Mini Normal 1929 - Game Over

[Ircher]

​​

Day 2 VC #1 (Unchanged)

Awesomeusername (0) -​​
WhyMafia (0) -
Steel (0) -
I​​o (0) -
Scorpious (0) -
Alban (0) -
MarioManiac4 (0) -
LlamaFluff (0) -
No Lynch (0) -
Not Voting (8) - Awesomeusername, Mulch, Alban, LlamaFluff, Scorpious, WhyMafia, MarioManiac4, Steel

Lynch Threshold

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline

Day 2 will end by August 5, 2017 5:30 PM EDT or in (expired on 2017-08-05 17:30:00).

Moderator Notes

Moderator V/LA July 24-28. Please address issues to Gamma Emerald during that time.
Have fun!
(VC edited by Ircher.)

Spoiler: Current Voting History

Day 2

Spoiler: Previous Voting History

Day 1

Awesomeusername: Scorpious (73) --> I am Innocent (205) --> (Null) (387) --> Vedith (496) --> (Null) (565) --> LlamaFluff (586) --> (Null) (597)

Vedith

: Carcalilly (88) --> Tchill13 (135) --> Steel (193) --> WhyMafia (455) --> Scorpious (459) --> Carcalilly (580) -->

Vedith (755)*

Lil Uzi Vert

(replaced by WhyMafia)

: MarioManiac4 (192) --> Steel (256)
WhyMafia

(replaced Lil Uzi Vert)

: Alban (460) --> Carcalilly (571) --> Vedith (588) --> Carcalilly (591) --> Vedith (727)
Steel: No Lynch (127) ==> No Lynch (182) --> Lil Uzi Vert (254) --> (Null) (272) --> Carcalilly (279) --> Scorpious (419) --> Vedith (442) --> (Null) (469) --> Vedith (545) --> LlamaFluff (537) --> Carcalilly (570)
Io: Steel (67) --> Io (132) --> (Null) (164) --> I am Innocent (204) --> MarioManiac4 (365) --> (Null) (428) --> Vedith (618) --> (Null) (724)
Scorpious: Lil Uzi Vert (99) --> (Null) (482) --> Vedith (587)
Alban: Vedith (104)

Tchill13

: Carcalilly (129) --> (Null) (147) --> Vedith (231) --> Scorpious (437) --> (Null) (475) --> Carcalilly (592)

Carcalilly

: MarioManiac4 (78) --> Vedith (90) --> Lil Uzi Vert (102) ==> Lil Uzi Vert (120) --> Io (133) --> Tchill13 (138) --> MarioManiac4 (170) --> Vedith (298) --> MarioManiac4 (377) --> Alban (602) --> Vedith (695)
MarioManiac4: Carcalilly (66) --> (Null) (157) --> Tchill13 (174) --> Scorpious (176) --> Steel (189) --> (Null) (289) --> MarioManiac4 (340) --> Vedith (345) --> Scorpious (405)
I am Innocent (

replaced by LlamaFluff

): Carcalilly (69)
LlamaFluff (

replaced I am Innocent

): Vedith (532)

Dawn

Awesomeusername: MarioManiac4 (7)

Vedith

: Tchill13 (13) --> Scorpious (24)

Tchill13

: MarioManiac4 (49)

Carcalilly

: Vedith (15) --> MarioManiac4 (19) --> Scorpious (30) --> MarioManiac4 (58)
MarioManiac4: Vedith (4) --> Carcalilly (50)

[Mulch]

UNVOTE:

I remember playing with Io. She will give long winding explanations about game mechanics and why and who is scum. I believe (but not sure) that she is logical, terse and concise when town.

Well thank you for calling me logical, but I don't really know if I would fall myself concise, I will make large posts if I need to get a point across.
Also I think the game mechanic talk was unique to that game if I recall because people weren't quite understanding them.

Frankly, I'm not really sure what the point in going over how people typically play helps. Like for example, I try to keep consistent play across whatever alignment I am and I'm pretty sure most people do that as to avoid scum slipping every time they are scum due to their meta.
Plus, the rules forbid Trust Tells and going over people's meta as town vs scum seems to be encroaching on breaking that rule.
Reguardless I've only played a full game with Alban, and maybe LUV and I am Innocent but I don't remember those games. Alban I remember does this kind of thing in all games if not most that I've played with him where he wants to talk about people's behavior.

Town

This should confirm me as town btw. THis is pocketing 101.

[WhyMafia]

Can someone tell me why Llama and Awesome are scum? I TR'ed both of em ;-;

Llama is fine except for this one post which dropped them in my reads like a tier alone: 714

What's wrong with that post though?

[WhyMafia]

UNVOTE:

I remember playing with Io. She will give long winding explanations about game mechanics and why and who is scum. I believe (but not sure) that she is logical, terse and concise when town.

Well thank you for calling me logical, but I don't really know if I would fall myself concise, I will make large posts if I need to get a point across.
Also I think the game mechanic talk was unique to that game if I recall because people weren't quite understanding them.

Frankly, I'm not really sure what the point in going over how people typically play helps. Like for example, I try to keep consistent play across whatever alignment I am and I'm pretty sure most people do that as to avoid scum slipping every time they are scum due to their meta.
Plus, the rules forbid Trust Tells and going over people's meta as town vs scum seems to be encroaching on breaking that rule.
Reguardless I've only played a full game with Alban, and maybe LUV and I am Innocent but I don't remember those games. Alban I remember does this kind of thing in all games if not most that I've played with him where he wants to talk about people's behavior.

Town

This should confirm me as town btw. THis is pocketing 101.

That's just WIFOM. Why are you so interested in proving yourself town? I believed that slot to be town .. but now I have my reservations

[WhyMafia]

I'm still convinced Alban is scum

[WhyMafia]

And not at all on Awesome. Can see Scorpius though

[Mulch]

Can someone tell me why Llama and Awesome are scum? I TR'ed both of em ;-;

Llama is fine except for this one post which dropped them in my reads like a tier alone: 714

What's wrong with that post though?

It's one of the most classic scum partners in a 1v1 posts. It's not neccecarily scummy in the traditional sense but by experience it's super hard for a scum partner to take a side when it's TvS wagons, and even for scum to take a side, so asking each to provide a bulletproof list is like super LAMIST in the sense: look at me, I'm so town, I'm gonna take all the arguements and weigh them against each other, AND it allows the scum to make a decision later so they don't need to commit, which is extra bad now that carc flipped scum.

Do you feel me?

[Mulch]

UNVOTE:

I remember playing with Io. She will give long winding explanations about game mechanics and why and who is scum. I believe (but not sure) that she is logical, terse and concise when town.

Well thank you for calling me logical, but I don't really know if I would fall myself concise, I will make large posts if I need to get a point across.
Also I think the game mechanic talk was unique to that game if I recall because people weren't quite understanding them.

Frankly, I'm not really sure what the point in going over how people typically play helps. Like for example, I try to keep consistent play across whatever alignment I am and I'm pretty sure most people do that as to avoid scum slipping every time they are scum due to their meta.
Plus, the rules forbid Trust Tells and going over people's meta as town vs scum seems to be encroaching on breaking that rule.
Reguardless I've only played a full game with Alban, and maybe LUV and I am Innocent but I don't remember those games. Alban I remember does this kind of thing in all games if not most that I've played with him where he wants to talk about people's behavior.

Town

This should confirm me as town btw. THis is pocketing 101.

That's just WIFOM. Why are you so interested in proving yourself town? I believed that slot to be town .. but now I have my reservations

Why do you think WhyMafia?

[Mulch]

I'm still convinced Alban is scum

Agreed.

[Mulch]

And not at all on Awesome. Can see Scorpius though

Per awesome: what do you think about the heding at the scummyness at EoD?

[Mulch]

Whymafia you are super obvious town through meta so I want you to work with me here. I would say 80% that your town right now.

[Mulch]

If llama is going to tunnel me today I am happy to engage but I think there is a high probability of townVtown. Much higher chance in Alb/Awesome/Scorp

[Mulch]

First things first: I joined this game partly because Io was obvious town, and I expect to be treated as such.

lol no... like massively no.

Not with those flips. Vedith was an excellent borderline policy lynch I would do again in an instant but with the scum flip it makes things interesting since those were the top wagons.

Need to reread a bit. Probably in AUN/Io but want to make sure.

I can see this coming from villa because usually villa first reaction to me declaring myself conftown is to push back even though it's NAI/towny for me.

The part about the policy lynch is a little scummy imo because it's already looking like you are subtly trying to give an excuse for your behavior on Vedith. nobody really brought it up, or gave you heat, so why are you already trying to rationalize it?

[Mulch]

How about Scorpios.
We can do a day where I pick the lynch, then you get to pick the lynch the next day?

You fake claim and have the gall to start lining up lynches?

VOTE: Vedith

This post in particular from Scorpious to rationalize the vote on vedith is really bad

[Mulch]

One of the main things I want us to do today is try and figure out the shit votes on Vedith with VedithVCarca. I'm getting the feeling that scum didn't vote Carca in this instance ,and even if they did that's a problem for lategame

[awesomeusername]

I feel like the Carca flip more or less clears Llama, which is good because I didn't townread him before. Also notable: Llama's logic about Scorpious in 612 holds, so I'm inclined to think he's town as well. This leaves me leaning town on everyone. :/ My weakest tier of town reads has Scorpious, alban, and Why Mafia, so I guess I'll start here.

@WM: I would also like to know why you town-read me, especially after these flips.

@Mulch: What do you think of Scorpious's reaction to Vedith's claim?

I agree that we should be looking at the wagons yesterday. IMO the worst ones on Vedith were WhyMafia's and Scorpious's, just in terms of lame reasoning/sheeping, and none of the votes on Carca ping me except for maybe Why Mafia again. But that doesn't particularly feel like a bus, although I guess I could see it. The RVS vote on Vedith from alban is just... I don't even know what to make of that. He was pretty upset after Vedith got lynched, which felt genuine to me. Io's was a strange interaction too, but I thought the rage quit was kinda town. I might be confbiasing there, though. Llama I felt was the driving force behind the Vedith lynch, although I also feel that he helped catch Carca? Like at one point I was scum reading Llama for attacking Carca badly, which doesn't make any sense if they're both scum.

[Mulch]

I feel like the Carca flip more or less clears Llama, which is good because I didn't townread him before. Also notable: Llama's logic about Scorpious in 612 holds, so I'm inclined to think he's town as well. This leaves me leaning town on everyone. :/ My weakest tier of town reads has Scorpious, alban, and Why Mafia, so I guess I'll start here.

@WM: I would also like to know why you town-read me, especially after these flips.

@Mulch: What do you think of Scorpious's reaction to Vedith's claim?

I agree that we should be looking at the wagons yesterday. IMO the worst ones on Vedith were WhyMafia's and Scorpious's, just in terms of lame reasoning/sheeping, and none of the votes on Carca ping me except for maybe Why Mafia again. But that doesn't particularly feel like a bus, although I guess I could see it. The RVS vote on Vedith from alban is just... I don't even know what to make of that. He was pretty upset after Vedith got lynched, which felt genuine to me. Io's was a strange interaction too, but I thought the rage quit was kinda town. I might be confbiasing there, though.

Llama I felt was the driving force behind the Vedith lynch, although I also feel that he helped catch Carca? Like at one point I was scum reading Llama for attacking Carca badly, which doesn't make any sense if they're both scum.

First, I would like to ask why you are clearing llama? I don't get it there. I thought his heding was atrocious, both in that post and especially in 714, and really typical of scum in TvS wagons. I sort of liked his tone and his thought process otherwise in the game though, but why are you clearing llama for the scummiest thing imo they have done in the game?

Can you point me to the reaction from Scorpious- I just know that his vote was horrible, I don't remember the reaction.


I am townreading the bolded part. I think that it would take guts and is unlikely for carca!scumbuddy to say nonchalantly that they were scumreading Llama for attacking Carca.

One thing I would be wary of is townreading Llama for "catching" carca when they didn't push him in the first place. Again, it's near level one scum to scumread your partner and the other person but push the other and just let your partner be.

[Mulch]

In terms of WhyMafia, I think I have a pretty solid grasp on his meta. It would shock me if he flipped scum.

[Mulch]

Something about my behaviour as scum and town.
People who have played with me know this: I am a very proactive town, and a very laidback scum. Partial reason for this is coz I guess I am a transparent person irl, and my laidback game as a scum is to overcompensate the guilt and fear of getting caught. I try extra hard to not get in arguments, make excessive statements, or even try to take the game fwd.
As opposed to what Io and what a lot of other players say regarding maintaining a more even game, I have not done that coz I don't have and care for that sort of long-term vision for the game. I have more immediate concerns in a game as a town. And they are usually apparent in the way I wanna take charge and take the game fwd. I definitely don't have logical skills that help me see through, hence I rely a lot on my instinct, and they are usually not wrong. But then once the instinct tells something, I try to dissect that instinct and see if that stands the test of logic. And if it does, I go ahead with my suspicion in the form of a vote. There are certain games of me as a town which are exception to that. Where I begin as what I described, but then somewhere in the middle either I lose my interest, or I lose my centre and get confused. But the only way it works for me is if I proceed with my own reads and ways of playing the game rather than emulating someone else or going with the majority.

This post from Alban is pretty towny, but I'm struggling to find other towny things in his entire ISO. I see reads list and mechanics talk but not a lot of solving, and some of the conclusions he maks read fake.

[Mulch]

@alban: Why are you sure he's town? And what are your thoughts on Carca?

There was a substantial overlap between his reads and mine.
His tone appeared the most natural.
His claim was obviously a joke.
Plus, a scum would confuse people, not clear them up, even as a joke. Even if they give tr on a few people, clearing 3 people at once, especially in the early D1 stage is less likely to be scum.
But no, I can't be sure. For the town's sake, let's hope I am wrong.

This stuff in particular is really bad. "His tone appeared most natural" is something that is valid but also something that is REALLY easy for scum to fake. Same with reads overlapping, it's a crappy, scummy reason to townread someone, same as all the other points.

[awesomeusername]

Llama made the most compelling case on Carca, if I recall. I think most everyone else on the wagon except for Steel, whose reasons I don't recall, either sheeped that case or was just like "Carca is scummy." I mean 590 was Llama's strongest case on Carca, and then 591 and 592 were both votes towards Carca. Although to be fair, Tchill was scumreading her before that.

Where do you see hedging in his Carca-case? I don't remember getting that vibe.

Also re: Why Mafia, noted.

PEdit: Yeah, agree that those first two reasons are fakeable.

[Mulch]

To your first point- I noticed that they made the big case, which obviously looks good in retrospect, but I think it means little to none because they didn't back it up with a vote on them at the end. In fact, it makes it look almost in a negative light that they felt so strongly but were still willing to policy lynch Vedith over a theoretical strong scumread.

Let me pull up the hedging.

[alban]

I'm still convinced Alban is scum

Reasons

[Mulch]

Spoiler:

When I'm scum I usually just focus on when someone mentions me or my scumpartner, and not care about the rest of the game. ^

self

Quick question - is Self-meta a scumtell to you?

I can see scum using it more than town.

I still prefer Vedith but have increasingly no problem with Carcalilly lynch happening. What they have done this game almost perfectly describes their scum self-meta.

Both Vedith and Carcalillly are just different types of scummy.

Vedith is the "intentionally useless - adding clutter" type scum, who has done next to nothing but when they do actually start trying to play are really scummy for the most part, but with the amount of spam they add can essentially shrug off anything as a joke.

Carcalilly just seems to be detached from the game while still adding the "joking around" excuse to most of their stuff. For example they are voting alban, who apparently they thought was scum until the "fake claim" where they moved away and then forgot about moving away... and now two thirds of the way through day one are ready to "start taking things seriously".

Still think that Vedith is a slightly better lynch. Basically all they have done that shows any type of read is the joke claim, where they called a few played "confirmed town" and opened up a lynch pool without any sort of reasoning and followed through with it for enough time that it cant have been a joke that they were his scum reads. Trying to say things like "just trust me" and other statements along those lines do nothing to explain a read and at most can be reaction tests on others (but I somehow doubt there was that level of intent even if he is town). While I think most players would immediately see the claim as a joke, the fact that it was continued for so long still bothers me as there are a lot of newer players who might not be able to piece that together immediately.

Now he comes in with the Carcalilly vote late, when he basically ignored the role until I showed up and voted Vedith. First mention of them being scum since literally joke phases of the game, with no reason. It takes me starting to come down on Carcalilly before the vote shows up there.

@Carcalilly - Vedith read?
@alban - You haven't moved your vote in a long time. Still happy with it?
@MM - You aren't voting either major wagon. Basic thoughts on both?

Few other thoughts:

If Vedith or any of the players he notes as "cleared" are scum, I think Scorpious gains town points for recent posts.
One thing that is REALLY bugging me is that a lot of players seem to assume three scum. In 11P games it is very rare for there to be more than two scum. If we get to a F3 at any point, someone go back and read early thoughts to see who was implying three scum and give minor town/scum points accordingly.

So can we really just lynch Vedith? I somewhat trust that regardless of alignment Carcalilly will eventually produce some sort of reads and tells, Vedith is just backed into a corner and spouting WIFOM and trolling. What is the absolute best case with respect to Vedith here? Town that cant be trusted to contribute or make a pro-town move in the future?

Also, I initially didn't like Llama's statement about Scorpious either, but it's actually really smart - if Scorpious is scum with Vedith or one of Vedith's "clears," he knows for sure that the claim is a lie. And his posts really look like an inexperienced player who was caught off guard by the claim and feel for it. Does that make sense? That said, I agree that his play has been generally scummy.

Basically this. While I am not entirely sure if it was faked or not, scum would instantly know something is up if any of those four players is scum. If the exceedingly off chance that all are town though, while they may not know the correct approach moving forward they would know that something is wrong. Its a whole lot of WIFOM though as you have to start getting into theory of if players could intentionally present an ignorant approach to setup when they have additional information. Its basically a weaker version of the "player who forgets the open setup is town" tell.

It of course IS possible for it to be an 8:3 setup, but for that to happen you would need a very weak scum team and a stacked town. In the end you can balance it, but you are going to have a very swingy setup and its just not recommended.

Contains the stuff that's sort of giving like "here is some arguements for Vedith, here is for Carc" etc, and combined with the fact that they made that case on Carc and then ended up voting Vedith is bad.

[alban]

Mulch, have you read D1? Or your reads are based off VCA?