Micro 729: C-C9 Mafia | Game Over

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Post Post #750 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:37 am

Post by chamber »

In post 746, Quilford wrote:
Quilford wrote:
In post 742, chamber wrote:
In post 740, Quilford wrote:Did you read my ? If so, what are your thoughts on it?
It's the worst post you've made?
Wtf
You're being a little bit dishonest if you said 'you can try and sell me on' a Tenshii lynch, despite the fact that the one other post where I have actually given reasoning for a Tenshii lynch was apparently, in your view, my worst ever.
I mean, to be clear, I meant in this game. But also I was trying to use it to sort you, I didn't expect you to actually convince me about tenshii, no.
In post 749, Quilford wrote:I am also surprised you are not seeing any of your own scum play in what Tenshii has been doing, chamber.
On one hand, I don't think they are remotely similar, on the other, I'd expect my faults as scum to be blindspots to me, that's probably why they are my faults as scum?
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Post Post #751 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:41 am

Post by mykonian »

In post 745, Papa Zito wrote:
In post 743, mykonian wrote:1st, the scumgame, I'm not sure why it was linked as an example of theory posting. There's none.
huh

What was the context (in this game) for that link? Who linked it and why?
mars. I'm pretty sure I've misread that post because I can't stop questioning it's meaning. Its also in a quote.
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Post Post #752 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:44 am

Post by Quilford »

chamber, he is pulling a classic scum move that you are also a fan of and only using his posts to respond to whatever has happened recently in thread. There is no continuity between what he says when he checks in one day and what he says when he checks in the next. It's almost like he has..... no reads. And yet, all his posting is trying to project the impression of someone who feels CONFIDENT and IMPORTANT. Arghhhhh
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Post Post #753 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:47 am

Post by Papa Zito »

Myko I'm assuming it's this post right:
In post 554, Mars Argo wrote:Here's a quick meta dive (don't groan), I did of BTD in one of his recent mafia games:
His ISO


He...
1) did talk a lot about the setup of the game (which is also very unique) and trying to figure out by the setup
2) by talking about the setup a lot he avoided talking about reads
3) lurked heavily and beetlejuiced a lot and reached his prod timers

From this, I have every reason to be fine with believing BTD entered this game trying to break it - but this isn't alignment indicative for him and is not going to steer me away from scumreading his low activity and his avoidance of talking about real reads.
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why did you link this game if he did 0 theorycrafting in it?
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Post Post #754 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:49 am

Post by Quilford »

In post 436, chamber wrote:
In post 430, Quilford wrote:Tenshii probably. BTD not too far a second.
Vote: Tenshii
In post 543, chamber wrote:Any reason for BTD over Tenshii?
chamber, what happened here? How did you lose so much faith in a Tenshii lynch?
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Post Post #755 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:52 am

Post by Quilford »

I've got to say, those two posts I quoted are possibly two of the most ironic in the entire game atm
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Post Post #756 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:54 am

Post by chamber »

You just made me do a lot of work wrt tenshii, and it's affirmed my stance.
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Post Post #757 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:57 am

Post by chamber »

In post 754, Quilford wrote:
In post 436, chamber wrote:
In post 430, Quilford wrote:Tenshii probably. BTD not too far a second.
Vote: Tenshii
In post 543, chamber wrote:Any reason for BTD over Tenshii?
chamber, what happened here? How did you lose so much faith in a Tenshii lynch?
I mean, I think both of those things have already been explained at their time in ways that make it clear I didn't have faith in a Tenshii lynch to start? Does the 2nd come off as me advocating for a Tenshii lynch to you?
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Post Post #758 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:00 am

Post by Quilford »

In post 757, chamber wrote:I mean, I think both of those things have already been explained at their time in ways that make it clear I didn't have faith in a Tenshii lynch to start? Does the 2nd come off as me advocating for a Tenshii lynch to you?
Yeah, uh, I really don't think they have at all. Can you spell it out for me?
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Post Post #759 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:03 am

Post by chamber »

Tenshii is still in the pool of lurkers I'm not going to cry over if they get lynched. This isn't the same as having faith in his lynch.

I wanted to see how the game and you acted with pressure on tenshii.

The 2nd is entirely me fishing for a very specific response from myko that he didn't give.
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Post Post #760 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:10 am

Post by Quilford »

In post 635, chamber wrote:I'm not remotely confident that he's scum. I am past caring. But I also think it's impossible to make a firm judgement of his alignment as long as he's playing as he currently is.
chamber, can you respond to the proposition that it is better to leave BTD until tomorrow when he will no longer have a plausible excuse for refusing to scumhunt?

And is the reason you're not presently voting someone you actually scumread that you don't think you will be able to swing a lynch on them at this late stage?
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Post Post #761 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:11 am

Post by Quilford »

I promise those are my last two questions to you for now.
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Post Post #762 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:13 am

Post by Quilford »

Gork, it is 2:30 am here but I am staying up so that I have a chance to talk to you. I hope this attempt to guilt you somehow makes you appear in-thread soon.
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Post Post #763 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:16 am

Post by chamber »

Myko is by far my strongest scum read and the game stagnated with my vote on him for like half the Day. I don't think it's going to happen without a lot of deadline pressure, I actually think a no lynch is most likely now, and if that happens I honestly think I'm just going to replace out. But also, there is an unfair bias against those that have posted a lot. They are for the most part people I trust to be competent, and this means leaving them alive had value especially when I'm not sufficiently sure of a read. Do you want an end game of edo tenshii and BTD? I don't. When things are muddy I'd just rather lynch someone who's not posting or who I think is bad. It gives good players more time to do things rather than useless ones. Your stance on BTD seems particularly bad to me for that reason.


How about actually giving feedback yourself?
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Post Post #764 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:32 am

Post by Quilford »

In post 763, chamber wrote:Do you want an end game of edo tenshii and BTD? I don't. When things are muddy I'd just rather lynch someone who's not posting or who I think is bad. It gives good players more time to do things rather than useless ones. Your stance on BTD seems particularly bad to me for that reason.
I'm sorry I'm not abandoning a wagon on my scumread that's two votes from a lynch to jump on a lurker who I think I will be able to assess the alignment of more accurately if he is left alive for one more day to no great cost at all. Rest assured that I will vote BTD if the only other option is a no lynch.

What feedback do you want?
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Post Post #765 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:34 am

Post by chamber »

You are asking a lot of questions, and I don't really follow the reason behind any of them. I give answers and then you let them dangle. Why did you ask any of them? I gather you have a town read on me. Even if you doubt it, this seems like a poor time to follow that doubt, surely you have some other aim?
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Post Post #766 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:35 am

Post by chamber »

And this didn't start as me asking for you to vote BTD, it started as the opposite of that.
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Post Post #767 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:36 am

Post by Mars Argo »

In post 1324, BTD6_maker wrote:
In post 1321, Realeo wrote:Just because someone say it's a bad idea, it doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
That person was you.

You yourself admitted that the hurt plan will only end up lynching someone many people scumread mildly but no one actually scumreads strongly, essentially a compromise. Indeed, you used it as a reaction test. This has no chance of working again and is overall anti-Town.

If compromise lynches were bad on Day 1, now in Day 3 with scum outnumbering Town they are even worse.

NKA may have useful information.

Are there scum on the kill list? This can be broken down into two questions:

1: Did Mafia put themselves on the kill list?

If so, when? If Hellfire is Mafia, they were on the kill list in both Day 1 and 2. It would seem that Mafia are more likely to put themselves on the list later on in the game as Mafia do not want to lose a member early on. Later on, they may be able to bank on the wolves not killing if they will lose for shooting Town. In Open 679, in which I was Mafia, I was on the Day 2 kill list and also the Day 3 kill list (I survived both times). Tere Mafia was trying to make me look unlikely to be Mafia while banking on the fact that I am unlikely to be killed. Of course, they could put Mafia on

Hellfire certainly seems an easier lynch in this game, which would seem to suggest that if Mafia put them on the list, they thought Hellfire was unlikely to die by Wolves (who presumably want to kill players they cannot easily lynch).

2: Are Wolves on the list?

This would obviously make them kill someone other than themselves. From a purely probabilistic perspective, Hellfire is more likely to be a wolf than Kmd, from lists alone. If the original list contained one wolf, and Mafia tried to change the list as little as possible, the wolf would likely be the only person alive from the original list in Day 3.

NKA suggests Hellfire as scum either way. It's not conclusive, but it certainly suggests Hellfire being scum.
In post 1339, BTD6_maker wrote:
In post 1338, Kmd4390 wrote:
Excuse me for using graphic term, but are you suggesting that werewolf is a jihadist whose only concern is killing everyone with them?

Werewolf is not ISIS, werewolf is Al Capone who is also self-interested including victory.
No, I'm suggesting that only two of us really know their strategy.
Only two of us really know their strategy, but the rest of us can at the very least make an educated guess.

Werewolves will not kill if they think they will lose the game. As such, if killing Town would lead to a Mafia win, Werewolves will only kill if they are very confident someone is Mafia. The Mafia know this. They can either put themselves on the list (which leaves a possibility of a Werewolf kill) or three non-Mafia (which may make those players seem less likely to be Mafia). The situation leads to WIFOM between the Mafia and the Wolves.

I know what the Mafia might be thinking in that situation because I was Mafia in Open 679, where that situation actually occurred. Mafia decided to change the list about and put three non-Mafia players. This is something to consider in the future.
uhm he did
he did a lot more in the town game and A LOT MORE AVOIDING GIVING READS in the town game
in the scum game he at least gave fake reads at the start(theres not a lot of theory at the start of oligarchy)
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Post Post #768 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:36 am

Post by Gorkington »

work is a thing but im here i guess.
whatsup.
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Post Post #769 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:43 am

Post by Gorkington »

In post 741, Papa Zito wrote:Gork I am not happy.
i dont know what i did
or didnt do
but i hope at some point you can forgive me.
D:
In post 721, Tenshii wrote:VOTE: No Lynch

It's impossible for a cop to die by the time cops out (D3) because of hypoing. It would only be possible because of a cop read or a lucky random night kill.
im really befaffled that tenshii's got a wagon growing on him/is being pushed and this is the only thing he pops in to mention. im trying to make heads or tails of it and i just dont understand why town or scum would do this.
>.>

i feel like im partially considering voting people based on who i would feel least guilty about being wrong over.
and thats probably stupid.
someone call me stupid.
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Post Post #770 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:48 am

Post by Quilford »

In post 765, chamber wrote:You are asking a lot of questions, and I don't really follow the reason behind any of them. I give answers and then you let them dangle. Why did you ask any of them? I gather you have a town read on me. Even if you doubt it, this seems like a poor time to follow that doubt, surely you have some other aim?
It's because no-one fucking else was here lmao
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Post Post #771 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:49 am

Post by Quilford »

Okay that's a bit facetious. I did want reasons why you felt so rock solid on Tenshii over BTD, and why you thought my post on Tenshii was bad, but I only literally 95% of the way through my questioning remembered your title.
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Post Post #772 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:50 am

Post by Gorkington »

quilford are you townreading myko.
mars are you townreading myko.
words why if so please.

i'll try to really bite into thinking about tenshii and btd tonight.
i'll have like 5 more minutes of lunchtime to look things over after i get food.
if youve got something important to poke my face over that you need an answer to before 4 hours from now, now's the time.
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Post Post #773 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:51 am

Post by Quilford »

But genuinely I was so bored during the day today, literally just Tenshii popped in to make one random fucking useless post, I'm a bit starved for interaction
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Post Post #774 (ISO) » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:52 am

Post by Quilford »

In post 772, Gorkington wrote:if youve got something important to poke my face over that you need an answer to before 4 hours from now, now's the time.
You asked me for the reasons why I was suddenly confident in a Tenshii vote. What is your response to my response?

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