makes me feel like I'm on the right track, because it feels like you are dead set on shutting down any conversation on a Math lynch for what appears to me to be no good reason. Which also increases my feelings that you are scum. And which is why, if you are town, I need you to understand this is why I fucking hate reads and don't trust my own or anyone else's. Hell, even if I'm right and you are both scum, that doesn't fucking help me. For all I know, I'm right for the wrong reasons, meaning that my ability to form reads is still ultimately valueless and destructive.

If you had actually said something based on their play, I'd be amenable to talking with you. You aren't. You're crowing strategy lynch when I'm the one slot in the game that learns nothing from your "strategy" lynch. You aren't having a read. Math also has pissed several people off which makes it an easy scum lynch. I don't expect you to be right, but I do expect a conversation.

What are you talking about? I already said so many times that I want to lynch MathBlade based on their play. I said that my starting point was strategy and that I've also come to believe that Math is scum. Do you want me to quote all of the times that I've said that or attacked Math's play?

[Almost50]

VC 3.07

Agent Sparkles

(3): Titus, Vedith, NotTheRealPaul,

Mathblade

(2): itlepip, Kelvin Smith,

Kelvin Smith

(1): Mathblade,

Navy

(1): NJAC,

Not Voting

(3): Navy, alban, Agent Sparkles,
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
*Agent Sparkles V/LA
*Agent Sparkles had 24 hours to post or get force repleced
*Math V/LA till Jul 3rd

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-07-07 21:50:00)

[MathBlade]

Just got home. Will read this in the AM.

[Titus]

I'll deal with this in the morning. But please for the love of God do something other than tunnel on Math. It makes me want to never ever lynch them.

The problem is, your staunch defense of Math makes me feel like I'm on the right track, because it feels like you are dead set on shutting down any conversation on a Math lynch for what appears to me to be no good reason. Which also increases my feelings that you are scum. And which is why, if you are town, I need you to understand this is why I fucking hate reads and don't trust my own or anyone else's. Hell, even if I'm right and you are both scum, that doesn't fucking help me. For all I know, I'm right for the wrong reasons, meaning that my ability to form reads is still ultimately valueless and destructive.

If you had actually said something based on their play, I'd be amenable to talking with you. You aren't. You're crowing strategy lynch when I'm the one slot in the game that learns nothing from your "strategy" lynch. You aren't having a read. Math also has pissed several people off which makes it an easy scum lynch. I don't expect you to be right, but I do expect a conversation.

What are you talking about? I already said so many times that I want to lynch MathBlade based on their play. I said that my starting point was strategy and that I've also come to believe that Math is scum. Do you want me to quote all of the times that I've said that or attacked Math's play?

You started from fypov a strategy lynch and sold yourself the behavior is scummy. I want to hear you engage about other people. That's the most persuasive thing you can do.

[Titus]

VOTE: Navy

Not here policy

[Vedith]

VOTE: Navy

[MathBlade]

I'll deal with this in the morning. But please for the love of God do something other than tunnel on Math. It makes me want to never ever lynch them.

The problem is, your staunch defense of Math makes me feel like I'm on the right track, because it feels like you are dead set on shutting down any conversation on a Math lynch for what appears to me to be no good reason. Which also increases my feelings that you are scum. And which is why, if you are town, I need you to understand this is why I fucking hate reads and don't trust my own or anyone else's. Hell, even if I'm right and you are both scum, that doesn't fucking help me. For all I know, I'm right for the wrong reasons, meaning that my ability to form reads is still ultimately valueless and destructive.

If you had actually said something based on their play, I'd be amenable to talking with you. You aren't. You're crowing strategy lynch when I'm the one slot in the game that learns nothing from your "strategy" lynch. You aren't having a read. Math also has pissed several people off which makes it an easy scum lynch. I don't expect you to be right, but I do expect a conversation.

What are you talking about? I already said so many times that I want to lynch MathBlade based on their play. I said that my starting point was strategy and that I've also come to believe that Math is scum. Do you want me to quote all of the times that I've said that or attacked Math's play?

This isn't a thing.

If you want to lynch me based off of play then that is a read.
If you want to lynch me based on the fact Titus is innocent then that is strategy. "Coming to believe I am scum" is a read. So again, this is a read.

Either A) You trust your reads and actually use them which makes you a liar to try to get me lynched or
B) You don't trust your reads and therefore don't actually think I am scum so you are a liar to try to get my lynched.

Which one do you pick?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Navy

Not here policy

Lots of people aren't here. Again. Will join it if it takes off (4+)

[MathBlade]

Don't replace me. I'm still reading. On weekends I can't contribute much.

WRT some recent posts I prefer to lynch Navy than AS. This could change when I finish reading, but meanwhile you have my support on that lynch, Vedith:

VOTE: Navy

...I don't want day to end without NJAC posting content. He said he could do wonders if alive and I want him to prove it.

[MathBlade]

@Kelvin, From any perspective, making Math their problem is completely optimal. I told you that we're not agreeing. We discussed this. If Math is scum, their options are reduced. Don't act like I am ignoring you because I am not agreeing with you.

@Math. I don't want a policy lynch. I want a scum lynch.

Tiiiiiiiiitus.......

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Agent Sparkles

Alban, let's do this.

Honestly, at this point, I'll settle for a Titus lynch. I don't like that it won't confirm MathBlade's alignment if she flips town, but I'm almost willing to make that bet , if people are just going to be obstinate about MathBlade for no good reason. It's certainly a worse play than lynching Math, but it's better than any other possible wagon in this setup.

Yeah you've just shredded why I thought your slot was town. You can't seriously push Math as a strategic lynch and then turn around and want to lynch the person Math says is town. That's just garbage. I can't get why any rational player would do this and it reeks of you just wanting to push anywhere BUT the n1 doctors.

Wait, what's this about

Night 1

Doctors now?

Also, no, Math is the logical lynch. You're the slightly less logical, but still better than everything else lynch, because I'm starting to think you're just scum, so your scum flip is going to prove that Math is town.

Why would I even be afraid of lynching one of the Doctors as scum? I mean, you may not have read any of my scum game PTs, but standard operating procedure for me is to tell my partners that I will bus them without hesitation, if they don't appear town to me. I don't give a fuck about my goddamn partners living or dying and I probably never will. Most of the time, I'm too fucking arrogant to think that I will ever get lynched as scum. And replacing into a widely townread slot (apparently), what would I have to gain to go against the grain when a consensus bus/mislynch is way easier?

Like, are you guys both scum or can you really not stop and look at the situation from my perspective? Seriously, if you're town, just put yourself in my shoes for a second and think about what I'm doing right now and why it's the least scum-motivated thing I could do. Like, sure, I try to emulate my town play when I'm scum, but how is this wildly unpopular push on MathBlade the way to do that? I've got a recent history of being fairly amenable to the reads and wills of others, especially replacing into a large game. Why would I have to shake that shit up as scum?

This post is a scumslip.

If Titus flips scum (which she won't) that would auto confirm me as scum as I would be lying about an innocent on Titus. This reads exactly like you know I am Town and fucked yo.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'll deal with this in the morning. But please for the love of God do something other than tunnel on Math. It makes me want to never ever lynch them.

The problem is, your staunch defense of Math makes me feel like I'm on the right track, because it feels like you are dead set on shutting down any conversation on a Math lynch for what appears to me to be no good reason. Which also increases my feelings that you are scum. And which is why, if you are town, I need you to understand this is why I fucking hate reads and don't trust my own or anyone else's. Hell, even if I'm right and you are both scum, that doesn't fucking help me. For all I know, I'm right for the wrong reasons, meaning that my ability to form reads is still ultimately valueless and destructive.

If you had actually said something based on their play, I'd be amenable to talking with you. You aren't. You're crowing strategy lynch when I'm the one slot in the game that learns nothing from your "strategy" lynch. You aren't having a read. Math also has pissed several people off which makes it an easy scum lynch. I don't expect you to be right, but I do expect a conversation.

What are you talking about? I already said so many times that I want to lynch MathBlade based on their play. I said that my starting point was strategy and that I've also come to believe that Math is scum. Do you want me to quote all of the times that I've said that or attacked Math's play?

This isn't a thing.

Clearly it is, because it's happening.

If you want to lynch me based off of play then that is a read.

This is correct.

If you want to lynch me based on the fact Titus is innocent then that is strategy. "Coming to believe I am scum" is a read. So again, this is a read.

Again, correct.

Either A) You trust your reads and actually use them which makes you a liar to try to get me lynched or

Maybe you're just not understanding how the human mind works. I believe that you are scum. It's something that the illogical part of my brain tells me and I can't control. It's like pareidolia or apophenia. I want to rise up above this baser instinct of mine and focus entirely on strategy, but the connections I see are too convincing to me that I can't separate the logical and illogical parts.

B) You don't trust your reads and therefore don't actually think I am scum so you are a liar to try to get my lynched.

Either you are scum trying to paint me as a liar or you have a really black and white view of the world. Just because I don't trust my reads, doesn't mean I can't still think they are right. That would be stupid. If I thought my reads were wrong 100% of the time, then I'd just vote for my townreads and defend my scumreads.

Simply put, I feel like all reads are based on incomplete and flawed information, so they rarely offer more than random chance odds of being correct. As I've described, the primitive part of my brain that developed to perceive patterns in order to stay alive in the wild is now telling me that you need to die. But that's far too unreliable of a barometer to be used as the primary reason for decision-making. But when it supports a logical decision that I've already made, I'm not going to pretend that I'm not feeling like the choice is correct.

Which one do you pick?

False dichotomy much, Math?