Open 692 - Two-fold Matrix6 (Game Over)

[BTD6_maker]

The deadline has been extended to allow Vedith 48 hours.

[Vedith]

It's okay BTD, I'll have the game solved in 24 hours.

[Something_Smart]

Can you two stop fighting with each other?

Yes, we can.

Can you read our argument and give your thoughts on it?

[Crush]

It's okay BTD, I'll have the game solved in 24 hours.

I'm scared, probably for the right reasons.

[Aristophanes]

I misspoke: it might be scum motivated for other reasons, but it's not directly in his faction's favor.

How the fuck do you know what faction he is?

VOTE: SS
Obvious scumslip. SS is Realeo's scumbro.

Have you never heard of theoreticals??
XD
You kill me!

And I think he voted it and alluded to it being a food idea, but never pushed for a NL. Thus he didn't advocate for it exactly.

[Aristophanes]

:O Vedith is here!?!? =D

[Vedith]

It's okay BTD, I'll have the game solved in 24 hours.

I'm scared, probably for the right reasons.

Shut up, Crush!

[Vedith]

:O Vedith is here!?!? =D

Hi Ari!

*Waves*!!

[Aristophanes]

:O Vedith is here!?!? =D

Hi Ari!

*Waves*!!

*Waves back excitedly*

Hiiiii!

You're in a town slot, so do you want to jam out in...like 10 hours and solve the game?

I'll be just about home from work by then

[Vedith]

That's like 3am for me, but sure!
During that point I'll read up and we can discuss who's scum!

[Aristophanes]

That's like 3am for me, but sure!
During that point I'll read up and we can discuss who's scum!

Oh geez, I hope I don't screw up your sleep cycle!

[Crush]

So I'm somewhat caught up now, took me a bit longer because: excuses. So I'm glad Lane subbes out because of the deadline.

@Realeo, don't know if you did yet but could you elaborate on why you think Aris and Oldwino could be partners.
@Vedith,

looking

forward

to

your

beloveth

rainbow

read.

@JJD, why did you change your read on Dave from scum to town? I don't really think he deserved that one. Also: 183.
@Kantrip, why is Rory such a strong town read? I don't really feel it yet, that slot is really slipping under my radar. Also: What do you think of the last posts Aris made, how does it influence your evaluation of the slot?
@Davesaz could you give some reads? I think it's funny that you called out the game for moving too slowly.
@Aris, looking forward to your reads on the other slots.

[Vedith]

Oh geez, I hope I don't screw up your sleep cycle!

Catching scum is my priority!

@Vedith, looking forward to your beloveth rainbow read.

Crush is town! \o/

[Kasumeat]

Have you never heard of theoreticals??
XD
You kill me!

I could buy that the factional claim in these posts is a theoretical that he's neglected to qualify as such:

No, because it's not scum-motivated. If Realeo is scum, the best result for him is to lynch any player not of his faction.

I misspoke: it might be scum motivated for other reasons, but it's not directly in his faction's favor.

But it's the degree of certainty here that I'm very confident is not theoretical. In a theoretical, one isn't

certain

about a player's motivation like he is here. Look, here's what it looks like when SS discusses the the motivation of a player he isn't scum with:

It's very hard to explain what I don't like about those posts, but I feel like the motivation behind them is "give reads".

It's a different tone, with a lot less certainty.


And look at the response from Realeo:

Can you two stop fighting with each other?

He doesn't give any insight or opinions on this. He just tries to draw everyone's attention away from my case. Exactly what scum would do to try to protect fellow scum who slipped up.

[Kasumeat]

EBWOP:

Have you never heard of theoreticals??
XD
You kill me!

I could buy that the factional claim in these posts is a theoretical that he's neglected to qualify as such:

No, because it's not scum-motivated. If Realeo is scum, the best result for him is to lynch any player not of his faction.

I misspoke: it might be scum motivated for other reasons, but it's not directly in his faction's favor.

But it's the degree of certainty OF MOTIVATION here that I'm very confident is not theoretical. In a theoretical, one isn't

certain

about a player's motivation like he is here. Look, here's what it looks like when SS discusses the the motivation of a player he isn't scum with:

It's very hard to explain what I don't like about those posts, but I feel like the motivation behind them is "give reads".

It's a different tone, with a lot less certainty.


And look at the response from Realeo:

Can you two stop fighting with each other?

He doesn't give any insight or opinions on this. He just tries to draw everyone's attention away from my case. Exactly what scum would do to try to protect fellow scum who slipped up.

[Something_Smart]

I literally said

in the next post

that I misspoke when I said it was not scum-motivated.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@JJD, why did you change your read on Dave from scum to town? I don't really think he deserved that one.

dave asks questions that seem to be oriented around getting to understand ppl and where they are coming from
his questions neither strike me as fillers nor do they look like hes trying to strangle someone for weak sause

[Realeo]

@Realeo, don't know if you did yet but could you elaborate on why you think Aris and Oldwino could be partners.

The double standard which I think has been resolved?

[Realeo]

Can you two stop fighting with each other?

Yes, we can.

Can you read our argument and give your thoughts on it?

It's basically an issue of interpretation and possible contradiction, but I don't see how that leads to any of you being scum.

[Realeo]

I mean, an argument has two parts: premise and conclusion. I understand the premise, I don't understand the conclusion.

[Realeo]

Let me put it this way, I'm sure Dave will be annoyed.

An argument has a premise and a conclusion.

That premise in this case is if "S_S is lying"

The conclusion is "He's scummy as fuck."

Kasumeat demonstrated where his argument are inconsistent but I am not aware why those are scummy.

I mean, it's like Kantrip's case @ Kasumeat

Kantip, I see your concern @ Kasumeat, but is it town contradiction or mafia contradiction?

Human are bound to be inconsistent, especially emotion consistency. Simply pointing out inconsistencies does not fulfill the burden of proof.

[Kantrip]

Alright, continuing on from page 7. Reading Kasu’s entrance post again, I really don’t like that he has WhyMafia as a stronger scum read than Ari. He says he agrees with the Ari wagon completely, but WhyMafia is his strongest scumread because of his “push on Judge.” The thing is, at this point WhyMafia didn’t actually push Judge at all. All he said was an inactive vote doesn’t accomplish anything, yet Kasu is stretching it to “WhyMafia is reaching to find something to push someone for.” I don’t get that impression at all considering WhyMafia isn’t making any effort to push Judge but rather just calling him out for doing something useless. On top of this, Kasu’s post is very full of qualifiers and rhetorical questions which is common from scum who want to push people without coming off as aggressive and stepping on toes. Scum points.

On top of this, I dislike Kasu’s #156 for discrediting Realeo’s townslip. Later on I point out why it makes more sense to be town, and he agrees with me there, but initially he tries to say it’s more likely to be scum than town. I have a hard time believing he actually thought this at the time. He also told WhyMafia “I'm voting you because you're accusing somebody of being scummy because he's putting a vote on a lurker and encouraging that lurker to participate.” While WhyMafia does say that he thinks Judge is scummy, his actions in asking what the inactive vote accomplish really doesn’t look like “reaching to find a reason to call someone scum.” It looks way more like WhyMafia just thinks the vote is useless and he doesn’t put very much effort in pushing to lynch Judge as much as getting Judge to explain himself.

On reread Rory confuses me. I still find myself agreeing with his perspective, and his questions all make sense to me from someone who is looking to scumhunt, but I don’t like how much he’s sitting back. He doesn’t make an effort to really push his scumreads or explain his stances, and after he asks his questions, although they are good, it doesn’t seem like his stances are being influenced by answers, or that he cares about getting answers at all. The fact that it looks like his questions are legit scumhunting doesn’t mean as much because of the multiball set-up, so it makes me feel like he may be a strong player who has agreeable stances but the lack of productivity has me reconsidering my town read on him. He’s not a slot that I’d be interested in lynching Day 1 but I want to see if he goes anywhere with all his questions and starts making lynch pushes in the future, otherwise I could easily see him being scum.

Judge’s alignment continues to be an enigma to me. His massive wall post just to prove a point doesn’t read like something scum would do. It’s vindictive as hell and the way he throws a scum read at Realeo even though he had been townreading him before is whack. It doesn’t make sense for scum to do that in my mind. I think he might just be hella defensive and vindictive and OMGUS-ing everywhere. Moving to null, slight town. Still confusing as hell.

Kasu tries to argue that WhyMafia does push Judge for his inactive vote. While he does say he has the vote as scummy, the fact that he doesn’t make any active effort to present that case to other people says to me he’s really not concerned with pushing a lynch over it and Kasu suggesting as much is reaching. It’s not that WhyMafia doesn’t call the vote scummy, it’s that he worries more about getting explanations from Judge than he does trying to push him.

SS’s entrance into the game is interesting. I like his initiative and willingness to have unpopular opinions. Particularly his lane and Ari townreads and his Rory scumread. I disagree with townreading Ari based on meta, but other than that I can see where he’s coming from. I definitely understand what he’s saying about Rory because some of what he mentions was pinging for me as well, but I’m more hesitant just because I really identify with Rory’s thought processes.

I don’t like oldwino’s #266. I think Judge is OMGUS-ing by calling Realeo scum and his justification that Realeo voting him then voting back on Ari is some manipulative scum ploy to be elsewhere on the wagon is really silly. It feels opportunistic from oldwino to go along with this reasoning. However, considering his original reads list was an inconsistent mess based off of activity and content, I could also see him actually believing this. Mehhh.

Raya’s #286 leaves like no impression on me. She comments on some of PM’s posts from the beginning of the game and asks lane for clarification from an answer he gave in RVS. Her vote is still on Judge as far as I know but she’s not doing anything related to that. She’s also using a lot of qualifiers and “I like this BUT I dislike this” comments to say a lot of nothing. Scum points.

I like SS’s comments about Kasu’s scumhunting seeming conclusions-driven. I think that’s a good way of describing it and I see where he’s coming from. The interaction with Realeo here makes me like them both more. Town points for both.

I actually like Ari’s ISO posts. It irks me that it was so difficult to get content from him, but he’s rational in examining people who were voting for him. He likes Rory’s and my pushes on him but dislikes oldwino’s, and I think this is pretty reasonable and agree with what he says about oldwino’s reads list so early being weird and then his lane scumread being reachy and compromising to Ari seeming opportunistic. Town points for Ari, scum points for oldwino.

The Kasu/Ari exchange with Kasu accidentally putting Ari at L-1 without announcing it is not alignment indicating, imo.

Kasu’s #367 though does read as genuine. It’s the same feeling I have with Rory that he has with oldwino.

Realeo’s sudden desire to No Lynch looks weird as hell to me and I strongly disagree with it. I don’t like No Lynching on principle on Day 1 even if the set-up might possibly be beneficial for it. In this instance, it isn’t even beneficial because none of the potential power roles we may have even give us definitive information since they can only affect one scum team. Not sure where the intention to No Lynch comes from but it seems like he legitimately believes it’s a good idea. Lots of people are town reading him at this point and I don’t see scum doing something so out of left field like that. I think a lot of his jokes and stuff like the random No Lynch and the double vote fake claim are whacky but I still think he’s town.

I agree with what Kasu says about No Lynching being a bad idea and why. He’s right that our power roles can’t clear anyone no matter what we have but I think jumping to calling it a “scum claim” from Realeo is too much. The motivation just doesn’t make sense to me with the risk reward ratio of advocating a No Lynch. I think Realeo just advocated something really dumb but I can’t see why he would do it unless he seriously believed it was a good idea.

I may have to take that back. Realeo trying to argue he never advocated a No Lynch looks like mad weird backpedaling. He pretty clearly put his vote on No Lynch and said it was a good idea but it would be anti-town to explain why. It would be one thing to admit he was wrong and change his mind, but to say he never suggested such a thing is maaaad strange.

I really dislike how dave just keeps coming in with useless one-liner posts with like exactly one useless question and one excuse for inactivity. Leaning scum on him the more he keeps doing this….

I actually like Raya’s #401. Suddenly she’s commenting on current events and weighing lynch options rather than dwelling on RVS stuff that doesn’t matter. My stances are basically the opposite of hers but I think it’s a case of her reads being more surface-level. They’re at least consistent and it seems she’s more conservative with her vote but she at least mentions her intent to vote Ari of the current options which I’m going to count as effectively a vote.

Kasu feels like he’s coming on too strong with the Realeo push all of a sudden. I agree that the No Lynch stuff is weird but I think SS’s angle makes more sense. He’s considering the fact that the No Lynch push makes no sense for Realeo regardless of his alignment. Like it doesn’t help him as scum either. Then Kasu pushes SS for this as if it’s a scum slip when it was pretty clear to me he was talking in the hypothetical situation that Realeo is scum like Kasu is suggesting. Still seems to me like Kasu’s conclusions aren’t genuine and, like SS said earlier on, his stances are conclusion-based.

Apologies for another wall but I think it's beneficial to town to showcase my thought process.

VOTE: Kasumeat

[Kantrip]

@Crush -- I like Rory's early game because I understand what he's trying to accomplish with all his questions and I agree with his stances. However, as time goes on his lack of initiative slightly concerns me, and since scum can scumhunt genuinely too it's not necessarily a town-tell that I find my thought process lining up with his. I like Ari's ISO posts and once he starts contributing to the game I think he comes across looking much better.

[Kasumeat]

I generally agree with you Kantrip, especially about Dredd being really hard to read, Ari looking better and better the more he posts, and Rory starting good and getting scummier and scummier. Obviously I disagree with your read on me, especially since in your post you both call me genuine for posts such as 367 and ingenuine elsewhere. Frankly I'm entirely sure what you mean when you say I have conclusion-based stances, so I can't argue against that other than to say if you care to read any of my games on this site, they're all town and you'll see that it's quite consistent, especially with my previous game (I was slightly more passive early on).

Unfortunately thanks to the deadline extensions, I'm likely going to miss the deadline, and will be V/LA until July 7. This will be my last effort-post until then. I will probably have time to phone post tomorrow, but then I'm on planes for ~36 hours so who knows.

I'm going to do a quick full reads list in case I get lynched while V/LA so you guys have something helpful to go on:

Scummiest

SS
Realeo

Vedith (Lane)
Whymafia
Davesaz
Rory
Crush (PMM)
Ari

Dredd
Kantrip

Oldwino
Raya

Towniest

A lot of scum-leans, I know. But that's very typical for me. As you can see I tend to SR players a lot for anti-town behaviour and inconsistency in logic, and unfortunately there's been a lot this game.

I'm very torn as to whether to claim so early, but I think it's best if I don't.

[Realeo]

Still seems to me like Kasu’s conclusions aren’t genuine and, like SS said earlier on, his stances are conclusion-based.

But you would notice that he is being consistent.

His current stand on me is consistent with his earlier "not so townread" me and his stand at S_S.

Kasumeat breaths under the name of logical consistency and I don't see why that being consistent is scummy.