Mini 554 - Mafia in Vollville - Over!!

[Guardian]

Adel, what's my notable reaction?

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Votecount #17

Guardian - 4 (opie, Incognito, Adel, Jitsu)

opie - 3 (Oman, ChaosOmega, pickemgenius)
Jitsu - 2 (Patrick, Guardian)
Xyltixlm - 1 (Matt_S)
Matt_S - 1 (Xylthixlm)

Not voting - 1 (Erg0)

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline for D1: Saturday March 1, 10:55AM GMT+10
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[Guardian]

Thinking about the last page with a clearer mind...

Both Jitsu and Adel still seem very scummy.

Jitsu went from leaning slightly pro-town on me to finding, imo, a rather spurious reason to (OMGUS) vote me. At worst, I made a mistake in bringing up that I was confused about how Adel "knew" I was town. I don't see how Jitsu draws the conclusion that I am scum in any way.

Adel then votes me for... no reason? And doesn't explain at all how she "knows" I am town now that it has been brought into the spotlight.

I don't like their votes at all. opie's vote on me, irrc, was from his overreaching that he was found very suspicious for. opie, you still feel good about that vote?

Incog's vote on me is the only one I see as making a bit of sense. Doesn't mean he is town, but if he is scum at least he is trying to fake it well.

I need to re-read.

[Adel]

Adel, what's my notable reaction?

no reaction followed by over-reaction once someone else brout it up.

[Guardian]

You're going to need to be clearer. What did I not react to, and what did I over react to, and how was my reaction at all an over-reaction?

[opie]

Okay so I re-read the cases against Jitsu and the response and the back and forth. I understand Erg0's orginal case against him and why it would raise some supicions. I think Jitsu responded reasonably enough, such that I'm not sure he is all that worthy of a vote at this time. The back and forth between Jitsu and Guardian seems to be just that. Back and forth. Noise. I don't feel like either really advanced anything new other than contributing to a headache. Of Guardian I will say that, as Jitsu noted, Guardian's change of attitude to the Jitsu wagon between Post 307 and Post 359. I know he did a re-read but what I noted between those two posts is that the Jitsu wagon started to pick up more steam.

More recently, the major thing that Guardian added to the case against Jitsu is his "major point" in Post 390. Which I believe is the "other pro-town players" analysis. To me this adds little to the case. I get the feeling that Guardian is trying desperately to find something that he can exploit to make a case out of.

With regard to Jitsu, I agree with Patrick that Jitsu seems to constantly assert that he is innocent/pro-town. Even after Patrick pointed this out.

I'm really suprised by Adel's vote in Post 409. I thought that Adel's vote would stay on me until my death.

Post 426, is another in a line of Guardian finding those suspicious who find him suspicious. Now he's added Adel to the pile.

Yes, Guardian I still feel good about my vote.

[Guardian]

opie, if I was "trying desperately to find something that he can exploit to make a case out of" why would I attack Jitsu and not you?

[Adel]

opie, if I was "trying desperately to find something that he can exploit to make a case out of" why would I attack Jitsu and not you?

because you know that he is town, and you wanted to only give his wagon a slight push without having your vote on it.

[opie]

I don't know. Actually, I'm not sure what the point is your making here.

What I'm saying is that you jumped on the Jitsu wagon, engaged in a series of back and forths, and then parse out this "other pro-town players" line. You call it a major point and I don't find it convincing. Seems like you are trying to make a "major point" out of little.

[Guardian]

You are premising that I am trying to use a bad case to railroad a townie.

In making this case, you also are premising that you, opie, are a townie.

If you and Jitsu are both townies, it would have been both much easier AND more consistent with my previous play to just keep my vote on you.

Why, as scum, would I make a change in stance that would both be harder for me to achieve AND appear less consistent?

PPE: Adel, care to explain why you are answering opie's questions for him and thereby defending him?

[Adel]

because I'm trying to figure out if you are distancinging yourself from opie or Jitsu. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Guardian]

I'm growing increasingly suspicious of you Adel; you hadn't mentioned Jitsu as a scum suspect at all until... that post.

And until you voted me, you'd said you were "sure I was town". I'm having a hard time figuring out what is going on in your head and how it could possibly have pro-town motivations.

[Adel]

Why I think Guardian is scum:
1. followed my lead early on opie
2. abandoned the opie wagon when it looked probable that opie would be the lynch
3. when I made the post stating that I know that Guardian is town, he didn't respond to it until other players did. As a townie he would've immediately challanged it. Now he is using it as evidence against me. Situational, and scummy.
4. His inconsistant reaction to players making statements that may infer that they know others people's alignments. I have, Incognito has, and Jitsu has.
5. Guardian has been scum in two of our previous games together, and I have a strong intuitive suspicion of him which is at least partially based upon experience.

[Guardian]

Why I'm not scum:

1. followed my lead early on opie

Are you saying your case was crap-logic? Was finding opie suspicious suspicious?

2. abandoned the opie wagon when it looked probable that opie would be the lynch

Yeah, I abandoned it, at least temporarily -- I thought we were a bit too narrow sighted. You disagree?

3. when I made the post stating that I know that Guardian is town, he didn't respond to it until other players did. As a townie he would've immediately challanged it. Now he is using it as evidence against me. Situational, and scummy.

I wasn't sure HOW to respond to it. Part of me wondered if you were a one way mason or some crap, some part of me wondered if you were just using game theory to point to me as "def town", and part of me wondered if you were scum. And I *did* respond to you when you universally endorsed me -- I asked you if you were serious. When you said you were, and made explicit that you somehow knew I was town, I didn't know what to do.

Adel, you love little mafia tricks, but gambits designed to get odd reactions... GET odd reactions, regardless of alignment. I'm *still* unsure if somehow you still do have information I'm town and are just probing me!

4. His inconsistant reaction to players making statements that may infer that they know others people's alignments. I have, Incognito has, and Jitsu has.

I don't understand this point so I can't respond.

5. Guardian has been scum in two of our previous games together, and I have a strong intuitive suspicion of him which is at least partially based upon experience.

And in either of those games, did you figure out I was scum? Also, in how many games in which I was town have you identified me as scum? Sharing a partial meta is more than slightly deceptive. In my experience, Adel is pretty inconsistent at determining my alignment.

[Adel]

Also, in how many games in which I was town have you identified me as scum?

0

Sharing a partial meta is more than slightly deceptive. In my experience, Adel is pretty inconsistent at determining my alignment.

I hammered you as scum on day 2 in mioni 455
You nk'd me immediately upon replacing in in Monks and Masons

Is there one that I am forgetting or something?

[Guardian]

Adel, how about Big Love mafia?

And in Mini 455, MeMe had to beg you to hammer me, when I fake claimed cop and was counterclaimed?

[Guardian]

Also -- why not respond to the rest of my points? They are good?

[Adel]

damn it, I'm getting into a typing contest with Guardian. I'm afraid that this may end up damaging the signal:noise ratio.

The rest of your points are not good, but I want to allow other players (including you scumbuddies) to throw in their two cents. I know what you are trying to do here: drown out the case against you by getting a series of wall-of-words tl;dr posts between us.

This is a day 1.

My case is there against you, and you've responded to them. I would prefer to let the other plaers read what is there and arrive at their own decision or ask other questions if needed.

[Guardian]

The rest of your points are not good, but I want to allow other players (including you scumbuddies) to throw in their two cents. I know what you are trying to do here: drown out the case against you by getting a series of wall-of-words tl;dr posts between us.

I've gone from "you know I'm town" to "other players (including your scumbuddies)" in the span of one page?

And me trying to get you to engage in conversation with me over this is a sneaky attempt to drown out your case? And you won't respond to my counterpoints?

I want not only to convince others that your case is wrong, but to convince you, if you are town, that it is wrong. And us being silent isn't going to accomplish that.

[Oman]

Adel, how about Big Love mafia?

Eww. Please don't mention that game.

[Jitsu]

Guardian: I think Adel's voting you because your past couple posts have been terrible. You've just been stumbling over yourself and alternating between backing Adel 100% and suggesting Adel is not helping the town.

I'm keeping my vote where it is, but I'm more suspicious of Guardian. You've just made a lot of posts that strike me the wrong way.

Why are you keeping your vote where it is even though you're more suspicious of Guardian?

[Incognito]

I'm glad people are finally seeing the light about Guardian.

Adel, I'm interested in understanding the logic you used to come up with the content from this post. Because your view of me there stands in direct contradiction to your previous view of me seen here.

Oman, please respond to this post here please.

[Adel]

Incognito: am I voting for you, or otherwise pushing your wagon? No, you don't seem that scummy to me right now. You are, however, a plausible scum companion of a couple of people I do find scummy. If there was other considerable evidence indicating that you were scum I would be all over you.

[Incognito]

Okay.

Is it just me or is anyone else getting lurker vibes from Oman?

[Adel]

he does that regardless of alignment.

[Incognito]

I disagree. I've played with him previously in Newbie 506, and he was more than active within that thread while being aligned on the side of the town.