Newbie 1797: Space | Endgame

[Plotinus]

VC 3.12

Mountains of Dust in the Carina Nebula

Explanation: It's stars versus dust in the Carina Nebula and the stars are winning. More precisely, the energetic light and winds from massive newly formed stars are evaporating and dispersing the dusty stellar nurseries in which they formed. Located in the Carina Nebula and known informally as Mystic Mountain, these pillar's appearance is dominated by the dark dust even though it is composed mostly of clear hydrogen gas. Dust pillars such as these are actually much thinner than air and only appear as mountains due to relatively small amounts of opaque interstellar dust. About 7,500 light-years distant, the featured image was taken with the Hubble Space Telescope and highlights an interior region of Carina which spans about three light years. Within a few million years, the stars will likely win out completely and the entire dust mountain will evaporate.

Image and text credit

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BlackVoid

(2): Human Sequencer, esires

L-2

esires

(2): NotTheRealPaul, Dunkerdoodles

L-2

Not Voting

(2): skitter30, BlackVoid

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

The day 3 deadline is in

:

(expired on 2017-07-06 19:59:10)

Mod Notes

Hi, I'm the backup mod!

-ThinkBig, the moderator, is V/LA on weekends and on Jewish holidays. Plotinus, the backup moderator, will be modding during this time.
-skitter30 is V/LA on shabbat and Jewish holidays.

[Human Sequencer]

I was just about ready to vote esires until you started this push on me, just btw. You had me pocketed for a bit, but this push on me was ill-timed, imo; I think you should've pushed me tomorrow, after we lynched esires, not try to set it up today, because of course I was going to fight back.

@Everyone, this post does not come from town. If she were town legitimately thinking I was scum, she'd just make arguments for my lynch and give me advice on how to play better at endgame. Town does not give advice to their scumreads on how to play better in the middle of a game.

The only kind I can see doing it are townies with hyper-rhetoric playstyles and skitter does not come across as that sort of personality at all. This post is so fake.

The only reason she's posting it is to make it seem like she's definitely town but she's overdoing it.

Disagree entirely.

I think skitter is scum. She spent all of D1 pushing Dunker for bad reasons. I think she bussed Drixx D2. On D3, she's spent a lot of time setting up me and esires to be lynched often with reasoning that feels fake and manufactured.

Disagree. I think her push on Dunker was on bad reasons, but I think it was genuine.
Interested in particular posts/quotes in which you feel Skitter was bussing Drixx.
I don't think her reasoning on you/esires is particularly fake nor particularly manufactured.

This is HS still expressing their disdain towards septuple wallposts.

[NotTheRealPaul]

Yaaa! HS is posting!!

Im assuming ur still only considering BV/Esires?

Looking back, BV's strong play/activity was null/NAI. Because as either alignment he would have to come out strong so as not to get lynched as scum or not get lynched and find last scum. Like it was really his only play/strategy given the position he was in at D3 start.

[BlackVoid]

Wait, what? That's super-weird for you to say right after I said I needed to re-read the game to check whether my townread on you was accurate.

[BlackVoid]

I partly didn't want to bring this up because if I get lynched and skitter is scum, she could probably use it against Paul in lylo but there were some things about Paul that make me not entirely sure he's town.

1. He does seem to treat Drixx in a rather weird way, jumping to take credit for any Drixx pushes.
2. I felt like he was somewhat egging me on when I suspected skitter and giving lip-service to my suspicion but continuing to push esires. I think his confidence in skitter being town is rather too high and the way he's both dismissing the suspicion as well as agreeing is odd.

But I don't think it's HS. I don't think it's esires. If it's not skitter, it has to be Paul.

[BlackVoid]

Disagree. I think her push on Dunker was on bad reasons, but I think it was genuine.
Interested in particular posts/quotes in which you feel Skitter was bussing Drixx.
I don't think her reasoning on you/esires is particularly fake nor particularly manufactured.

This is HS still expressing their disdain towards septuple wallposts.

I wouldn't need to make septuple wallposts if anyone else is actually engaging my points. What were you expecting from me? You start off the day demanding I post content, and when I do, you park your vote on me and check out of the game. That's no better than Paul's last post of "everything BV did could come from scum because as scum, he has no other choice but to play a strong game." I'll go look for the posts but I don't feel like anything I do is making any difference at all and it's really demotivating.

[esires]

Hi everyone, I've been reading the thread in bits and pieces but I'm traveling for a bachelor party and will have lots of time tomorrow morning to get caught up. I want to read the skitter. vs BV posts closely but at a cursory glance I agree with skitter that BV is likely looking to lock in two mislynches ATM

[BlackVoid]

How am I trying to lock in two mislynches. I'm reading you as town. Also, why would I push skitter over HS here if my intent was to lock in a mislynch?

How am I locking in a mislynch by writing a case on why you are town when it was likely down to you or me and basically assuring that I get lynched?

[BlackVoid]

You need a second mislynch though. Dunker is confi!town, you're now buddying Paul, and you came in the game hardtownreading HS, which would be even harder to walk back from than your townread of me.

Which left me, so yeah, you're pushing me. Scum in your slot has to find *someone* to mislynch, and it looks like you decided to run with pushing me.

If you're actually town and you wind up lynching me here, I'd really like you to unravel the logic behind this. "Walking back on a townread" is nowhere near as difficult as you are claiming it to be. Townies change their minds all the time and scum can pretend to do so as well. I've "walked back" on nearly every read I've posted. I thought at times that people were scum and then I changed my mind and thought they were town and so on and so forth, for you, esires, and Paul. Agreeing that HS is indeed lurking and exacerbating the paranoia would have been ridiculously easy if I were scum. I really don't understand why you think I would as scum think "oh, I said I'd be floored if HS is scum, now that read is set in stone and I can't change my mind ever." It's really not and to me, it feels like you're stretching to fit it into the theory of me being scum. I also wouldn't as scum push so heavily against someone whose vote I would need to mislynch esires. All the arguments I made against you today, I could have made tomorrow after acknowledging that I was "wrong" on esires.

I keep scumreading you because I feel like you are perceptive enough to see that I wouldn't push esires until it looks like I've avoided the lynch for the day and then blow it all up by attacking the most townread player in the game whose vote I needed and turn the lynch back onto myself. What's even the motivation for me to townread esires here as scum? Would people actually go "oh, BV was right about esires flipping town, he must be town too!" tomorrow? It just makes it more difficult to lynch him today.

I'm unhappy about this game because I joined when I saw all the analysis that you and HS were posting early in the game and thought this would be a fun game where people were actually thinking things through and not spamposting one-liners or quicklynching like so many other games. But one of HS refuses to read 90% of my posts and you, I'm very very skeptical of flipping town at this point.

[NotTheRealPaul]

Lol I was pointing something out. Why do u atomatically think that anyone who questions their townread of u is scum? Feels like ur trying to divide what was a pretty strong town core.

Taking credit for Drixx shit? The stuff with dunkers was because he eas fluffing. I didnt want him to get away with it. Now I think that fluffing might just be dunkers playstyle (kinda). The rest was me defending myself via my position on the wagon. So yea I was taking credit for stuff but not in a scummy way? Like my main focus wasnt the credit taking it was something else and the credit taking kinda came with it as a secondary thing.

Why are u bring ur suspicions up now?

Also, as far as skitters I have no idea. I need to look at it myself but I get where ur coming from and most of what u say makes sense.

[NotTheRealPaul]

@skitters BV has a point. Im still townreading him because his strategy would be shitty scumpkay. I will admit there is minor paranoia as obviously he has thought that too, so I guess he could be scum? But its still a dumb/harder path for scum to take especially when he pretty much had an esires lynch in the bag and coulda pursued HS tommorrow cobsidering our suspicion.

TBH I feel like scum are in a good spot rn because there are like 3 mislynnches u coulda pulled between the everyone but me. I dont think Id get lynched simply because there is no real support for it seems, but at this point scum could push either BV, skitters, HS, or esires and prib get a lynch (maybe not skitters).

[skitter30]

So, I'm here for a bit.

@BV: I'll spoil these so that everyone else doesn't have to read through this, although I will say that part of my case against you is in the spoiler.

Spoiler: Another trend in your posts I don't like:

Skitter doesn't strike me as the kind of scum player who'd go down with the ship. If a partner is doomed, she'd cut her losses and aim for maximum towncred, especially so if she's the roleblocker.

I didn't think you were incapable of it, just that I didn't expect you to tunnel as scum. My scumread on you developed later and is based on much stronger reasoning so I'm putting more weight into that

That was when it started to sink in for me that with the playstyle you have, being so aggressive as scum would be really difficult. I have a tough time seeing you tunnel Dunker all of D1 to the point of getting him to L-1 and almost lynched (except his claim saved him) as scum.

If you drew town here, I feel like your perspective would be different and you'd be more careful/look deeper with how you interpret interactions of living players with flipped scum.

I don't think I've ever seen town having a thought process like that. It feels catchy, a bit too-tidy, and constructed to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

A lot of your read of me seems to be 'I don't think this is something she could do as scum/town' or 'This is what I think she'd do as scum/town', which is an argument you've made to show you think I'm

both

alignments at one time or another. These are basically meta arguments. I have precisely one game - a scum game - on site. I've never played with you before. How are you qualified to judge what I'm capable of as scum? How are you qualified to judge what I'm capable of as

town

? I don't have any town games here for you to read. Why are you so certain that these thought processes aren't ones I'd naturally have?

They are. This is how I think. I'm literally chronicling what I think. You're dismissing my thoughts and reads and analyses by simply saying they're things you don't think I'd write as town, and you're in no way positioned to make that assessment.

You do it again here:

The only kind I can see doing it are townies with hyper-rhetoric playstyles and skitter does not come across as that sort of personality at all.

What the hell is a 'hyper-rhetoric' playstye? Another thing you've been doing is describe my play using, for lack of a better word, buzzwords. Like here, with 'hyper-rhetoric' playstyle.

Or here:

When townies have reads, they are a LOT more messy, more chaotic, and have deeper thought processes. Your either/or reads on me and esires and reasons given feel extremely manufactured.

None of these actually mean anything. What does it mean that my posts aren't 'messy' or 'chaotic' enough? What does it mean that my reads are manufactured? Can you point to posts that make you think this? These accusations are impossible to defend against because they're so vague and overreaching that they can be construed to mean almost anything. Like, if you want to talk about a particular post, I'm down. But to entirely dismiss my reasoning because you think it's 'manufactured', without showing me how or why you think that, is disingenuous.

Yes, I'm fully aware that I was nitpicking the chainsaw defense thing. I was using that as an example to highlight the fact that words you're using to describe my play are vague labels that I don't feel match up with what I've been doing.

[Dunkerdoodles]

How am I trying to lock in two mislynches. I'm reading you as town. Also, why would I push skitter over HS here if my intent was to lock in a mislynch?

How am I locking in a mislynch by writing a case on why you are town when it was likely down to you or me and basically assuring that I get lynched?

Theoretically if you are scum, pushing HS wouldn't be a good idea for you. Lots of us expressed our opinion on drixx vs HS being scum vs town so your arguement would have to be pretty good. Same with Paul, most of us are town reading him (for the record, yes I still think he could be scum) and I'm confirmed so your 2 easiest mislynches to get are skitter and esires

[skitter30]

I partly didn't want to bring this up because if I get lynched and skitter is scum, she could probably use it against Paul in lylo but there were some things about Paul that make me not entirely sure he's town.

1. He does seem to treat Drixx in a rather weird way, jumping to take credit for any Drixx pushes.
2. I felt like he was somewhat egging me on when I suspected skitter and giving lip-service to my suspicion but continuing to push esires. I think his confidence in skitter being town is rather too high and the way he's both dismissing the suspicion as well as agreeing is odd.

But I don't think it's HS. I don't think it's esires. If it's not skitter, it has to be Paul.

Nice framing. I've been saying since like early/mid day2 that I'm not lynching Paul, so I'm not sure why you're alleging that I'd be using your points in LYLO against him.

I think that a lot of your reads are not 'chaotic/messy', but are instead opportunistic. Your reads aren't evolving naturally.

Spoiler: Paul

Three pages ago, you were blatantly buddying Paul and saying things like

^ Talk to me about that Paul. You're my only voice of sanity in here.

You don't say that about a scumread. You say that about someone you're strongly townreading.

And you also say

I think Paul is town. I like Paul. . . . It's either esires or skitter.

OK, now me and esires are in your mislynch pool, still townreading Paul.

Then you say this to Paul.

I swear if you don't lynch skitter when I flip town, I'll be really disappointed.

Again, you say this to someone you're townreading. You don't say this to someone you suspect of being scum.

Two posts later (and you wrote the intervening posts), you say this:

I really want to make sure I'm right in townreading Paul because I have a few things that weirded me out and I need to double-check them.

Now your read is wavering? What happened between those two posts, made like 12 minutes after each other, that made you weirded out?

But I don't think it's HS. I don't think it's esires. If it's not skitter, it has to be Paul.

And then you say this. Now you're suspicious of Paul again. Like what happened to flip esires and Paul in your reads?

Spoiler: esires

UNVOTE:

Don't want esires at L-1 at this point. I haven't finished discussing everything I wanted to discuss.

This implies that you're still scumreading him, but aren't ready to lynch him; you unvoted him because you want more time, not because you don't want him lynched.

I actually have a weak townread on esires now. After reflection, I can see why he'd wake up in the morning and get frustrated at a pair of long walls and give in, also thought the logic for townreading Paul based on HS's read was very genuine.

Ok, now there's a weak townread, with reasoning that makes sense by itself. It doesn't really make much sense with your 1182 where you literally vote him for the self-vote.

But once I started townreading him and refuse to vote him,

Much stronger townread? Based on what?

The only thing he said in between those two posts was 1279, where he just repeated the fact that he still think you're scum.

Ok, then comes 1297, where you give four reasons for townreading esires.

2. You originally said

Conflicted. I like the "this is not how a town-IC would play" because it feels like town trying to match Drixx's play with his perception of what an IC should do. I don't like the lack of vote and just poking Drixx for more content. You unvoted HS and suspected Drixx. The lack of moving your vote to Drixx feels like there's something missing.

so I'm not sure what happened to the rest of your read of this post.

4. You literally voted him for doing this. Now it's a reason to townread him?

You also seem to entirely forget about your major reasons for scumreading him; you never like readdress the points you raised in the following posts, or got any sort of explanation from esires for most of them. Namely, I'm referring to posts like: 1090, 1091, 1095, 1099, 1164

And we're at:

But I don't think it's HS. I don't think it's esires. If it's not skitter, it has to be Paul.

Where you don't even consider the idea that esires is scum.

I feel like your reasons for scumreading esires just evaporated. There was no progression on him here.

[BlackVoid]

Back from work. I'll start off answering skitter's questions first.

Spoiler: @Skitter

1. I'm not qualified to judge what you are capable of as scum. I'm just taking random guesses based off of your playstyle. I mean, if you started posting like Paul, I'd know something is up. Same if Paul started writing novels. You had a sort of uncertain, analytical tone to your posting and I expect players like that to be less aggressive as scum than as town.

2. Regarding the hyper-rhetoric playstyle, if I was playing with a spamposter from epicmafia, I wouldn't find it off if they started giving out advice to their scumreads on how to play better as scum. For some people, ridiculous rhetoric is a natural part of their playstyle. When you said it, it felt weird. It serves no purpose other than to posture.

3. I never said YOU specifically wouldn't have the thought process you did about me and esires. I said it doesn't look like a town thought process at all.

4. By "messy," I mean that natural thought processes don't fit as cleanly into categories as you made them fit. You ISO'd esires, then concluded that he was "scummy" but doesn't fit as scum with Drixx. Then you said I was townie, then ISO'd NC and said he makes perfect sense as a Drixx partner. In both cases, the reasoning you used felt like a stretch. I already made a post explaining why you are wrong about NC fitting in as a Drixx partner. In your haste to claim that I'm not responding to your points, you seem to have missed that I actually did. If anything esires' play towards Drixx made it hard to rule him out as a partner because it's all stuff I can see a scumpartner doing except for the things I mentioned in my towncase on him.

5. My Paul read: Mostly, I got annoyed that everyone's scumreading me no matter what I do and there was one person that I felt was in my corner and that felt good so I think I was overlooking him. When I thought I was going to get lynched today, I expressed my misgivings about some of his posts.

6. Between 1296 and 1298, I wrote 1297 where I detail my townread on esires. Once I managed to solidify my reasons by articulating them and narrowed it down to just you and Paul, I said so.

7. My esires read: I've thought about his self-vote and interpreted it differently after I've had time to consider it. Clearly, I thought he was my best mislynch option. Then I realized I needed to set up someone else to be mislynched because even I got esires lynched today, I'd be dead tomorrow so I started townreading him.

[BlackVoid]

Theoretically if you are scum, pushing HS wouldn't be a good idea for you. Lots of us expressed our opinion on drixx vs HS being scum vs town so your arguement would have to be pretty good. Same with Paul, most of us are town reading him (for the record, yes I still think he could be scum) and I'm confirmed so your 2 easiest mislynches to get are skitter and esires

Trying to read me based on what my "easiest mislynches" would be and checking whether my reads match will put you on the wrong track. Because as town, I'm going to have suspicions of other people. They may or may not be easy pushes. I'm going to want to play my best so I don't get lynched and lynch scum instead. No matter who I push, you could interpret that as a scum push. If I push esires, I'm scum pushing my "easiest mislynch." If I townread esires, I'm scum setting up my next mislynch. If I townread Paul, I'm "buddying" him. If I push Paul, I'm setting up my next mislynch. That's why this game makes me want to throw my hands up in the air and give up.

[BlackVoid]

@Paul, my issue with you is that you townread me all the way through but the moment I said that I need to check back on Paul to make sure I'm not giving him a free pass, you suddenly changed your tune to "maybe BV could be scum playing well." If you're town, that's a pretty weird co-incidence. I'm bringing my suspicions up now because I thought I was going to get lynched and wanted it on record. When I thought esires was most likely scum, I was pretty sure we could lynch him and end the game, or if not, I can voice my suspicions in lylo.

[BlackVoid]

For the record, I still think the scum is skitter. The way she initially called my posts transparent and super-town and slowly pivtoed into a full-blown attack on me after I started pushing her felt like a very calculated move. It didn't seem like genuine townie omgus (see HS's reaction to Drixx for instance). It felt like she realized that she needed to push my lynch before esires and started to work her way towards it.

[BlackVoid]

Also, as far as skitters I have no idea. I need to look at it myself but I get where ur coming from and most of what u say makes sense.

And yet, you are voting esires. Does what I said about esires being town make sense? I'd like to see a follow-up to this.

[esires]

@Void - Since everyone has been saying this entire day that it's an either/or between you and I, and that if we lynch one of us the other is next, that's why I see your unvote of me as a ploy. You pretty much NEED to go into tomorrow looking like town, because otherwise you're on the chopping block. So the combination of read reversals and the unvote on me look a lot like you felt that you were successful in coming across as town, and then pivoted into working on tomorrow. I think you felt that enough of the town was on board with lynching me today that you could even go so far as to say I'm town and not be a part of the lynch, especially if you were able to get HS on board with voting me. So, with all that in mind, it looks to me like a well-planned move but one that was a bit of an overstep.

[NotTheRealPaul]

@Paul, my issue with you is that you townread me all the way through but the moment I said that I need to check back on Paul to make sure I'm not giving him a free pass, you suddenly changed your tune to "maybe BV could be scum playing well." If you're town, that's a pretty weird co-incidence. I'm bringing my suspicions up now because I thought I was going to get lynched and wanted it on record. When I thought esires was most likely scum, I was pretty sure we could lynch him and end the game, or if not, I can voice my suspicions in lylo.

Idk if ur misrepping or misinterpreting what I said.

I was pointing out that scum you or town you MUST come out strong like that. So the string play is NAI. I dont think I said I ever stopped townreading u.

As far as skitters/esires I still think esires is scummier. We interpreted the self-bote differently, so I guess we agree to dosagree on esires.

[skitter30]

7. My esires read: I've thought about his self-vote and interpreted it differently after I've had time to consider it. Clearly, I thought he was my best mislynch option. Then I realized I needed to set up someone else to be mislynched because even I got esires lynched today, I'd be dead tomorrow so I started townreading him.

Uh . . .

You're admitting that you were initially pushing for his lynch in order to 'mislynch' him, not because you thought he was scum. Why are you looking for mislynches instead of actually looking for scum at that point? Then you realized you needed to set up someone else (me) to be mislynched. If you're trying to *misynch* me, you think I'm town. You don't set up a mislynch on someone you think is scum. You just lynch them. You admitted that your townread of esires is literally based on the fact that if you mislynch him today, you're up next tomorrow. So, your townread of him is based on self-survival and convenience, not because you actually think he's town.

This paragraph is incredibly concerning, hence why it's getting its own comment outside of the spoiler I"ll write later. It's actually vote-worthy.

VOTE: Blackvoid

L-1

Paul, Dunker, don't do anything stupid without talking about it first.

[BlackVoid]

Whoops. That was supposed to go in my scum PT. Good catch. And good game town.

[skitter30]

Yeah, that's what I thought. It was maybe a bit too late at night

You played super well though!

[skitter30]

You really did convince me you were town for a while. Like I said, I thought you started your push on me too early, and it made me suspicious.

(And that post is literally something I've done as town *a lot*. I try very hard not to, but I have tendancy to sometimes tell scum what I think their tactics/talking points should be, and then they listen do it because I gave them the idea .)

You played super well as scum