Open 691: Jungle Republic (ENDGAME)

[Tails]

Well, I was going to vote Gen X, but that avatar convinced me not to.

Vote TheBrie

For not confirming.

[Tails]

It's like you know each other...

[Tails]

Well, I was going to vote Gen X, but that avatar convinced me not to.

Vote TheBrie

For not confirming.

Hannah should've gotten at least 3 votes against Adam. Ken was an early fave but then his edits went to shit.

I'll just pretend I know what you're talking about.

[Tails]

I want to know where Hellfire was getting PT from. I feel this is being largely ignored and might be important.

[Tails]

I have my own ideas, but I want to hear from him first.

[Tails]

Unvote

Vote Almost50

Something's not right. Can't explain what.

[Tails]

Cool, I was right. Almost is super flailing.

[Tails]

Cool, I was right. Almost is super flailing.

Do you even know what flailing is? Or are you just "monkey see monkey do" kind of player?

Show me where I was "flailing" por favor.

It's what you're doing right now. The first seriously announced votes land and you freak right the frak out. When all you really do is rail against those voting you, you're flailing.

[Tails]

You're going in loops. If something triggers a "gut" SR for you then the same thing should trigger the same feeling coming from anyone. It's not like you are using "meta" to justify it either (and you actually can't, because you don't have enough experience with me, so..)

Anyway, keep the vote. It doesn't worry me. I've said my piece though, and you can rest assured you will be caught sooner than later. Lynch me or shoot me (not sure which of the scum groups you belong to) and you will still be caught.

This is an example of why Almost is scum. First part is him flailing. Throwing out some BS about gut having to be universal or some crap. Gut is gut. Normally there's more to it than one action. Then he says something about meta before saying "you don't have meta on me because we haven't played together so nah!". He came dangerously close to claiming there, and that was the equivalent of saying that you can't be caught because the other person never saw you commit the murder.

Then he follows it up in the second part with false bravado. He's shook scum.

[Tails]

They jumped on the largest wagon (my wagon) when I tried to move the game forward and asked players to actually play the game.

This assumes that his being the largest wagon was the reason for the vote (It wasn't.). There's also a lot of emphasis placed on how it's because he was trying to move the game forward (he wasn't.). The fact is that Almost is glory hogging and saying he's town because he yells about the deadline a lot. It doesn't matter that town players normally don't make a big deal until about 48 hours away or use that to talk about how town they are. For Almost, the resume is more important than actually doing anything with the time. He's more interested in appearance than actually scumhunting.

The Day is only 7 days long, so it serves Scum more to keep the game stagnant and then get a deadline wagon going that will actually shock the Town because it seems many a player didn't even notice we had a shortened Day phase.

1.) It's only been 2 days dude. We're not pressed for time yet.
2.) I'm not sure how that best serves scum here, as both factions would be just as interested to scumhunt each other. Apathy cuts both ways in multiball.
3.) No one's voting you because they're scared you're too active. Like...really?

Up until (and including) yours, the votes on me were mere RVS votes. Their votes (both of them) they claim are serious votes, so those are the votes to actually analyze.

Why can't you analyze the RVS votes? Couldn't scum have used RVS as a reason to jump on as well? By saying the vote was serious, both Paul and I drew attention to ourselves. Why would we do so as scum?

[Tails]

Just in general, Almost has been too tryhard in his posting and focused entirely on proving how "town" he is. He's not looking for scum. He laser focused on Missle for a non-reason and pushed that further than anyone else with a vote. Nothing outside of that other than the freak out when crap got real. I noticed something else that might point to what faction specifically he might be, because he does seem to be preoccupied with one over the other, but I'm kinda tired now, so tomorrow.

[Tails]

I can't see anything that indicates A50 was thinking more of one scum group than the other, so I'd like to hear about that.

Two 100% Scums here (opposite factions though). Not

MY

fault if Town fails to build on it after I get lynched.

I'll say it again: One of Tails/NotTheRealPaul is a WW, the other is Mafia. 100% (hint to Town Seer)

Without getting into the immediate problems here (questioning vs. exclaiming, scumhunting vs freakout), there is a slight lean towards finding werewolves. Town's really not going to care at this point, or really come to this sort of conclusion. Almost is trying to make it look like he's hunting for both factions, but with his request of the seer, it's pretty obvious he's mainly concerned about the one. Wolves are not going to think about doing this, and town is really not going to care one over the other at this point in the game, given as they want both dead and flips to work with.

I can say from my limited experience with A50 that he's a fairly calm player who doesn't panic when found out as scum. But that's one game, so it's likely not worth much.

And him panicking here didn't set off any alarms?

[Tails]

@GenX: Hold steady on Almost. I think we're getting some very interesting reactions from Brie and others.

[Tails]

You're going in loops. If something triggers a "gut" SR for you then the same thing should trigger the same feeling coming from anyone. It's not like you are using "meta" to justify it either (and you actually can't, because you don't have enough experience with me, so..)

Anyway, keep the vote. It doesn't worry me. I've said my piece though, and you can rest assured you will be caught sooner than later. Lynch me or shoot me (not sure which of the scum groups you belong to) and you will still be caught.

This is an example of why Almost is scum. First part is him flailing. Throwing out some BS about gut having to be universal or some crap. Gut is gut. Normally there's more to it than one action. Then he says something about meta before saying "you don't have meta on me because we haven't played together so nah!". He came dangerously close to claiming there, and that was the equivalent of saying that you can't be caught because the other person never saw you commit the murder.

Then he follows it up in the second part with false bravado. He's shook scum.

And THAT is EXACTLY why I brought up meta. Everyone who played with Scum!Me knows I'm MUCH better than to be caught on D1, and even more so than to be "shook". You go check ANY of my Scum games before you further embarrass yourself.

Scum angry at being caught for the wrong reason.

[Tails]

Well, considering there is NO COP in this game, who else would you have me ask for their attention??

How about no one? Why don't you just scumhunt regularly and let the seer do their job?

We only have ONE investigative, and I'm narrowing down their pool for the first investigation. Now if we lynch one of you and they flip WOLF then the other is Mafia and no need for the Seer to check them.

Except directing investigations is scummy af.

Also, Town DOES in fact care. The Werewolves are the faction with the NK. Unless we can direct them to kill the Mafia (which we can't, both because we don't know who the Mafia are AND because you can't leash a Werewolf) then we aim to stop the NKs and take control of all the killings (which can only be though lynches at that point).

Town's in a different conundrum either way. Wolves have a NK and are dangerous in that way, but a nightless with mafia is not exactly better. Either way, it's best to just try to get a flip and work from there. The best strategy can be figured out on a later day with more information. Only the scum factions have it in their best interest to push for a certain outcome.

This is fact makes me lean WW on YOU, because you're worried I'm hunting specifically for YOUR faction, which in turn makes YOU hunting for MAFIA rather than WWs.

When did I express any sort of concern about that? I simply pointed out that you were more focused on finding werewolves than mafia, which is further supported by this very post, where you say it's more important to find wolves. I just pointed out that you were most likely to be mafia due to the fact you were focusing more on a single faction. Otherwise, I really don't care, as I'm lynching scum either way.

[Tails]

Guys; let's lynch Tails. If this doesn't flip a WEREWOLF I get speed lynched on D2. Any takers?

Normally I'd wonder if scum Almost would make this. I don't think he would as wolf, since it would be too risky, as he'd know he'd lose. However, I think he'd try it as mafia and rely on no one following through. Again, primary focus on werewolves here.

[Tails]

A50 seems to be making more sense than Tails here. To me at least. But if we lynch town today and the WW kill a townie tonight, that puts at at 2-3-5. But then with this much scum in the game, there's a reasonable chance of hitting scum at random.

So I'm not quite ready to lynch Tails, though I'm slightly suspicious of him.

This is a scumpost. The fence is largely set in Brie's butt at this point.

[Tails]

Guys; let's lynch Tails. If this doesn't flip a WEREWOLF I get speed lynched on D2. Any takers?

This guy seems legit. everything he's saying makes sense, his wagon seems scum driven and I like his style.
VOTE: Tails

Why don't you try this again with more thought.

[Tails]

I like Almost better.

[Tails]

...
Fine.

Unvote
Vote Brie

[Tails]

I still reserve the right to hang him later, though.

[Tails]

I think 116 is a bluff, but whatever.

[Tails]

Why Brie over dunker?

Brie was trying awfully hard to distance from Almost when everything she claims to know about him as a player should be causing her to vote him. She outright stated that Almost was not playing like he does as town, yet she refused to vote him. She then continues to be noncommittal while avoiding the wagon. Also look at her fencesit on me. She's actively avoiding controversial wagons.

[Tails]

As for Dunker, he could be scum or just lazy town. There's no way of knowing until he posts more. I just feel stronger overall on Brie and Almost.

[Tails]

Why Brie over dunker?

Brie was trying awfully hard to distance from Almost when everything she claims to know about him as a player should be causing her to vote him. She outright stated that Almost was not playing like he does as town, yet she refused to vote him. She then continues to be noncommittal while avoiding the wagon. Also look at her fencesit on me. She's actively avoiding controversial wagons.

I never said I knew anything about Almost's town play. I only know him as scum, and he is pretty good as scum. I couldn't pick him from his play, only from logic. So I have no idea what he is this time.

I must've misread. I thought you said something about his town play, which was why I didn't think that action tracked. I still don't like your overall reaction to the wagons, though.

[Tails]

Almost i think youre just omgusing

No.I.am.NOT. If I was, you know YOU should be my biggest OMGUS target, and you know why too. This is a genuine read, and everytime Tail posts I see new evidence he is indeed caught Scum. Why would I put my neck on the line if I wasn't 100% sure?

I've seen this 1v1 threat from scum so often now that I don't even blink at it. So yeah, not getting townpoints for this dude.

[Tails]

Hey, Titus, what's the odds that Generation X is scum here?

TBH, I would recommend the Seer checks that slot after we flip Tails a Werewolf.

This PR guiding is not a town trait.

[Tails]

Okay with a50 SR

a50 is town

Why?

[Tails]

Have you played with A50 before?

No.

[Tails]

Why is there such strong resistance to even vote Tails?

Because I'm town.

Compare that to the ease I got to L-2 for practically nothing.

Again, scum angry because caught for the wrong reason.

Compare my play with Tails play thus far and try to decide how come both him and Paul found it so easy to add a 4th and a 5th vote on my wagon, but it's much harder to find a third vote to place on Tails.

Why do the placement of votes on your wagon matter? If I remember, I was the first serious vote on the wagon. If I was just scum trying to join an easy wagon, wouldn't I have just done so earlier under the guise of RVS? Why wait until you actually ran your mouth about Hellfire (I admit wanting to know about his statement too, but I also mentioned that I could see a possible town reason for the statement.)? I outright said that it was mostly a gut thing that I was having a hard time putting into words at that moment? If you're town, why didn't you try to start up a line of dialogue to figure out what those reasons might be? For all intents and purposes, it looks like someone finally placed a serious vote on you, which contained actually weight, and you freaked the frak out.

[Tails]

Brie says she wants a Tails case before she votes with Almost. Almost doesn't give a case. Brie votes me because "she has a town read on Almost"?

Brie is not scum with Almost, but she's definitely buddying him.

[Tails]

Have you played with Almost, Wisdom?

[Tails]

Is this the norm? Because there's a lot from this interaction that just doesn't sit right with me.

[Tails]

I'll give you at least an ingame day and keep my distance from him. You do see the problem with Brie, though? We lynch that, and afterwards, I'll reevaluate and go from there.

[Tails]

I like Gen X for town. Not really sure about Eurotrash.

[Tails]

Their reads have mostly coincided with mine, and they seem to be seeing a lot of the same things. That's mostly coming from the non-Gamma head, though. I do wish they were more active, but I'm not sure that's an indicator of their alignment.

[Tails]

Maybe. That still gives them a pass for me atm.

[Tails]

You're scum?

[Tails]

I'm really not sure how I'm supposed to take this...

[Tails]

Scum do and do not do things for all kinds of reasons.
I think it's scums best interest of scum to get on a town wagon there's a solid reason for. In this situation, it might reflect badly on them if Tails happens to flip town.

This seems to suggest a town read from Brie. Yet she's still voting me. This after fencesitting between on me and Almost for most of the day, then deciding to vote me after asking Almost for reasons and not getting any because "he's a townread".

[Tails]

I'm really not feeling Gen X, Wisdom.

[Tails]

Along with that is a little misrepping and a few unreasonable town reads.

What reads did you find unreasonable?

[Tails]

I know. Why aren't you voting her?

[Tails]

I'm not doing Gen X, Wisdom. At least not today. You get a wagon going on one of your other scumreads, though, and I'm onboard. Otherwise, I'd really like to lynch Brie today.

[Tails]

Dunker may or may not be Scum. If he is, he is MAFIA.

How are you coming to this conclusion?

Her reaction and sheep of me hints she might be Seer herself.

If she's not, the Seer needs to check in this wagon (Gen C and Wisdom in particular).

But I thought that I was supposed to be a werewolf? Why ask the seer to check GenX or Wisdom and not me?

In other words, I think 2 WWs + 2/3 Mafia are on TheBrie right now. Tails/Wisdom/Generation X/NotTheRealPaul/Vedith/Dunkerdoodles

So you think 4 out of 5 scum just decided to randomly get together and push a lynch that was going nowhere at deadline instead of just, I don't know, hopping on existing wagons with momentum? Okay, who's the lone town player on that wagon?

[Tails]

Wis, we were scums together twice or thrice.. I know how manipulative you are. Prove me wrong and lay off TheBrie. UNVOTE NOW.

Why would scum Wisdom even listen to you? Heck, why would town Wisdom? This is essentially you saying "I know you're manipulative as scum, Wisdom. So do as I say or I'll vote you.". I mean, what is this crap?

[Tails]

OK.. I'll give you a little space.. go check the same game I referred both Titus and Euro to. TheBrie was Town and she actually made it to endgame. Go check her play and tell me how different it is from hers here.

Are you saying that her play there is different from her play here or that it's the same? Because it sounds like you're dismantling your own reads.

[Tails]

You haven't looked at the quality of votes on the Brie wagon but merely making excuses because new.

Okay. Break down the votes then.

[Tails]

Brie's ISO is full of openness and accountability, which are the last thing scum want to do here.

Accountability? Where?

[Tails]

@Titus: Get off Wisdom and stop defending scum!

[Tails]

Dunker may or may not be Scum. If he is, he is MAFIA.

If she's not, the Seer needs to check in this wagon (Gen C and Wisdom in particular).

But I thought that I was supposed to be a werewolf? Why ask the seer to check GenX or Wisdom and not me?

Because I was already voting you, smarty! You are a WW and your p is one of them.

Again, if you think I'm werewolf, wouldn't you want the seer to investigate me?

Dunker may or may not be Scum. If he is, he is MAFIA.

In other words, I think 2 WWs + 2/3 Mafia are on TheBrie right now. Tails/Wisdom/Generation X/NotTheRealPaul/Vedith/Dunkerdoodles

So you think 4 out of 5 scum just decided to randomly get together and push a lynch that was going nowhere at deadline instead of just, I don't know, hopping on existing wagons with momentum? Okay, who's the lone town player on that wagon?

Reading problems? Skimming much, perhaps??

There are 6 people on the wagon. You just said you think 4 of them are scum. I messed up on the number of town because brain, but the point still holds. You think that all but 1 of the scum just randomly got together and decided to push a nowhere wagon instead of hopping on existing ones? Why?

P-edit: Quit dancing around my posts, Almost.

[Tails]

Again, if you think I'm werewolf, wouldn't you want the seer to investigate me?

I.was.voting.you.numbhead. You were my designated lynch of the day. I don't know about you, but we usually ask the Cop/Seer to check the LIVING players.

Did I get dayvigged and not know it?

[Tails]

No, the point does not still hold. The fact is you're not reading for comprehension or you would have noticed I already answered before you asked. And who's dancing around whom's posts? You're the one who's acting overly obtuse.

6 people on Brie wagon. 5 scum total in the game. You just said 4 scum on the wagon. So, according to you, the majority of scum in the game just decided to get together and push a non-existent wagon instead of doing what scums do and hide on bigger ones. Why?

[Tails]

That made me laugh.
But that excuse is still crap.

[Tails]

When I have trouble sorting the game, I try to follow my town reads when they make good sense.

So why did you follow Almost when he couldn't give a case on me?

[Tails]

So I'm going to be busy for the rest of the day and won't be on before deadline. I would like it if we could lynch Brie by then.

[Tails]

Vote MMM

[Tails]

I'm generally against giving scum any more info than they need.

[Tails]

That reminded me there was something I wanted to address but completely forgot to.

Vote MMM

For what reason are you voting me? Did you not have any better scum reads at the time you voted me than a completely inactive slot? Or did you just want to see where it goes? Or is it about something else entirely?

A little of column A, little of column B. Your slot was the only one that hadn't posted anything substantial, and I wanted to see what shook out. I'm still not convinced you're town, though. And I'm too preoccupied by rl matters to decide if there's a better place to move my vote. Maybe later tonight or Monday.

[Tails]

@Vedith: What about Titus/Almost read TvS?

@Almost: I'm not sure I see the benefit of trying to push Wisdom as a counter if Titus was Brie's partner. Wisdom was not a good counterwagon, and Titus is smart enough as scum to see that it would never go through. She would have bussed in that situation over pushing Wisdom. The only way Titus-scum pushes Wisdom over Brie is if she thought Brie really was town and was trying to avoid the blowback. I mean, it's still not a smart move, and she could have easily continued to push Dunker for the same results. Titus as town is hardheaded enough to try to go for a Wisdom lynch, because she's not thinking of another agenda and there is a real playstyle clash there.
tldr - I really don't see what Titus has to gain as scum by pushing Wisdom, and I think she's game minded enough as scum to avoid that push.

[Tails]

And why would she push Wisdom instead of any of the other potential counter wagons? Even Titus is intelligent enough as scum to know that wagon wouldn't go anywhere. There's no way that action would have saved her partner.

[Tails]

I think I might be interested in a Vedith vote. I just want his answer to my question first.

[Tails]

Titus wouldn't defend that hard without additional knowledge to the situation (Unless it was just an ego war with Wisdom, of course).

Given the replace out, I'm going with ego war.

What's your stand on the situation again?

Almost got buddied and Titus had a stick up her butt.

[Tails]

he's def not mafia since he prefers to go after them instead of WW

Why does that mean he can't be Mafia?
He doesn't seem to care who to go for (or at least claims). So why can't he be Mafia trying to manipulate people voting away from Mafia?

This is blatantly untrue.

[Tails]

I'm all for leashing the wolf, but I'd like to have a plan for directing the wolf's shot. I think it needs to be a group effort and not given to any one person. Also, GD gets auto-lynched if she doesn't shoot who we say.

Unvote
Vote Vedith

[Tails]

How about the Seer makes the decision on who I kill? Or just have all players vote.

I'd prefer just having a majority. I don't even trust the shot to Wisdom by himself, and he's the towniest player in the game outside of myself.

[Tails]

Read List (Matina Style):

Tails
Vedith
Dunker
NTRP
MMM
Bins
Wisdom
Math
Gingham

OR (Ranger Style):

{Tails, Vedith, Dunker, NTRP}
{MMM, Bins}
{Wisdom, Math}
{Gingham}

How did I suddenly become your top town read? And why is Paul a townread as well? I thought you were scumreading both of us?

[Tails]

You know what? Fuck it! Guys. I'm the Seer, and Bins is NOT WW. Now let's lynch the WW so I can become your IC and live to end game.

Why investigate Bins and not me or Paul?

[Tails]

@Mod: My vote is on Vedith.

I want to look back over some stuff Vedith wrote, but I'm too tired tonight. I'm doing anything else with my vote until then.

[Tails]

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Tails]

Explain the Wisdom townread? Or have you?

I thought it was obvious that Wisdom was town. Is there a reason you think this is not his town game?

Questioning the Seer inspect is weird to me UNLESS you doubt the seer claim (do you???). What good is telling A50 his choice doesn't make sense? Unless you are just hounding on play here, then fine, carry on

I have no reason to doubt the claim. I just find the actions to be...strange. But that seems to be nothing new with Almost.

[Tails]

Okay, not going to be able to get to what I wanted until Thursday. Going to be really busy irl today and tomorrow.

Reminder for myself to look over these:

VOTE: NotTheRealPaul
I'm okay with being vigged tonight. It takes out the bad suspicion on me.

If NTRP flips scum, the last 2 will remain in

MMM
Tails
Bins
Dunkerdoodles

I just want to add, if the seer is in one of these

MMM
Tails
Bins
Dunkerdoodles

And NTRP flips town, then tomorrow lynch Wisdom.

[Tails]

Still haven't looked over the Vedith stuff. Caught food poisoning 2 days ago and still recovering. I plan on trying to get to it tomorrow.

[Tails]

I looked back at the Vedith stuff with a clear head, and yeah...nothing there. I was too tired to realize how small the player list is now. Could be something if scum, but most likely nothing.

And holy cow! I get knocked out by a bug for a few days and you guys go bonkers already? And on Math?!?

Wisdom, you better give me the best scum case of your life, because this Titus vendetta is getting real old real fast. Just because someone annoys you does not mean they're scum. And so far, all I've seen is annoyance. And so help me, if you try to break out that whole "I lynched both WW" thing, I'll remind you that A.) I caught Brie and begged you to get on the wagon and B.) Gingham outed herself before we could see the effectiveness of any push from you. So far, you're my strongest townread in this game, and I like it, because you're actually in cooperative town mode. But stop going after my second strongest townread! Mommy and Daddy are fighting, and scum are hard pushing this wagon. Or did you think it was a coincidence that it built so quickly?

But I assume you've been so preoccupied, you actually missed some of the actual scummy leaps around the wagon.

Vote MMM

And Almost, just because you're conf. town does not mean you get to peddle nonsense. Writing incoherently does not equal scum. And there's no contradiction when circumstances change.

[Tails]

Gingham outed herself before we could see the effectiveness of any push from you

lmao
I pushed the slot all d1 and d2 and got her to L-1 before she outted

Maybe I'm just still so weirded out by Gen X's actions that I'm not sure how to take all that. And we have no idea what would have happened if anything changed. Like Gen X not replacing out. Or Gingham fighting back. Or wet feet. Or any of a number of things. I still think that the claim threw off a lot that could have been learned by the wagon. But I will admit I might not be the best one to judge that whole situation.

[Tails]

Or did you think it was a coincidence that it built so quickly?

wagon speed has no bearing on alignment; common fallacy

But sometimes it can tell you a whole lot. The way that wagon built up did not feel right. Methinks someone wants to get rid of Mommy. And then maybe Daddy will be next.

[Tails]

if mommy and daddy are a mafioso family then gladly

Are you saying you're mafia? Because you're Daddy.

[Tails]

How about we quit calling me mommy. That'd be awesome.

Because I am not female.

*glares*

Titus was, and you inherited the slot. And since this is really about what happened d1... Plus, I like using that analogy sometimes, if for no other reason than to quote Spider-Man.

[Tails]

right ok i really don't want to play with this math slot so can we please get rid of it

Heavy suggestion scum read is not genuine.

i want you to explain to me because its the reason im scumreading you but if youre 100% certian im scum cool enjoy the bad vote

Heavy suggestion scum read is OMGUS and pulled out of thin air.

Thinking back on the last day, there is also every reason to believe that Bins may just be very strategic in how he's approaching things anyway. It'd explain a lot of him trying to keep the Wisdom and Math options open.

[Tails]

Spider-Man is awesome but pay attention to the gender field dude. I won't call you a woman too.

I normally try to, although sometimes my attention lapses and I make an assumption based off something stupid. As for the last, I've messed with that in different alts, so I don't mind as much as long is it doesn't become an obnoxious habit.

[Tails]

also tails I'm a chick but meh pronouns to me

I have no idea why I thought you were a dude...

[Tails]

MMM wants Math..

Actually, MMM doesn't. Look back at the vote again. That move was after being asked, and I don't get MMM wanting that wagon at all. He's just going with the flow.

Note: Wisdom had suspected both NTRP & Vedith, so if they should be joining a wagon that us NOT on their buddy. If they lynch Scum then they're likely Town. Yes?

I think this is why we keep butting heads. You have a very theoretical mechanical view of the game that's never worked in practice. Ever. I don't think I've ever seen scum be so precise in their voting patterns.

[Tails]

Bin's reads seem a little too convenient. And I'm not sure if they entirely match his stances.

Dunker's #840 is the first post that doesn't follow the idk or lost persona he's displayed so far. I'm wondering what happened to go from potential lolhammer to seriously wanting to lynch Math. It feels desperate. Something in the status quo has changed, and I don't think it's the votes spreading out.

[Tails]

MMM's Math vote progression:

oh god you guys are using player meta now

Opposed to wagon.

eh guess I wouldn't strongly oppose a Math wagon but I also wanna hear what they have to say

Starts to become a bit more wishy-washy and leaves a door open to jump onto the wagon. Fencesits like crazy though, and there's a bit of hesitance. MMM comes off as feeling like he's in a precarious position here.

Hmmm ok sure
VOTE: Math
L-1 if I didn't miscount

Almost gives a case relying on what looks like contradictions. MMM immediately jumps ship. Note that it has nothing to do with MMM's stance on Math, but rather Almost's. MMM is following the momentum onto Math while hiding behind Almost's reasoning.

I'm going to take another look at the wagon. MMM's reaction makes me think there's at least one more scum there. Which makes sense given the speed in which it built.

[Tails]

Only other potential scum I see on the wagon is Bins. I've been struggling with reading him, because I'm not sure whether he's just annoying or whether there are actual issues with his play. And I really don't want to scumread him based on playstyle.

MMM is my strongest scumread. Other scum is in {Paul, Vedith}. Dunker's #840 is the only thing that really gives me pause. Otherwise, he just reads like new town.

[Tails]

MMM's Math vote progression:

oh god you guys are using player meta now

Opposed to wagon.

Wrong. I'm opposed to using player meta.

You were showing opposition prior to this post. I just used this as a baseline to show how quickly your stance changed.

eh guess I wouldn't strongly oppose a Math wagon but I also wanna hear what they have to say

Starts to become a bit more wishy-washy and leaves a door open to jump onto the wagon. Fencesits like crazy though, and there's a bit of hesitance. MMM comes off as feeling like he's in a precarious position here.

I didn't point out for nothing on d2 that Math was a null read for me.

That does not change the fencesitty nature of the post or that you positioned yourself to be ready to leap on Math if you need to.

Hmmm ok sure
VOTE: Math
L-1 if I didn't miscount

Almost gives a case relying on what looks like contradictions. MMM immediately jumps ship. Note that it has nothing to do with MMM's stance on Math, but rather Almost's. MMM is following the momentum onto Math while hiding behind Almost's reasoning.

Because I can't sheep a wagon I have my own case on?
Sheep =/= Scum

It's not that you sheeped the wagon. It's how you did so.

[Tails]

Bin's reads seem a little too convenient. And I'm not sure if they entirely match his stances.

Er, convenient how? I'm basically saying Wisdom is on the completely wrong track.

You're townreading those posting a lot (Wisdom/Paul) and scumreading those not posting a lot. You suddenly have Math as strong town, but you were just voting him. And MMM is in the middle, like you have no stance on him at all. So yeah. Convenient.

Also still and Chick.

I'm going to go curl up in a corner and die now.

[Tails]

MMM's Math vote progression:

oh god you guys are using player meta now

Opposed to wagon.

Wrong. I'm opposed to using player meta.

You were showing opposition prior to this post. I just used this as a baseline to show how quickly your stance changed.

I may have done so but not in that post.
I hate player meta but when it's used it tends to give really accurate results which is part of the reason I didn't resist too much to being swayed.

So essentially, you're trying to defeat my point with a nitpick, while still admitting my point was valid? Okay.

I see good reasoning for a vote, I vote. I have literally no clue what's scummy or concerning about this at all.

But you had just said that you wanted to hear from Math first. What happened with that?

[Tails]

@NTRP/Tails: Pick one of Math/Bins

No. You can't make me. MMM lynch is love. MMM lynch is life.

[Tails]

like wisdom if you're actually town you'll realize vedith was the scum vote on my wagon and tails was the scum stance off it

thanks

Here, let me translate this for you: "Guys! Tails is not posting as much as I am! He must be scum! Look! He hasn't been around since my wagon started taking off. It's all a scum plot! Scum! Scum!"

How'd I do?

I mean, it's not like I've given my thoughts on why MMM is scum or anything. Nope. Just a scum ploy to keep my hands clean from a wagon I don't even know is happening. Yep.

And you know what happened when I was active and you were around? You tried to convince me Wisdom was scum. What a coinkydink, huh?

[Tails]

Almost50

Wisdom
MMM
MathBlade

Dunkerdoodles
NotTheRealPaul

Tails
Vedith

So Wisdom rose higher, MMM started getting pressure and is suddenly town, Math has fallen down, probably because of not posting as much now and a little more vulnerable. Also, look, Paul is not town now, for some reason. Why is that? It's like your reads are predicated on the game state or something. I bet if I was able to post as much as I was the first two days, you'd have me right below Wisdom.

[Tails]

Only other potential scum I see on the wagon is Bins. I've been struggling with reading him, because I'm not sure whether he's just annoying or whether there are actual issues with his play. And I really don't want to scumread him based on playstyle.

^

Knowing I'm town, how I am not to read this as the scummiest post in the game? The last of Tails posts are all about gaining suspicion on me without actually voting me.

Or I'm struggling with reading you, because there's a tiny voice in the back of my head that keeps telling me this might be a playstyle thing and you're just bad. Granted, that voice is getting tinier, but it's still there. So I express my anxieties, and apparently, I'm just some sort of two tailed scum mastermind. And the whole point was me trying to figure out why MMM was acting so cagey about Math. A scum mate on the wagon made sense, but it could be other reasons. The point being, MMM scum read is strong, and wagon analysis kinda points to Bins being another scum, but as a player I questioned that.

But who needs nuance anyway?

[Tails]

Best friend Bins! Lets put our alignments aside right now!
Talk to me about Tails as I have an opinion I want to share with you!
Woo me on Tails!

Can we kill this tomorrow?

[Tails]

im not scumreading low activity and wouldnt call your activity low to me

So I'm just supposed to take it as coincidence that players move down your reads list every time they start posting less?

like saying "youre bad town or scum" isnt helpful lol like good opinion there tails

That discredit.

Vedith what do you think of these posts then

Why are you appealing to your biggest scumread?

[Tails]

like youre basically saying everyone in this game state is considered scum so when i scumread them its convenient? like idk i dont understand how my reads are convenient

That's not what I'm saying. At all. I'm saying that your reads are matching the game state to reflect where everyone else is starting to lean, and there's zero explanation to the shift in reads. Math goes from scumread to high townread when wagon dissolves to low townread when not mentioned again? MMM goes from null to town for no reason when he gets suspicion? Paul goes from town to close to scum after a bit more suspicion is thrown his way? What?

[Tails]

I see good reasoning for a vote, I vote. I have literally no clue what's scummy or concerning about this at all.

But you had just said that you wanted to hear from Math first. What happened with that?

Because I thought A50's case was convincing enough. Like. DUH. It's a no brainer really.

So Almost yelling "contradictions!" was enough to want you to put Math at L-1 without waiting for a response?

[Tails]

Dunker is a hammer hazard. L-1 should be treated as potentially wagon ending.

[Tails]

like youre basically saying everyone in this game state is considered scum so when i scumread them its convenient? like idk i dont understand how my reads are convenient

That's not what I'm saying. At all. I'm saying that your reads are matching the game state to reflect where everyone else is starting to lean, and there's zero explanation to the shift in reads. Math goes from scumread to high townread when wagon dissolves to low townread when not mentioned again? MMM goes from null to town for no reason when he gets suspicion? Paul goes from town to close to scum after a bit more suspicion is thrown his way? What?

You realize the wagon dissolved because Wisdom and I both changed our reads after Math made some town posts?

Nope. It dissolved after I pointed out how bad the wagon was and asked Wisdom to defend it. You left the wagon with your tail between your legs after Wisdom switched to you, and you were asking why he left the wagon the whole time. Then next time reads come around, *poof*, Math is magically high town.

[Tails]

That discredit.

that's almost word for word what you said?

my head that keeps telling me this might be a playstyle thing and you're just bad.

Are you, or are you not, trying to discredit my opinions?

[Tails]

Bad's me giving you the benefit of the doubt for why you were so interested in driving a wedge between town reads on d2, or for these change in reads that make no freaking sense. But, you're essentially positioning yourself into being a mini-Almost now, and you can't be at that level. You just can't. Bad was me making excuses of why you could be town, and I could just be wrong and missing something, but that's looking like it's not the case anymore.

That was me hoping that if you were town, that a dialogue could be opened through playstyle. That was not me discrediting anything you said. However, you're attacking what I'm saying and trying to twist it and discredit it. You're using when I said "bad" as a way to do that. Which is funny, because you didn't do that to Wisdom when he was disagreeing with you.

[Tails]

That's the first post I've actually really liked from you.

[Tails]

I'm really hating that we didn't go nightless...

@Wisdom: Can you explain the Paul town read to me? I'm not quite sure I followed that yesterday.

I agree with either Vedith or Dunkers today. I'm struggling a bit with my Dunkers read. He reads new town for the most part, but he seemed to come out with a definite agenda yesterday, and that concerns me. Also, since we're not in Mylo yet, I'm wondering whether it's better to lynch a stronger scum read or to just take care of a potential liability, since Dunker is likely to quickhammer regardless of alignment.

[Tails]

@Almost: I'm not sure I can get behind your 2 scum theory. The MMM wagon was near impossible to get, and I was sure going up to deadline that it meant he was scum. Compared to the earlier Math wagon, nobody wanted a piece of it, and that's what concerns me. I really can't understand why scum didn't push that harder. If there were 2 on the wagon, surely that would be the case. Unless you're implying that they were all early adopters, in which case, why didn't they bail when the wagon wasn't going anywhere? Even with 1 scum, which is probably more probable, that's a question that I'm having a hard time answering myself. And I really don't know why the MMM wagon was different.
Do you have any ideas? Maybe even compare it to the Math wagon. Maybe you can tell me what went on yesterday, because I haven't a clue.

[Tails]

@Wisdom: Can you explain the Paul town read to me? I'm not quite sure I followed that yesterday.

i dont remember what i said yesterday but he feels town

How so?

[Tails]

@Almost: True. I was just kinda weirded out by the whole thing, but I really hadn't taken the time to go back and look at the VC. I still find it strange that MMM couldn't get momentum, but the Math wagon went bonkers.

I'm hoping Wisdom talks to me about Paul some more, because I don't understand that. But otherwise, I'm fine with hammering. Consider this intent.

[Tails]

Going to make this quick, because work.

@Wisdom: Can you please tell me why you think Paul is town again? I was waiting for that yesterday, and I'd really like an answer. I have him as likely scum, and I'm just confused that we're differing on this read, and I don't know the reason why.

No quick voting today, please. I would like to actually get some things sorted out.

@Math: What's your Vedith read?

I'm going to spend what free time I have at work going back over Math's ISO. I still think Math is town, because Titus was super strong town for me. But I might be blinded by that initial read, and I want to double check and see how I feel on a readthrough. Right now, I'm PoE'd to {Vedith, Paul, Bins}, but I want to make sure that the basis of these reads are solid first. I'll try to post my conclusions tonight. Tomorrow at the latest.

[Tails]

I had some reasons why I thought she was town. But I realize that read may be old, so I'm reevaluating.

[Tails]

Hey. You're back to your opening bit.

[Tails]

Right now, I'm PoE'd to {Vedith, Paul, Bins},

this is literally insane to me considering this completely doesn't work as the scum team

Why not?

the fact you're ignoring both math and wisdom is just whaahtht

I'm reevaluating Math currently to see if my read still holds up. Wisdom is my strongest townread, and the one I'm most confident in. I'm still not sure why that is surprising or why you're determined to undermine that read at all costs.

[Tails]

@Tails can u explain ehy u think wisdom is town?

The Wisdom in this game is the easy to read version of his town self. Easygoing, but stubborn. He uses his aggressive tendencies, but he's not hyper-aggressive. He's asking questions in an attempt to game solve, and he's willing to talk and figure things out with others. It's seriously the easiest to get townread in the game.

The scum Wisdom I've seen always seems to play to some extreme. He's either super aggressive, in which case, you look at who he's pursuing, as that's likely a scum buddy (He likes to hyper bus.), or he's really placating, where he's actually just trying to blend in and not get in the way. He's not either here, so unless he's drastically revamped his scum game to match the best versions of his town games, he's town here.

[Tails]

Going to make this quick, because work.

@Wisdom: Can you please tell me why you think Paul is town again? I was waiting for that yesterday, and I'd really like an answer. I have him as likely scum, and I'm just confused that we're differing on this read, and I don't know the reason why.

No quick voting today, please. I would like to actually get some things sorted out.

@Math: What's your Vedith read?

I'm going to spend what free time I have at work going back over Math's ISO. I still think Math is town, because Titus was super strong town for me. But I might be blinded by that initial read, and I want to double check and see how I feel on a readthrough. Right now, I'm PoE'd to {Vedith, Paul, Bins}, but I want to make sure that the basis of these reads are solid first. I'll try to post my conclusions tonight. Tomorrow at the latest.

My Vedith read is meh.

Wisdom and Bins are obvScum could be scum with Vedith. I would rather focus on my strong scumreads than a weak one at this point because we need to lynch a scum or we lose.

I was just confused, because while you gave a strong scumread of Wisdom, you seemed to be more unsure of Paul and Bins. I thought it was strange that Vedith wasn't even a consideration there.

[Tails]

Confirmed Town always decides the lynch. I have my opinions but in LYLO the only way to go is confirmed Town says who we lynch.

I'm not going to just abdicate responsibility to Almost. We use this day to figure things out, and then we make a collective decision. No shortcuts.

[Tails]

Tails is more likely because of the constant "I'll check Vedith waaah!" then doesn't.

I never said anything of the sort. I've said I've wanted to vote you, but I've been focusing on stronger scumreads.

[Tails]

Just finished going back over the Math ISO. The few areas I had an issue with going into this actually weren't a problem after a second readthrough. Math has some awkward posts, but I get a sense that's an individual issue, not an alignment one. Titus was strong town for me, and I still have trouble seeing some of those actions coming from a scum slot. First, there's the fact that she told me to lay off Almost, when such an interaction would have caused a lot of confusion in thread if allowed to continue. Confusion that Titus-scum could have then capitalized on. Then there's the Wisdom vote. I really can't see that coming from Titus as scum. A Wisdom vote accomplishes nothing and does not push any particular agenda that Titus-scum would want to pursue. It would have been far easier for Titus-scum to stay on Dunker, and it would have helped out her endgame. A last minute Wisdom push based on a personality clash is short-sighted, and it doesn't fit with the meticulous nature I'd expect Titus to be displaying. There's also the quick wagon that appeared on Math. That looked incredibly scum driven, and I think scum just ended up being unlucky that Dunker didn't just quickhammer when he had the chance. I need to double check that, though. I do think at least one scum was on that quick buildup, and I'm surprised no one's gone back to give that wagon a look.

Also, going through that ISO reminded me how truly bad Bins's interactions were. I want to go back through there, because there are a few facts I want to double check, just in case I'm misremembering something.

[Tails]

@Wisdom: Please explain your Paul read. You keep ignoring this. It's not that hard.

[Tails]

Here, I'll help.

Paul is town because _____.

[Tails]

Who do you think is the scum on the wagon? Or are you not worrying about that yet?

[Tails]

Yeah, Bins's reversal on Math was atrocious. That slot is def. 100% scum.

[Tails]

I mean the progression is: Math vote "def scum" > Unvote > "I agree with you Wisdom. Math might be town." > "Math is super town. The towniest in the game besides Almost. Why was anyone voting for Math?"
Keep in mind, this is in the span of a page. There's about 12 hours, but it's a pretty quick reversal. The unvote only comes after Wisdom and Math vote her. She tries to placate Wisdom almost immediately by parroting his new Math read. By the next page, the Math read has gone from super scum to super town.

[Tails]

MathBlade / Wisdom / NotTheRealPaul {If these are my reads how tf has this been the two major wagons}

Wisdom is actually probably town and I let ~paranoia~ get to me.

Why didn't we lynch this immediately? She essentially switched reads on Math and then berated the wagon she was just on and helped push. Then she buddies up to Wisdom,

who is voting her

.

[Tails]

I'm right with you, but I want to hear from Wisdom first.

[Tails]

Paul townread. Why? Go.

[Tails]

also tails saying wisdom has been easy going this game is just what

Compared to hyper aggressive Wisdom? Absolutely. Comparatively, he's downright low key.

[Tails]

If Wisdom is scum, why hasn't he voted you, Bins?

[Tails]

i dont have a standard style as town or scum

Youre buddying me with bullshit

This is bull crap. I've seen you as town and as scum. Whether you like to admit it or not, you have patterns. I might have described it badly, because I'm trying to describe something nebulous that mind is processing, but this is your towngame and it was easy to spot.

[Tails]

Wisdom, this not giving reasons for your townread thing is starting to become really annoying.

[Tails]

It's been building. I wanted an answer last day phase.

[Tails]

Scum. Math is town.

[Tails]

Screw it.

Vote Bins

[Tails]

I really thought we'd have to give up Vedith there.

[Tails]

I really didn't think we'd be able to pull this one off. I was expecting town to PoE us. Best case was me making it to endgame with Wisdom and then getting lynched.

[Tails]

D2 was killer. Gingham revealed. Almost revealed. No more nks. That should have been it.

[Tails]

It also assumes town pays special attention to the dead's reads list.

[Tails]

I've never seen that happen.

[Tails]

That's okay. I'm used to it.

[Tails]

Titus stop.

[Tails]

It was a very good game. I enjoyed playing with everyone.

[Tails]

@MMM: It was way harder to lynch you than I thought.

[Tails]

[Tails]

Can't you guys just say "Good game" and continue on and be friends? I mean, I seriously thought we'd end up losing that one, and everyone played their hearts out.