Mini Normal 1929 - Game Over

[Mulch]

I mean obviously it's super hard to townread Llama and to not OMGUS them immediately when they make an hour long post on me, have been locked on me scum since day 1, haven't read my posts, and have confirmation bias up the wazoo, but unfortuantely some players are like that.

Yes, I think Llama is most likely misguided town.

[Mulch]

This is all assuming one scum obviously but I think it's in you and Alban with offchances of Llama and Scorpy

[Steel]

I was going to post but now I have to catch up again. :/

I am simultaneously pretty convinced by Llama's case, and agree with Steel that there's not enough back and forth in his reads. At this point I'm like 85% that one of Mulch and Llama is scum.

I don't understand how you got to this point when you said the flip had cleared llama just earlier and from Io being one of your strongest townreads day 1.

[LlamaFluff]

FYI that is not how real scumreads shoudl form, which is probably why you are failing in it so far. You should look at people and see scumyness and then scumread them, not scumread them and make cases afterwards...

1) You read posts
2) You think "Player X looks like scum"
3) You say so and vote the player with the reasons
4) They respond (or in some cases don't)
5) You reevaluate

Need to get stuff done but after what I can try to figure out from all the broken quote tags, I like my vote even more.

I mean obviously it's super hard to townread Llama and to not OMGUS them immediately when they make an hour long post on me, have been locked on me scum since day 1, haven't read my posts, and have confirmation bias up the wazoo, but unfortuantely some players are like that.

I don't even...

I explicitly called Io town for just about all of day one. I called Vedith, AUN and Caralilly scum. Today I said AUN is still a good scum pick, but due to flips you are better (lynching both probably ends the game). How is anything you are saying here true?

[Mulch]

Spoiler:

That self meta tho

You know, while I don't really like it when people self meta what's the point of this?
I don't really see it as a scum tell which is what I think you are implying because I know there are people out their who genuinely believe that giving self meta can clear them as town.

That self meta tho

You know, while I don't really like it when people self meta what's the point of this?
I don't really see it as a scum tell which is what I think you are implying because I know there are people out their who genuinely believe that giving self meta can clear them as town.

I'd vote him if I thought it was a that dire of a scumtell
I'm just stating the obvious

Fair enough.

I panicked slightly seeing the 3 pages thinking I missed something big, but no it was just a rather pointless back and forth.

Also

Desperado: Carcalilly

You can't get me if I get you first!

Doesn't that just force a 1v1 we can only lynch one of you?

I'm liking Steel as town with the recent posts of him though, wasn't quite sure at first but I feel he is putting in effort to look into people.
Same goes for Carca. They've been consistent with the MM4 push and are making a case against them. Which is more than I can say for MM4 who I feel is just lacking especially after I reviewed Carca's reasoning for leaning scum on him.
VOTE: MM4

Also because I noticed Steel brought it up again and Carca had mentioned it back in post 156 this is an 11 player game and not 13. 13 I've seen with 3 to 4 scum but as far as I can tell from looking over the archived normal games I have not seen an 11 player game with 3 scum like Steel pointed out it's always 2 scum.

res

VOTE: Io

Take that!
I've now invalidated whatever this vote count is going to be.

VOTE: io

Self voting is bad

I'll vote whoever I want to vote.
Maybe I didn't want to live.

For reference above here are all the control F Carca in IO ISO. There's nothing exciting here but nothing really super obvious that I feel like would incriminate me hugely.


On the other hand here is something that I actually think spews IO town, here:

Spoiler:

res

VOTE: Io

Take that!
I've now invalidated whatever this vote count is going to be.

VOTE: io

Self voting is bad

UNVOTE:

I remember playing with Io. She will give long winding explanations about game mechanics and why and who is scum. I believe (but not sure) that she is logical, terse and concise when town.

Well thank you for calling me logical, but I don't really know if I would fall myself concise, I will make large posts if I need to get a point across.
Also I think the game mechanic talk was unique to that game if I recall because people weren't quite understanding them.

Frankly, I'm not really sure what the point in going over how people typically play helps. Like for example, I try to keep consistent play across whatever alignment I am and I'm pretty sure most people do that as to avoid scum slipping every time they are scum due to their meta.
Plus, the rules forbid Trust Tells and going over people's meta as town vs scum seems to be encroaching on breaking that rule.
Reguardless I've only played a full game with Alban, and maybe LUV and I am Innocent but I don't remember those games. Alban I remember does this kind of thing in all games if not most that I've played with him where he wants to talk about people's behavior.

Town

UNVOTE:

I remember playing with Io. She will give long winding explanations about game mechanics and why and who is scum. I believe (but not sure) that she is logical, terse and concise when town.

Well thank you for calling me logical, but I don't really know if I would fall myself concise, I will make large posts if I need to get a point across.
Also I think the game mechanic talk was unique to that game if I recall because people weren't quite understanding them.

Frankly, I'm not really sure what the point in going over how people typically play helps. Like for example, I try to keep consistent play across whatever alignment I am and I'm pretty sure most people do that as to avoid scum slipping every time they are scum due to their meta.
Plus, the rules forbid Trust Tells and going over people's meta as town vs scum seems to be encroaching on breaking that rule.
Reguardless I've only played a full game with Alban, and maybe LUV and I am Innocent but I don't remember those games. Alban I remember does this kind of thing in all games if not most that I've played with him where he wants to talk about people's behavior.

Town

Reasons?

To me they seem honest and open.

Here are two things. 1: An obvious pocketing attempt from Carca to IO. partners arent dumb enough to call each other town openly with a shit reason, this is carca trying to get IO on their side. 2: A shit push from Carca onto IO for self voting which is not a scumtell and is exactly the type of level one shit that scum like to do without actually solving to try and get a scumread.

[Mulch]

FYI that is not how real scumreads shoudl form, which is probably why you are failing in it so far. You should look at people and see scumyness and then scumread them, not scumread them and make cases afterwards...

1) You read posts
2) You think "Player X looks like scum"
3) You say so and vote the player with the reasons
4) They respond (or in some cases don't)
5) You reevaluate

Need to get stuff done but after what I can try to figure out from all the broken quote tags, I like my vote even more.

I mean obviously it's super hard to townread Llama and to not OMGUS them immediately when they make an hour long post on me, have been locked on me scum since day 1, haven't read my posts, and have confirmation bias up the wazoo, but unfortuantely some players are like that.

I don't even...

I explicitly called Io town for just about all of day one. I called Vedith, AUN and Caralilly scum. Today I said AUN is still a good scum pick, but due to flips you are better (lynching both probably ends the game). How is anything you are saying here true?

Listen dumbass. Theres a 6/7 chance right now your town. You are tunneling me for no reason without any reconsideration because of idiotic spew and when I try and explain my reasoning and my motiviation and try to maybe explain some of the spew you refuse to listen and you "like your vote even more." This is ridiculous. The tunnel visiona nd confirmation bias is NOT reevaluating when you are wrong. You are WRONG here. I am TOWN. Wrap your fucking head around this fact beacuse you are going to figure this out sooner or later. You are so voncinced I am scum that you think everything I say is untrue when it is also true and you are so convinced I am scum you are reading everything I sayin a shitty light and are convinced you have found the holy grail of scum off of idiotic stuff like self meta.

RE EVELUATE YOURSELF. ACTUALLY READ MY POSTS

You are having tunnel vision and it's a PROBLEM with you that your going to have to fix in the future, and what is worse is that if you succesfully pull of a lynch on me it's going to look so much worse and like a shitty scum tunnel that even if your town were probably going to lose the game anyway.

On a separate note, probably the reason your wrong is because you look at someone, say OOH THEY ARE SCUM and then start FABRICATING reads to support this (cases). That is NOT what people do. That's what scum do and this probably supports your scumgame cause your meta supports it when
you are town. You look at posts, say hey these are scummy and THEN scumread, not the other way around.

What is more, BECAUSE I HAVE A DIFFERENT APPROACH TO SCUMREADING THAN YOu is NOT a fucking valid reason to scumread anyone in the first place.

MAN UP AND ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG

[Mulch]

I've seen this before. I've been here. I play like this as town. You think someone is scum and just cant be convinced they are wrong, to the extent that you are SCUMREADING me for having a different mentality than you and for POINTING OUT YOU HVAE CONFIRMATION BIAS which even if I WAS scum you would fucking have LMAO. You are saying I'm scum and figuring out reasons why. It's WRONG.

[Mulch]

I was going to post but now I have to catch up again. :/

I am simultaneously pretty convinced by Llama's case, and agree with Steel that there's not enough back and forth in his reads. At this point I'm like 85% that one of Mulch and Llama is scum.

I don't understand how you got to this point when you said the flip had cleared llama just earlier and from Io being one of your strongest townreads day 1.

Vote him dude

[Mulch]

Do you know how much self control it's taking not to snapvote you right now Llama for your idiocy, especially considering my personality? A LOT. But I'm mature and man enough to realize that town can make mistakes, and will not be locked into a thing and I can RE EVEALUATE (which btw is a towny thing to do).

[awesomeusername]

@Mulch: I mean that's not the only reason I'm suspicious of Llama. I just brought it up because Steel mentioned it and I agreed.

In 973, am I the person that you're saying is misrepping?

@Steel: Mulch convinced me otherwise with the Llama clear. And my read on Io was one those reads that I looked back on and realized was probably stronger than it should have been. Also, as I said, Llama's case is kinda convincing? It probably helps that I had been thinking about the possibility of Mulch-scum when he posted it. But yeah, you're right, that number's probably too high.

[Mulch]

@Mulch: I mean that's not the only reason I'm suspicious of Llama. I just brought it up because Steel mentioned it and I agreed.

In 973, am I the person that you're saying is misrepping?

@Steel: Mulch convinced me otherwise with the Llama clear. And my read on Io was one those reads that I looked back on and realized was probably stronger than it should have been. Also, as I said, Llama's case is kinda convincing? It probably helps that I had been thinking about the possibility of Mulch-scum when he posted it. But yeah, you're right, that number's probably too high.

Yes it is. Why the fuck are you assuming that Llama and I are TvS when we are most likely town v town when all is said and done?

Can you go through what exactly is convincing? The only fucking thing that I have seen Llama say that is convincing is the thing that they hadn't even brought UP then which is when IO said that Carcaand Vedith were towntown or scumscum which is actually incriminating. I want to see your thought process here.

[Mulch]

I mean you know it's confirmation bias when they are scumreading you for having a different mentality in scumreading than them. That's just insane.

[WhyMafia]

Nah don't worry, I'm convinced llama is town
@llama don't worry either, your case has been noted. At the current standing in the game, I think I would rather keep mulch alive. Obviously will re-evaluate every day phase. For now, I'm still shakily believing mulch to be town, as well as you.

On looking at Awesome's posts, they're scummy af. However, my gut is screaming town :-:
Like contradictions don't equate to scum (although they mostly do) and the way his thoughts are scrambled, I see a resemblance to my early days in mafia

[Mulch]

Whymafia my two hesitations with Llama town are the aforementioned vote heding and also the fact that they are scarily reminiscent to me when I am scum lmao with the tunneling. Do you see it? And I am even townreading my attacker like everyone did to me in the game lol

[Mulch]

Whymaf it's not the contradictions it's his motiviation, specifically edging Llama and us into a lock battle of "one of us is scum" which I'm SURE the fucking llama is grazing up like a food they need

[WhyMafia]

I kinda can see where you and steel are going, but I have heavier scum suspects rn
We're getting nowhere with all these directions
We have potential lynches on Llama, you, awesome, alban, and previously scorpius
While any of these aforementioned could be scum, I'm leaning towards keeping them alive for more matieral to sort with. I'm most confident in alban tho, which is why I'm going for him

[WhyMafia]

Whymaf it's not the contradictions it's his motiviation, specifically edging Llama and us into a lock battle of "one of us is scum" which I'm SURE the fucking llama is grazing up like a food they need

But why can't that come from town? People behave irrationally/post stuff like that sometimes
IDK it's just that he's reminding me of myself and how I get mis-lynched a lot due to stuff like that

[Mulch]

Right now here are my town rankings

[Mulch]

1. Mulch
2. Steel
3. Whymafia
4. Mario
5. Llama
6. Scorpious
7. Alban
8. Awesome

[LlamaFluff]

Its just the hypocritical stuff like this:

Awesome had absolute shit hedging at the end and their tone is fake as fuck

I sort of liked his tone and his thought process otherwise in the game though

"His tone appeared most natural" is something that is valid but also something that is REALLY easy for scum to fake.

Calls AUN scum for tone. Calls me townish for town. Then says calling a player town for tone is dumb because its easy to fake.

Tells only apply when he wants them to, and never to him.

Also even if Mario didn't vote Carcalilly... how is the only player that she ever voted that seemed to be serious apart from sheeping me late going to be scum? That alone makes Mario most town in the game to me. I don't see scum being silent on reads apart from calling their partner scum up until the day is essentially over.

You also need to re-check your Ctrl+F. There are a few posts near the end where Io started getting into "I would only vote Carcalilly if Vedith was scum" and then a snap turn from "voting Vedith over the claim is bad" to "he is cluttering the game and needs to be lynched"

[Mulch]

Llama. What do you not understand. About tone being a valid way to read people but also something really easy for scum to fake? I don't understand why this can't go through your brain.

I am not calling someone scum for tone, I might call someone scum for tone reads only, but I would never call someone scum for just making tone reads. Nor should you.

Again: I have never scumread someone for making a tone read. It all involves more.

Mario I have townread just like you? Where is the contention here?

What do you think about the obvious pocketing? How do you not see that?

Can you point me to the stuff at the end

[awesomeusername]

@Mulch's 985 (will get to anything else later):

Eh, I was going to quote Llama's post and give you point-by-point which I agreed with and which I didn't (I can still do that if you want), but I don't feel that would be representative of my thoughts because honestly I hadn't read it super thoroughly, just nodded along with some of the points, which I thought was interesting because he's one of my suspects. I agree with his 1) that you seem really self-aware (didn't you call WM out for that a couple of pages ago?), and that that's a minor scumtell, but disagree with 2) because I don't see your indecision thus far as scummy, more just trying to gather information before deciding, and I don't remember you basing anything on tone. Although actually, in retrospect, I suppose you could be waiting to see which wagon takes off, but meh, didn't really get that vibe.

The Io stuff was more convincing on my first read through. :/ I definitely didn't agree with Io's logic on Carca being scum only if Vedith is, and now that it's been pointed out, that is a suspicious conclusion to come to with some questionable logic. And the scum-team makes sense otherwise - Io focusing on Vedith, Carca town reading Io. I guess it's also somewhat convincing what you pointed out that scum wouldn't townread each other without a good reason... not really sure I'm reading that interaction strongly either way. And the point about the MM4 vote, where Io didn't mention she was voting with Carca - that makes sense with them as a scum team. Self-meta is meh, I don't have enough experience to say either way.

Anyway, my train of thought was that your last paragraph of 956 stood out to me, because you said if you were scum you'd be "dominating town and be widely townread," and that's sorta what was happening up until then? (yes, you went on to clarify some differences) Then Llama made a big post pointing at you-scum, and I conf-biased a bit. Then I thought about the remaining suspects - other than you two, I think it's alban or Scorpious. And based on the goon flip, I agree with what someone said earlier (I think you?) that there are likely 3 mafia, so either I'm wrong about one of my harder town reads, both alban and Scorpious are maf, there are only two scum, or one of you two is scum. So I think it's likely that this is TvS because of PoE: you're two of my four suspects. There's also another reason I'd rather not say more on because it's PR spec.

In retrospect though, yeah, that number's definitely too high, because 1) there could be only two mafia total, 2) you're not really as big a scumread for me as the others. Since then, though, it has kinda rubbed me the wrong way that you keep insisting this is TvT? Like the wording of that is kind of weird as opposed to just saying you think Llama's town. I guess it makes based on your scum-case on me, though.

[Mulch]

I'm having trouble following that, but yeah, I think it's TvT at this point and that you were doming us (And feeding the llama).

I am self aware. If you want to consider that a scumtell, go ahead, but it's literally just that I am aware of how I look, and so are you all even if you all pretend you are perfect little townies that don't care if you are lynched, yes you are. The WhyMafia self awareness is scummy because it 1) Dosent fit his meta and 2) Is slimy and subtle

When I am scum I am always townread by everyone, I don't have to answer to idiocy like this because I Know how to get towncred. I am definitely not focused on that this game, and trust me I know how to make it look natural. Just believe me that I would be dominating if I was scum, and look at Large Normal 203 or Penguin's Mafia Redux if you don't believe me.

[Scorpious]

Just re-reading d1.

Alban, what was the purpose of 214?

Could you also explain to me why you go from not reading carcalilly as scum in 281,and promising reads,and not saying anything again until 281,then 390 where you are actually probing for reads and reasons.

It's not actually until 2 rl days later did you actually provide your reads.

Do you think a scum would gain any advantage to having extra time to get a feel for how others are reading the game?

[Mulch]

I do think it's interesting about if there is 3 scum then the entire game changes, and obviously Llama from my PoV gets a hell of a lot scummier.


Maybe it could be best to do a massclaim? By learning the state of the Pr's it makes it vulnerbale but we could also figure out if we have enough firepower to defeat 3 scum or if it's most likely 2