Micro 729: C-C9 Mafia | Game Over

[Edosurist]

No, the part where I talk about who could be myko's partner. I honestly don't understand your scumread here.

I asked for an explanation, you said I gave no new thoughts. I showed you where I had a new thought and had asked for some feedback on it.

[chamber]

It's not my responsibility to convince you that you are scum. Of course I'll never do that.

[Edosurist]

Yeah, but by voting me you're making the myko lynch less likely. I guess you think it's bust now anyway?

[chamber]

I still think hes most likely deadline lynch. I'd like to see things happen before deadline on him, but there isn't the pressure there with gork running about doing his own thing on quil, so I'm returning to what i was doing before gork voted.

[Gorkington]

The part where you create a false dichotomy between me and myko?

do you think thats something that town doesnt have a tendency to do?
or is there something specific about the way hes presenting this that you dont like? seems kind of easy to dismiss all of what hes saying as just problematic on the basis of it being a dichotomy, especially since it could just be a feeling.

[Gorkington]

@Mars - Yes, I think one is scum, more likely myko.

can you talk a little more about where your head at is on myko?
why specifically do you feel like hes more likely scum than not?
is it literally just wagon momentum?

I'm not really the kind of player who stifles his doubts as town.

if you were having doubts why not unvote or try to poke at things more?
youre not really giving me the impression of someone who feels worried and it kind of makes me feel like the thought was entirely throwaway in a weird way?

a bunch of "seedy" players have come off vla and have done some other stuff.
do you have updated thoughts on them?
can you rank them from most "seedy" to least "seedy"?

[chamber]

The part where you create a false dichotomy between me and myko?

do you think thats something that town doesnt have a tendency to do?
or is there something specific about the way hes presenting this that you dont like? seems kind of easy to dismiss all of what hes saying as just problematic on the basis of it being a dichotomy, especially since it could just be a feeling.

I think its something someone who's inexperienced might be somewhat likely to think as town, but town with any real amount of experience (and this guys been on site for 5 years, haven't checked number of games player) realize that town on town attacks happen all of the time, and that it's a very convenient thing to create false dichotomies between them. His bloodlust is also a big issue for me. It seems to have no focus, which again in my mind is a quality of scum. Finally I feel like if he were reading the game for the first time in 2 days he'd have been more likely to quote a post he found interesting, or respond to a specific point. His summation suggests hes been keeping up the whole time but just not posting. I think passive observation like that is also a scum tell.

[Gorkington]

realize that town on town attacks happen all of the time, and that it's a very convenient thing to create false dichotomies between them

do you never get that feeling that an interaction between two slots is weird in a way that makes you feel like theres scum in one of the two slots?
even if it can be town on town, that doesnt detract from the feeling you might get if that makes sense?
i feel like this isnt a particularly good point (especially since ive played towngames recently where i had similar thoughts).

Finally I feel like if he were reading the game for the first time in 2 days he'd have been more likely to quote a post he found interesting, or respond to a specific point. His summation suggests hes been keeping up the whole time but just not posting. I think passive observation like that is also a scum tell.

this is kind of resonant though.

Also chamber doesn't like to vote early and often, which I'm sure he'll say before I can actually post this.

youve played with chamber before then based on this yes?
can you talk a little about why youre feeling like his play is weirding you out?

Unless BTD comes up with his numbers and reads in his next post, I'd be fine compromising there. I kinda want a flip more than anything else at the moment, particularly in chamber/myko to get that sorted out.

it sounded like BTD was like.. one of your strongest townreads? can you talk about why youre okay with this now? are you really that apathetic with the gamestate?

Anybody who thinks BTD is scum looks bad for it in my eyes. I don't see scum motivation for what he's doing when he's continually receiving flack for it. If he was scum, he would've dropped it already.

mars mentioned that BTD's scumgame is equally theorycraft-focused, does that change your feelings about his slot in general?
if its something that hes comfortable with doing as scum, would he abandon it under a little pressure?

[Gorkington]

last quote probably isnt worth addressing tbh @edo.

[chamber]

do you never get that feeling that an interaction between two slots is weird in a way that makes you feel like theres scum in one of the two slots?
even if it can be town on town, that doesnt detract from the feeling you might get if that makes sense?
i feel like this isnt a particularly good point (especially since ive played towngames recently where i had similar thoughts).

Maybe when I was new, not in a long time though. If I feel something is off I seek to find out why I feel that way, and that tends to me believing one or the other (or both) is scum (and perhaps I'm wrong). Just stopping at that stage seems strange to me.

[chamber]

tends to lead to me*

[Gorkington]

would rather talk more about this once ive poked edos a little more tbh.

[chamber]

That's fine.

[Draynth]

Day 1, Votecount 12

BTD6_Maker (3):

Papa Zito, Mykonian, Mars Argo

(L-2)

Mykonian (2): Edosurist, Quilford
Chamber (1): Tenshii
Quilford (1): Gorkington
Edosurist (1): Chamber

No Lynch (1):

BTD6_Maker

Not Voting (0):

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-07-22 00:00:00)[/area]

*If I ever make a mistake in a VC please don't hesitate to let me know!

[mykonian]

Because the myko wagon's been stalled out most of the day, I think either myko's scum and their partner is pushing a separate lynch (Zito) or hasn't been around to do so (Tenshii, BTD, Realeo/Mars). Zito's been pretty town in my book, Tenshii!scum's basically laid down a chainsaw on chamber the entire game, BTD's become myko's new lynch target, and Mars is helping move momentum away from myko. To me that suggests Tenshii or Mars would have to be myko's partner, then Zito next.

Alternatively, myko is town, in which case maybe scum is chamber/BTD are scum. Does that sound about right?

No, this makes no sense whatsoever.

For one, there's no lynch wagon, so why make assumptions about my allignment and go from there. Also hard to ignore that one line of thought keeps you busy, which is rather confirmation driven. You are always going to end up with the result you want.

And it's pretty silly to point out my wagon as stalled, while this game on a whole has seen very little movement and wagons at all. Now, it's my experience that scum have the ability to make games more volatile (you always feel when you are in multiball, for example), by how easy larger wagons form, I'd hazard a guess that scum could be more lurky or more stubborn. But it says very little here, I think, it doesn't help you narrow down anything. Scum could have the same incentives and not find the same opportunities for example. I should put it differently: it doesn't work to read the absence of what scum would want to do, even when I expect it.

This is a very silly tunnel to stick your head into. Have a read on me or not, don't try to pin on me specifically how the game is going.

mars mentioned that BTD's scumgame is equally theorycraft-focused, does that change your feelings about his slot in general?

I didn't misread that then. It feels like he went one way with the evidence, then the other way with the discussion. He acts scummy. He has a history of it as scum. Why aren't we lynching him on the spot? What's with the lame response?

[Gorkington]

btd if youre town here you need to get your shit together.
im not particularly inclined to defend you if you promise shit and arent following through on it, especially when the stuff youve been promising for ages is the same stuff youre using as an excuse to not actually scumhunt.

[Gorkington]

actually lets make this into a game because games are fun!
its called "btd if you make one more post saying "oh man these numbers are looking good" without actually posting the numbers and without actually pushing any reads then you get to die"-the-game.
sounds fun right?

[Quilford]

Busy day, sorry. Be here tomorrow

[chamber]

actually lets make this into a game because games are fun!
its called "btd if you make one more post saying "oh man these numbers are looking good" without actually posting the numbers and without actually pushing any reads then you get to die"-the-game.
sounds fun right?

I'm willing to one up this. I don't want to see one or the other at this point. I want both.

[Gorkington]

Busy day, sorry. Be here tomorrow

i cannot forgive you. especially since you have outstanding questions to answer from me and my questions are frankly more important than your life.

I'm willing to one up this. I don't want to see one or the other at this point. I want both.

show-off.

[Quilford]

haha well ur lucky coz im here now

[Quilford]

I'm not really the kind of player who stifles his doubts as town.

if you were having doubts why not unvote or try to poke at things more?
youre not really giving me the impression of someone who feels worried and it kind of makes me feel like the thought was entirely throwaway in a weird way?

hmm yeah i just feel a bit odd about engaging with myko because i don't super feel personally attached to him yet, i think he's likely to be scum but in a kind of detached kind of way, usually i get fired up about lynching people and prod them a lot if they start biting back at me lmao and myko hasn't done that. also i have this not-very-productive egotistic worry that we'll lynch someone i've been wavering on, and if i'm off the wagon i won't get any 'cred' for the lynch if they're scum, so i like to kind of phrase things in a way that kind of tries to coordinate a collective backing off if there is to be one. hence why i expressed my genuine feeling that i was cooling on a myko lynch but in a tentative way to see if other people were feeling it too so that the lynch wouldn't go through without me haha i am fully aware that this is not a great attitude to have

a bunch of "seedy" players have come off vla and have done some other stuff.
do you have updated thoughts on them?
can you rank them from most "seedy" to least "seedy"?

Uh, realeo wasn't originally on my seedy list but I still like Mars Argo's entrance, he seems focused and purposeful with his focus on BTD.

I kind of am suspicious of Tenshii, he's kind of the opposite right now, jumping between chamber, BTD and you in his latest burst of activity. I don't like his post #528 for saying that chamber is sitting well in his book despite the fact he can't imagine three of chamber's posts coming from town at all—those seem like mutually exclusive positions to hold imo, and his play overall, as epitomised in this post, seems to be characterised by a weird mix of forcefulness and reticence that I personally associate with scum who are feeling defensive but still want to be appeasing. Funnily enough though I did kind of like his catch on you in #526, it's the only thing that's giving me any real sense of pause on lynching him at the moment (but not much).

Wrt RTD, all his content to date could just as easily come from scum as town imo, I agree with chamber that he needs to both post the numbers and his reads in his next post, because we're simply not going to no lynch at this stage. I think the reads will enable an actual assessment of his alignment from me. Other people are clearly more confident in drawing conclusions about his alignment based on their suspicions around the fact that it's been like 10 days and he's still sticking to his breaking strategy schtick; good for them, but I need actual attempts at scumhunting to work with, myself.

Tomorrow I am going to look back at a game in which I caught Zito-scum to remind myself of what was throwing me off there; as I might have already mentioned, I have long been terrible at reading people with the kind of succinct yet deliberately opaque playstyle that Zito seems to favour. I kind of have a hunch that he's more likely to be town here, because I feel like I can detect a continuous mindset informing the opacity here whereas when he was scum I'm pretty sure I was tipped off by the fact that although the lights were on, nobody really seemed to be home, to completely misuse that analogy. But I definitely will check that game. Note to self: do that.

I agree with the consensus that Edosurist's return has been a bit disappointing. I still don't realllllly mind his posts, I feel like he's being genuine enough, I feel like he's defending himself in quite an organic and relaxed way, but I guess I would like to see a bit more meat, especially with regard to chamber who he said he expected to post more on. I'm also sympathetic to his speculation on scumteams in post #569, because I've been doing a bit of that internally myself. Overall I just find his posting fairly relatable I guess.

Hmm yeah I dunno, I'm feeling a bit ill at ease generally. When I'm town, I think I thrive on being attacked, usually people get good town vibes off how I defend myself and act generally when I'm under pressure, I also think it encourages me to sort my priorities out and really get stuck into my top scumread. I haven't really come under much pressure though so the converse is that I kind of feel like skating by because I'm pretty lazy otherwise haha. I appreciate you turning your focus on me for that reason. Examine me harder! Harder!! Make me make good cases!!!!!



ty

[Quilford]

I kind of feel like I have more to say but I grow tired and my thoughts are falling apart a bit, sorry.

Gork I had a question for you tho. Do you have any strong townreads?

[Gorkington]

ive had strong townreads a few times during the game, not so much at the moment.
i can go over some generalities of townreads ive had over the course of the game if you want?

[Papa Zito]

actually lets make this into a game because games are fun!
its called "btd if you make one more post saying "oh man these numbers are looking good" without actually posting the numbers and without actually pushing any reads then you get to die"-the-game.
sounds fun right?

Your presence on the wagon would give this that little added oomph.