Normal 1934: Civilization Mafia Mafia (Endgame)

[Eddie Cane]

VOTE: vecna

full claim. also, note that vecna said the role is confirmable. probably something like fruit vendor.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I want to see this flip now. Either im completely wrong and Tchill is scum, or theres something fishy going on with Kort, monkey and massive.

Vecna, do you still believe this? Yes, I know you're voting Korts. Curious about the rest of it, and the nature of this "something fishy" that you see.

Let me try and explain my thought process to you - and hopefully it makes sense.

My initial suspicion was mainly on Monkey and Massive - as you noted yourself I was townreading Kort

Then the following happens; some more people express theyre also suspicious of Monkey, including Kort. I vote him, stating something along the lines of lets see where this goes, it seems there might be some good will to get this slot lynched.

Then Kort pops in, suddenly states he is feeling better about Monkey, and starts attacking me for voting Monkey. Note, at this time im also actively trying to stop the Tchill wagon from going through.

Now in my mind, this is fishy for a number of things; Kort decides to a; go back on his earlier read while it -might- be getting traction (this never happened though) - and b: attack the one person that is trying to turn his wagon on Tchill (whom claimed PR soon after) onto monkey. As I stated before, this could very well (and that is what I did) be interpreted as someone early soft-bussing their teammate, doing some distancing from it - but being unwilling to see him lynched day1. I felt he had some pretty strong criticisms levelled at monkey to suddenly let go of them so easily. This was the reason why I did that silly talk about the triangle, because the way these guys interacted I felt there was no teamconnection there. And then, Kort went 180 on that read.

Then kort posts a reads-list, with his biggest townreads on people I really dont see as strong townreads myself whatsoever. He posts that weird detailled read on Massive, stating something strange as "Oh if he's scum were in soo much trouble, but luckily I dont think he is". Another bell goes off in my head.

The Dark horse thing/read he expressed also rang wrong for me as I just explained - allthough I was mostly wrong on this point.

His scumreads also felt totally opposite from my scumreads. A scumread on me I know to be wrong. A scumread on Assemble, basically for lurking (which he does in every game), and a scumread on you - which I also do not agree with.

All in all my suspicions are indeed strong. I dont feel the same as kort anymore about a great many things. I could see a bunch of these things come from town, but they are also all very well explained by a very carefull and elaborate scum player.

This is the one thing causing me anxiety about my vote at this point, because I happen to agree with his assessment of Korts and Monkey. I don't know if I agree about massive though.

[humaneatingmonkey]

So Sunlit, you're saying one of Korts and I are scum. Since I already know my alignment (town, omg LAMIST!), what about Korts is scummy?

[Sunlit Diamond]

I tentatively believe you both are scum, actually. I'll get to the why when my kiddo is napping.

The question for me is whether that overrides my opinion of Vecna. It occurs to me that his comments felt hollow because he is a PR trying to stir up dust without drawing too much attention to himself.

[Sunlit Diamond]

That said, that wouldn't answer why he claimed before he was even in real danger. He's been around long enough to know better? But then, he's also been around long enough to know about stating L-1, as well. Ugh.

Vecna, get back here and talk to me!

[Vecna]

Vecna, you have yet to even get L-1, let alone get intent to hammer. Why did you jump the PR claim gun?

I was at L-1

[humaneatingmonkey]

No wait wait wait wait so why did you think Vecna's assessment was right when his assessment was that Korts and I are mutually exclusively scum?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Oh my god you're scum too aren't you

[Vecna]

And when I voted Tchill, I did not put him at L-1. Thats why I was confused about why people were asking that I had to announce whatever. Yes I am aware that it is common courtesy that people should state such. Note however, that when I was put on L1 it wasnt stated either, This happened twice now. noone seems to give a shit about that though. Even when its done by a guy that could swear I was town pretty much on the last page and in nearly all of his posts.

Anyways im a Jailkeeper. I intended to jailkeep Tchill tonight hoping to confirm us both and save him from a kill, at the expense of him being able to shoot someone. Getting a bunch of negative attention towards myself was partially intended so scum would choose to kill Tchill, but clearly being forced to claim was not, since the plan is shot to shit now regardless.

[Korts]

If you jailkeep Tchill, how will that confirm either of you? At best, you confirm to Tchill that you can roleblock him. From the rest of our perspectives, that just means that nothing happens. I don't buy any of your performance for the last three pages.

Would you like me to respond to any particular point you made, Vecna? Otherwise, I don't feel like dignifying your bullshit flailing with any analysis.

[Sunlit Diamond]

No wait wait wait wait so why did you think Vecna's assessment was right when his assessment was that Korts and I are mutually exclusively scum?

Except that he didn't. Reread that last post of his.

He originally did, and then he changed his mind.

[Vecna]

Imagine that I hadnt claimed....who is scum going to kill? Vecna under pressure, or a claimed gunsmith? Or someone random?

Pretty unlikely they kill outside of the PR's right?

Either Tchill is town, and he was a rather likely NK....which would confirm both of us to be town, and me to have saved him and roleblocked him.

Or he is scum, and he'd only claim Vig if they actually do have a way to have a second nightkill. Having him claim that he shot someone and that it went through would out his lie in that case. Also if someone else on their team happens to be an extra killing role (not sure how likely that is in these sort of setups) then it also outs him as a lyar.

When I was forced to claim I had to do it in such a way to both try to save myself and still hope Tchill was a likely kill if he's telling the truth.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Vecna, you have yet to even get L-1, let alone get intent to hammer. Why did you jump the PR claim gun?

I was at L-1

I tracked votes, and you'd not gone above 5 when you first said you were a PR.

[Korts]

Or he is scum, and he'd only claim Vig if they actually do have a way to have a second nightkill. Having him claim that he shot someone and that it went through would out his lie in that case. Also if someone else on their team happens to be an extra killing role (not sure how likely that is in these sort of setups) then it also outs him as a lyar.

That's not how scum kills tend to work. I doubt there is a designated killer, just a group kill that can be executed by anyone. I don't think I've ever seen a scum team with only one player who can kill.

[Vecna]

Seems youre right, guess the unvoting and revoting going on mustve messed up my count. At any rate, it doesnt matter anymore since people seem intent on lynching me regardless what I say at this point.

[Vecna]

My point was that fakeclaiming a vig as scum would be a pretty decent option if you have a role that has a one-shot kill besides the nightkill, which you could even use as a fakeclaim if someone else on your team has such a role. Its a pretty far-fetched option ofcourse, but you'd need to have at least some sort of way to produce a second nightkill if fake-claiming townvig.

[Vecna]

So....who o who is gonna have the balls to mishammer the PR.

[Eddie Cane]

all that does is prevent t chill from being conf town... and it's not confirmable...

VOTE: monkey

[Vecna]

So youre saying if theres 2 kills and Tchill is jailed it wouldnt confirm him as scum?

[Eddie Cane]

but that's assuming there's another vig... and if there is they'll just vig t chill tonight... and it would confirm YOU as scum sooner than t chill considering there's no word where a vig doesn't cc via claim or bullet

[Vecna]

Arent scum-(1shot) vigs ever a thing outside of theme games?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Er... You would put totally at definite risk for a night kill on the vague chance that there might be a scum 1-shot vig?

That's.... Even if you're town, that's terrible.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Er... You would put totally at definite risk for a night kill on the vague chance that there might be a scum 1-shot vig?

That's.... Even if you're town, that's terrible.

*Yourself, not totally. Autocorrect.

[Vecna]

No I wouldnt, thats why I claimed blank the way I did for as long as I could

[Grendel]

I haven't read past my last post on 23, or any of 24, but I saw that Vecna has cliam jk skiming this page.

I don't think lynching in the pr claims D1 is a good idea. I also don't think jailing the vig is a good idea. I'll look more at when/how Vecna claimed but most likely I'll be advocating a different lynch.

@Vecna

If you are that concerned about Scum fake claiming vig you should be pushing to get Tchill leashed for the reminder of the game, not threating to block him.