Micro 729: C-C9 Mafia | Game Over

[Papa Zito]

(he says, dreading engagement)

[Gorkington]

i would need a lot more convincing to lynch chamber today.

youre telling me hes obscure and im telling you thats probably the least compelling evidence you could throw at my face for him being scum.
theres a difference between having a positive outlook on someone and defending someone against attacks you feel are unfair.
i would defend nullreads if i think the pushes on them suck. it doesnt strike me as unlikely that chamber would too.

[Gorkington]

VOTE: tenshii
okay i think we should lynch tenshii while hes on VLA so he cant defend himself.

[mykonian]

Buddying btd. That's been going on from before:

I don't think any of this makes BTD scum and am confused by those assertions. If he believes he has a breaking strategy, other than communicating it more clearly, he's playing as he should be.

@BTD: You should start engaging the game from other angles bud, we are lynching and you want to be part of that.

You are forcing him to prove it by calling him scum for believing it. What else do you expect him to do?

What? I'm not advocating for the strategy, I'm advocating for him to engage the game. I'm not happy that he's not engaging the game. I just don't think being minimalist in engaging the game is scummy when you are advocating a strategy that depends on town roles remaining hidden.

One could have a townread on btd. People see things differently. However, when pressed on something that I see as explicitly scummy from btd, chamber avoids it altogether, yet posts how he sees btd as being entirely reasonable and townie. There's no doubt, there's not even the consideration how btd's defense of chamber makes sense from town. It's not discussed, it's avoided. It makes no sense to me unless chamber knows he's right and got stuck in trying to defend a townie which is somewhat in line with him.

[Gorkington]

theres no where in those posts that chamber calls him townie.

[mykonian]

have you seen chamber be anywhere near that understanding anywhere in this game? About anyone?

Hence:

You've barely posted at all and are now posting a V/lA for 40% of the remaining time. I'm tempted to just lynch you if you are going to be even less active during that period.

Compare this with the comradery chamber shows for btd:

@BTD: You should start engaging the game from other angles bud, we are lynching and you want to be part of that.

[Gorkington]

myko you should stop overselling your reads if youre town here.

because the reasoning youre pushing is consistently lukewarm at best and dishonest at worst and it leaves me wondering how you could possibly be this confident that someone is scum from what youre pushing.

pushing stuff like "chamber is buddying btd" isnt really compelling because chamber doesnt really have any reason to buddy btd. btd isnt a threat in this game. you could argue that zito is buddying me right now, but i dont really think that buddying is a great general tell?

like, you could argue that chamber is whiteknighting btd to generate content, i could at least understand where youre coming from on that. but this buddying angle just.. sucks?

p-edit: youre comparing him defending a nullread against attacks he perceives as bad (by people hes generally scumreading?) and poking him to try to get him to generate content that isnt theorycrafting vs him talking about people who are scumreading him and poking him. the difference is pretty clearly contextual and im pretty sure you should understand that difference.

[Papa Zito]

I dunno, that seems like a very apples to handgrenades comparison myko. To me at least chamber's been pretty clear on his BTD stance and while I don't agree with it I see where he's coming from. Encouraging another player to engage seems a pretty townie thing to do so I'm really ??? on this.

[Gorkington]

btd has theorycrafted and thats it.

tenshii has been calling chamber scum every post and has been pushing it kind of awkwardly/badly.
youve been calling chamber scum every post and have been kind of pushing it in a kind of unfair way.

its not really shocking to me that the treatment you two get vs btd is different.
i imagine if someone made a bad push on me or zito right now, chamber would probably also respond by picking at it.

[mykonian]

like, you could argue that chamber is whiteknighting btd to generate content, i could at least understand where youre coming from on that.

Semantics.

The defense of another player makes no sense and leaves holes. Pick your words how how to call it being scummy, it is scummy.


Like I say, I don't even mind that people have different reads.

Realeo, it looks as though Mykonian is worse here.

Mykonian seemed to be pushing Chamber at first simply for posting about theory and a possible breaking strategy (and there is one) in RVS. This does not imply scum. Instead, posting about breaking strategies is a lot more likely to come from Town. If you are Town and discover a breaking strategy, you want to say it in order to win. If you are scum, you would keep it to yourself in order to stop Town from using it against you.

I may go into more detail later.

Either way, we are No Lynching today and tomorrow.

I pressed chamber about the one thing btd says about the game at hand, the single exception to his playstyle of noncommitting, and how in my opinion the only reason to make that exception is that he can in a roundabout way defend himself from zito by taking chambers side early game against me. Not a single word is said about it by chamber when I asked repeated, he posts about btd, but avoids the critical bit time after time. He can't explain it yet doesn't want it to change his approach to btd, keeps being cordial. And he's never been cordial all game.

So in the face of a challenge to his relations with a certain player, chamber neither faces it, nor adapts his stance. He just ignores it. Only the third time a lame "well I don't see that as being so strange, w/e" comes out of chamber, after I voted him.

How fake do you want a read to be before you vote for it?

[Gorkington]

Not a single word is said about it by chamber when I asked repeated, he posts about btd, but avoids the critical bit time after time

[quote="mykonian"[Only if he believes your particular brand (mind you, terribly oldfashioned, texas justice/assassins in the palace inspired), and btd is a newbie. You could happily play the nightgame similar and still actually discuss the game if you thought that cops were less likely to give themselves away than scum, something which is way more natural to me. The only discussion of the actual game at hand that btd has done, is defending himself by discussing you.

And this specific choice of topic doesn't bother you at all.[/quote]his response to this was that he didnt understand what you meant.

I'm bothered that he doesn't discuss people in the game. You aren't, you applaud that he doesn't (or at least this I infer). you are wrong, but whatever. However, he doesnt follow this through: he does discuss one interaction, a breach of your intended strategy. Now why would he do that... Well he discusses you and defends you that you were supposed to talk theory: the very thing he himself is being attacked on by Zito.

You cannot be oblivious to the ulterior motive, it should stick out to you like a sore thumb as he deviates from what you would consider ideal play.

like just because something stands out to you, doesnt mean it does to anyone else?
if you made this post at me, i would probably have missed your so-called "smoking gun" that youre now claiming that chamber is ignoring intentionally because its apparently damning for both of them?
its just such an abstract angle to be pushing to say that hes scum.
are you saying him and btd are scum together and chamber is trying to avoid what you think should be an obvious scumtell by btd that he agreed with chamber because it allowed him to defend himself?
or are you saying that chamber is scum on his own because he didnt address you saying that?
or are you saying that btd is scum on his own because he asserted you were scummier than chamber because it was self-serving?
or are you just saying that both of them are scummy for being self-serving with what they chose to engage here?

why is this so unbelievably likely to you to be coming from scum?
i just dont get it?
like this is the sort of thing that MAYBE means something, but how in the world could you be confident about it when there are so many factors that could be at play here? so many different possibilities for why someone chooses to act on something? especially with someone who is so intentionally obscure with his thought process.
it really just reads like youre picking at the slightest thing and blowing it up into something bigger than it actually is and its kind of frustrating?

[Gorkington]

oh god formatting why.

[Quilford]

Yo, I've caught up and I want to lynch mykonian. This is apparently very trendy atm

[Gorkington]

like i really struggle to believe that you dont understand that context matters with how people react to certain players and in this case OMGUS is clearly a thing and OMGUS is not something AI at all.

[Quilford]

HOWEVER, it is also midnight and I need to wake up early tomorrow. So I'm gonna let the fresh-off-the-pan steak that is my thoughts on the gamestate rest for a little bit before I start cutting it up and jamming it into your unwilling little mouths!!

With love,


Quil

[Papa Zito]

Gork can you redo that one I got lost.

[Gorkington]

its mostly myko's fault for creating such a complex and inaccessible set of conditions for his super confident damning reads on chamber/btd
while also expecting that it should be obvious to anyone else following along. :/

[mykonian]

that chamber is ignoring intentionally because its apparently damning for both of them?

It could be damning for his read. Could be, he could happily have tried to incorporate it into his btd view. He could straight up have said the first time that he really didn't care and it was nothing. Yet he chose to answer every time, but avoided the very point.

or are you saying that chamber is scum on his own because he didnt address you saying that?

Yes. Well, the weird duality between replying and not talking about the point I think is crucial and ask him about.

or are you saying that btd is scum on his own because he asserted you were scummier than chamber because it was self-serving?

Well.. I don't think it makes sense for them to be a scumpair.

like i really struggle to believe that you dont understand that context matters with how people react to certain players and in this case OMGUS is clearly a thing and OMGUS is not something AI at all.

I keep throwing context at you and you choose to ignore it!

Chamber in this game is not a friendly guy. (context)
He's understanding about one person. (specific)
He defends said person (context), who happens to be compatible with his approach to the game (context)
Said person has a particular exception (specific) to overall playstyle where he discusses nobody (context)
When pressed on that, chamber does reply in positive words about btd (context) but avoids the specific exception of btd (specific)

Yet you reply to me that chamber doesn't call btd town and how it's no buddying, but whiteknighting. How an example of chamber being antagonistic in this game is just about one player and that tenshii is different from btd. I KNOW.

[mykonian]

its mostly myko's fault for creating such a complex and inaccessible set of conditions for his super confident damning reads on chamber/btd
while also expecting that it should be obvious to anyone else following along. :/

well I wrote it in schematics then, I keep throwing quotes at you to explain, but you keep talking about stuff that has nothing to do with it :/ Who cares if the word is buddying or not. It's a fake townread that when it came under pressure avoided said pressure in stead of dealing with it in any way. It's not complex, it's very simple. Scum fakes a read, and one could see. That's what I keep trying to point out to you, just see!

[Gorkington]

it sounded like he didnt get it?
ie: he said he didnt get it?

youre acting like chamber poking at YOUR PUSH. YOURS. AS IN YOU. as in the person he thinks is scum. on someone. is going to get the same terms of parsing as someone who comes in, calls chamber scum a bunch for weak reasons and then says hes not going to be around anymore. sorry. your context is wrong.

[Realeo]

Myko. Let me stop you there.

So your entire case is that Chamber is being double standard with btd and tenshii (and probably me?) and since btd is getting the softer treatement, that suggests Chamber being soft with his partner, BTD, right?

[mykonian]

Chamber isn't dumb. Zito responds to that very btd's post, gets that it's bad and why. Yet I can ask chamber till worlds end and didn't get an answer out of him.

Instead, posting about breaking strategies is a lot more likely to come from Town. If you are Town and discover a breaking strategy, you want to say it in order to win. If you are scum, you would keep it to yourself in order to stop Town from using it against you. I may go into more detail later.

There's absolutely nothing self-serving in this paragraph whatsoever.

and. this. doesn't. bother. you. at. all.

[mykonian]

Myko. Let me stop you there.

So your entire case is that Chamber is being double standard with btd and tenshii (and probably me?) and since btd is getting the softer treatement, that suggests Chamber being soft with his partner, BTD, right?

No, it's that when he's asked about a specific oddity about btd afterwards (see post above), he doesn't want to consider it to hold on to his townread.

[chamber]

I've never claimed to have a town read on BTD? I just think the attacks on him have been unfounded. If I give you the benefit of the doubt for a moment, and I suspect this is the last time I will do so this game, you were being very obtuse in how you talked about it. You didn't talk about him being self serving, you talked about a contradiction in my thoughts that apparently arose from him interacting with the game once and me not addressing it. Him talking more about theorycrafting and why it's good isn't a meaningful non-theory interaction. I still don't really understand your initial point as you said it.

[chamber]

Chamber in this game is not a friendly guy. (context)

I also disagree with this. I think the only person I've started openly unfriendly with is tenshii, and that's because his level of posting(quality not just quantity) + then announcing a 4 day absence legitimately upsets me.