Open 688: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[gigabyteTroubadour]

yeah two of those are town

navy is bus material anyway

pedit: you have majority atm

[MathBlade]

Lol of those three Giga. Obviously.

[Kelvin Smith]

Also, I'd like to apologize. I've been in this game just over a week and already have the second-most posts. Hopefully my excessive posting has done some good in this game and will result in a win, because I realize it must be hell for everyone involved.

And just what have you learned?

You've been outshouting everyone else to lynch a slot that's frequently lynched for what? You came in with an agenda and have blocked anything else.

You could have 50000 million posts to me. I'm pissed I cannot test any theories here because you're shouting everyone out and bullying lynches.

I couldn't test alban because you dismantled it right before he proved his alignment.

Town needs all but 1 of us to agree. If you think Navy's town (by refusal to vote, yes), then you NEED me.

Same, I need one of you two to actually agree on a good wagon at a minimum.

I didn't say I learned anything. I think I did what needed to be done. But this many posts this quickly is still a lot to read. I did what I thought was best and I have no regrets.

All of the most influential players this game are guilty of shouting too loudly, to a degree. But at the end of the day, I just hope it all works out.

[Kelvin Smith]

...I have been offline and my three are Kelvin Navy Alban.

So then no actual words of wisdom, right?

[Kelvin Smith]

...I have been offline and my three are Kelvin Navy Alban.

Just to be clear, the fantasy that you are trying to spin is that all three scum claimed Doctor? And that Mutton, who initially claimed Cop, actually switched his claim to also be Doctor?

The absurdity of this post alone is almost grounds enough for lynching you.

[alban]

Kelvin and Titus, all you are doing right now is to discredit and deflate the other's theories. Why constantly highlight why the other's option is not a good lynch option for you? It will be more constructive if both of you give three options in the order of preference, whom you would like to lynch today? Clearly, Math and Navy are going to send one of you out of Orbit. So who are the other scums according to you? And we start from there.

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin and Titus, all you are doing right now is to discredit and deflate the other's theories. Why constantly highlight why the other's option is not a good lynch option for you? It will be more constructive if both of you give three options in the order of preference, whom you would like to lynch today? Clearly, Math and Navy are going to send one of you out of Orbit. So who are the other scums according to you? And we start from there.

Question for you. Why is it so important to you that Titus and I agree? If you vote Math, we don't need Titus on this lynch.

[MathBlade]

...I have been offline and my three are Kelvin Navy Alban.

So then no actual words of wisdom, right?

Considering I hadn't and still haven't read the thread since my last post with meaningful content no. Realistically I do not have time over weekends to read this much content. 90% of it I am pretty sure is grandstanding anyway. So meh.

[MathBlade]

...I have been offline and my three are Kelvin Navy Alban.

Just to be clear, the fantasy that you are trying to spin is that all three scum claimed Doctor? And that Mutton, who initially claimed Cop, actually switched his claim to also be Doctor?

The absurdity of this post alone is almost grounds enough for lynching you.

I am not trying to "spin" anything. Those are my scumreads.

[Titus]

...I have been offline and my three are Kelvin Navy Alban.

Just to be clear, the fantasy that you are trying to spin is that all three scum claimed Doctor? And that Mutton, who initially claimed Cop, actually switched his claim to also be Doctor?

The absurdity of this post alone is almost grounds enough for lynching you.

I am not trying to "spin" anything. Those are my scumreads.

Those reads make no sense. Why would Mutton fake to ensure the optimal lynch was always in the scum pool? If Mutton's scum, it makes more sense his buddies are cops than doctors.

[alban]

Kelvin and Titus, all you are doing right now is to discredit and deflate the other's theories. Why constantly highlight why the other's option is not a good lynch option for you? It will be more constructive if both of you give three options in the order of preference, whom you would like to lynch today? Clearly, Math and Navy are going to send one of you out of Orbit. So who are the other scums according to you? And we start from there.

Question for you. Why is it so important to you that Titus and I agree? If you vote Math, we don't need Titus on this lynch.

It is important coz if I go by scumminess, Titus is on a lower rung than you or RC. And I need either Titus (or maybe even two of Vedith or Gamma or Giga) to come on board and validate your lynch choices.

[alban]

Also, the same argument goes for Titus. I will not go ahead with their choices unless you and rC are on board. I believe that's the only way we don't scamper later on to avoid entering LYLO.

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin and Titus, all you are doing right now is to discredit and deflate the other's theories. Why constantly highlight why the other's option is not a good lynch option for you? It will be more constructive if both of you give three options in the order of preference, whom you would like to lynch today? Clearly, Math and Navy are going to send one of you out of Orbit. So who are the other scums according to you? And we start from there.

Question for you. Why is it so important to you that Titus and I agree? If you vote Math, we don't need Titus on this lynch.

It is important coz if I go by scumminess, Titus is on a lower rung than you or RC. And I need either Titus (or maybe even two of Vedith or Gamma or Giga) to come on board and validate your lynch choices.

Notice how Hamas and Giga are both on the wagon, validating the lynch choice. In fact, alban and Titus are the only other active living players who are not and never have supported this lynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'm not sure how Gamma became "Hamas," but I'll blame my phone.

[alban]

Kelvin and Titus, all you are doing right now is to discredit and deflate the other's theories. Why constantly highlight why the other's option is not a good lynch option for you? It will be more constructive if both of you give three options in the order of preference, whom you would like to lynch today? Clearly, Math and Navy are going to send one of you out of Orbit. So who are the other scums according to you? And we start from there.

Question for you. Why is it so important to you that Titus and I agree? If you vote Math, we don't need Titus on this lynch.

It is important coz if I go by scumminess, Titus is on a lower rung than you or RC. And I need either Titus (or maybe even two of Vedith or Gamma or Giga) to come on board and validate your lynch choices.

Notice how Hamas and Giga are both on the wagon, validating the lynch choice. In fact, alban and Titus are the only other active living players who are not and never have supported this lynch.

Talking about wagons Kelvin, you were on both Commknight and Sesq wagons, weren't you?
You are constantly throwing shade at me for not going ahead with your choices. I said, I am not opposed to Math/Navy lynch. But people I somewhat trust need to be on board for that. What part of it is unfathomable?
I don't want to repeat what happened with Sesq wagon where I didn't want to do exactly what you are asking me to do with the math wagon now, but I ended up doing that coz someone said the exact same thing you are saying now. That after we lynch this fellow, there will be clarity. There has been no clarity. I have been screaming from the rooftops that if lynching Sesq was done to achieve clarity, why the hell is there no effort driven to analyse the VCA or even Sesq's Day1-2? None of you are even talking about that. So then, how do I know that you will not do the same thing on D4? Worse still, how do I know that it's not all a ploy? Sorry, I don't want to go ahead with such promises. And the only way I believe I will find some semblance of honesty and truth from players that I read scummy is when players with diametrically opposite views can agree on a lynch. There are three scums, so even if Math/Navy are scums, there are still 2 more, and maybe the opposite party will have to grudgingly accept the alternative lynch.
Also, you need to consider this: In which universe will a scum!me will oppose so much for scum!math? In which universe will a scum!me will oppose anything so fervently that I will stand out? By saying no to Math as well as Navy lynch just coz 6 random players think of lynching them is not good enough reason for me. Especially coz you have really given a below average case on Math, and Titus has given a below average case on Navy. And by blocking these lynches (which I am sure you can achieve even without me), I am putting myself in the grave danger of becoming the next possibly lynch. Everyone either despises or is manipulating my stand to take me to the lynch. Which scum would do that? Yes, the moment I pose this argument, its authenticity goes for a toss coz I could be wifom-ing, but if I really wanted someone to die, I could have gone with any of the camps and got someone lynched. Making myself an easy target isn't a good strategy coz right now I am sticking out like a sore thumb.
Let's do this: If you want my vote, forget about getting titus on board. Why don't you revise your case on math and present it? You say I broke your poor case on Math by giving even poorer reasons. Let's have your revamped case on Math. Let everyone evaluate it. Vedith is absent. Titus is against Math lynch. If Gamma and Giga get convinced by your case on math, I will come on board as well.

[alban]

And yeah, I know that both Giga and Gamma are already on the wagon, but maybe they will change their mind once you put together your case. I really want them to go through your reasons on Math being a scum.

[alban]

For the sake of reference, this was the earlier conversation between me and Kelvin regarding Math.
An interesting titbit: after I poked holes in Kelvin's theory, Math voted for me

Hey people, can you please stop all the hyperbole and talk in simple language? Just say what you want without going into all possible logical scenarios. When I try reading through your posts, my head starts swimming.

I mean, the problem is that you kind of need to consider all possible scenarios to evaluate the strategic validity of a plan. I'll try to cut to the chase though.

Can you lay down your arguments in the form of:
Who?

MathBlade

Why?

1. Because Math being scum means we also need to consider that Titus may be scum, which is important, because she's currently seen as clear-ish.

2. Because my interaction with Math feels to me like I'm interacting with scum. Not even attempting to be reasonable and only launching attacks on me, rather than even discussing my proposal.

3. Severe Titus buddying that I'm not sure is because Titus is also scum or because Titus is town and Math wants to manipulate her.

What if they turn out to be not what you thought?

The beauty of my plan is that it legitimately does not matter if I'm wrong for three reasons:

1. Math's power is spent and Math is thus mechanically useless.

2. Math flipping Town confirms Titus as town, meaning we can safely dedicate protection to her, hopefully ensuring we'll go into MyLo (and by extension, LyLo) with 100% confirmed town.

3. If I'm wrong, it destroys my current tunnel vision that I have on both Math and Titus, making me able to focus better on cooperation. As it stands now, I'm too riled up by my own confirmation bias to fully cooperate with others.

Appreciate the deconstruction of thoughts.

I am not convinced by your Why's:

1. If math is scum, it brings Titus to null. They then are as scummy or as townie as anyone else, their budyying with Math notwithstanding. In fact, it is likely that scum!Math would not mention their scum partners name as a night target. So, if Math is indeed scum, it is less likely that Titus is scum. In any case, how can Math-Titus association be a reason to lynch Math? This could be a reason for policy lynching Math, but still not a good enough reason.

2. Your interaction with Math is a good enough reason for you, but not for anyone else unless you elaborate specific points that we cant verify by going to those specific posts. Till then it's your word against Math's.

3. Yeah possible, but it's also possible that he is town, copped her in the night, and that's why this buddying. I can understand you are skeptical about it, but I can't understand how you can give that as a reason for lynching Math.

Now, coming to your points on what-if scenarios:

1. Yes, Math's power is spent. But at this point, numbers are as important, if not more, than power.

2. Yes agreed, but then we will be killing a town to ensure the townie status of another town, and I don't know if I wanna do that. But this is the most pursuasive argument you have.

3. Yes, and it's a good enough individual strategy but not a good group strategy. Each one of us may suspects but we can't follow this strategy to lynch those people.

[alban]

I'm not sure how Gamma became "Hamas," but I'll blame my phone.

I was reading about Palestine y'day

[Kelvin Smith]

And yeah, I know that both Giga and Gamma are already on the wagon, but maybe they will change their mind once you put together your case. I really want them to go through your reasons on Math being a scum.

There will be no case from me. I've said everything about Math that needs saying. And why would they feel any desire to change their votes when they each independently scumread Math? That doesn't even make sense.

[Kelvin Smith]

Talking about wagons Kelvin, you were on both Commknight and Sesq wagons, weren't you?

I was not. I wasn't even playing the game at the time when those people were lynched.

You are constantly throwing shade at me for not going ahead with your choices. I said, I am not opposed to Math/Navy lynch. But people I somewhat trust need to be on board for that. What part of it is unfathomable?

All of it, because you trust virtually nobody. Your suspicion list includes everybody in the game except Gamma's and giga's slots, who weren't posting during most of that period. What's more, you don't have to trust somebody to agree with them.

I don't want to repeat what happened with Sesq wagon where I didn't want to do exactly what you are asking me to do with the math wagon now, but I ended up doing that coz someone said the exact same thing you are saying now. That after we lynch this fellow, there will be clarity. There has been no clarity. I have been screaming from the rooftops that if lynching Sesq was done to achieve clarity, why the hell is there no effort driven to analyse the VCA or even Sesq's Day1-2? None of you are even talking about that. So then, how do I know that you will not do the same thing on D4? Worse still, how do I know that it's not all a ploy? Sorry, I don't want to go ahead with such promises.

I don't have any idea what the hell you're talking about, because I wasn't there, but whoever was making promises like that sounds like they were a fool. You don't get clarity from random fucking lynches and crappy VCAs. You get clarity from hard facts. And there's nothing harder than the fact that if Math flips town, Titus is confirmed town. That's fucking factual. And better yet, if Math doesn't flip town, it means we have less scum.

And the only way I believe I will find some semblance of honesty and truth from players that I read scummy is when players with diametrically opposite views can agree on a lynch. There are three scums, so even if Math/Navy are scums, there are still 2 more, and maybe the opposite party will have to grudgingly accept the alternative lynch.

Yeah, no. People can have opposite views on some stuff, while having similar views on other stuff. That doesn't mean that they are more likely to be mutually correct when they agree. There's absolutely nothing about consensus that makes it inherently more correct. There's just less room to point fingers.

Also, you need to consider this: In which universe will a scum!me will oppose so much for scum!math? In which universe will a scum!me will oppose anything so fervently that I will stand out? By saying no to Math as well as Navy lynch just coz 6 random players think of lynching them is not good enough reason for me. Especially coz you have really given a below average case on Math, and Titus has given a below average case on Navy. And by blocking these lynches (which I am sure you can achieve even without me), I am putting myself in the grave danger of becoming the next possibly lynch. Everyone either despises or is manipulating my stand to take me to the lynch. Which scum would do that? Yes, the moment I pose this argument, its authenticity goes for a toss coz I could be wifom-ing, but if I really wanted someone to die, I could have gone with any of the camps and got someone lynched. Making myself an easy target isn't a good strategy coz right now I am sticking out like a sore thumb.

In a universe where you want to be able to have the right reads if a lynch goes through, but you don't actually want to take part in the lynch because you are hoping it won't go through. Or maybe in the universe where you do weird crap so can say "why would I do this weird crap to draw attention to myself?"

Let's do this: If you want my vote, forget about getting titus on board. Why don't you revise your case on math and present it? You say I broke your poor case on Math by giving even poorer reasons. Let's have your revamped case on Math. Let everyone evaluate it. Vedith is absent. Titus is against Math lynch. If Gamma and Giga get convinced by your case on math, I will come on board as well.

I'm not revising my case on Math, because it was already solid enough as it stood. The strategy is solid and the reasoning for my scumread are my own and are not intended to convince you. I'm not casing Math again. I don't need to case Math again. I doubt Gamma or giga give a shit about me casing Math again.

It's this simple, alban: We have a little over a day left. You can be part of a scum lynch that you admitted to not opposing on multiple occasions or you can actively oppose it by refusing to vote and making it look like you are protecting Math. Half the players find Math suspicious (and rightfully so), so why do you want to be on the wrong side of that? Even the two players you apparently don't suspect support the lynch.

[alban]

And yeah, I know that both Giga and Gamma are already on the wagon, but maybe they will change their mind once you put together your case. I really want them to go through your reasons on Math being a scum.

There will be no case from me. I've said everything about Math that needs saying. And why would they feel any desire to change their votes when they each independently scumread Math? That doesn't even make sense.

Your choice.
They may change their case since sometimes people go by the reads of their townreads, and they should know how flimsy your arguments are.

[alban]

Talking about wagons Kelvin, you were on both Commknight and Sesq wagons, weren't you?

I was not. I wasn't even playing the game at the time when those people were lynched.

Semantics. Your slot was.

You are constantly throwing shade at me for not going ahead with your choices. I said, I am not opposed to Math/Navy lynch. But people I somewhat trust need to be on board for that. What part of it is unfathomable?

All of it, because you trust virtually nobody. Your suspicion list includes everybody in the game except Gamma's and giga's slots, who weren't posting during most of that period. What's more, you don't have to trust somebody to agree with them.

Let's not drag everyone into it and make it vague. My grouse is against your case which is flimsy.
You may not have to trust someone to agree with them. I do. Given these differences, I have still agreed to work with you and others, whereas you are being obstinate and refusing to present your case on Math.

I don't want to repeat what happened with Sesq wagon where I didn't want to do exactly what you are asking me to do with the math wagon now, but I ended up doing that coz someone said the exact same thing you are saying now. That after we lynch this fellow, there will be clarity. There has been no clarity. I have been screaming from the rooftops that if lynching Sesq was done to achieve clarity, why the hell is there no effort driven to analyse the VCA or even Sesq's Day1-2? None of you are even talking about that. So then, how do I know that you will not do the same thing on D4? Worse still, how do I know that it's not all a ploy? Sorry, I don't want to go ahead with such promises.

I don't have any idea what the hell you're talking about, because I wasn't there, but whoever was making promises like that sounds like they were a fool. You don't get clarity from random fucking lynches and crappy VCAs. You get clarity from hard facts. And there's nothing harder than the fact that if Math flips town, Titus is confirmed town. That's fucking factual. And better yet, if Math doesn't flip town, it means we have less scum.

You are sounding like a broken record. All your posts are "this is how it is, but if you don't agree with me, then I will shout/sulk". You don't have an idea about Sesq wagon coz you refuse to read. Even after naming a particular incident, why wouldn't you go back and read that particular incident? Your choice.

And the only way I believe I will find some semblance of honesty and truth from players that I read scummy is when players with diametrically opposite views can agree on a lynch. There are three scums, so even if Math/Navy are scums, there are still 2 more, and maybe the opposite party will have to grudgingly accept the alternative lynch.

Yeah, no. People can have opposite views on some stuff, while having similar views on other stuff. That doesn't mean that they are more likely to be mutually correct when they agree. There's absolutely nothing about consensus that makes it inherently more correct. There's just less room to point fingers.

Faulty logic and misrepresentation. Faulty logic coz just because more people agreeing on something might be incorrect doesn't mean less people agreeing on something is more correct. Misrepresentation coz you made me sound as if that's the way I want the world to play. I clearly stated and hence there's no need to misrepresent me, that these are my thoughts, and this is how I would like to play. I found a way wherein I can come on board, but you are refusing to help. Your choice.

Also, you need to consider this: In which universe will a scum!me will oppose so much for scum!math? In which universe will a scum!me will oppose anything so fervently that I will stand out? By saying no to Math as well as Navy lynch just coz 6 random players think of lynching them is not good enough reason for me. Especially coz you have really given a below average case on Math, and Titus has given a below average case on Navy. And by blocking these lynches (which I am sure you can achieve even without me), I am putting myself in the grave danger of becoming the next possibly lynch. Everyone either despises or is manipulating my stand to take me to the lynch. Which scum would do that? Yes, the moment I pose this argument, its authenticity goes for a toss coz I could be wifom-ing, but if I really wanted someone to die, I could have gone with any of the camps and got someone lynched. Making myself an easy target isn't a good strategy coz right now I am sticking out like a sore thumb.

In a universe where you want to be able to have the right reads if a lynch goes through, but you don't actually want to take part in the lynch because you are hoping it won't go through. Or maybe in the universe where you do weird crap so can say "why would I do this weird crap to draw attention to myself?"

Let me assure you both the universes are yours and I have no interest in partaking you. Seriously. There are people here who know my scum game, and this isn't how I play. Although I may generally appear scummy.

Let's do this: If you want my vote, forget about getting titus on board. Why don't you revise your case on math and present it? You say I broke your poor case on Math by giving even poorer reasons. Let's have your revamped case on Math. Let everyone evaluate it. Vedith is absent. Titus is against Math lynch. If Gamma and Giga get convinced by your case on math, I will come on board as well.

I'm not revising my case on Math, because it was already solid enough as it stood. The strategy is solid and the reasoning for my scumread are my own and are not intended to convince you. I'm not casing Math again. I don't need to case Math again. I doubt Gamma or giga give a shit about me casing Math again.

It's this simple, alban: We have a little over a day left. You can be part of a scum lynch that you admitted to not opposing on multiple occasions or you can actively oppose it by refusing to vote and making it look like you are protecting Math. Half the players find Math suspicious (and rightfully so), so why do you want to be on the wrong side of that? Even the two players you apparently don't suspect support the lynch.

Man, you have an amazing capacity to not even budge an inch.
You refuse to read about anything that happened before you joined.
You won't give a compelling case on Math yet are voting for them.
You won't revise your case on them.
You won't entertain possibilities of lynching anyone else coz of course Math is a lone scum.

I tried and I give up.

[alban]

Are you at least ready to the idea of copping Math so that in case they are town, we don't lose them?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Alban, I'm only lynching between Navy/Mathblade today and my case strongly relies on POE within the cops since I don't think all the doctors are scum.

RC is town. I've read D1 and neither Creature nor Gamma make sense as N1 kills. I was the shot that night. I know and acknowledge he has a good scum game but Agent Sparkles was also very town and the mechanics suggest he's town. RC being town heavily implies he's reading titus correctly and she and grundy are also obvious town. From that alone, there has to be one scum cop from your pov.

Firmly leaving your vote on RC, who's never getting lynched today, isn't helping anyone. Vote Navy if not Mathblade, but an RC vote is not going to do anything when there's 1 day to deadline left.

[MathBlade]

...I have been offline and my three are Kelvin Navy Alban.

Just to be clear, the fantasy that you are trying to spin is that all three scum claimed Doctor? And that Mutton, who initially claimed Cop, actually switched his claim to also be Doctor?

The absurdity of this post alone is almost grounds enough for lynching you.

I am not trying to "spin" anything. Those are my scumreads.

Those reads make no sense. Why would Mutton fake to ensure the optimal lynch was always in the scum pool? If Mutton's scum, it makes more sense his buddies are cops than doctors.

This was already asked and answered.

He forgot his fake claim or was playing suboptimally.

People don't always play optimally.